Spirit of Steel: The Crusader's Handbook [WIP] [Archive]

View Full Version : Spirit of Steel: The Crusader's Handbook [WIP]

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:48 PM

Spirit of Steel: The Crusader’s Handbook [WIP]
This is currently under construction, and will be fleshed out more as I gain more information.
If you want to toss in your two cents, feel free to shoot me a PM.

http://images.gfxartist.com/images/PicOfTheDayItem/full/504.jpg

Faith is not belief. Belief is passive. Faith is active.
- Edith Hamilton

Why Play a Crusader?

-You get a d10 hit die and full BAB. Not quite as good as a Warblade, but still great.

-Maneuvers refresh automatically, so you always have a tool at hand to use.

-The Crusader-only Devoted Spirit discipline is quite powerful.

-Crusaders, unlike Fighters, have more than one way to use the action economy. Since maneuvers can be used as standard, swift, and immediate actions, you can pull many tricks out of your hat each round.

Why Use Tome of Battle?

Blatanly stolen from Elfin. Credit goes to him

There are endless cycles of debate about Tome of Battle: why it sucks, why it’s great, why the fluff is awful, whether it’s balanced, etcetera. Naturally, opinions vary widely, but I’ve found that Tome of Battle greatly enriches the playing experience at my table, mainly for two reasons:

- It makes melee fun to play. Some people enjoy endlessly repeating their full attack routine; many want something more. And Tome of Battle provides you with lots more options and tactics, which include the ability to make decisions more meaningful than how much you’ll Power Attack for this turn.

- It levels the playing field. Around here it’s an oft-recited saying that ‘fighters scale linearly, wizards scale quadratically’. Tome of Battle by no means closes that gap, but it unquestionably narrows it.

The following ranking system will be used:

Red: Bad. Stay away from these.
Green: Situational. Mostly bad, with notable exceptions.
Black: Neutral. There are better options, but you could do worse.
Blue: Good. This is where things start getting awesome. Almost always a solid option.
Gold: Amazing. The best of the best. If you don’t take this, you need a good reason.

Change Log:

12/30/10: Handbook posted.
12/31/10: Fixed some typos, and reevaluated some options based on feedback.
1/16/11: Added all maneuvers and up to 3rd level stances.

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:50 PM

Roles: Devotion to a Cause

Primary Melee: Your maneuvers and BAB give you some really powerful melee strength. Use this to your advantage.

Tank: This is what you do. Your class features are built for this, your disciplines support this, and your build should reflect this.

Battlefield Control: Really, your ability to do this is what makes you tank so well. Restriction of movement is the name of your game. You can effectively lock enemies in place, allowing you to absorb all of their blows.

Ranged Combat: No. Just… no. Your maneuvers don’t work at a range, and you can’t tank very well from 80 ft. away. Keep a composite longbow just in case, but don’t expect it to be any good.

Class Features: Devotion’s Power

Fundamentals:

Full Base Attack Bonus: This is always good for a melee class. The fourth iterative attack and a higher chance to hit are always good to have.

d10 Hit Die: Good, but not fantastic. As the tanking class, you could do with a bit more, but this will do.

Good Fortitude Save: Every melee class gets this, but not every melee class gets Mettle. This is more useful than normal for you.

Bad Reflex and Will Saves: This is where things get bad. Unlike a Warblade, you have almost no way to compensate for these low saves, so you should try to do what you can to help them.

4 Skill Points/Level: Actually pretty good, seeing as not many skills need investment for a Crusader.

Class Features:

Maneuvers: These are, quite simply, the main draw of the Crusader class. The disciplines available to you are Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven. Devoted Spirit and White Raven are two of the best disciplines in the Tome of Battle (along with Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, IMO). These are your real class features.

Stances: With such gems as Iron Guard’s Glare, Thicket of Blades, and Aura of _____, you don’t even need more than four. These are brilliant.

Steely Resolve: At low levels, this can be good for squeezing out that one more turn of action before unconsciousness. At later levels, this can be used with Stone Power to act like DR 10/-. Useful, but it doesn’t scale well enough for my taste.

Furious Counterstrike: A small bonus never hurt, especially when it stacks with a magic weapon. It can help you fuel Stone Power or Power Attack, but it has similar scaling problems as Steely Resolve.

Indomitable Soul: With this, you can safely dump Wisdom without completely tanking your Will save. The fact that you use Charisma for Smite and the save DC for a few maneuvers, as well as Diplomacy and Intimidate, makes this actually fairly useful. The later Mettle ability is icing on the cake.

Zealous Surge: Save rerolls are few and far between, and at the very least you can negate a natural 1 once every day. Uses per day limitation is the only thing keeping this from being blue.

Smite: This suffers from a massive use/day limitation. It has the same problem as the Paladin’s Smite Evil, only more so. Not that great, but the extra damage can still be good when you get it.

Die Hard: This feat is effectively an extra 10 HP, and you don’t need Endurance to snag it. Not bad at all.

Mettle: This is nice. This is very nice. You should be passing all of those Fortitude saves anyway, so this makes you effectively immune to a number of spells.

Skills: When Violence is not the Answer

Class Skills:

Balance: If you have the skill points to spare enough to get 5 ranks, do it immediately. Not being caught off guard by a Grease spell is fantastic. Also the discipline skill for Stone Dragon.

Concentration: If you go into Eternal Blade, or otherwise gain access to Diamond Mind, this is a must. Otherwise, it’s not that great.

Craft: Leave crafting to the NPCs. You have few enough skill points as it is.

Diplomacy: The discipline skill for White Raven is also one of the most broken skills in 3.5. If you have the points, they go in here.

Intimidate: The discipline skill for Devoted Spirit, as well as one of the more useful skills in general. The Fearsome armor enhancement from Drow of the Underdark is of particular use here.

Jump: Without access to Tiger Claw, this doesn’t see enough use for a worthwhile investment.

Knowledge (History): I can’t recall the last time I’ve ever needed a Knowledge (History) check for anything. Still, if you have a story-heavy DM, you might want a few ranks.

Knowledge (Religion): As one of the more common knowledges, this is worth a few points if you can spare them.

Martial Lore: Not really one of the things you need to know unless you’re in an initiator-heavy campaign. You can pass on this without much consequence.

Ride: Obviously, if you’re mounted, you need this, and if you aren’t, you don’t.

Cross-Class Skills:

Spot, Listen, and Search are always worth a few points, if you have them.

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:51 PM

Abilities: The Divine Spark

Strength: This is your melee stat. It affects attack rolls, damage rolls, and a few skill checks. You need this to be high.
Recommended Score: 16-18 before adjustments

Dexterity: You want a positive bonus, but you might not have the points to spare to make it too high. Mostly, you would want this to help your Reflex save and for attacks of opportunity. Not a high priority, but nice if you can spare it.
Recommended Score: 10-12 before adjustments

Constitution: You are a tank with a d10 hit die. You need all the HP you can get. In addition, your Fort save can never be high enough, especially once you get Mettle.
Recommended Score: 14-16 before adjustments

Intelligence: All this really helps you with is skill points, which you have about enough of for your purposes. Avoid a penalty, but you don’t need it like a Warblade does.
Recommended Score: 10-12 before adjustments

Wisdom: Apart from a few cross-class skills, the only thing Wisdom does is help your Will save, which is boosted by your Charisma starting at level 2. You need a dump stat, and this is it.
Recommended Score: 8-10 before adjustments

Charisma: This stat helps with several skills, including the fabulous Diplomacy and Intimidate. It boosts your low Will save, thanks to Indomitable Soul. It determines the odd save DC for strikes. It gets added to your attack roll when you Smite. This is a good stat to keep around.
Recommended Score: 12-14 before adjustments

Sample Stat Arrays

Elite Array: 15 12 14 10 8 13
25 Point Buy: 16 11 14 10 8 12
28 Point Buy: 16 12 14 10 10 12
32 Point Buy: 16 14 14 10 10 14
40 Point Buy: 16 14 16 10 10 16
60 Point Buy: 18 16 18 14 10 16

Races: Chosen of the Cause

Core:

Human: As usual, humans are among the top choices for a race. Needless to say, the extra skill points and feat are amazing.

Dwarf: Dwarves actually make really good Crusaders. The +2 bonus on saves against spells is always useful, the extra Constitution is great, and the 20 ft. speed is pretty much negated since heavy armor is common for Crusaders. The Charisma hit hurts slightly, but it’s worth it for the other features.

Elves: There are several Elven subraces, which all will be considered. On a special note, Elves qualify for the Eternal Blade prestige class.

High Elf: Not a bad option, especially if your DM doesn’t like subraces. The Constitution penalty hurts a lot, but the class features of an Eternal Blade more than make up for it. If you’re playing a lockdown build, the Dexterity boost can also be quite useful.
Gray Elf: Strength and Constitution penalties. Run away. Run away fast.
Wild Elf: Probably the strongest choice of Elves, mostly due to the fact that it’s the only kind that doesn’t have a Constitution penalty. If I was an Elven crusader, this would be my pick.
Wood Elf: Strength and Dexterity boosts, Constitution and Intelligence penalties. Not the worst choice, but you really have to need the extra Strength to justify this.

Gnome: Yeah, Gnomes are a bad choice. The Strength penalty takes your damage down and negates the bonus to attack rolls from small size. The 20 ft. speed makes you move really slowly when you don heavy armor, and Gnomes, unlike Dwarves, don’t come with any way to work around this. Extra Constitution is nice, but it’s not that nice.
Draz74 pointed put that Gnomes can do mounted combat in small areas, a possibility that I neglected. If you're building a mounted combatant, these become a much stronger pick.

Half-Elf: They’re basically slightly worse humans. Fortunately, they can qualify for Eternal Blade without any stat adjustments, so they’re not a horrible choice.

Half-Orc: The Strength bonus is not worth it. The mental stat penalties are bad for you. Not the worst *coughGrayElfcough*, but not fantastic either. Only if you need the extra Strength.

Halfling: Strength penalty, the boost is to a non-priority stat, low speed in full plate, and all of the ways to get a character to run off of Dexterity are both feat intensive and not conducive to a Crusader’s fighting style. Skip these guys.

Reserved for non-core races and combat styles.

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:52 PM

Maneuvers: Divine Wrath

Choosing Disciplines

Crusaders have access to three disciplines: Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven. Access to only three different disciplines might seem like a handicap, but in reality, having access to three means that you can take maneuvers effectively from all of them, as opposed to cherry-picking maneuvers the way a Warblade might have to. Still, it’s always best to pick a specialty.

Devoted Spirit: This is a fantastic discipline. It is Crusader-only, barring prestige classes, but that’s obviously not a problem for you. The maneuvers center around tanking, from increasing your survivability to (wait for it) actually giving the enemy a reason to attack you! This is the holy grail of tanking, since it makes sure that the enemies actually have some incentive to not ignore you in favor of your less resilient allies. Always worth taking something from.

Stone Dragon: The general consensus is that this is the worst discipline in the Tome of Battle. That does not, however, mean it is bad. It’s merely overshadowed by other, better choices. It does have gems, including the always great Mountain Hammer line. Except for a few good options, though, this is mostly subpar.

White Raven: Another great discipline, White Raven focuses on working as part of a collective. As such, a good number of maneuvers depend on your allies for effectiveness. If you have a few beatsticks in the party, this is extremely powerful, but otherwise it loses its edge.
First Level

First level has the typical first level options. Some of them are worth keeping around, but a good number can be traded away later. My personal favorites are Charging Minotaur, Leading the Attack, and Douse the Flames.

Devoted Spirit:

Crusader’s Strike: At low levels, this maneuver can really boost your survivability, but a max of 1d6+5 ages fairly quickly. An awesome pick at low levels, but you’ll want to trade up to the newer models eventually.
Note: The opponent’s alignment can’t be a match to yours, or it won’t work. This doesn’t really come up very often.

Vanguard Strike: You hit an enemy, and your allies get a +4 on attacks against that enemy. This is really good. On something like attack rolls, a flat bonus never outlives its usefulness. Definitely worth picking up.
Stone Dragon:

Charging Minotaur: I don’t think I know of anything more fun than forcibly moving your opponents. Negating attacks of opportunity and the need to follow just make this maneuver sweeter. It ages eventually, but it’s hilarious until then.

Stone Bones: This is a great maneuver at level 1, but it becomes worse very quickly, and it interferes with Steely Resolve. You'll want to take it, but if you do, you’ll want to trade it away at level 4.
White Raven:

Douse the Flames: This strike never stops being useful. It can stop a lockdown build for a turn, help you bail out an ally, or just buy you some time to drink a potion or something. Always a nice choice.

Leading the Attack: This maneuver is good for all of the same reasons that Vanguard Strike is good, with the same bonus for the same effect. This also has the added bonus of helping you fill White Raven prerequisites, so Vanguard Strike should slide by unnoticed unless you need both of them for some reason.
Second Level:

There really aren’t many bad choices for this level, except maybe Foehammer, which is never worth taking over Mountain Hammer unless you’re going to be flying. You get your first counter this level, which can help the squishier people you hang around with. My favorites are Mountain Hammer,

Devoted Spirit:

Foehammer: While this is not a bad maneuver, it is made redundant by Mountain Hammer. Unless your campaign takes place underwater or in the air, you can give this one a miss.

Shield Block: Ahh, the first counter available to a Crusader. It’s worth taking at this level simply because it’s the only maneuver you can initiate as an immediate action. You won’t be getting swift action goodness for a couple of levels, so the action economy can be played efficiently. For dedicated shield bashers, shield-related techniques are even better, but if you don’t have a shield, obviously it’s completely useless.
Stone Dragon:

Mountain Hammer: This is the good one. Overcomes DR, but the important one is Hardness. Ever wonder how martial artists break cinderblocks with their bare hands? This is how. Great out of combat utility, and the in combat usefulness sticks around for a while.

Stone Vise: The save is easy to overcome eventually, but natural 1s exist, and any way to immobilize an enemy is worth adding to your repertoire. Lockdown is essential, and the more saves you force an enemy to make, the better.
White Raven:

Battle Leader’s Charge: Not provoking attacks of opportunity while getting an enemy into your threat range is a good thing. If you somehow get Pounce (Barbarian dip, e.g.), then it’s even better.

Tactical Strike: If your ally needs a 5-ft. step to get into a flanking position, fine, but the usefulness is limited.
Third Level:

Revitalizing Strike helps your tanking, and Defensive Rebuke makes enemies focus on you, but the real winner is White Raven Tactics. Take White Raven Tactics. Take it now.

Devoted Spirit:

Defensive Rebuke: Enemies that you attack can’t attack anyone else or they suffer an attack of opportunity. This gives them incentive to focus on you. This is especially nice if you’re using either Iron Guard’s Glare or Thicket of Blades.

Revitalizing Strike: Crusader’s Strike’s older brother, and it heals more. I’d take this, since you want a way to heal yourself, but trade Crusader’s Strike in for it.
Stone Dragon:

Bonecrusher: The extra damage is nice, but not fantastic, and the extra effect doesn’t come into play without a wide crit range, and they get a save to resist it.

Stone Dragon’s Fury: Ironically, Mountain Hammer’s Hardness bypass makes it better for busting objects apart. Combine that with lessened in-combat utility, and you have a strictly inferior, higher level maneuver.
White Raven:

Lion’s Roar: You have to be the one to strike the last blow against the first enemy, and your allies need to take advantage of the damage boost immediately. It’s not terrible by any means, but you need teamwork and a bunch of attacks to get this one to work.

White Raven Tactics: This is a serious contender for the best maneuver in the Tome of Battle, and it’s easy to see why. You change the initiative order, deciding who gets the next turn. In a rather shady CustServ ruling, you can use this on yourself. Take it as soon as you possibly can.
Fourth Level:

Every discipline gets a winner this level. Pick and choose from anything you can take. My favorites are Covering Strike and Bonesplitting Strike.

Devoted Spirit:

Divine Surge: Extra damage is never a bad thing, but extra effects are usually better.

Entangling Blade: You make it much harder for enemies to get away, and can stop slower enemies in their tracks. Moreover, there is no save against this speed reduction. This becomes more unimpressive as you level up, so you may want to trade this away later unless you see a lot of slow flyers.
Stone Dragon:

Bonesplitting Strike: 2 Constitution damage may not seem like much, but in reality, it counts for a lot. They lose (# of HD) HP, take a -1 on their Fortitude save, it reduces the save DCs of many monster attacks, and if you repeat it enough, they instantly die. Constitution damage is nice.

Boulder Roll: When’s the last time you saw someone use an overrun attack? Moreover, you need the Improved Overrun feat first, or they can simply move out of your way.

Overwhelming Mountain Strike: The allowed Fortitude save makes this, in my opinion, slightly worse than Entangling Blade, but the complete removal of a move action still makes this a good choice.
White Raven:

Covering Strike: Douse the Flames was good, and this is even better. It lasts 3 times as long (which equates to most of the combat), and it’s a boost, not a strike. With a full attack and attacks of opportunity, you can hit 3-4 enemies with this at the first level you get it. And there’s no save against this. Awesome.

White Raven Strike: Good for setting up Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike, but not much else.
Fifth Level:

For a Crusader, nothing really stands out, so you can take pretty much anything that appeals to you. As a side note, the Crusader gets some alignment-specific maneuvers this level, meaning some are mutually exclusive.

Devoted Spirit:

Daunting Strike: Shaken might not be that debilitating by itself, but every small penalty adds up. The fact that damage scales much faster than saves means that the save DC is hard to pass, but many enemies start being immune to fear at mid levels.

Doom Charge: DR 10/-, even if only for a round, can actually be quite good at this level. As a Crusader, your DM will probably give you opponents whose alignment is opposite yours, so the +6d6 to Good should come up more often than not. Works wonders with Stone Power.
Note: You must be Evil.

Law Bearer: Against Chaotic opponents, this is great. Everywhere else, not so much. Interestingly, if you take a -8 to-hit from Power Attack, this ends up being better for damage than Doom/Radiant Charge. And of course, +5 to saves is awesome, but the usefulness is limited by the 1 round time limit.
Note: You must be Lawful.

Radiant Charge: This is functionally identical to Doom Charge, but for the opposite alignment.
Note: You must be Good.

Tide of Chaos: This is, in my opinion, the best of the charging maneuvers this level. It has the same to-hit and damage bonus as Law Bearer, but you get total concealment instead. And as we all know, miss chance is much more powerful than armor class.
Note: You must be Chaotic.
Stone Dragon:

Elder Mountain Hammer: This has the same utility as Mountain Hammer, but carries more bonus damage. If you qualify, trade up for it in an instant.

Mountain Avalanche: Trampling can actually be not terrible for you, especially if you pump your Strength. The only issue is the size category restriction. If you have a reliable way to boost your size, then this becomes very good.
White Raven:

Flanking Maneuver: Extra attacks are always nice. If you have a sneak attacker, this is even better.
Sixth Level:

This level, if it weren’t for Iron Bones, there would be literally no bad choices. As long as you stay away from that one, all of your options are nice. My favorites are Rallying Strike and Order Forged from Chaos.

Devoted Spirit:

Rallying Strike: It’s the same as Revitalizing Strike, but with a higher gap and works in a 30 ft. burst. This is a no-brainer for a trade in.
Stone Dragon:

Crushing Vise: Unfortunately, compared to all of the other tanking measures you have, this just doesn’t measure up. It only works against ground-bound enemies, who are often the ones who want to be in melee with you. In addition, your allies aren’t made any safer by the enemy not moving if they are fighting him with you.

Iron Bones: This maneuver is slightly better than Stone Bones. Five maneuver levels later we need better than slightly.

Irresistible Mountain Strike: The effect is actually good enough to warrant the chance of them passing the save. Action economy is king, whether it’s boosting yours or damaging the enemies. One thing to watch out for is the fact that the enemy can still take a full-round action, so a melee brute will still get to full attack you.
White Raven:

Order Forged From Chaos: If there is one thing that’s been drilled in by my comments, it’s that Action Economy wins D&D. This multiplies your move action among your allies. A marvelous choice.

War Leader’s Charge: Similar to the Battle Leader’s Charge, but better. The damage output is, on average, strictly better than the alignment-based Devoted Spirit charges, and any Crusader can use this against an opponent of any alignment. I’d suggest keeping, at most, this and one alignment-based charge.
Seventh Level:

White Raven is the real winner this level, but the other two disciplines have something nice as well. There are some things better left untaken, but the options are still solid for this level. My favorites are Swarming Assault, Clarion Call, and Shield Counter.

Devoted Spirit:

Castigating Strike: Maneuvers with Fortitude saves are generally easy to pass. Since this is Charisma-based, a secondary stat, this is even worse about it. You can expect most enemies to make this save pretty reliably. The only saving grace is that this is one of the only Area of Effect maneuvers that Crusaders get.

Shield Counter: If you hit with a shield bash, your enemy misses. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 gp. For once, attack rolls scaling faster than AC works in your favor. If you are a shield basher by nature, this is an obvious pick.
Stone Dragon:

Ancient Mountain Hammer: It carries twice as much bonus damage as its younger brother, Elder Mountain Hammer, but to take this you need a much more significant investment in Stone Dragon. If you have the prerequisites, snag it without a thought, and if you don’t, you can’t take it anyway.

Colossus Strike: This one is pretty mediocre, especially since the effect is against a save that will probably be made often. Also, am I the only one who finds it funny that if your Crusader is Small sized, a Medium creature gets the same save bonus as a Colossal creature? Now I have this mental image of a Gnome sending a Great Wyrm flying by punching it.
White Raven:

Clarion Call: As usual, high level White Raven maneuvers are making action economy dance a nice jig for you. Just to humor me, count 12 squares away from you. That’s the radius. All of your allies will probably get this, which just makes it even more potent.

Swarming Assault: More action multiplication, and it is still oh so much fun. With one or two melee allies, this is good. With three or four, this is fantastic. Extra fun if you combine this with Defensive Rebuke, and maybe Thicket of Blades for good measure.
Eighth Level:

White Raven and Devoted Spirit only get one maneuver each this level, but they are both lovely. Stone Dragon gets two, but they aren’t quite up to par. So basically, it’s business as usual here. White Raven Hammer is my personal favorite, and deserves special mention.

Devoted Spirit:

Greater Divine Surge: Extra damage is nice. Taking Constitution damage is not so nice. Two levels later, when you have access to Strike of Righteous Vitality, this becomes a much better choice, since you can heal the ability damage the next turn.
Stone Dragon:

Adamantine Bones: DR 20/Adamantine is great. Or, rather, it would have been a few levels ago. Combined with Steely Resolve and Stone Power, this still deserves mention. That’s really the only problem with this line, is that the levels are too high. Maybe WotC had a typo.

Earthstrike Quake: I have to pause every time I say the same of this one, since every part of me wants to say “Earthquake Strike.” This is pretty bad for you, since your enemies will probably make the save, and it can hinder any nearby allies.
White Raven:

White Raven Hammer: Holy no-save stunning, Batman! This maneuver is simply amazing, and is probably the best one this level.
Ninth Level:

Let’s face it, at this level, all of the maneuvers have to be pretty damn good. Fortunately, they are. You can take anything you qualify for and be set.
Fun Fact: A single-classed Crusader can get all three of these.

Devoted Spirit:

Strike of Righteous Vitality: It’s said that in-combat healing is subpar unless it is the Heal spell, and even then you would be better off dealing damage. This does all of the above. It refreshes you completely, making you ready for more punishment. Even more nice when you use it to help you nova with Greater Divine Surge.
Stone Dragon:

Mountain Tombstone Strike: Remember how Bonesplitting Strike was great for 2 Constitution damage? This does 2d6. Now look at the prerequisites. There are none. You can take this even if you have never taken a single Stone Dragon maneuver before. It’s fantastic.
White Raven:

War Master’s Charge: This one is nice if you are a charger. However, unlike its predecessors, this one lets your allies join in on the fun. If you’re in a melee-heavy party, this is the best thing since sliced bread.

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:53 PM

Stances: Holding Your Position

First Level

Crusaders don’t have much to pick from this level, unfortunately. Since a single classed Crusader needs two of these, the gold medalists are Iron Guard’s Glare and Leading the Charge. Both age very well, a useful quality for stances to have.

Devoted Spirit:

Iron Guard’s Glare: Most tanks wish they could do something like this. This gives an opponent no good options. They can attack you and do exactly what you want, attack a different threatened ally and take an attack penalty, or they can move to attack someone else and eat an attack of opportunity. This stance is pure gold. Take it and never look back.

Martial Spirit: Only good if you can launch several attacks every round, and overshadowed by Aura of Triumph eventually. For a support Crusader, or in a low level game, this is much stronger, but if you aren't the type who needs the extra healing, you could do better.
Stone Dragon:

Stonefoot Stance: The Stone Dragon stances are infamous for being horrible. Strength checks almost never show up in battle, except for bull rushes. Unfortunately, trying to bull rush someone ends the stance. Don’t waste your time, effort, stance slots, or pencil lead.
White Raven:

Bolstering Voice: The +4 against fear shouldn’t come up too often, but a +2 to Will saves never hurt. You do, however, have better things to do with your time.

Leading the Charge: Like a good chunk of the White Raven discipline, this is better with melee allies. However, a scaling flat bonus to charges is always nice. This stance really shines if you have a dedicated charger in the party, and Pelor help you if they have Pounce.
Third Level:

The stances are actually pretty good at this level, but everything else suffers from being overshadowed by Thicket of Blades.

Devoted Spirit:

Thicket of Blades: This is practically the Crusader’s trademark technique. Enemies can’t get away without eating an attack of opportunity. Toss in Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, some reach… you can make entire builds surrounding this one stance.
Stone Dragon:

Crushing Weight of the Mountain: I won’t be so quick to dismiss the possibility of a grappling Crusader, but I have never seen such a thing. If you are grappling, this is a prime pick, but otherwise it’s completely worthless.
Fun Fact: This is the only Stone Dragon stance that lets you move.

Roots of the Mountain: This is slightly better for Crusaders than anyone else, since moving is not as huge a priority as making sure your opponent can’t. This stance would be great if you could move while maintaining it, but we can’t have everything.
White Raven:

Wolf Pack Tactics: Flankers deal half your Initiator Level in extra damage. It happens more often than you might think, especially with the maneuvers that White Raven gives you to work with. Even nicer if you have a buddy with the Island of Blades stance.
Fifth Level:

At the level that a single-classed Crusader would be able to take one of these stances, they have the 6th-level Devoted Spirit stances to compete with. Keep that in mind.

Stone Dragon:

Giant’s Stance: Like most other Stone Dragon stances, you can’t move more than 5 feet with this on. Other flaws include capping at Large size, and the existence of (Greater) Mighty Wallop, Strongarm Bracers, and actual size increases. This is a terrible pick.
White Raven:

Press the Advantage: You get a second 5-foot step. It may not sound like much, but it drastically increases your maneuverability, especially when wielding something with a large threat range. Competes well with the alignment stances.
Sixth Level:

Only Devoted Spirit this level, but you get access to these at the same time as the 5th level stances if you’re single classed. The Crusader’s alignment restriction means you always have access to at least one of these.

Note: Please argue these at the slightest inclination if you feel I’ve overlooked something. I admittedly don’t have much experience with these particular stances.

Devoted Spirit:

Aura of Chaos: Obviously, I’m discounting cheese like the 1d2 Crusader here. This stance can have quite a kick to it if used with a larger number of smaller dice (3d4 v. 1d12, e.g.), and can vary based on how blessed you are by the dice gods.
Note: You must be Chaotic.

Aura of Perfect Order: This is, in my opinion, the most useful of the alignment stances. The ability to “Take 11” on one roll/round is more powerful than it sounds. You can make skill checks while under stress without worrying, stop worrying about failed saves, and basically reduce random chance as applied to anything.
Note: You must be Lawful.

Aura of Triumph: This stance can be good or bad depending on what enemies your DM is throwing at you. It basically quadruples the return of Martial Spirit, and lets your ally trigger the healing as well, but it only functions when you hurt someone Evil. Funnily enough, it doesn’t carry the “immediate and credible threat” clause of the Crusader’s Strike line, meaning you could beat up on the token Evil teammate for fun and profit. Like I said, though, this comes down to the campaign type. If you’re up against evil outsiders, this is awesome, but against neutral enemies you will never use it.
Note: You must be Good.

Aura of Tyranny: This is the worst of the alignment stances, by far. You always have to drain 2 health per ally, making this a slow drip at best, the allies have to be within 10 feet of you (one ally within 10 feet is nice, all of them is terrible), and they don’t even have the courtesy to make the HP transfer a zero-sum. Someone please tell me I’m overlooking an awesome combo with this.
Note: You must be Evil.
Eighth Level:

Unfortunately, a Crusader won’t be able to get either of these without multiclassing or taking the Martial Stance feat. Since both of these are obviously possible, I’ll just put these here for completeness’s sake.

Devoted Spirit:

Immortal Fortitude: You get 3 chances to stay alive before you need to reactivate this stance. With a high Con and good Fortitude save progression, you should be able to make relatively high DCs without too much trouble. The only reason this is Blue and not Gold is how common death effects and massive damage are in the upper levels.
Stone Dragon:

Strength of Stone: In case you couldn’t tell by now, I really hate Stone Dragon stances. You still can’t move, and the real kicker is that you can buy Heavy Fortification (granted, it’s a tad expensive). Pass.
White Raven:

Swarm Tactics: This is nice to have, and is fantastic when you’re about to use War Master’s Charge, but this has Immortal Fortitude to compete with, and reach weapons, those things that are fantastic for lockdown builds, don’t trigger this.

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:54 PM

Feats: Devotion’s Techniques

Only feats relevant to the Crusader will be listed.

Player’s Handbook

Skill Feats (Negotiator, Alertness, etc.): Never, ever, ever, ever, ever take one of these. Ever.

Archery Feats (Point Blank Shot, etc.): You don’t do archery. Stay away.

Blind-Fight: Re-rolling miss chance is good, but a Crusader is generally feat-starved as it is.

Combat Expertise: Not really that great, especially since you need to get your Intelligence up in order to take it. If you want to be a tripper, though, it’s required.

Improved Disarm and Improved Feint are not worth it, especially since no one really uses those techniques anyway.

Whirlwind Attack: Waaaaaay too feat intensive. And they’re all bad, too.

Combat Reflexes: A good option, especially if you’re using a lockdown build, where it is a must have.

Dodge: IT’S A TRAP! This is one of the worst feats in 3.5, and even worse in the hands of a Crusader.

Mobility: This is already bad, and you need Dodge to take it. Avoid.

Spring Attack: Even if you didn’t need those prerequisites, this would still be a bad choice. As it is, it’s terrible for you.

Endurance: The only use for Endurance is as a gateway to Diehard and Steadfast Determination. The former is a bonus feat, and the latter should be taken as soon as possible if you have the room for the feats.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Unlike a Warblade, this feat locks you into a single weapon. The only one that’s typically worth taking is a Spiked Chain, and you can just use a Guisarme for all your tripping needs.

Improved Critical: Just get a keen weapon instead.

Improved Initiative: This is one of those feats that’s always good. Take it if you have room.

Improved Unarmed Strike: You are not an Unarmed Swordsage, and you probably won’t qualify for Master of Nine anyway. Skip this and all of its offshoots.

Mounted Combat: With White Raven maneuvers, your mounted combat can actually be pretty effective. If you get this, snag Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge, but avoid Mounted Archery and Trample

Power Attack: Take it. It scales, it gives bonus damage, and it is fantabulous. Take it now.

Cleave: Actually pretty good, since the extra attack means an extra hit. Here’s a hint: It still counts even if you use a strike.

Great Cleave: Unless you have to kill low CR mobs, this is less useful.

Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder: Only really useful as prerequisites for Shock Trooper and Combat Brute respectively.

Improved Overrun: Yeah… no…

Improved Shield Bash: If you want to shield bash, then pick this up. Nothing’s stopping you if you have the space.

Toughness: …… I don’t have words for how bad this is…

Two-Weapon Fighting: You don’t have Tiger Claw. Avoid this entire line.

Weapon Focus: This locks you into a single weapon, but most people wouldn’t mind that anyway. On another note, a small boost to your attack roll counts for more when all you have to depend on is one large strike. Not the greatest option, but not terrible.
Tome of Battle:

Adaptive Style: For those times that you really need an unreadied maneuver, this is great. However, you can ready half of the maneuvers you know at any given time, so you're rarely starved for options.

Avenging Strike: Oh boy! A few times a day, you can do slightly more damage to an extremely restricted subset of enemies! Awesome!

Blade Meditation: It's a worse version of Weapon Specialization. And Weapon Specialization is bad enough already.

Devoted Bulwark: +1 AC for a feat, that only activates after someone has already hit you. Pass.

Evasive Reflexes: Most Crusaders with Dex high enough to take this will be lockdown builds. Those builds rely on actually attacking your opponent.

Extra Granted Maneuver: This feat is unspeakably amazing. You start with more moves, keep more moves open, and get your moves back faster. This is practically mandatory.

Martial Stance: Crusader stances as a whole are rather good, and another one to have access to never hurt. This is also the only way to get Immortal Fortitude on a single-classed Crusader.

Martial Study: You can't trade away whatever maneuver you happen to get from this, and you get enough maneuvers to be worth your time anyway. This is really only good for picking up disciplines that you normally lack access to.

Rapid Assault: +1d6 generally isn't that impressive, and it only works for one round.

Song of the White Raven: Obviously, only Bard/Crusaders will be taking this. It's very good for what it does, with the only issue being that it can't be used in the same round as Inspirational Boost.

Snap Kick: This is really for Unarmed Swordsages only. Your Unarmed damage just isn't up to snuff unless you take Superior Unarmed Strike, and sinking 3 feats into this isn't worth it compared to other options.

Stone Power: Combined with your delayed damage pool, you can effectively negate up to 10 damage per round. As an added bonus, if you go the Two-Handed Fighting route, you can use the very nice Shards of Granite feat.

Sudden Recovery: It only works once per day, uses your swift action for the round, and you might not even have to wait that long anyway.

Superior Unarmed Strike: Upping your unarmed damage isn't worth it compared to weapon enhancements.

Vital Recovery: Your maneuvers refresh automatically, so this activates right before your fourth turn. This would be great if it worked every time maneuvers were refreshed, but as it stands, it's mediocre.

White Raven Defense: Spending a feat for a small bonus to AC is not a good idea.

Divine Spirit: If you have Turn Undead as a Crusader, you're probably going for Ruby Knight Vindicator, in which case you have better things to spend it on than piddling amounts of HP.

Scribe Martial Script: I've always found Martial Scripts to be rather underwhelming, and if you need one that badly you can just buy it.

Clarion Commander: Perpetual Flank is the best ability here, but the draw is counteracted by having to take White Raven Defense first.

Faith Unswerving: Keep Up the Pressure is OK, but not enough to justify Devoted Bulwark.

Shards of Granite: The prerequisite feat is a good one, and all three tactical options are viable. This is nice if you have the room.

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:55 PM

Multiclassing: Avoiding Complete Devotion

Courtesy of Essence_of_War

I'll organize the sections below into what neat stuff you can get from a dip, some useful dip sizes, and then thoughts on the usefulness/efficiency of said dip. It won't be exhaustive, but it will be ones that I think are useful to note. I'll organize the classes into Base Class Core, Base Non-Core, and Prestige. I'll probably only mention good/useful saves when they're in areas the Crusader is weak or could use improvements in.

A few general thoughts first, keep in mind the magic number "6". If you take more than 6 levels outside of Crusader that don't directly boost your Crusader IL, you won't be able to get 9th level maneuvers. Also keep in mind the magic ratio "1/2", you get 1 point boost to your IL for MOST non-crusader classes. As a result, even numbererd dips are often preferable to odd numbered. Finally, because of the funkiness of the Crusader's stances known, it is a really good idea to take a sufficient dip that IL=5 lines up with a stance known. Even straight crusaders don't get Thicket of Blades until level 8, a good way to do this is to extract maximum value from a 6 level dip (IL=3) then take 2 Crusader levels (IL=5) so that the 2nd stance known at Crusader 2 can be used for Thicket of Blades. Alternatively, RKV gets a stance known at first level and Cleric2/Crusader3/RKV1 is IL 5 :smallbiggrin:

Base Classes, Core:

Barbarian

You're here either for pounce, Rage, or for ACFs with full BAB layered on top.

1 - Gets you Rage and Fast Movement OR Pounce with CChampion ACF OR Blind-Fight w/ SRD Dragon Totem.

2 - Gets you Uncanny Dodge OR Improved Trip w/ SRD Wolf Totem

The 1-level CChampion is good if you need pounce, but the Crusader usually isn't built as a charger. The dragon totem ACF is fine if you're planning on taking Pierce Magical Concealment and you need help getting the pre-reqs.

The 2-level dip is EXCELLENT if you're planning on building a tripper. Normally, the trip line is Combat Expertise->Imp Trip->Knockdown, but the wolf totem gets you Imp Trip as a bonus feat, Knockdown only requires Imp. Trip, so the two level dip is effectively 2 bonus feats that allow you to trip without the requisite int13+ for Combat Expertise!

Cleric
You're here for turn attempts, casting, and good saves.

1 - Cleric is front loaded, this gets you all of the above. If you don't like the domain spells, you have the option for taking devotion feats instead. This can be extremely useful.

2 - Low marginal value, does get you an extra point of BAB and saves.

Cleric is an excellent choice even if you don't plan on going into the RKV (dicussed below). If you aren't going that route, sell your domain casting for devotion feats.

Fighter
You're here for bonus feats or Dungeon Crasher ACF w/ full BAB.

1 - Gets you a bonus feat.

2 - Bonus feat OR DungeonCrasher 1

6 - Bonus feat OR DungeonCrasher 2

A large or powerful build Crusader can take the Knockback feat to make bullrushes very effective. If you're going this route, staying for all 6 levels might be a good choice. If not, 1 or 2 levels gets you exactly what you need, and marginal benefit from higher level dips is very low.

Monk
You're here for bonus feats, excellent saves, and access to evasion.

1 - 2 bonus feats (imp Unarmed and either Imp. Grapple or Stunning Fist) + save boost!

2 - Combat Reflex OR Deflect Arrows, Evasion, better saves!

Monk can be good if you need evasion quickly for some reason, or if you really want to be an unarmed/grappling crusader. Fighter or Wolf-totem barbarian is much better if you're not already committed to being unarmed. There is one other corner case, a Crusader (Dragonborn, Goliath or Half-Giant perhaps?) with a low dex can get combat reflexes without having to meet the pre-reqs and then boost their dex with spells/magic items later to extract benefit from the feat. It's good to know about.

Paladin
You're here for Divine Grace, turning and partial casting wrapped up with full BAB.

2 - gets you divine grace as well as a handful of other potentially useful abilities

4 - gets you turning, casting, as well as Aura of Courage and Divine Health

I'd only go for 4 if you're using this as an entry for RKV, the 2-level dip is fine if you have a high cha, but be aware that it doesn't stack with your Crusader class feature. Good to know about, not always an ideal choice, but alignment options in SRD at least make it somewhat flexible.

Ranger
You're here for combat style, and favored enemy along with good F/R saves, full BAB, and a boatload of skill points.

1 - gets you favored enemy which can turn into arcanists from CMage, and the save boost.

2 - gets you combat style and another save boost.

If you want to be a TWF crusader, this is a dip. Even non-TWF can benefit from the CMage ACF and the skill point boost!

Sorcerer
You're here for casting to get into JPM. Since Crusader extracts some benefit from Cha, this is often a stronger choice than Wizard.

1 - Spellcasting + will save boost

4 - 2nd level spells necessary for JPM

If your DM allows precocious apprentice, you only need 1-level here to get into JPM, if not, you'll be here for 4 long levels early on. If you're not going into JPM or Abjurant Champion, this really isn't an optimal place for you.

Base Non-Core:

Favored Soul

You're here for Cha based casting and saves.

1 - Casting + nice save boost

2 - marginal benefit is small, but you get the BAB + save boost here.

The FS is another potential entry point into RKV. Unfortunately, you need some way to get Turn Undead before you can get into RKV and the Sacred Exorcist route is not an option until 8th level! As a result, Paladin 4 is usually a more efficient RKV entry for Cha based casting, but if you're willing to burn a cleric 1 dip also, this could work out well.

OA/Rokugani Samurai

You're here for Ancestral Daisho, bonus feat and saves w/ full BAB

1 - Ancestral Daisho + save boost.

2 - bonus feat + marginal save boost.

Ancestral Daisho, if you can convince your DM to giving it to you with a weapon of your choice is easily worth a feat (see Ancestral Relic, BoED). The bonus feat and the improved saves are fine as well for the two level dip.

Hexblade

You're here for Mettle, Arcane Resistance, possibly casting as well w/ good will saves and full BAB.

2 - gets you arcane resistance, a will save boost and Hexblade's Curse

3 - nets you Mettle, (I think this is the fastest way to do so)

4 - you gain a familiar and cha based arcane casting.

All of these dips are plausible. 2/3 make for an excellent double dip with something like a paladin as Divine Grace/Arcane Resistance stack and Mettle is excellent. If you stay to 4, you get the casting which can make a viable entrance into JPM.

Knight
You're here for test of mettle, and Bulwark of Defense combined with will saves in a full BAB package.

3 - You pick up Bulwark of Defense, some improved Will saves and a number of potentially useful class features.

4 - Test of Mettle.

Bulwark of Defense is great for helping to control the battlefield if you don't already have something like Earth Devotion. Test of Mettle doesn't scale very well unless you're taking knight levels, but is excellent early on. This is a fine dip for either 3 or 4 levels.

Marshal
You're here for the auras, and save boost.

1 - gets you the minor aura, skill focus, and save boost

2 - nets you a small save bonus as well as a major aura.

If you're a tripper, getting Cha to Str checks from the minor aura is a great deal! There are reasons why you might want a major aura, but I don't find them very compelling.

Warblade
You're here for maneuvers and potentially the uncanny dodge lines w/ full BAB.

Since your Crusader IL feeds your Warblade IL and vice-versa, it is a little harder to point out strict level limits. The Warblade has access to some of the best counters and strikes in the game. The save counters are from Diamond Mind, and allow you to replace a save with a concentration check, the Crusader has Concentration on his class list so even if you only take a level or 2 of Warblade to get the Will/Reflex save counter and maybe Sudden Leap, you're looking at a significant improvement! Also, since between the Warblade and Crusader they know 6 distincy disciplines, this is a viable Master of 9 entry!

Swordsage
You're here for maneuvers, skill points, and saves.

Much of the same advice as the Warblade applies here. The save-replacment counters are still great. This is also a potential Master of 9 entry. Note that you won't get any benefit from the Swordsage's AC bonus at 2nd level unless you're wearing light armor.

Prestige:

Ruby Knight V(W)indicator
Fantastic prestige class that advances casting and maneuvers with the hotly debated Divine Impetus class feature. The class would be solid even if Divine Impetus didn't exist, but much stronger with that as an option. Depending on your entry point, you have several options with your last 5 levels. If came in via Paladin, you'll likely want to end with more Crusader levels to get 9th level maneuvers, if you entered via Cleric, it is possible to get to either 9th level spells or 9th level maneuvers but not both. You'll want to choose wisely depending on your game/party comp/optimization level.

There are at least 3 obvious methods of entry here. There is the paladin access, the maneuver focused, or the spell focused route. In that order:

1) Paladin 4/Crusader 1
2) Cleric 2/Crusader 3
3) Cleric 4/Crusader 1

Paladin access has the advantage of cha synergy with Divine Grace, while Cleric has the advantage of accessing higher level spells. Since the RKV gets a stance at it's first level, the Cleric2/Crusader3 entry gets Thicket of Blades at 6th level, which is the fastest possible path to Thicket of Blades. Paladin entry has the tempting option of Battle Blessing which allows you to quicken all of your std action paladin spells for free! This has fantastic syngergy with the RKV's Divine Impetus class feature. The Cleric entry has, of course, all of the usual DMM and full caster options.

Jade Phoenix Mage

This is an excellent Gish class, and the Crusader is probably the best martial adept entry point because of its access to Devoted Spirit maneuvers. There are a number of different entry options, sorcerer access cannot get 9th level spells, Wizard access will barely net 9th level spells at 20th ECL. It's 1st level class features are great primarily because you get an Arcane Strike equivalent

1) Crusader1/Wizard5
2) Crusader2/Sorcerer4
3) Crusader4/Sorcerer2
4) Hexblade4/Crusader1/AbjurantChampion5

The first two entry methods are obviously best for those trying to get the highest level spells, the 2nd and 3rd are potential sorcerer entry without/with access to Precocious Apprentice. I include it as an option because option 3 is probably the "worst" in terms of sorcerer/wizard spell progression and is actually a less "powerful" entry method.

More interesting is option 4. Hexblade gets arcane casting, allows you to cast in light armor, Arcane Resistance and Mettle! Moreover, because both Crusader and Hexblade have full BAB, you qualify for Abj. Champion at 6, which if you take to 5 gives you CL = HD with the Hexblade, and advances your Hexblade casting sufficiently to qualify for JPM! If you want a fun melee character with a flair of magic that probably won't break your game, this could be a great choice.

Master of 9
To follow shortly.

Eternal Blade
To follow shortly

Deepstone Sentinel
To follow shortly

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 09:56 PM

One last reserve for equipment, neat tricks, useful links and sample builds.

Now that that’s done, I need feedback. Corrections, suggestions, second opinions, I want it all, as long as it’s civil. This is a work in progress, and I’d like the “progress” part to go as smoothly as possible.

Welknair

2010-12-30, 10:00 PM

Looking forward to seeing the Swordsage.

Greenish

2010-12-30, 10:00 PM

Ranged Combat: No. Just… no. Your maneuvers don’t work at a range, and you can’t tank very well from 80 ft. away. Keep a hand crossbow just in case, but don’t expect it to be any good.Hand crossbow, when you're the only martial adept with proficiencies in ranged martial weapons?

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 10:02 PM

Looking forward to seeing the Swordsage.

You and me both, but I don't think I have the patience to crank that one out. :smalltongue:

The real question is whether or not Armed and Unarmed Swordsages share the same handbook or get different ones...

Hand crossbow, when you're the only martial adept with proficiencies in ranged martial weapons?

Would you believe that completely slipped my mind? I'll go change that now.

Greenish

2010-12-30, 10:19 PM

How about a word or two on mounted combat? Depending on how the DM rules charge-based maneuvers to work on mounted, it can be a strong option for a crusader. With lance, stuff like Leading the Charge and Battle Leader's Charge which add flat bonuses get doubled (tripled if you go for spirited charge).

Your mount uses it's own actions, so it can move next to an enemy, then you can use a standard action strike (or a full round one, unless it has full attack), then the mount moves away. Wham bam, you do what Spring Attack can only hope for without burning a single feat (or you could burn one for Wild Cohort).

Being mounted also increases the area you threaten, which is pretty handy.

After all, crusaders are also the only initiator with Ride as a class skill. :smallamused:

Private-Prinny

2010-12-30, 10:23 PM

I plan on adding detailed accounts of mounted combat, lockdown, and THF in post #3. Eventually. Right now, all that was really concerning me was getting a chassis down. But you're right, White Raven boosted mounted combat is amazingly effective.

Also, just to be pedantic, Swordsages have Ride too. :smalltongue:

Greenish

2010-12-30, 10:27 PM

Also, just to be pedantic, Swordsages have Ride too. :smalltongue:Blimey, I never noticed. It's only the poor warblades lacking it then.

Saintheart

2010-12-30, 11:21 PM

T.G. Oskar

2010-12-31, 03:36 AM

Nice to see a Crusader handbook! :)

In terms of feedback, I'd quibble with the classification of Martial Spirit as completely useless. I would rather describe it as situationally useful for allies depending on your houserules.

Consider the scenario when the weedy mage goes ahead of you in initiative and gets knocked to 0 or even -1, and the cleric's a distance away down the initiative count and in distance? Martial Spirit gives you a quick shot of ranged healing to apply to him which at least keeps the mage on his feet long enough to cast or do something to help himself.

The particular houserule where this stance remains useful is if you've got a DM that rules you don't have to work your way back from negative numbers if healing is applied to you after you're below 0 hp - in my campaigns we ruled that healing applied to you pumps you out of the negatives before the actual healing occurs. I can honestly say in my PbP campaign this prevented two arcane casters' deaths in separate encounters.

EDIT: Also, consider RAW abuse potential for out-of-combat situations: if Martial Spirit triggers on sucessful attacks, all the crusader has to do to fully heal up the party is stand next to a tree for (lost hitpoints/2) rounds and keep attacking it. Remember, it's successful attacks, not successful attacks on enemies. Saves your cleric for more important stuff like buffing everyone else. Infinite healing is now at your command. (Perhaps this explains why dwarves actually carry axes around with them?) :smallbiggrin:

But even if you don't go with RAW abuse, it's still a very handy feat for a cleric focused on healing to take via Martial Study. It might be worth it just for that alone.

Actually, Martial Spirit works for a lot of things. It's just that Crusaders have a HUGE competition when dealing with stances. I mean, have you seen ALL of Devoted Spirit's Stances? I could claim none of the stances of Devoted Spirit are bad at all.

Martial Spirit works, however, if you have a lot of attacks at your disposal. Having full BAB helps: that'd be about 8 points if you succeed at all attacks, and that's a bit meh. However, add Combat Reflexes to that: all of a sudden, you have one or two more attacks you can add to the repertoire, making it 12 HP per round. Haste adds one more attack, so that's 2 more HP. Using Crusader's Strike, Rousing Strike or Revitalizing Strike means you heal 2 hit points on top of what you'd normally heal. And so on. In resume; it's useful if you get a plethora of attacks, and you have White Raven. Eternal Blade adds Diamond Mind; that alone should be worrisome. So while it's not gold material, it should be at least black material (at LEAST), because it works off every turn. It's only worse if you have Aura of Triumph because that is insane.

Speaking of that: Aura of Triumph is obscene. You might ask: 4 HP per attack to yourself and one ally within 10 feet whenever that ally or you makes an attack? Meh, bad idea. BUT, and this is a big but, if you have two allies, you heal yourself almost to full if that other guy has lots of attacks as well. For example...imagine a wizard polymorphed into a 10-headed hydra. All of a sudden, those 10 heads (if they hit, and heck, the wizard will probably hit all of them) will heal you and the wizard for 40 HP. But, polymorph is a spell with a range of touch, so it gives good reasons why YOU should be the hydra: Combat Reflexes means you hit with all 10 heads, kill an enemy using range, and heal 40 HP to one friend and yourself while at it. Martial Spirit? Weak compared to that, but if you're not good, that's basically the same as the fast healing. Notice how both work at tandem?

But of course, Devoted Spirit isn't known for Iron Guard's Glare or Martial Spirit. It is known for Thicket of Blades (aka "you shall not pass or else you'll eat spiked chain and trip") and Immortal Fortitude (emphasis on "immortal"). Even the other alignment aura-stances are just sick; Aura of Chaos is what made the 1d2 Crusader that deals nigh-infinite damage and Aura of Perfect Order is a "take 11" for just about anything...and a stance that works outside of battle. Heck, getting that stance makes you take 11 on things that shouldn't have a take 10, so it's almost far too useful. The only one that sucks is Aura of Tyranny (you deal 2 points to allies to heal 1 point of damage), but what are the chances of being Evil? Then again, that might be the worst stance of Devoted Spirit and it's still moderately better than Stone Dragon stances (which would have been cool if they didn't had the "you can't move or else you lose the bonus") thing.

Also: trips and disarms are opposed Strength checks. Most of the wolf-based monsters (including the actual wolf) have free trip attempts if you get hit. Improved Grab on most creatures causes a grapple, so essentially you also get a Strength check on that one. And...you might figure you get a +2 on damage rolls done with melee weapons since those are Strength checks too :P But yeah, otherwise it's silly, and most of the Stone Dragon stances are silly because of that. And Stone Vise is good too, as well as Crushing Vise, since it halts creatures in place for at least 1 round; with a reach weapon, you don't need to be close in order to halt them in place, and you get some extra damage to boot. But again, you get the "has to be on the ground" which baffles an otherwise nice maneuver group.

And...I don't see why this has to be sent through PM, since it's a good way to explain to others why one stance doesn't deserve the rating it has. Besides, it's a clear and valid argument, so I don't see why it would be uncivilized to have it done generally.

Wings of Peace

2010-12-31, 06:48 AM

Glad to see a Crusader Handbook. May I recommend/request a small section dealing with the Idiot Crusader (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8218.0) style of Crusader building?

Saintheart

2010-12-31, 08:14 AM

And...I don't see why this has to be sent through PM, since it's a good way to explain to others why one stance doesn't deserve the rating it has. Besides, it's a clear and valid argument, so I don't see why it would be uncivilized to have it done generally.

Just thought I saw in the header post that the request was for feedback via PM; just me trying to be polite. :smallsmile:

I think we're more or less in agreement: Martial Spirit is one of those stances that probably gets less useful although never totally redundant as the levels go by. But even then, as described, its main problem is that it's a good stance competing with even better stances.

I think it's also more useful for Crusaders who are overtly going for a more support-oriented role (i.e. White Raven focused). So possibly Martial Spirit can be situational for melee-oriented Crusaders but well worth a look for support oriented Crusaders at low levels or in tandem with other stances.

Lans

2010-12-31, 01:02 PM

Dodge: IT’S A TRAP! This is one of the worst feats in 3.5, and even worse in the hands of a Crusader.

I think its required for a decent amount of things that making it red might not be appropriate.

Greenish

2010-12-31, 01:06 PM

I think its required for a decent amount of things that making it red might not be appropriate.It can be replaced by several other feats as a prerequisite, and most of the things it's a prerequisite for either aren't good in general, or aren't good for crusaders.

Lans

2010-12-31, 01:26 PM

It can be replaced by several other feats as a prerequisite, and most of the things it's a prerequisite for either aren't good in general, or aren't good for crusaders.
Mostly true I suppose. I think karmic strike is the important one, but that gets replaced by R.Gambit later.

Draz74

2010-12-31, 01:35 PM

In the "Races" section, you have "Wood Elf" listed twice. I think the first one was supposed to be "Wild Elf."

I'm not sure Half-Orc is a terrible option, as it's pretty easy to make a Crusader with basically no dependence on mental stats. Also, Gnome has one thing going for them: they can do mounted combat in 5'-hallways. (Halfling too, but ... meh. Dex boost.) I'd make a Half-Orc Crusader or Gnome Crusader long before a Grey Elf Crusader.

Note that a first-level Crusader automatically gets all but one available maneuver. Personally, I'd pick Stone Bones, even though it ages quickly, rather than getting Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack, since they're identical. Also, when I'm choosing between them, I'd actually choose Leading the Attack almost every time. The typed bonus doesn't come up very often at low levels. But while a Crusader is never going to have trouble taking enough Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances to meet any prerequisite he wants, White Raven prerequisites can actually be pretty tough to meet. That's why I'd pick Leading the Attack.

I'm surprised at your dismissal of Steadfast Determination, even though you advocate dumping Wisdom, make Constitution "gold," and mention the need to be concerned about Will saves. I think this might well be worth two feats. (But then, I tend to find Crusaders one of the less feat-starved classes around. Weird.)

Improved Critical really isn't made obsolete by Keen, because there are plenty of other crit-based powers that don't stack with Keen. However, I can't really think of any nifty combos for crit-fishing Crusaders, so I would only upgrade Improved Critical to green color.

On the other hand, I would advocate demoting Great Cleave to green or red status. :smallyuk:

While black is probably the right color for Improved Shield Bash, I hope this handbook will go in-depth into some of the Crusader's amazing potential to actually make sword-and-board a worthwhile style (hint: Shield Block Counter) and will therefore give good treatment to the PHB2 shield-based feats, including Agile Shield Fighter (which has Improved Shield Bash as a prereq). Crusaders with reach weapons doing battlefield control are awesome, but they're not the only viable style!

Amphetryon

2010-12-31, 03:54 PM

Great to see my favorite ToB class get a handbook.

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon with T.G. Oskar and argue that Martial Spirit is at least worth consideration as a Stance you take early and retrain later. At low levels, it can help all of your teammates if you're not in an early version of Rocket Tag D&D, and it pairs with Stone Power and the Delayed Damage Pool to make you really difficult to take out via HP damage in situations where you're needing to Tank seriously.

Private-Prinny

2010-12-31, 05:01 PM

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon with T.G. Oskar and argue that Martial Spirit is at least worth consideration as a Stance you take early and retrain later.

I've been wholeheartedly convinced that Martial Spirit isn't as bad as I thought it was, but the main problem with it lies with the bolded text. You can't retrain stances. Aura of Triumph completely overshadows it at later levels, meaning that beyond a certain point, you effectively waste the stance. Great in low level games, nice for the Crusader of an evil god, but stagnant if you go outside of that.

I am, however, going to change it to Black.

And...I don't see why this has to be sent through PM, since it's a good way to explain to others why one stance doesn't deserve the rating it has. Besides, it's a clear and valid argument, so I don't see why it would be uncivilized to have it done generally.

There's a fine line between a well-reasoned argument and "Your handbook is bad and you should feel bad, here's a list of things that suck" that I'd rather not see crossed (don't worry, I'm not saying anyone crossed it). That said, PMs should probably be reserved for only the most pedantic things like typos and formatting errors, which don't really constitute much of a debate.

Information on Multiclassing and sample builds should also be sent by PM only, since credit will be given and massive posts that have a duplicate on the first page do nothing but take up space. Now that that's cleared up, I need to get back to my books so I can add hopefully the rest of the maneuvers and stances by tomorrow. :smallbiggrin:

Godskook

2010-12-31, 05:18 PM

It can be replaced by several other feats as a prerequisite, and most of the things it's a prerequisite for either aren't good in general, or aren't good for crusaders.

Master of Nine being a notable exception. +5 maneuvers granted over 5 levels? Please, sir, I'd like some more!

Private-Prinny

2010-12-31, 05:21 PM

Master of Nine being a notable exception. +5 maneuvers granted over 5 levels? Please, sir, I'd like some more!

But for a Crusader, that class is nothing if not hard to qualify for. Unless your DM lets you use items (Crown of the White Raven offshoots) for the "Maneuvers from 6 disciplines" thing. Of course, even then it's still pretty feat intensive. :smallsigh:

Vortling

2010-12-31, 05:48 PM

And now each ToB class has a handbook underway. Excellent!

Amphetryon

2010-12-31, 06:25 PM

Fair point, I was unclear on my point by using the 'retraining' term. I should have said, most folks will be in their Thicket Of Blades stance by the time Martial Stance becomes all but useless - or another higher level stance, if their focus has moved away from Devoted Spirit.

Draz74

2010-12-31, 06:39 PM

But for a Crusader, that class is nothing if not hard to qualify for. Unless your DM lets you use items (Crown of the White Raven offshoots) for the "Maneuvers from 6 disciplines" thing. Of course, even then it's still pretty feat intensive. :smallsigh:

Or multiclassing. Human Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Crusader 13 / Master of Nine 5 is a perfectly viable build. But yeah, at that point we're talking about material that would be more appropriate for a Master of Nine Handbook. (Hmmm, there's an idea ...)

Godskook

2010-12-31, 06:54 PM

But for a Crusader, that class is nothing if not hard to qualify for. Unless your DM lets you use items (Crown of the White Raven offshoots) for the "Maneuvers from 6 disciplines" thing. Of course, even then it's still pretty feat intensive. :smallsigh:

As Draz points out, swordsage 1/fighter 1 gets you two of the feats(Unarmed swordsage ftw!) and all the maneuver requirements with only 1 lost initiator level. With that, you qualify as a human(or with flaws) at minimum level, but its more desirable to cap a build with it, so that you can get as much goodies as possible.

The Glyphstone

2010-12-31, 07:08 PM

For Martial Spirit being a waste of a stance, I'd note it's fairly well-off against its competition. At 1st level, you have to get a 1st level stance, and barring multiclassing, another 1st level stance at 2nd level. That makes your options:

-Martial Spirit
-Iron Guard's Glare (good)
-Stance of Clarity (if you're tanking groups, bad)
-Stonefoot Stance (miserable)
-Leading The Charge (okay, but very situational)

Private-Prinny

2010-12-31, 07:22 PM

For Martial Spirit being a waste of a stance, I'd note it's fairly well-off against its competition. At 1st level, you have to get a 1st level stance, and barring multiclassing, another 1st level stance at 2nd level. That makes your options:

-Stance of Clarity (if you're tanking groups, bad)

It effectively becomes a wasted stance if and only if you take Aura of Triumph later, since the latter overshadows the former completely. Otherwise, it remains usable. Maybe not terribly useful at later levels, but definitely usable.

I'm also going to assume you meant Bolstering Voice there.

The Glyphstone

2010-12-31, 07:25 PM

It effectively becomes a wasted stance if and only if you take Aura of Triumph later, since the latter overshadows the former completely. Otherwise, it remains usable. Maybe not terribly useful at later levels, but definitely usable.

I'm also going to assume you meant Bolstering Voice there.

No, I meant Stance of Clarity. +2 AC versus one enemy, -2 AC versus all other enemies. 1st level Devoted Spirit stance. What's Bolstering Voice?

Private-Prinny

2010-12-31, 07:29 PM

No, I meant Stance of Clarity. +2 AC versus one enemy, -2 AC versus all other enemies. 1st level Devoted Spirit stance. What's Bolstering Voice?

Bolstering Voice is a 1st level White Raven stance. Allies within 60 ft. get a +2 on Will saves, +4 if it's a fear effect. The reason I ask is that Stance of Clarity is Diamond Mind, which Crusaders sadly lack access to.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-12-31, 07:54 PM

There's a fine line between a well-reasoned argument and "Your handbook is bad and you should feel bad, here's a list of things that suck" that I'd rather not see crossed (don't worry, I'm not saying anyone crossed it). That said, PMs should probably be reserved for only the most pedantic things like typos and formatting errors, which don't really constitute much of a debate.

Hey now, I'd think GITP would be better than that!:smalltongue: Glad to see a Crusader handbook come up with, and I'm on-board with Martial Spirit being listed as "black." In a stereotypical party of a tank, a divine caster, an arcane caster, and a rogue, few of the other first level stances a Crusader can grab actually do much of anything.

I'm also one to agree with Steadfast Determination being a good choice for a feat slot - or two, as the case may be.

The Glyphstone

2010-12-31, 08:13 PM

Bolstering Voice is a 1st level White Raven stance. Allies within 60 ft. get a +2 on Will saves, +4 if it's a fear effect. The reason I ask is that Stance of Clarity is Diamond Mind, which Crusaders sadly lack access to.

Oh, never mind then. I thought Crusaders got DM. Make that Bolstering Voice then, which is also bad.

Cadian 9th

2010-12-31, 08:17 PM

Just wanted to chip in my two cents on Martial Spirit.

I've managed to make it stupidly useful, by playing an Azurin Crusader, taking Shape Soulmeld: Therapeutic Mantle. Alternatively, I've gone for a cleric level for Incarnum Spellshaping and Divine Spirit, but regardless.

Your healing with Martial Spirit to you (and to any allies who took the soulmeld and put 1 point of essentia in) goes from 2, to 5. Put in another, and it's 7, then 9, 11. Use a healing maneuver, at 1st level, to heal d6+9, d6+13 with 2 essentia. It's pretty neat, and most crusaders should qualify for Shape Soulmeld.

Awesome Handbook, I look forward to the finished thing!

Endarire

2011-01-01, 01:29 AM

Crusaders commonly go Cleric and Ruby Knight Vindicator. Make a note about the usefulness of Wisdom in such a case.

Besides, a higher Will save, Spot checks, and Listen checks helps your entire team!

Healing maneuvers and Martial Spirit will keep your team alive. Even at level 8ish, continually healing your team when your DM relies on HP damage works.

Besides, you can stand outside the Evard's black tentacles and heal the victims caught inside.

Also, Maneuver Cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

T.G. Oskar

2011-01-01, 02:48 AM

Well...given that most people actually stood in front of Martial Stance enough to give ideas on how to improve it...

Hmmm...Azurin Crusader using Therapeutic Mantle? Interesting proposal: it makes Martial Spirit a bit more useful upon yourself, or upon someone with Shape Soulmeld since it affects incoming healing. And since it activates at the moment you make a successful attack...

I'd say that trick should go in the "potential tricks for Crusaders", with the caveat that it ALSO affects Aura of Triumph (which, as I've said, is quite sickening). Not to mention the "fast healing Combat Reflexes hydra Crusader tactic", though that would require Dual Stance to make even MORE effective (because that way you get Thicket of Blades, which enables the trick, with Martial Spirit, and then the loads of attacks you'd get that way).

But yeah; Martial Spirit is great very early on, but it starts going down later on. Yet, it's very useful in combination with Stone Power and Steely Resolve, since it lets you play with your HP...

Hmm: Stone Power (through Mountain Hammer which is very nice), Therapeutic Mantle and Martial Spirit makes for a very nasty damage sponge (along with Steely Resolve). Good enough trick, or needs some refining?

Cadian 9th

2011-01-01, 03:11 AM

Runestar

2011-01-01, 03:20 AM

Escheton

2011-01-01, 03:29 AM

Strongheart halflings make better small mounted builds than gnomes do.
Partly due to the extra feat.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-01-01, 05:01 AM

I am not sure if this relevant, but you may want to recommend the delaying of stances by 1 lv to 9th and 15th, otherwise crusaders never get their 8th lv stance unless they burn a feat.

This makes me wonder if the designer got confused, since swordsage and warblade face similar issues.

I believe one of the designers eventually mentioned on ENWorld or some place else that they did indeed screw that up, but nothing official fixes it.

Endarire

2011-01-01, 07:21 PM

DEX is blue for a Thicket of Blades-focused Crusader. It should be at least 14 initially after racial and age modifiers.

Optimator

2011-01-02, 02:14 AM

I'd go as far as to say Crusaders make the best Masters of Nine.

DragonSinged

2011-01-02, 02:30 AM

One of the players in the game I am GMing is playing an evil Drow Crusader. I have sent this handbook to her, and she seems to think it is very handy, and will probably be referencing it a bit. Just thought I'd toss that out there for the feel-good vibes. :smallbiggrin:

Amphetryon

2011-01-14, 09:17 PM

Any progress, Prinny?

Private-Prinny

2011-01-14, 09:38 PM

Any progress, Prinny?

I've got maneuvers up through 6th level and stances up through 3rd. Unfortunately, I like to open the floodgates as opposed to a steady trickle, so it looks like I haven't gotten anything done. Fortunately, I have midterm exams next week, so I'll have at least those done by then.

After that, I'll tackle more feats, followed by combat styles, followed by non-core races and equipment options.

In a word, kinda. :smallsigh:

Private-Prinny

2011-01-16, 01:22 AM

Sorry about the lack of updates in a while. I'll say 5 Hail Pelors and sacrifice a goat. :smallbiggrin:

I added the rest of the maneuvers and the third level stances. Again, feel free to contradict everything I say. It's the only way I'll know I've done something wrong.

T.G. Oskar

2011-01-16, 02:14 AM

Can't say a lot about the rest of the maneuvers aside from that little nitpick with Martial Stance, but one thing's for certain:

Leadership is broken. War Master's Charge is pretty nice. Leadership + War Master's Charge = utterly broken. Basically it's like this: with Leadership, you can have a cohort which is two levels behind you. With War Master's Charge, you fuel your followers into a nifty death formation.

...Or something like that. War Master's Charge is pretty weird anyways. Heck, just by having two people it's nice, because you deal 50 damage plus insta-stun, sorta like White Raven Hammer's work. Obviously better if you use a 2H weapon with Power Attack, because the increased attack bonus from the charge mitigates the loss of BAB, and even the slowpoke dwarves and squishy wizards can help in that.

Heck, it basically allows everyone to have two turns; one for charging, one for doing whatever they darn please. Slap White Raven Tactics as a boost and one lucky pal gets THREE moves, so you can just get the basic 4-man party (you, Rogue, Cleric, Wizzy), charge alongside them, deal about 125 points of damage on a successful hit (and with a +10 bonus, given that you get a normal bonus of 2 from charging, 6 from your three allies and 2 more because you count yourself as an ally ;) ), stun-lock the enemy for the round (until just about acting again), then get your buddy Wizard or Cleric to unleash one more spell on it.

In other words: why have two turns worth of full attacks when you can just deal mondo damage with all your allies on a single attack? A regular party is already good at it (charge with the two characters with highest attack bonus, then the rest gets a bonus to their attack because the enemy gets stunned...), so a melee party just has to ruin it.

One more thing: does this allow charge-bullrushing?

As for the rest...not a big fan of Greater Divine Surge, since the base damage is weaker than Divine Surge and the Constitution damage is a big no-no, plus you want Strike of Righteous Vitality active just about at any time you need it. Greater Divine Surge with 1 point of Constitution loss does exactly as much as Divine Surge but with a +1 to the attack roll, so I feel it's strictly inferior (since you'd need to take more than two points of Constitution damage). Oh, and you get flat-footed afterwards; you don't want someone with Sudden Strike or Sneak Attack nearby, or you'll get singled out real quick (unless you get heavy fortification, which is a given by 15th level or less). So I'd give it Black or even Green, because a maneuver that has such a penalty for a minor benefit isn't really a good maneuver. I mean, Naberius can't help you on that, nor a Strongheart Vest, and you need to protect from being flat-footed (no Uncanny Dodge, remember?).

Leading the Charge + alignment charges = slight but effective damage boost.

A real shame about Castigating Strike, because it provides a penalty to attack rolls, which is something only martial characters actually worry about. Maybe if it had been Reflex it would have been better? Also; lawl @ being resisted by Mettle.

Raise Daunting Strike to blue if someone plays with stacking fear effects. Because shaken is a fear effect, and it doesn't say it doesn't stack, so if you can shake someone, you can also frighten or panic. So if your target is vulnerable to fear and shaken, it's gonna run away; if frightened, you've effectively taken it out of the battle for one minute. Great if you have another fear effect to use in order to stack it.

It's odd, but if you measure your hits, you could effectively immobilize an enemy with judicious use of Stone Vise, Crushing Vise and Entangling Blade; the enemy can't move more than you do, and since Crusaders rotate their maneuvers you basically use the maneuver each turn. It's a highly ineffective tactic since it takes you out of commission and you can only lock it for so long. White Raven Hammer and Entangling Blade seem like a good pick, and potentially redeem Crushing Vise (by doing a cycling effect that allows you to lock the enemy to the ground until WRH appears again, and if you use it first you can keep the enemy locked near you). It can do for some nice tactics (WRH, Crushing Vise, the Defensive Sweep feat and Stand Still) to keep your enemy in-line. But then again, Thicket of Blades does this real well, and Defensive Sweep and Stand Still are staples of lockdown builds, so...

Defensive Rebuke should be black, not blue. Sure, it forces your enemy to hit you, but it explicitly says melee; they can attack in range and cast spells without taking attacks of opportunity, and if they get out of your threat range, they can attack freely. It's blue or even gold on lockdown builds because it does exactly what's intended; making you the only obvious target, so they have to hit you, but you get steely resolve and other stuff to work with. It's still great, but it's functionality relies on keeping the enemy in check; if the enemy strikes only in melee and you have a reach weapon, then it's blue; if you have a lockdown build, then it's gold (and you can have a massive AC bonus to simply "no-hit" you, or else they eat an AoO which can have them locked with no problems just to have Defensive Sweep take them down on the end of their turn). But if the enemy can evade your threat reach, then it's not very effective.

Private-Prinny

2011-01-16, 11:18 AM

Leadership is broken.

I try not to rate things on how good they are when they use Leadership abuse, mostly because it's one of those things that almost every DM bans. I'm with you on just how good it is when you have followers.

As for the rest...not a big fan of Greater Divine Surge,

*snip*

Oh, and you get flat-footed afterwards;

*snip*

:smallsigh: That'll teach me to read the fine print more closely. I still maintain that Greater Divine Surge has a small niche. If you're running low on health, or otherwise need to heal anyway, you can blow some Constitution and heal afterward. The flat-footed thing can be negated by White Raven Tactics. It can deal a lot of damage under the right circumstances, but it sucks unless you do a lot of work.

Leading the Charge + alignment charges = slight but effective damage boost.

Agreed.

A real shame about Castigating Strike, because it provides a penalty to attack rolls, which is something only martial characters actually worry about. Maybe if it had been Reflex it would have been better? Also; lawl @ being resisted by Mettle.

Yeah, Castigating Strike is pretty terrible. I think a Will save would be better, since Mettle is less common than Evasion, and melee characters have lower Wisdom than Dexterity.

Raise Daunting Strike to blue if someone plays with stacking fear effects. Because shaken is a fear effect, and it doesn't say it doesn't stack, so if you can shake someone, you can also frighten or panic. So if your target is vulnerable to fear and shaken, it's gonna run away; if frightened, you've effectively taken it out of the battle for one minute. Great if you have another fear effect to use in order to stack it.

I think by RAW your target becomes shaken, so to stack the effects your ally would have to tack on the extra fear effect. But that's still worth consideration.

It's odd, but if you measure your hits, you could effectively immobilize an enemy with judicious use of Stone Vise, Crushing Vise and Entangling Blade;

*snip*

Good idea.

Defensive Rebuke should be black, not blue. Sure, it forces your enemy to hit you, but it explicitly says melee; they can attack in range and cast spells without taking attacks of opportunity, and if they get out of your threat range, they can attack freely.

I hate it when small details are important. :smallsigh: Getting out of your threat range is difficult, especially when you have Thicket of Blades, so that stays a no-win situation, and IIRC, ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity (if there's an easy way to avoid that that I'm overlooking, please tell me). The spells remain something to watch out for.

Amphetryon

2011-01-16, 11:30 AM

A Crusader with Daunting Presence (LM) and Daunting Strike wouldn't necessarily need an ally to stack the fear effects unless the DM is being pedantic. It's a niche case, likely, but if the Crusader is geared toward buffing allies and debuffing enemies anyway, it's certainly a feat worth considering for him. The Buffer/Debuffer role is one the Crusader excels at anyway.

T.G. Oskar

2011-01-16, 02:25 PM

I try not to rate things on how good they are when they use Leadership abuse, mostly because it's one of those things that almost every DM bans. I'm with you on just how good it is when you have followers.

Well, I was maximizing the potential of that feat. Replace "followers" with "charmed enemies" or "your necromancer pal's undead creatures" or "your pal's animal companion/familiar/mount". Basically, the idea goes as follows: the more "allies" you have, the easier it is to exploit.

:smallsigh: That'll teach me to read the fine print more closely. I still maintain that Greater Divine Surge has a small niche. If you're running low on health, or otherwise need to heal anyway, you can blow some Constitution and heal afterward. The flat-footed thing can be negated by White Raven Tactics. It can deal a lot of damage under the right circumstances, but it sucks unless you do a lot of work.

That's mostly the problem: Divine Surge is almost always explicitly better since, while it does fixed damage, it does a decent amount of damage without so many restrictions. Con damage AND flat-footed isn't something really inspiring for what's essentially a high damage attack, considering that other abilities do it better. The biggest insult is that trying to optimize Greater Divine Surge using the basic ways of Strongheart Vest and Naberius' vestige powers will deal the same damage as Divine Surge, with the net penalty of losing your Dex bonus to AC. A better way to deal with it would be taking a few levels in Cleric and Prestige Paladin (so that you get Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell and Battle Blessing; that way you can restore ability damage as a swift action), but it will delay access to maneuvers and potentially leave you out of 9th level maneuvers (and tie up your feats), and generally lead you to Ruby Knight Windicator anyways.

I think by RAW your target becomes shaken, so to stack the effects your ally would have to tack on the extra fear effect. But that's still worth consideration.

Unless indicated, shaken + shaken = frightened, frightened + shaken = panicked. I believe that's what RAW states (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear); the maneuver only indicates you become shaken for 1 minute, but never that you can't go further than shaken; in fact, usually when that's the case, it's indicated in the description.

In fact, all you need is to do Intimidate (you get the enemy shaken for 1 round) swifter than a standard action and then do Daunting Strike. It's a really nice debuff.

I hate it when small details are important. :smallsigh: Getting out of your threat range is difficult, especially when you have Thicket of Blades, so that stays a no-win situation, and IIRC, ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity (if there's an easy way to avoid that that I'm overlooking, please tell me). The spells remain something to watch out for.

Yes, ranged attacks cause attacks of opportunity, and so do spells cast on a threatened area. A 2 level dip on Order of the Bow Initiate or the Arrow Mind Ranger spell can fix that, but not everybody has access to those (though you can use a wand with Arrow Mind in that case); that's what comes to mind to prevent AoO because of ranged attacks. Spells only require a high Concentration, unless you get Mage Slayer (and you can because it only reduces CL, not IL).

A Crusader with Daunting Presence (LM) and Daunting Strike wouldn't necessarily need an ally to stack the fear effects unless the DM is being pedantic. It's a niche case, likely, but if the Crusader is geared toward buffing allies and debuffing enemies anyway, it's certainly a feat worth considering for him. The Buffer/Debuffer role is one the Crusader excels at anyway.

I was actually thinking for Intimidating Presence or the feat that acts like Power Attack but allows you to make an Intimidate check (or is it Frightful Presence)? The idea is that you can use those first to shaken the enemy (or potentially frighten it), then go Daunting Strike to frighten/panic them. Too bad only casters get to ignore fear immunity (a martial kind of Dread Witch would be too powerful).

Cieyrin

2011-01-16, 05:44 PM

I was actually thinking for Intimidating Presence or the feat that acts like Power Attack but allows you to make an Intimidate check (or is it Frightful Presence)?

That'd be Intimidating Strike, though it has a clause against furthering fear beyond Shaken and requires a Standard Action like a martial strike.

Darrin

2011-01-18, 08:25 AM

Some comments on maneuvers:

Second Level:
Shield Block. You say without a shield, this is completely useless. However, by RAW, it doesn't require a shield. You should be able to give an ally a +4 AC bonus even if you don't have a shield. That's not completely useless. If you want to get even more pedantic, the maneuver doesn't say that you have to be wielding the shield. A buckler you aren't using should still count for a +5 bonus. You might even try an Extreme Shield strapped on your back, although that's probably going to get a book thrown at your head.

Mountain Hammer should be gold.

Third level:
Lion's Roar. What is with Teh Hate on this maneuver? Yes, WRT is pure gold, but Lion's Roar can provide a lot of not-so-shabby damage and is one of the few maneuvers that works well with ranged attacks. The damage can add up if you've got a lot of rear-echelon squishies plinking away with slings/crossbows. It works against any enemy, not just the first one. It's also a boost, and Crusaders don't get all that darned many of those.

Stances:
Crushing Weight of the Mountain. Fun fact - not only can you move, but it can also be used while flying/swimming.

dob

2011-01-23, 11:58 PM

I was getting ready to post some general Crusader questions in a separate topic when I came across this. I hope they're appropriate here, I'll repost elsewhere if they're not! I'm working on a Knight/Crusader mounted halfling build, am entirely new to Tome of Battle. I'm current Knight 4 and just picked up my first level of Crusader.

1. Iron's Guard Glare notes its initiation action is 1 swift action. Am I limited to providing a -4 to attacks against a single foe each round, or is that the cost to switch into the stance?

2. Leading the Charge gives +10 to damage; is this really doubled when charging with a lance?

3. As long as you can use one or more maneuvers each round, you should never run out of maneuvers each day? (The wizard in my party seems to be leaning towards thinking this makes ToB much more powerful than arcane casters at our levels.)

4. Are Stone Dragon maneuvers available when on a mount that's standing on the ground?

5. Assuming I want Thicket of Blades as soon as possible without burning a feat on it, I'm going to have to my next two levels in Knight and then another level of Crusader? There's no way to delay choosing my 2nd known stance until Thicket of Blades becomes available if I leveled in Crusader sooner?

Thanks for the guide, it's been helpful. I can't speak to the merits of playing straight Crusader, but it's been a fantastic addition to my Knight; I easily just doubled my effectiveness in combat.

Darrin

2011-01-24, 07:35 AM

1. Iron's Guard Glare notes its initiation action is 1 swift action. Am I limited to providing a -4 to attacks against a single foe each round, or is that the cost to switch into the stance?

The swift action is just to get into the stance. Once you're in the stance, it doesn't require any actions to activate.

2. Leading the Charge gives +10 to damage; is this really doubled when charging with a lance?

The general rule is "static bonuses are multipled, extra dice are not". So, yep, Leading the Charge + Lance = Lots of Ouchiness.

3. As long as you can use one or more maneuvers each round, you should never run out of maneuvers each day? (The wizard in my party seems to be leaning towards thinking this makes ToB much more powerful than arcane casters at our levels.)

Martial Adepts make spellcasters nervous for the first 6 levels, but after that they get tentacle-raped by searing fell twinned necrotic skull bombs just as easily as everyone else.

Seriously, a well-played wizard has an infinite number of spells if he plays smart: contingency, teleport, scry/die, etc. He can bamf out, rest up, then come back and dictate the next encounter on his terms. And that's not even getting into Warlocks and reserve feats. Yes, sparkly stuff happens whenever a Warblade swings his sword, but even though his maneuvers never run out, a spellcaster with the right spell still pwns him. What ToB really does is at mid- to higher levels, melee characters are more *relevant* and more importantly they're still *interesting* to play.

4. Are Stone Dragon maneuvers available when on a mount that's standing on the ground?

By RAW, I don't think so. Although if I had a PC focusing on Mounted Combat where that might be an issue, I'd probably homebrew a feat or an item that allowed him to use Stone Dragon strikes if his mount was touching the ground. In actual play, I suspect a lot of DMs forget/ignore the "touching the ground" thing.

5. Assuming I want Thicket of Blades as soon as possible without burning a feat on it, I'm going to have to my next two levels in Knight and then another level of Crusader? There's no way to delay choosing my 2nd known stance until Thicket of Blades becomes available if I leveled in Crusader sooner?

To get his stances somewhere near the optimal level, a straight Crusader 20 has to use the Martial Stance feat. Kind of a horrible feat tax, though. However, since the Crusader 20 capstone is kinda "meh", you're not really missing all that much with a two-level dip into some other class.

Timeless Error

2011-01-24, 08:05 PM

I don't have any quality crusader-related information to contribute, but I want to say that this is an awesome project and I'm looking forward to it's completion.

Akal Saris

2011-01-24, 10:21 PM

Thanks for putting this handbook together, Private-Prinny! I'm sure it will be a great resource for the community :smallbiggrin:

Some fun crusader feat/ability chains that I'd like to submit for the guide if there's room:

The Fey Crusader: [Min level: 6 for good investment, 9 is best]
Lesser Aasimar (PGtF) + Fey Heritage + Fey Skin + Fey Presence + Fey Legacy + Magic in the Blood (PGtF)
Optional: Fey Power, Quicken SLA (Charm Monster, Confusion, or Dimension Door)
Special: Since you're lesser planetouched and also have fey blood, your fluff fits that of an eladrin very well. Magic in the Blood may or may not boost fey feats, this trick assumes that it does as they are part of your racial heritage.

You gain +3 to will saves against enchantments (useful for any tank), DR/Cold Iron equal to the # of fey feats you have (useful in combination with healing and delayed damage), and gain the following SLAs 3/day: light, charm monster, deep slumber, disguise self, confusion, dimension door, and summon nature's ally V.

This takes you very far from your typical crusader, but this adds a lot of versatility to your crusader. You have 2 social spells, 2 crowd control abilities, a teleport, and 3/day on-demand a second tank, or 1d3 unicorns for healing. Saves are based on character level and charisma.

The Rogue's Best Friend [Min level: 6, but gets better over time]
White Raven Defense + Clarion Commander + Tactics of the Wolf.
Optional: White Raven Tactics, Improved Initiative, White Raven Strike, Flanking Maneuver, Swarm Tactics, Marshal Aura: Motivate Flanking

Spend a standard action to make an Intimidate check against a foe, then next action hit that opponent. For 1 minute your allies automatically treat him as flanked, even if they are shooting him with a bow. Additionally, you grant +3 dmg against flanked targets (IL 6 tactics of the wolf), or 3+Charisma with a 1-level marshal dip.

The optional abilities are all standard White Raven tricks to add more attacks for your high-damage friends, but most require your rogue to be in melee there with you.

Terrifying Warrior [Min level: 6]
Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) + Imperious Command (DoTU) + Never Outnumbered Skill trick (CScn) + Fearsome armor (DoTU):
Whenever you charge, attack, or cast a spell, opponents within 30ft must save (10+Cha+1/2 level) or be shaken for 1 minute. Spend your move actions to lock down 1 threatened opponent (or 1/enc all opponents within 10ft) into cowering for 1 minute (or frightened without Imperious Command).

Level 1 Iron Man [Min level: 1...]
Warforged + Adamantine Plating + Stone Power + Steely Resolve + Stone Bones + Martial Spirit + Crusader's Strike:
Yes, it seems like a lot, but really most L1 or L2 crusaders have all those maneuvers and the stance. Every round that you attack, you can take -1 to an attack to gain 2 THP. If you hit with Stone Bones, you gain DR 5/adamantine, otherwise you have DR 2/adam.

Thought exercise: Assume that the round after you attack with Stone Bones, you would take 20 damage from a hit. DR subtracts 5, then you lose 2 THP, then 5 HP goes into your delayed dmg pool and you take 8 damage. Next round, you use crusader's strike (at +1/+1 from furious counterstrike), and heal 1d6+1+2 (6), and gain 2 THP. All 8 HP that you took the previous round now is healed. If you're hit again, you have DR 2/adam and put the rest in your pool. And as a side bonus, you have all of the wonderful warforged immunities! At later levels the numbers don't add up so well, but this makes for a serious juggernaut from about 1-4.

Private-Prinny

2011-01-24, 11:41 PM

Thanks for the compliment! :smallbiggrin:

I just wish I wasn't so lazy. That way I could update more frequently. There's always room for extra submissions.

Endarire

2011-01-25, 01:49 AM

Vanguard Strike is a +4 untyped bonus to accuracy. Leading the Attack is a +4 morale bonus to accuracy.

Honjuden

2011-01-25, 05:15 PM

Just wanted to mention the Extra Granted Maneuver feat as I see you did not mention it. The extra maneuver gives you more options, and lets you cycle through your maneuvers faster.

Akal Saris

2011-01-25, 05:35 PM

I think he will. He's only gotten through the core feats so far.

Saintheart

2011-01-27, 03:16 AM

Just to add to the PrC section: I deeply hope Tome of Battle's own Ruby Knight VinWINdicator gets a look in there, because it's just awesome, and it actually looks nice whether you go into it from a paladin base or a cleric base.

Admittedly getting into RKV at low levels means you're more likely dipping Crusader, but there's nothing stopping you resuming the Crusader path once you've maxed out the Vindicator.

The two general ways in which you get to RKV as early as possible: Crusader 1/Cleric 4/RKV 10, or Crusader 1/Paladin 4/RKV 10, though there've been other builds that mix up the number of levels of cleric/crusader or paladin/crusader to get there, too.

The main reason (and therefore the best break point) for RKV is at RKV 7, where Divine Impetus kicks in. This is stupid awesome for clerics, and moderately awesome for paladins: it allows you to trade turn undead attempts for additional swift actions in a round. Combine this with Nightsticks for maximum tears from your DM, or indeed any other Divine Metamagic abuse.

As I said, it also remains moderately awesome for paladins as well ... so long as the paladin has access to Complete Champion and the Spellcasters Compendium. Reason being: Battle Blessing feat from CC, and the expanded paladin list from the Compendium. With Battle Blessing, virtually the entire paladin spell list becomes a swift action to cast, since most of it is already a standard action and the feat steps the casting time down by one action type. That's DMM (Quicken) for free without blowing a single turn attempt. And then Divine Impetus gives you additional swift actions per round for the turn undead feature which you otherwise will never, ever use.

MeeposFire

2011-01-27, 05:26 AM

Martial spirit does have some advantages over aura of triumph

1) Works on any creature not just evil. You will fight nuetral foes at times.

2) Aura only works up to 10 feet. 2 squares is not very far (not that 30 feet is huge but still it is 3x the coverage).

Not sure if that necessitates a color change but it should be noted somewhere.

gorfnab

2011-01-27, 05:56 AM

Some Crusader builds I like:

Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9 - tanking with lots of healing

Wild Elf Crusader 3/ Fighter 4/ Champion of Correlon Larethian 4/ Eternal Blade 9
or
Wild Elf Crusader 3/ Fighter 4/ Champion of Correlon Larethian 5/ Eternal Blade 8 - if you want Mithral Fullplate (possibly of Speed) for some reason

1. Weapon Finesse
3. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Thinblade
4. Dodge
5. Combat Expertise
6. Mobility
7. Mounted Combat
8. Spring Attack
9. Weapon Focus: Elven Thinblade
11. Whirlwind Attack
12. Bounding Assault
15. Elusive Target
18. Rapid Blitz

Gear: +X Mithral Chain Shirt, +X Mithral Heavy Shield, +X tricked out (Keen or what not) Elven Thinblade

Jopustopin

2011-02-12, 12:00 AM

From Tome of Battle:
"If at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expanded maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you. Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are withheld. At the end of your next turn, a withheld maneuver is granted to you, and the whole process of divine inspiration begins again.

You begin an encounter with an additional granted maneuver at 10th level (bringing your total to three), and again at 20th level (bringing your total to four)."

Assuming pair always means 2. Never does it say you gain more than a "new pair" (Except under the feat Extra Granted Maneuver).

Now read the feat Extra Granted Maneuver. Now finally read Maneuvers Readied from page 96.

Q: Dear Sage,
When a crusader's maneuver recovery mechanic (Tome of Battle, p.9) activates, what happens to any maneuvers he still had ready and granted?
--Dan
A: If at the end of the crusader’s turn he cannot be granted a maneuver because he has no withheld maneuvers remaining, the process starts over from scratch. All maneuvers (whether expended or not) once again become withheld, and two of those maneuvers are randomly granted.

Am I mistaken when I say that a 20th level crusader is granted 4 maneuvers at the beginning of battle then when he recovers all of them he is only dealt a new pair that he can use?

DUNGE0NMA5TER

2011-03-07, 03:47 AM

Here is a build I'm playing in my game. It's simple DM friendly and powerful. However it can be made more powerful quite easily. (I picked elf because if the game goes epic I plan on grabbing Heir of Siberys and in this hypothetical situation I'd have to be a true elf and not an elf subrace)

Pretty much my DM poo-poo's on dipping (no pounce variant barbarian for me), multi-classing (XP penalties!), and flaws. So I give you this very strong build that I started playing at ECL 1 and am currently ECL 4:

Crusader 10/Eternal Blade 10
Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm) Eternal Blade

Feats:

1: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper
9: Weapon Focus (Glaive)
12: Combat Reflexes
15: Robilar's Gambit
18: Extra Granted Maneuver (Mountain Tombstone Strike)

Maneuver Progression
Levels 1 - 10 (Crusader)

1st: Vanguard Strike, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Martial Spirit
2nd: Leading the Charge
3rd: Battle Leader's Charge
4th: Foe Hammer (Stone Bones)
5th: White Raven Tactics
6th: Revitalizing Strike (Crusader's Strike)
7th: Entangling Blade
8th: Thicket of Blades, Covering Strike (Douse the Flames)
9th: Radiant Charge
10th: Flanking Maneuver (Leading the Attack)

Levels 11-20 (Eternal Blade)

11th: Moment of Perfect Mind
12th: -
13th: Rapid Counter
14th: -
15th: Moment of Alacrity, Stance of Alacrity
16th: -
17th: War Master's Charge
18th: Mountain Tombstone Strike
19th: Time Stands Still
20th: -

Roles: This is not a tank build. At low levels you have Phrenic so you're two levels behind everyone else. Being two levels behind everyone makes tanking hard. In fact you are not much more than a support character at this point. Hope that all the other roles are taken care of. At high levels you deviate too far away from Crusader to really shine as a tank. This build is simple and effective at what it does (which should be obvious).

You enter the stance Leading the Charge and Robilar's Gambit and charge; power attacking for full and dumping it into a penalty to your AC. When you get hit back they provoke. You now become even more accurate due to Furious Counterstrike and still have your full power attack to add to damage. You should beat things to a pulp.

At higher levels you can use War Master's Charge + Leading the Charge + Shock trooper + Power attack to dish out an incredible amount of damage (Powerful but not theoretical). (Assuming you were already in Leading the Charge Stance) Then you use a swift action to put your initiative count @ +20. Then it's your turn again. You initiate a powerful maneuver then move back into charging position. Then you take your turn again as an immediate action and use leading the charge + shock trooper + power attack + Robilar's Gambit to dish out more wonderful damage. Then finally the monster gets to go... does he dare attack you?

I recommend grabbing some maneuver granting items to make up for those you don't get from levels 11 - 17 (since you'll be ramping up for Time Stand's Still).

Hiro Protagonest

2011-03-26, 10:01 PM

This is good, I like it.

subject42

2011-03-26, 10:21 PM

For races, what about Snow Elf? Aren't they another elf race that doesn't take the CON penalty?

Amphetryon

2011-03-27, 07:16 AM

For races, what about Snow Elf? Aren't they another elf race that doesn't take the CON penalty?

There's the Painted Elf, also. If memory serves, Painted Elves get an INT penalty, while Snow Elves get a CHA penalty. For a Crusader, the former might be more appropriate, assuming my shoddy memory is accurate.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-04-05, 08:29 PM

When's the next update gonna happen?

Private-Prinny

2011-04-05, 08:41 PM

When's the next update gonna happen?

I have massive procrastination issues. I'll try to put the stances up tonight, but it's nowhere near suitable penance. I should try sacrificing a goat.

Private-Prinny

2011-04-05, 10:02 PM

Okay, stances are done, and it only took me a 3-month hiatus. I'll start work on another section as soon as I get a request for one of the following.

A: Multiclassing and Prestige Classes.
B: Combat Styles.
C: Non-core feats and races.
D: Example builds and useful links.

As always, I'm open to massive amounts of help.

Lateral

2011-04-18, 06:16 PM

It's probably best to go for non-core feats and races or multiclassing first; combat styles are fairly intuitive for initiators, and example builds usually come last. I might do the Tome of Battle feats and the best non-LA noncore races next, then do a couple of multiclasses and prestiges.

Private-Prinny

2011-04-18, 06:20 PM

MammonAzrael

2011-04-18, 06:56 PM

I agree with the non-core feats and races. I'd suggest hitting the feats first. In order, I'd think ToB, then the Completes and PHB II, then others.

Personally, I'd like to see the equipment section have something, even just core items, before hitting multiclassing and PrCs.

Private-Prinny

2011-04-18, 09:29 PM

Tome of Battle feats added. As usual, feel free to try to persuade me. I'll update more tomorrow.

Akal Saris

2011-04-18, 11:44 PM

You might want to add more in-depth analysis of each of the 3 tactical feats and how useful each option is.

Otherwise looks fine to me, though I would downgrade stone power to black considering that 10 temporary HP for -5 BAB is pretty worthless at higher levels, despite its godliness at levels 1-6 or so.

Firechanter

2011-04-19, 04:08 AM

I agree with Akal about Stone Power, it doesn't look at all great to me. Maybe fine at low to mid levels if you just want to tank and are fine with not hitting anything; at high levels the 10 soak per round don't look so hot. Black seems to be the proper colour.

Also, Song of the White Raven: you can still choose to activate your music as standard action, and your adept and bard levels still stack, which is the real boon of this feat. This is the most defining aspect of a Bard-sader, and thus it should be gold.
The swift action drawback may be reason to give it "only" cyan, but I'm going by the fact that there simply isn't a Bardsader without this feat.
(Of course, no point for anyone else to take it.)

Lateral

2011-04-19, 08:09 AM

I'd agree with Firechanter; Gold for crusaders with Bard levels (even just one!), but Red if they don't have any.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-04-19, 08:14 AM

I'd say that the Bard-sader is a strong multiclass option, but it also probably outside of the range of this handbook. Also, I'd knock down Stone Power as has been mentioned. Great at low levels, but, much like Stone Bones, it's limited very soon.

Greenish

2011-04-19, 01:17 PM

I did the weapons from core, though I only mentioned, well, the ones worth mentioning. Do point out if you disagree with anything:

Simple weapons are by and large outclassed by martial weapons. Worth mentioning:

Spiked Gauntlet: A platform for enhancements such as Warning (or Defending cheese) once you can afford those. Otherwise a last ditch weapon at best.

Morning Star: Being both piercing and bludgeoning is it's only claim to fame. Cheap back-up weapon at lower levels.

Sling: Doesn't cost anything, allows applying Str to damage with 50' range increments. Low level steady.

Martial weapons:

Light weapons: Get a piercing or slashing one in case you get swallowed whole, though Spiked Gauntlet helps too.

Spiked Armour: Allows you to threaten in melee range even while holding a reach weapon. Also enhancement platform. Never your first weapon, but useful enough to always have.

Flail: Disarms and trips.

Longsword: The basic thing.

Shield and Spiked Shield: If shieldbashing is your thing, here you go. Cheap Bashing enhancement allows normal shield to outdamage spiked one, but the difference is minor.

Trident: Can be thrown or set against charge. Versatile and under-appreciated.

Greatsword: The basic two-hander.

Falchion: Greatsword's challenger, requires some damage bonus to outshine it on the long run, but the difference is rather minor. Solid if you like critting.

Halberd: Trips, can be set against charge. Doesn't actually have reach, note.

Scythe: The coup de grâce weapon due to it's x4 crit. Also trips. Otherwise unremarkable.

Glaive: If you don't care about fancy combat manoeuvres, this is the reach weapon for you. No tricks, just d10 damage.

Guisarme: Reach & trip.

Ranseur: Disarm bonus. Surprisingly effective, especially on low levels against humanoids. Being two-handed with a bonus means the roll is easy, and having reach means the opponent can't make an AoO without a reach weapon of it's own.

Lance: Intended and best utilized with mounted charges. Otherwise meh.

Longbow: Keep one with you just in case. Seriously.

Exotic weapons:

Dwarven Waraxe: Dwarves get it as a martial weapon, so blue for them.

Spiked Chain: The only core exotic weapon worth a feat. Reach & close, trips, disarms, the works.

Amphetryon

2011-04-19, 01:49 PM

One quibble with your list, Greenish:

The sling's difficulty in generating multiple attacks/round versus almost any other weapon's ability to do the same is definitely a detractor.

Cieyrin

2011-04-19, 01:55 PM

One quibble with your list, Greenish:

The sling's difficulty in generating multiple attacks/round versus almost any other weapon's ability to do the same is definitely a detractor.

It's still a nice starter ranged weapon, since most Crusaders will have a high strength that they'll want to take advantage of and it's a backup weapon, anyways. It'll at least get them through the first couple levels until they can pick up a proper composite longbow with a complimentary strength bonus, y'know?

Devmaar

2011-04-19, 02:15 PM

It's worth mentioning that the spiked gauntlet allows you to threaten squares around you while wielding a reach weapon.

Amphetryon

2011-04-19, 02:17 PM

It's still a nice starter ranged weapon, since most Crusaders will have a high strength that they'll want to take advantage of and it's a backup weapon, anyways. It'll at least get them through the first couple levels until they can pick up a proper composite longbow with a complimentary strength bonus, y'know?

I'll agree it ain't horrible at low levels. Generally, I'd consider other weapons better, even at low levels, though. Dagger gets multiple damage types (useful at low levels), is light, and can be thrown; Spear/Trident can serve as your melee and ranged weapon should you carry a spare, etc.

Greenish

2011-04-19, 02:26 PM

One quibble with your list, Greenish:

The sling's difficulty in generating multiple attacks/round versus almost any other weapon's ability to do the same is definitely a detractor.Well, I was mostly thinking of very low levels, before iterative attacks. After that, yeah, it's crap. Should change that to reflect.

It's worth mentioning that the spiked gauntlet allows you to threaten squares around you while wielding a reach weapon.Well, I'm not sure about that. You'd need to stop holding the reach weapon to be able to use (and threaten) with a spiked gauntlet, and you'd need to do it on your turn, so you wouldn't threaten with the main weapon.

But you remind me that I forgot armour spikes.

Aramalian

2011-05-12, 06:17 PM

Unfortunately, a Crusader won’t be able to get either of these without multiclassing or taking the Martial Stance feat. Since both of these are obviously possible, I’ll just put these here for completeness’s sake.

I can't find anything besides a lack of patience that prevents Crusaders from getting into 8th level stances - and Immortal Fortitude seems good enough for even a feat-starved Crusader who doesn't have room for Martial Stance to wait for. Especially considering the mediocrity of the 5th and 6th level stances.

Is it feasible or just ridiculous to just leave that stance slot open until 8th level stances are available?

FINE handbook - tremendously useful to my newborn campaign!

yours,
aram

Cieyrin

2011-05-13, 12:58 PM

I can't find anything besides a lack of patience that prevents Crusaders from getting into 8th level stances - and Immortal Fortitude seems good enough for even a feat-starved Crusader who doesn't have room for Martial Stance to wait for. Especially considering the mediocrity of the 5th and 6th level stances.

Is it feasible or just ridiculous to just leave that stance slot open until 8th level stances are available?

FINE handbook - tremendously useful to my newborn campaign!

yours,
aram

Like most things in 3.5, you have to fill the slot when you get it, you can't just leave it open till later.

Firechanter

2011-05-14, 01:09 AM

That's the probably single most popular houserule concerning Martial Adept classes, however, allowing to delay a stance slot until it becomes useful.

It's really ridiculous that a single-classed adept can't use a 5th-level class feature until level 8 or even 10 (Warblade). That's like telling a Sorcerer "Why sure, Fly is a 3rd level spell, and it's on the Sorcerer spell list, but you mustn't take it before 9th level anyway. Unless you burn a feat".
The fact that class features are accessed _earlier_ by multiclassing out is also pretty much unprecedented, at least no other examples comes to mind.

The option to buy a stance at the appropriate level with a feat also just adds insult to injury. Again, you shouldn't have to pay extra for what is your own native, exclusive class feature, and adepts are feat-starved enough already.

Here the experimental nature of ToB really shows, and the absence of errata really hurt. I can only recommend to houserule.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-05-14, 01:31 AM

Hazzardevil

2011-05-15, 03:32 PM

I think Crusader's weren't made well to begin with.

Out of 14 Class features, 6 are a single class feature which gets improved compared to SS or WB.
Their stance progression is just plain wonky, they can't get 9th level ones staying pure or without a feat and their class features are obviously inferior to WB and Swordsage.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-15, 03:39 PM

Swordsages and Warblades can't get 9th level stances either, because they don't exist.:smallconfused: You'd be correct that they can't get 8th level stances naturally, though.

AslanCross

2011-05-18, 06:47 PM

Are there any guides on how to build Crusader/Cleric multiclasses? I'm thinking of one that focuses on the casting side, while using turning feats. What PrCs are good for this? I was looking at Mythic Exemplar. While it doesn't get 10/10 casting, it does get some pretty good daily (Su) spells. One of the paths even gets haste.

Lateral

2011-05-18, 06:50 PM

Take Ruby Knight Vindicator, since it advances both. You don't have to cheese it up, it's still strong even if you don't abuse Divine Impetus.

Talya

2011-05-18, 07:25 PM

I'm trying to understand your dislike for Foehammer compared to Mountain Hammer Strike. Reading and rereading them, there is one and only one difference between them (definitely in mountain hammer strike's favor, though) -- Mountain Hammer overcomes both DR and hardness against objects, whereas Foehammer only overcomes DR. While this is enough to make the difference as to which one you'd take, i'm not seeing any other major differences. The both do the exact same thing - standard action strike, +2d6 damage, ignore DR.

Private-Prinny

2011-05-18, 07:40 PM

Firechanter

2011-05-18, 07:42 PM

Mountain Hammer is the Adept's substitution for a lockpick. Also, you can sunder with it. The only reason why you might want to take Foehammer instead regardless would be if you absolutely need more Devo maneuvers to fill prereqs. Whereas Stone Dragon has only a handful of useful maneuvers and most of them have no prereqs. Mountain Hammer is one of them, though.

Talya

2011-05-18, 07:51 PM

I see.

I actually took Martial Study: Foehammer on a bard recently. (Primarily to open up intimidate as a class skill for doomspeak. And the bard is Gishy so it's not a terrible strike for her.) I just wanted to make sure there was nothing wrong with the maneuver i was somehow missing.

Lateral

2011-05-18, 07:53 PM

It's worth noting that both of them age pretty well, so if you're dipping Crusader taking both is a viable choice. With both, you can bypass DR pretty much all the time since at any given time you'll probably have at least one of the two readied.

PollyOliver

2011-05-18, 08:05 PM

So, I'm playing a crusader 5 right now whose basic goal in life is to join the priesthood. Assuming she manages to accomplish this at some point, is there any RKV (or any other cleric/crusader) build that works decently having taken five levels of crusader already?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-18, 08:28 PM

PollyOliver

2011-05-18, 08:53 PM

All RKV builds work good. Seriously. It's like tier 0.

Okay, but assuming I don't intend to go nuts with the swift actions, will a couple levels of cleric and then into RKV be at least as useful as the delay in maneuver progression will be annoying?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-18, 08:55 PM

Okay, but assuming I don't intend to go nuts with the swift actions, will a couple levels of cleric and then into RKV be at least as useful as the delay in maneuver progression will be annoying?

Yes it will. You lose a maneuver, and have one less IL, but you get nearly full spellcasting.

PollyOliver

2011-05-18, 09:01 PM

Yes it will. You lose a maneuver, and have one less IL, but you get nearly full spellcasting.

True. Though honestly, I don't know if I have the wisdom score to support it, and mythweavers is down, so I can't check. :smallannoyed: Ah well, I guess that's what they made the periapt of wisdom for.

Draz74

2011-05-18, 09:01 PM

Actually, Foehammer does have an advantage over Mountain Hammer -- it lacks that ridiculous "must be touching the ground" requirement that all Stone Dragon maneuvers technically have.

Essence_of_War

2011-06-09, 02:10 PM

Do you need anything on multiclassing or sample builds?

Private-Prinny

2011-06-09, 02:21 PM

Do you need anything on multiclassing or sample builds?

Multiclassing more than anything else. But I update less often than VGCats, so it probably won't be put up anytime soon.

Essence_of_War

2011-06-09, 02:22 PM

But I update less often than VGCats
Amused :smallbiggrin:

I'll see if I can get some stuff together.

I love these ToB handbooks.

Amphetryon

2011-06-13, 06:43 AM

Essence_of_War

2011-06-19, 02:35 PM

Multiclassing with the Crusader:

I'll organize the sections below into what neat stuff you can get from a dip, some useful dip sizes, and then thoughts on the usefulness/efficiency of said dip. It won't be exhaustive, but it will be ones that I think are useful to note. I'll organize the classes into Base Class Core, Base Non-Core, and Prestige. I'll probably only mention good/useful saves when they're in areas the Crusader is weak or could use improvements in.

A few general thoughts first, keep in mind the magic number "6". If you take more than 6 levels outside of Crusader that don't directly boost your Crusader IL, you won't be able to get 9th level maneuvers. Also keep in mind the magic ratio "1/2", you get 1 point boost to your IL for MOST non-crusader classes. As a result, even numbererd dips are often preferable to odd numbered. Finally, because of the funkiness of the Crusader's stances known, it is a really good idea to take a sufficient dip that IL=5 lines up with a stance known. Even straight crusaders don't get Thicket of Blades until level 8, a good way to do this is to extract maximum value from a 6 level dip (IL=3) then take 2 Crusader levels (IL=5) so that the 2nd stance known at Crusader 2 can be used for Thicket of Blades. Alternatively, RKV gets a stance known at first level and Cleric2/Crusader3/RKV1 is IL 5 :smallbiggrin:

Base Classes, Core:

Barbarian

You're here either for pounce, Rage, or for ACFs with full BAB layered on top.

1 - Gets you Rage and Fast Movement OR Pounce with CChampion ACF OR Blind-Fight w/ SRD Dragon Totem.

2 - Gets you Uncanny Dodge OR Improved Trip w/ SRD Wolf Totem

The 1-level CChampion is good if you need pounce, but the Crusader usually isn't built as a charger. The dragon totem ACF is fine if you're planning on taking Pierce Magical Concealment and you need help getting the pre-reqs.

The 2-level dip is EXCELLENT if you're planning on building a tripper. Normally, the trip line is Combat Expertise->Imp Trip->Knockdown, but the wolf totem gets you Imp Trip as a bonus feat, Knockdown only requires Imp. Trip, so the two level dip is effectively 2 bonus feats that allow you to trip without the requisite int13+ for Combat Expertise!

Cleric
You're here for turn attempts, casting, and good saves.

1 - Cleric is front loaded, this gets you all of the above. If you don't like the domain spells, you have the option for taking devotion feats instead. This can be extremely useful.

2 - Low marginal value, does get you an extra point of BAB and saves.

Cleric is an excellent choice even if you don't plan on going into the RKV (dicussed below). If you aren't going that route, sell your domain casting for devotion feats.

Fighter
You're here for bonus feats or Dungeon Crasher ACF w/ full BAB.

1 - Gets you a bonus feat.

2 - Bonus feat OR DungeonCrasher 1

6 - Bonus feat OR DungeonCrasher 2

A large or powerful build Crusader can take the Knockback feat to make bullrushes very effective. If you're going this route, staying for all 6 levels might be a good choice. If not, 1 or 2 levels gets you exactly what you need, and marginal benefit from higher level dips is very low.

Monk
You're here for bonus feats, excellent saves, and access to evasion.

1 - 2 bonus feats (imp Unarmed and either Imp. Grapple or Stunning Fist) + save boost!

2 - Combat Reflex OR Deflect Arrows, Evasion, better saves!

Monk can be good if you need evasion quickly for some reason, or if you really want to be an unarmed/grappling crusader. Fighter or Wolf-totem barbarian is much better if you're not already committed to being unarmed. There is one other corner case, a Crusader (Dragonborn, Goliath or Half-Giant perhaps?) with a low dex can get combat reflexes without having to meet the pre-reqs and then boost their dex with spells/magic items later to extract benefit from the feat. It's good to know about.

Paladin
You're here for Divine Grace, turning and partial casting wrapped up with full BAB.

2 - gets you divine grace as well as a handful of other potentially useful abilities

4 - gets you turning, casting, as well as Aura of Courage and Divine Health

I'd only go for 4 if you're using this as an entry for RKV, the 2-level dip is fine if you have a high cha, but be aware that it doesn't stack with your Crusader class feature. Good to know about, not always an ideal choice, but alignment options in SRD at least make it somewhat flexible.

Ranger
You're here for combat style, and favored enemy along with good F/R saves, full BAB, and a boatload of skill points.

1 - gets you favored enemy which can turn into arcanists from CMage, and the save boost.

2 - gets you combat style and another save boost.

If you want to be a TWF crusader, this is a dip. Even non-TWF can benefit from the CMage ACF and the skill point boost!

Sorcerer
You're here for casting to get into JPM. Since Crusader extracts some benefit from Cha, this is often a stronger choice than Wizard.

1 - Spellcasting + will save boost

4 - 2nd level spells necessary for JPM

If your DM allows precocious apprentice, you only need 1-level here to get into JPM, if not, you'll be here for 4 long levels early on. If you're not going into JPM or Abjurant Champion, this really isn't an optimal place for you.

Base Non-Core:

Favored Soul

You're here for Cha based casting and saves.

1 - Casting + nice save boost

2 - marginal benefit is small, but you get the BAB + save boost here.

The FS is another potential entry point into RKV. Unfortunately, you need some way to get Turn Undead before you can get into RKV and the Sacred Exorcist route is not an option until 8th level! As a result, Paladin 4 is usually a more efficient RKV entry for Cha based casting, but if you're willing to burn a cleric 1 dip also, this could work out well.

OA/Rokugani Samurai

You're here for Ancestral Daisho, bonus feat and saves w/ full BAB

1 - Ancestral Daisho + save boost.

2 - bonus feat + marginal save boost.

Ancestral Daisho, if you can convince your DM to giving it to you with a weapon of your choice is easily worth a feat (see Ancestral Relic, BoED). The bonus feat and the improved saves are fine as well for the two level dip.

Hexblade

You're here for Mettle, Arcane Resistance, possibly casting as well w/ good will saves and full BAB.

2 - gets you arcane resistance, a will save boost and Hexblade's Curse

3 - nets you Mettle, (I think this is the fastest way to do so)

4 - you gain a familiar and cha based arcane casting.

All of these dips are plausible. 2/3 make for an excellent double dip with something like a paladin as Divine Grace/Arcane Resistance stack and Mettle is excellent. If you stay to 4, you get the casting which can make a viable entrance into JPM.

Knight
You're here for test of mettle, and Bulwark of Defense combined with will saves in a full BAB package.

3 - You pick up Bulwark of Defense, some improved Will saves and a number of potentially useful class features.

4 - Test of Mettle.

Bulwark of Defense is great for helping to control the battlefield if you don't already have something like Earth Devotion. Test of Mettle doesn't scale very well unless you're taking knight levels, but is excellent early on. This is a fine dip for either 3 or 4 levels.

Marshal
You're here for the auras, and save boost.

1 - gets you the minor aura, skill focus, and save boost

2 - nets you a small save bonus as well as a major aura.

If you're a tripper, getting Cha to Str checks from the minor aura is a great deal! There are reasons why you might want a major aura, but I don't find them very compelling.

Warblade
You're here for maneuvers and potentially the uncanny dodge lines w/ full BAB.

Since your Crusader IL feeds your Warblade IL and vice-versa, it is a little harder to point out strict level limits. The Warblade has access to some of the best counters and strikes in the game. The save counters are from Diamond Mind, and allow you to replace a save with a concentration check, the Crusader has Concentration on his class list so even if you only take a level or 2 of Warblade to get the Will/Reflex save counter and maybe Sudden Leap, you're looking at a significant improvement! Also, since between the Warblade and Crusader they know 6 distincy disciplines, this is a viable Master of 9 entry!

Swordsage
You're here for maneuvers, skill points, and saves.

Much of the same advice as the Warblade applies here. The save-replacment counters are still great. This is also a potential Master of 9 entry. Note that you won't get any benefit from the Swordsage's AC bonus at 2nd level unless you're wearing light armor.

Prestige:

Ruby Knight V(W)indicator
Fantastic prestige class that advances casting and maneuvers with the hotly debated Divine Impetus class feature. The class would be solid even if Divine Impetus didn't exist, but much stronger with that as an option. Depending on your entry point, you have several options with your last 5 levels. If came in via Paladin, you'll likely want to end with more Crusader levels to get 9th level maneuvers, if you entered via Cleric, it is possible to get to either 9th level spells or 9th level maneuvers but not both. You'll want to choose wisely depending on your game/party comp/optimization level.

There are at least 3 obvious methods of entry here. There is the paladin access, the maneuver focused, or the spell focused route. In that order:

1) Paladin 4/Crusader 1
2) Cleric 2/Crusader 3
3) Cleric 4/Crusader 1

Paladin access has the advantage of cha synergy with Divine Grace, while Cleric has the advantage of accessing higher level spells. Since the RKV gets a stance at it's first level, the Cleric2/Crusader3 entry gets Thicket of Blades at 6th level, which is the fastest possible path to Thicket of Blades. Paladin entry has the tempting option of Battle Blessing which allows you to quicken all of your std action paladin spells for free! This has fantastic syngergy with the RKV's Divine Impetus class feature. The Cleric entry has, of course, all of the usual DMM and full caster options.

Jade Phoenix Mage

This is an excellent Gish class, and the Crusader is probably the best martial adept entry point because of its access to Devoted Spirit maneuvers. There are a number of different entry options, sorcerer access cannot get 9th level spells, Wizard access will barely net 9th level spells at 20th ECL. It's 1st level class features are great primarily because you get an Arcane Strike equivalent

1) Crusader1/Wizard5
2) Crusader2/Sorcerer4
3) Crusader4/Sorcerer2
4) Hexblade4/Crusader1/AbjurantChampion5

The first two entry methods are obviously best for those trying to get the highest level spells, the 2nd and 3rd are potential sorcerer entry without/with access to Precocious Apprentice. I include it as an option because option 3 is probably the "worst" in terms of sorcerer/wizard spell progression and is actually a less "powerful" entry method.

More interesting is option 4. Hexblade gets arcane casting, allows you to cast in light armor, Arcane Resistance and Mettle! Moreover, because both Crusader and Hexblade have full BAB, you qualify for Abj. Champion at 6, which if you take to 5 gives you CL = HD with the Hexblade, and advances your Hexblade casting sufficiently to qualify for JPM! If you want a fun melee character with a flair of magic that probably won't break your game, this could be a great choice.

Master of 9
To follow shortly.

Eternal Blade
To follow shortly

Deepstone Sentinel
To follow shortly

Private-Prinny

2011-06-19, 03:46 PM

Given how AWESOME Thicket of Blades is, do you have suggestions for how one might make a Crusader that has a lousy DEX?

For example, Dragonborn Darfellan is a reasonably popular melee chassis, but comes with a substantial DEX penalty. Is that too big a hindrance to the Crusader archetype?

You could still shield bash, but you would be hindered by a lack of TWF feats. The best option for a Dragonborn Darfellan would most likely be to try to attract attention and be a primary melee candidate with a two-handed weapon. Stances like Iron Guard's Glare, Press the Advantage and Immortal Fortitude remain effective no matter who's hands they fall into. The various charging maneuvers have good damage output. Several boosts can be good even without attacks of opportunity. Alternatively, you could try something unconventional, like grappling.

The short answer is no, it doesn't take you out of the picture. It just takes away one (very good) option.

And Essence of War, you have my eternal thanks.

Essence_of_War

2011-06-19, 10:01 PM

Heh heh, thanks!

I really like the ToB, and it's worth my time to make sure other people are able to extract as much delicious goodness from it that I have :smallbiggrin:

The best thing I figured out here is that between the wolf-totem barbarian and the monk, the Crusader has 2 really great tools for reducing his MAD if he's trying to be a tripper. Maybe it was obvious to everyone else, but I was happy to figure it out for myself. Best part is, even though their alignments are incompatible, you don't lose anything meaningful from dipping them both! :smallbiggrin:

Should have some of the prestige class stuff up tomorrow ish?

Also, if anyone has any good multiclassing tips/tricks that I missed (I have never sat down and figured out Incarnum for example, there may be something useful there!) or suggestions for really good Crusader prestige classes, please feel free to speak up!

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-06-19, 10:28 PM

I can't speak for much of Incarnum, but I do know that Totemist 2 offers some excellent natural attack choices with their Totem Chakra, but that may be better served to a Swordsage. Incarnate probably has some stuff, too, but I'd have to delve through all of those soulmelds to confirm just how useful they would be.

Soulborn offers nothing for four levels, so ditch it.

Lyons

2011-07-06, 07:44 PM

It makes my heart happy to see such well thought out discussion about 3.5 still being done to this very day. In fact, I liked it so much I finally registered to these forums I've long perused. This is my first post on giantitp, yet I've read the 3.5 D&D forums here for years.

I've almost always played an arcane caster and only recently decided to build a melee. Out of boredom I was looking to make an unarmed/unarmored ridiculously high AC build when I started seeing information about ToB. The more I read, the more fun and viable melee appeared even at high levels.

While working on this build, I've ran across a few notes of interest that may help out Crusaders or possibly even those using anything out of ToB. You will note a bit of it is focused on unarmed and unarmored as that was what I was going for before I even knew about ToB, however, a bit of it does not. Either way, most of it should be usable to at least some Crusader builds. A lot of it focuses on Con bonuses and Concentration checks as well. Con should not be ignored by a tank (or by anyone, really), and Concentration scores are a must if you pick up the tanktacular Diamond Mind.

One final item of note: Quite a bit of this was inspired by PersonMan's X Stat to Y Bonus thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) which is an excellent read if you haven't seen it already.

Base classes

Monk - SRD variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les)

You already have great information regarding monks in the handbook, however I think there is a lot of value out of the variant SRD monk fighting styles that hasn't been discussed in this thread as of yet. There are many fighting styles, aka paths, which essentially give you 8 different feat choices at levels 1, 2 and 6. This greatly increases your options and versatility from dipping monk even from only 1 or 2 levels. You can also get bonuses to skills at level 1 and unique abilities at level 6 that could be of use to some builds.

You get a total of 8 feat choices instead of 2 at levels 1, 2 and 6. By RAW it appears you can mix and match freely amongst paths. You also get 8 skill bonus choices at level 1 and 8 unique ability choices at level 6, although you have to stay on the same path to get and keep these. You do not have to meet the prerequisites to get these bonus feats! The only thing you lose in exchange for these feats are the default feat choices monks get. In fact, you don't even really lose those as you can still get these default choices with Denying Stance style and also Hand and Foot style. There is NO REASON to not use these variant fighting styles!

1st level feat choices: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Toughness or Weapon Finesse

Combat Expertise - Passive Way
Combat Reflexes - Invisible Eye
Dodge - Cobra Strike
Improved Grapple - Denying Stance or Classic (PHB Monk)
Power Attack - Overwhelming Attack
Stunning Fist - Hand and Foot or Classic (PHB Monk)
Toughness - Undying Way
Weapon Finesse - Sleeping Tiger

2nd level feat choices: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Mobility, Lightning Reflexes

Mobility - Cobra Strike
Combat Reflexes - Denying Stance or Classic (PHB Monk)
Deflect Arrows - Hand and Foot or Classic (PHB Monk)
Endurance - Undying Way
Improved Bull Rush - Overwhelming Attack
Improved Initiative - Sleeping Tiger
Improved Trip - Passive Way
Lightning Reflexes - Invisible Eye

6th level feat choices: Blind-Fight, Diehard, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Overrun, Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Spring Attack

Blind-Fight - Invisible Eye
Diehard - Undying Way
Improved Disarm - Denying Stance or Classic (PHB Monk)
Improved Feint - Passive Way
Improved Overrun - Overwhelming Attack
Improved Trip - Hand and Foot or Classic (PHB Monk)
Improved Sunder - Sleeping Tiger
Spring Attack - Cobra Strike

1st level skill bonuses: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Listen or Tumble. If you change paths, you lose this bonus forever.

Balance - Hand and Foot (Iron Heart, Stone Dragon)
Bluff - Passive Way
Concentration - Undying Way (Diamond Mind)
Escape Artist - Cobra Strike
Hide - Sleeping Tiger (Setting Sun)
Intimidate - Overwhelming Attack (Devoted Spirit)
Listen - Invisible Eye
Tumble - Denying Stance (Desert Wind)

6th-Level Bonus Ability - You MUST meet the prereqs by level 6 and you MUST take all 6 levels on the same path. Most of these are sub-par but a few seem usable. I can’t see a path that would be good to take 6 levels for in a Crusader build but I would love to be proven wrong about this.

Cobra Strike - The dodge bonus to Armor Class granted by your Dodge feat increases to +2. Prerequisites: Balance 4 ranks, Escape Artist 9 ranks.

Denying Stance - When fighting defensively or using the Combat Expertise feat, you gain a +2 bonus on grapple checks and disarm attempts. Prerequisites: Tumble 9 ranks, Combat Expertise.

Hand and Foot - You gain a +2 bonus on attacks of opportunity made against an opponent attempting to bull rush or trip you, and a +4 bonus on Dexterity or Strength checks to avoid being tripped or bull rushed. Prerequisites: Balance 9 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks.

Invisible Eye - When unarmed and fighting defensively, using Combat Expertise, or using the total defense action, increase the dodge bonus to Armor Class that you gain from using that tactic by 1. Prerequisites: Listen 9 ranks, Agile.

Overwhelming Attack - If you have used Intimidate to demoralize your opponent at any time within the previous 10 rounds, you gain a +4 bonus on Strength checks made to bull rush or overrun that opponent. Prerequisites: Intimidate 4 ranks, Perform (dance) 4 ranks.

Passive Way - You gain a +4 bonus on Strength checks made to trip an opponent who is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Prerequisites: Bluff 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Skill Focus (Bluff).

Sleeping Tiger - Once per round, when an opponent would be denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, the monk deals an extra 1d6 points of damage with a melee attack made with a light weapon. Any creature immune to sneak attacks is immune to this ability. Prerequisites: Hide 9 ranks, Power Attack.

Undying Way - When fighting defensively, using Combat Expertise, or using the total defense action, the monk gains damage reduction 2/-. Prerequisites: Concentration 9 ranks.

Binder - I am only mentioning Binder for one reason. With Improved Vestige you can bind the Dahlver-Nar Vestige and add 1/2 your Con bonus to AC as a natural armor bonus for 24 hours at a time. However, if you don't make a good pact you are supposed to roleplay not concentrating on the task at hand making you a tank with severe ADHD for 24 hours.

Prestige Classes

Deepwarden - (RoS 108, wizards.com (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4)) 9 level PrC

Requirements: These are a bit high IMO. It is skill intensive and you have to take the often lame Endurance feat in addition to having to play a dwarf unless you take Stoneblessed 3 (RoS 123), which isn’t the best PrC. Then again, having the option to take a dwarf only AND elf only PrC (or various other combinations) is entertaining and certainly abusable in the right hands.

Race: Dwarf.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Climb 5 ranks, Heal 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 ranks, Survival 5 ranks.
Feat: Endurance.

Merits: Full BAB, d12 hit die, 6 +int skills
1 - Track, Trap Sense
This is a boring level for many builds

2 – Stonewarden
Con bonus to AC instead of Dex if it's higher. Usable armored and shielded. Since it replaces Dex, you should have a max bonus to AC on all armor instead of max Dex. Assuming a starting dwarf Con of 20, levels into Con, a +5 tome and +6 enhancement item this yields a 38 Con (280 bonus hp at 20, +14 modifier). Unarmored and with a heavy shield, you are at 31 AC and still can benefit from buffs or magic items that add to AC bonus (mage armor, luminous armor, etc), deflection, natural, et al. This does bring up a question. If I am in +5 Full Plate (+13 armor bonus, +1 max Con bonus) and nothing else I have a 24 AC. If I were naked I would still have a 24 AC (10 +14 Con) which obviously is touch AC. In the full plate example, does my Con bonus still add to touch AC at all? Or is my touch AC now 11 since my max Con bonus is 1?

The rest of Deepwarden's abilities are "meh" IMO, except for a few.
4 - Uncanny Dodge (There are usually better ways to get this)
5 – Stubborn Mind (It is the same as a rogue’s Slippery Mind. It’s nice, but is it worth 3 more levels?)

Two final items of note regarding alternate class features: Deepwardens get Trap Sense (+X AC vs traps). There is a barbarian and rogue variant spell sense (CM 35) where if you have 1 point of Knowledge Arcana you instead get that bonus AC vs. spells. Seeing as you are in a dwarf-only PrC which already has racial bonuses vs. spells you just may be able to convince your DM to let you trade out trap sense for spell sense. Also, if you are going ranger you can change the ranger’s track for urban tracking then get regular tracking via this class.

Fist of the Forest (CC 80) - 3 Level PrC
Requirements: A bit more feat intensive than I'd like, but it's workable and they are all free with potential dips.
Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Skills: Handle Animal 4 ranks, Survival 4 ranks.
Feats: Great Fortitude (Warblade bonus feat), Improved Unarmed (Monk 1)
Strike, Power Attack (Overwhelming Attack Monk 1)
Special: Must gain approval as a fist of the forest by the leaders of a band of Guardians of the Green, then adopt the lifestyle of an animal.

The approval of the Guardians of Green is pure roleplaying. Living the lifestyle of an animal is trickier. You can't buy food, sleep indoors, etc. If you do on purpose, you lose class abilities for a bit but it's not hard to get them back.

Merits: Full BAB, d10 hit die
1 - Con to AC bonus, unarmed hit die increases one step (min 1d8), +10 ft speed, feral trance 1/day
Feral trance is rage-like, and gives us +4 Dex and +2 damage with claws and also a 1d6 bite attack +full Str mod. It stacks with rage if you have that too. The speed is always nice and the unarmed is nice if you are unarmed or for some reason don’t have a weapon in your hands.

Con to AC is the real beauty of the class. It works like a monk's AC bonus and stacks with Deepwarden, Swordsage and Monk! Must be unarmored and unshielded. In an extreme example, assuming you had at least Monk 1/Swordsage 2/FotF 1/Deepwarden 2 in your build and started with 20 Con (dwarf) and 18 Wis, boosted levels to Con, +6 enhancement items to both, +5 inherent to Con and +4 to Wis, you would have 38 Con (+14 bonus) and 28 Wis (+9 bonus). Since you get both bonuses twice to AC, that's a 56 TOUCH AC naked and unbuffed! You can still get level 9 maneuvers in this example.

2 - Uncanny Dodge, Untamed strike
Uncanny Dodge is always nice. Untamed strike is a monk's ki strike. If you already have that then it's a free ghost touch on your fists.

3 - Extra feral trance, scent
An extra feral trance isn’t bad. The real ability at this level is scent.

All levels are viable if you are unarmed, and just one level is all you need coupled with Deepwarden 2 if your Con is high. You really don't have a need for armor or shields if your Con bonus is through the roof, leaving those slots as well as both hands wide open.

Kensai - (CW 49) 10 Level PrC
Requirements: - The requirements aren't terrible.

Requirements:
Alignment: Any lawful.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Concentration 5 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks, Ride 5 ranks.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (any weapon).
Special: Must complete an oath of service (see sidebar) to either an overlord or an ideal.

Merits:
1 - Signature Weapon
This gives you a +1 enhancement bonus per class level, up to +10. Pay exp but you don't spend gold. If placed on natural weapons the cost is 100% + 10% per weapon. This means two fists is 120% total, or a thri-kreen's four is 140%. You can do silly tricks such as +5 defending on all natural weapons, getting +10 to AC on a two-armed humanoid or +20 on a four-armed race, or just put all the martial discipline enhancements on it. A Kensai 10 could have +1 AND all 9 martial disciplines on his signature weapon! Martial Discipline enhancements give you +1 to attack if you know maneuvers from that discipline, stack with each other, and increase to +3 each if you are using a manuever or stance of that discipline (also stack if from different disciplines).

A Kensai 10 that had maneuvers in all 9 disciplines and had +1 All Martial Disciplines enhanced signature weapon and was in a stance and using a manuever from another discipline would get +14 to attack. Throw in MoN dual stance this increases the attack to +16. Not using a maneuver or stance still can yield +10, and no manuever but being in a stance still gives us +12. Kensai 10 still lets you get level 8 maneuvers. The only downside to this ability is you have to use your signature weapon for your Kensai abilities to work so if you stop at 6 you can't get ever get more than a +6 bonus on your weapon and use your Kensai abilities. Even so, a weapon with all 6 martial discipline enhancements on it will be at least +6 to hit, +8 in a stance or using a maneuver, +10 if in a stance and using a maneuver of different disciplines and +12 if in dual stance using a maneuver of a different discipline than the stances.

2 - Power surge
+8 to str for 1/2 class level (round down). Have to pass DC 15 Concentration check, add +5 for each time you use it in a 24 hour period. Steady Concentration allows you to take 10 on Concentration checks always, so with a 23 ranks, a 38 Con (+14 bonus), a +15 competency item and taking 10 yields 62. This gives you 10 times in a day you can do it guaranteed with a possibility of 2 more times. This can basically give you yet another +4 to attack on top of your ridiculous +to attack possibilities as well as +4 damage per hit.

4 - Ki Projection
Untyped bonus of 1/2 class level to Bluff, Diplomacy (White Raven), Gather Information and Intimidate (Devoted Spirit). Increases to full class level bonus at Kensai 8.

5 - Withstand
Take Concentration check instead of Reflex and evasion applies. With the example above, you could "roll" unlimited 62 reflex saves in a row with evasion (armor rules apply). Even rolling them you don't auto fail on a 1.

6 - No special ability, but as a break point you can get +6 total enhancements to signature weapon and also level 9 manuevers. Six martial discipline enhancements on your weapon is at least a +6 to attack if you have maneuvers from those six disciplines, and can get up to +12 to attack. Both are epic +to hit bonuses.

8 - Instill
Can give another character up to your character level your BAB and/or saves for one hour. A Kensai 10 can give +10 BAB to the level 20 full BAB character (making him +30 BAB) then have a friendly warchanter sing Inspire Legion to give the entire party +30 BAB. Now imagine using your +1 All Martial Discipline Enhanced signature weapon with two stances and one manuever of different disciplines and you are at +46 to hit before adding other bonuses such as strength. If one of those stances was Aura of Perfect Order your first attack every round can be +57 to hit before strength and other bonuses. Keep in mind, if that if the instilled character dies you must roll a DC 5 + their HD or die, but that's really not a big deal to most builds. DC 25 Fort save or die? Please.

10 - Kensai Warlord

+1 Will saves, Concentration checks and attack rolls as a morale bonus to friendlies. This increases to +2 if they are lawful. You can also petition lower level kensais to help in a "reasonable manner". If your DM is insane and/or on drugs, you could petition level 8 kensais and hire/befriend a warchanter troupe. Now, have one kensai instill the +20 BAB character in your party, warchanter it up, have another instill, warchanter again, repeat. I wouldn't be surprised if errata, custserv or the sage ruled against this, but it appears to work RAW. I doubt many DMs would let it fly, however.

Putting it all together

High AC
So long as you find armor and shield bonuses from spells or magic items that aren't specifically armors or shields you can still benefit from those as well sending your AC through the roof. Monk 1/Binder 1/Swordsage 2/FotF 1/Deepwarden 2 with Improved Bind Vestige Feat binding the Dahlver-Nar Vestige gives us a crazy high naked AC. If I am interpreting it correctly the mineral warrior template adds 3 natural armor that stacks with one natural armor bonus? Assuming this is true we can end up with a 44 Con (mineral warrior and dragonborn templates on a dwarf) and a 26 Wis we get:

10 base
17 Deepwarden 2
17 FotF 1
8 Monk 1
8 Swordsage 2
8 Dahlver-Nar Vestige
3 mineral warrior (if it stacks, RAW isn't 100% clear to me for this template)
------------------
71 AC naked with a 61 naked touch AC! If mineral warrior's 3 doesn't stack that's still 68 AC naked with a 58 naked touch AC. Sure, you're still getting hit on a 20 every time but you have 340 bonus hp at 20 to soak that up, not to mention several tricks to not fail saves and to delay death for a bit.

Also, even in this ridiculous example you still can get 12 martial adept levels yielding level 8 manuevers. You also still have room for armor bonus, shield bonus, deflection bonus, dodge bonuses, etc. The only non-stackable bonus in the above example was natural. This doesn’t appear to be a great build IMO at least as I have it, but I find it entertaining nonetheless.

Lockdown Build: Meatshield

Note: This build was inspired from "Can't Touch This" on PersonMan's X Stat to Y Bonus thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732).

Here is what I have so far:

Dwarf

32 point buy would look something like this:

Str 12 (or 16)
Dex 16 (or 12)
Con 20 (ends up 38)
Int 10 (only for skill prereqs to PrCs)
Wis 8 (dump)
Cha 6 (dump)

Below are the classes I want in the build, however, they most likely aren't in the order one should take them. I haven't sat down to do the math to optimize order of leveling yet and will update when I do so. I could use some advice here for sure if anyone has the inclination.

Fighter 1/Monk 2/Crusader 3/Warblade 6/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Master of Nine 5

Required Feats for PrCs - Adaptive Style, Dodge, Blind-fight, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Power Attack

Five of these feats are obtained for free in the build. Here is an example of getting five of those feats for free in the build and isn't optimized as of yet:

Monk 1 (Overwhelming Attack style) - Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2 (Sleeping Tiger style) - Improved Initiative
Fighter 1 (Fighter bonus feat) - Dodge
Warblade 5 (Warblade bonus feat) - Blind Fight

The remaining 3 can be picked up from leveling leaving us 4 remaining feats: Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, Stormguard Warrior, Robilar's Gambit. There are definitely a few other feats I would like to throw in here, but we are feat starved due to the PrCs.

Pros:
+19 BAB
Decent at lockdown
Con - 38 (+14 bonus)
HP - 482 max, 394.5 - 396.5 average depending on starting class
High naked touch AC and has armor and shield slots open as well as all named armor bonus types open
Base - 10
38 Con - 28
18 Wis - 4
Total - 42 unbuffed and naked touch AC with no named armor bonus types
Can reroll one saving throw per day
Improved uncanny dodge
Evasion
Can know maneuvers from all disciplines and stances from all disciplines except desert wind and setting sun
Dual stance 10 rd/day
Feral trance 1/day up to 17 rds
30ft speed as dwarf
+2 to attack with any strike and +X to damage with any strike = to number of different disciplines readied at the start of day (up to +9)
Still a lockdown threat unarmed, naked and in an AMF
Level 9 maneuvers
High Concentration rolls - Great for Diamond Mind
High Fort save - 33 Fort with a 38 Con
A few other minor things

Cons:
Feat starved and a few crappy feats are required in prereqs
Level 15 is the earliest for Robilar's Gambit due to monk levels and you have to wait to level 18 to choose one of the four freely chosen feats, all of which are useful far earlier than level 18
High skill prereqs. You can still max out a few skills including Concentration
A bit MAD
Will save of 13 and reflex of 9 before ability modifiers. This can be helped greatly with Diamond Mind counters and also Aura of Perfect Order stance
I'm sure there are more. If they are pointed out to me I will add them

This build is feat starved mainly due to MoN's ridiculous feat requirements. I want to keep Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest due to flavor reasons and to maximize benefit from his high Con. An entertaining item of note is that many classes have Hide and Move Silently as well as yielding a lot of skill points towards the end so Meatshield could sneak with his no armor check penalties and decent dex while still being a lockdown tank. This is one of the only tanks a rogue would take with him!

My main complaint is the sheer number of feats, especially crappy feats, required. Perhaps MoN could be traded for something else. Looking at the remaining martial adept PrCs I can't see another that would fit Meatshield, however there does seem to be potential value in spending those 5 levels in one or more of the three martial adept base classes. What do you think is the viability of this build as is? Remember, this is my first melee build so any and all help is not only appreciated but probably necessary.

I haven't added any templates but if I did I would likely add Dragonborn. With it's +2 Con and -2 Dex that stack with your racial adjustments you end up with 20 hp, +2 naked touch AC and +1 to Concentration checks but lose out on one AoO a round. This could be somewhat mitigated if Dex is high enough already and you have Stormguard Warrior. Not to mention you can choose an aspect and they are all decent choices, my favorite for this build being Aspect of Mind for blindsense. Mineral Warrior is nice but not worth the +1 LA, which I believe does not increase initiator level or BAB at all.

It has been a while since I've delved deep into D&D. I most likely have made a few mistakes in this post. If so, please correct me and I'll update the information. Also any advice is much appreciated if anyone has the time. If not, I understand.

Torvon

2012-01-28, 08:32 PM

Quick question: it looks like I can retrain one maneuver at Crusader level 4, 6, 8, 10 etc.

What happens if you only take 4 Crusader levels and then go e.g. a martial prestige class?

Thanks

Torvon

2012-01-28, 08:39 PM

Quick question: it looks like I can retrain one maneuver at Crusader level 4, 6, 8, 10 etc.

What happens if you only take 4 Crusader levels and then go e.g. a martial prestige class?

Thanks

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-28, 08:44 PM

Quick question: it looks like I can retrain one maneuver at Crusader level 4, 6, 8, 10 etc.

What happens if you only take 4 Crusader levels and then go e.g. a martial prestige class?

Thanks

What's confusing? You can retrain at even-numbered crusader levels.

Torvon

2012-01-28, 08:49 PM

That means although I gain initiator levels with 50% per level, and could in theory buy and retrain really high level maneuvers and stances at some point, I can never use this high initiator level as long as I don't "class back" into Crusader?

That's the reason that is confusing to me. Why do you get 0.5 initiator level per class level that is not crusader if you can't use this for getting better maneuvers/stances?

ta-ta
T

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-28, 09:05 PM

averagejoe

2012-01-30, 01:57 AM

The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.