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View Full Version : Spending XP~ A river now with canals



Tvtyrant
2010-12-30, 11:40 PM
I have been thinking about the uses of XP in D&D (especially 3.5). You gain certain attributes when you get to a certain miles stone of XP (IE leveling) and you can then spend some XP to gain permanent advantages like a Golem or True Seeing.

This then brings up the question of balance; IE the only people who can trade XP for these bonuses are casters, so its an almost pointless side option (Golem for XP versus Planar Binding for free?).

But what if rather then having levels increasing when you hit benchmarks you bought the levels? IE what if XP was treated as a spending resource like gold; the gold doesn't make you stronger, the sword does. So you can buy a class level you meet the reqs for, buy as many feats as you can afford, or buy templates to stack on your character?

So what I am thinking is that class levels cost different amounts based on their tiers; a tier 1 could cost 1000 XP say, a Tier 2 800, and on down the line. However the levels cost exponentially more for each numeric increase; a Tier 5 level 1 costs a mere 100 XP, but the 2 level costs 1,000 xp, and so on down the line. Thus a Tier 5 would be level 2 when a Tier 1 is level 1, but the cost of a level 3 Tier 5 would be enough that he wouldn't outstrip the Tier 1. Instead he might buy a pair of feats that would complete a useful feat tree, or a LA 1 Template that makes him more powerful.

Eldan
2010-12-30, 11:46 PM
A few problems with that:

With this system, taking levels in 20 classes is often better than taking 20 levels in one, especially for classes that have no scaling features. If, for the same cost, you can be a fighter 1/barbarian 1/monk1/ranger1/warblade 1/swordsage1/binder1/every other melee class I can think of 1, or a fighter 4, you go with the first option. Just stack all the tier 3-5 classes you can think of and you'll be epic before your single-class party members hit the teens.

Casters, on the other hand, still stay with one class.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-31, 03:38 AM
Well you could also make the cost of buying any level increase by a similar amount. So say a level 3 Binder adds a level of Fighter to reduce the level cost: it would cost the same as a fourth level of Fighter would instead of as much as a first level of Fighter. You would still be getting first level abilities, just at the fourth level cost. Therefore dipping a cheaper Tier is still cheaper, but no cheaper then just playing a lower Tier is.

Dante & Vergil
2010-12-31, 04:35 AM
They had an idea similar to this in Dreamscarred's Complete Control, but there were no classes, just different abilities you could take.

IcarusWings
2010-12-31, 11:01 AM
Yeah, this sort of thing is actually very common in non-d20 RPGs, nWoD and Exalted for example, just off the top of my head. Those systems usually just let you buy the abilities straight up rather than buying class levels though. More like just buying a load of powerful feats.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-31, 04:53 PM
Hmmm, but then I would have to learn a completely different rule set :P

NichG
2010-12-31, 07:25 PM
I'm in a campaign that basically has something like this. Everything is based on an XP economy. We can buy:

Stat points (2000xp per)
Feats (3000xp per)
Epic feats (10000xp per)
Skill points (250xp per)
Hitpoints (100xp per)
Items (6% of the market price in xp)
Personal demiplanes (100xp per 100ft cube)
Class abilities of any class or PrC (5000xp per minimum level that class ability could be achieved at)
Total character rebuild (10% of current xp)

Also we can actually take levels in the normal way. There are several other custom things we can buy with xp as well.

Needless to say, it makes for a fairly high-powered game, but one with a lot of customization and versatility. One thing it does that I like is that you don't have to plan ahead very far for prestige class entry - you can just buy the feats/skill ranks/etc you need on demand when you want to go that direction, so characters have tended to change their direction of growth a lot over the campaign.

One thing to keep in mind is that very little beats levels for gaining hitpoints, so something like this can lead to exaggerated glass cannon PCs.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-31, 08:37 PM
Yay! Characters whose HP makes actual sense! (Why would a level 3 wizard have as much HP as a level 1 Barbarian? He isn't training to get tougher!)

Hmmm, how much do you think templates would cost to apply? I was thinking Size Change=5,000 XP per size alteration, and LA buyoff would be exponential per ECL increase (ECL 1 = 1,000; ECL 2 = 10,000 etc)

NichG
2010-12-31, 08:58 PM
Size alteration should cost a lot, really, since it comes with free stat alterations. By this system, a size category might be 24000xp or more (+8 Str, +4 Con for starters, not counting things like reach or natural armor)

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 05:58 AM
It would make LA on Templates easier:
Flying: A amount of XP
Undead Traits: B amount of XP
Extra HP: C amount of XP
Template: A+B+C = D

NichG
2011-01-01, 12:39 PM
Synergies and anti-synergies make it a bit tricky. You basically gain some amount of power from not having to buy things together, and from being able to optimally mix and match. Then again, perhaps it'd be good to take that meta-balance out. Some things do scale with level (e.g. the spell-like abilities you get from half-elemental, etc races) though I guess you could pay for each level of spell-like separately. I don't know how much I'd charge for the [Fire] subtype, which gives you an immunity and a vulnerability (and is available for mere gold thanks to a certain spell).

For example, in that particular campaign we can take templates as LA as normal. We also have found an ability that lets us buy other abilities piecemeal, but at a much inflated price. Immunity to transformation, for example, was 30000xp, but could probably be purchased as part of a +1 LA template for less. I imagine other immunities would cost about the same, even if there are cheaper ways to acquire them. We haven't actually used it much, so we don't know the behind the screen pricing system for that one.

Using fixed prices like this, I think you'd get a transition between low levels where any immunity is just out of the question to pay for, and high levels where everyone has everything because the xp budget of those levels has risen above the costs. Then again, I guess that's not much different than when you have casters who can dump five castings of chained energy immunity or something on the party.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 07:29 PM
For scaling effects what about this:
Gained XP Pool: How much XP you have earned in total.
Spent XP Pool: How much XP you have spent on your Character
Spending XP Pool: How much XP you have earned but not Spent
for every X amount of XP points in your Spent XP Pool increase Y variable by Z.

Example: Flying
Prerequisite: 6,000xp in your Gained Pool
Cost: 3,000xp from your Spending Pool
Benefit: 0foot fly speed, no maneuverability (unable to fly)
Scaling: Every 3000xp in your Spent Pool increase fly speed by 5feet and increase maneuverability by 1 step

Character X:
Gained: 6,000
Spent: 2,000
Spending: 4,000
He buys Flying for 3,000 Spending XP
Gaind: 6,000
Spent: 5,000
Spending: 1,000
Character X now has 5-foot fly speed with poor maneuverability because his Spent pool is over 3,000 (first upgrade) but below 6,000 (second upgrade)

NichG
2011-01-03, 03:41 AM
That sort of goes in the opposite direction than I was thinking, i.e. that its now really really advantageous to buy everything at high levels when XP numbers are generally higher.

How about if every character has a very small number of intrinsic ability slots, say 2, and abilities can be replaced with newer ones. Combined ability packs can however be constructed, though additional abilities are priced according to an increasing multiplier (x2,x3,x4,... sorted from most expensive to least):

60' Perfect Flying = 4000xp
Immunity to [Element] = 3000xp
At will Mage hand = 500xp

Flying + Mage hand = 4000xp + 2*500xp = 5000xp

Flying + Mage hand + Immunity to Fire = 4000xp + 2*3000xp + 3*500xp = 11500xp

If you totally replace an ability, you lose the spent XP (or perhaps 50% of it or something), but if you add an ability to an existing slot the amount you've already paid goes towards the cost (so it'd only cost 1000xp to add Mage Hand to flying). Upgrading an ability (say going from Resist Fire 10 to Immunity to Fire) would also let you keep the XP you've already spent.

That would encourage a few signature abilities without everyone becoming an identical grab-bag of the best racial abilities. At higher levels people would tend to have a few immunities rather than a large number of resistances. If you want these to expand as the game progresses, you could make the number of slots level dependent (start at 1 slot and add 1 slot every 5 levels or something) or just make it so an extra slot can be purchased for a LOT of xp (e.g. 25000xp for an extra slot).