LGBTAitp - Part Eleven

[Jacklu]

Welcome, one and all.

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTAitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormaitivity.

Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe :smallsmile:)

If you would rather be anonymous when asking for advice or sharing your story or views, you can use the address below to send a message to be posted in this thread via proxy.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the last few threads, where much of use or interest may be found:
LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

*modified from the original.

[Jacklu]

New thread already! Sorry for swooping in with the new thread so soon after the last hit fifty, but I have been distracted lately and wanted to be sure I didn't miss it on accident.

[turkishproverb]

We all know you're really just trying to disrupt my nefarious plans. :smallbiggrin:

[Da Beast]

How come women get all the good drinks? I'm drinking coconut rum with orange juice right now, and it's delicious. My brothers always trying to make me drink some Jameson, and while I like Irish accents as much as everyone else on earth, I'm not a fan of whiskey. Also, I'm pretty sure that whatever comedian said that drinking wine coolers would make you grow a vagina was lying. If that worked I'd guzzle a six pack right now. And then another one to celebrate. And then another one for good measure. *broods*

[Derjuin]

How come women get all the good drinks? I'm drinking coconut rum with orange juice right now, and it's delicious. My brothers always trying to make me drink some Jameson, and while I like Irish accents as much as everyone else on earth, I'm not a fan of whiskey. Also, I'm pretty sure that whatever comedian said that drinking wine coolers would make you grow a vagina was lying. If that worked I'd guzzle a six pack right now. And then another one to celebrate. And then another one for good measure. *broods*

I think I'd do the same :smalltongue:

I have to agree, though. My family keeps trying to get me interested in beer and stuff and I just wanna be left alone with my rum and fruity drinks that taste great and don't make me gag each time I smell them.

[Serpentine]

My Boy likes girly cocktails :3
...
He's probably gay, isn't he :smallsigh:

[Derjuin]

My Boy likes girly cocktails :3
...
He's probably gay, isn't he :smallsigh:

He just has good taste :smallcool:

-------

My friends have decided to give me a new nickname. "Pseude", pronounced "sood". They say it's "Pseudo-dude" because I'm not really a guy...it made me happy a bit :smallbiggrin:

[unosarta]

My Boy likes girly cocktails :3
...
He's probably gay, isn't he :smallsigh:

There is an easy way to test that....

:smalltongue:

[golentan]

Sadly, that makes you in good, manly company. You know what everyone knows to be a real man's drink? The sort of thing that gets you up for kicking some poor sap in the particulars even when you've got no legs? Grog. Good old fashioned pirate grog. Fierce enough to... wait, it was what?

You know what grog was? Rum, citrus, and sugar. Sometimes other fruit if sugar weren't available: strawberries or bananas, say. Pirates invented the daiquiri. Girly drink my left colon!

[turkishproverb]

Carryover from the last thread:


Well then, it must needs be a competition.

I think you just murdered grammar and buried it in your basement.

[Serpentine]

You haven't heard "must needs" before?

[turkishproverb]

You haven't heard "must needs" before?

"must needs be" was the issue. :smallannoyed:

[Serpentine]

That too. You've never heard it before?

Tada! (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010817)

[Da Beast]

Sadly, that makes you in good, manly company. You know what everyone knows to be a real man's drink? The sort of thing that gets you up for kicking some poor sap in the particulars even when you've got no legs? Grog. Good old fashioned pirate grog. Fierce enough to... wait, it was what?

You know what grog was? Rum, citrus, and sugar. Sometimes other fruit if sugar weren't available: strawberries or bananas, say. Pirates invented the daiquiri. Girly drink my left colon!

I think your overlooking the possibility that all pirates where pre-op transsexuals. Also, to whoever mentioned beer earlier, I love beer as well. It just so happens that some of my favorite beers are the fruity ones or the chocolate bock Sam Adams makes from time to time. If you ever have a chance to try chocolate bock, I heartily endorse it. The stuff they started putting in the winter sampler pack isn't quite as good as the litter bottles they used to sell, but it's still pretty damn tasty.

Also, If I still have the presence of mind to correct my spelling and grammar errors can I truly claim to be drunk?

[golentan]

I wasn't a transexual. :smallfrown:

[Quincunx]

Well then, it must needs be a competition.

FOOD FIGHT!

. . .Or cocktail fight. I'm OK with that too.

That bit about the grog was both brilliant and plausible and nobody said how far "pre-" this was, it might be thousands of years in the future, right after you run into whatshisname from Quantum Leap and decide that yes, you would not only go gay for Scott Bakula, you'd go even further.

. . .no, I was watching MacGuyver at the time thankyouverymuch. :smalltongue:

[Da Beast]

Unless you've plundered a few ships in your day, your not a pirate either :smalltongue:

Edit:

FOOD FIGHT!

. . .Or cocktail fight. I'm OK with that too.

That bit about the grog was both brilliant and plausible and nobody said how far "pre-" this was, it might be thousands of years in the future, right after you run into whatshisname from Quantum Leap and decide that yes, you would not only go gay for Scott Bakula, you'd go even further.

. . .no, I was watching MacGuyver at the time thankyouverymuch. :smalltongue:

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm entertained none the less.

[golentan]

You know, I started to compose a joke reply, which turned into a serious reply, which turned into a philosophical musing on the relative merits of normal vs. absolute despair. And I'm sick of despair in all its forms having grappled with it for longer than you are physically capable of imagining, and so while I think a half page lecture followed by a dozen page debate on absolute despair and its influences on one's behavior would be a fascinating, useful, cathartic and edifying experience all around, I'm going to content myself with simply providing no real response.

[Quincunx]

"Incapable of imagining"? Dear sir, I am an acolyte of death and dreams and the uses thereof, thus I am insulted, and dash my cocktail into your face in lieu of a glove with which to strike you, like so! (dash!) (It was made with salt licorice, no way is that passing my tongue. :smallyuk: Every year we have this discussion with our friend, no, nobody else here likes salt licorice, please stop putting it in the vodka, polka* or nothing, tack.)

See? Cocktail fight. Now if all goes according to plan, matters should devolve into a mass make-amends orgy, or mass make-amends cuddle for the Asexuals who have been added to the acronym.

. . .then again, as I don't like alcohol to begin with, what do I care if it tastes like salted sick? A bitter drink would give me additional justification to only sip it, ingesting only the tiniest amount--ah, right. New Year's shots. Must go down in one gulp or it sets off the "ill luck for another year" rant of Herr Saltlakritsshot-or-two-or-three. :smallyuk:

*pig-shaped pink peppermint candy

[golentan]

Mmmm... Licorice liquor. The name so nice they slurred it twice. Also, if the intention was an orgy may I tentatively suggest a preferable manner? Namely chocolates? I prefer my orgies to be vomit free, and that tends not to happen with alcohol involved.

Anyways, I would have apologized on request had you not flung stinging liquid into my tender mucous membrane. Now you'll have to wait.

[Micha Sieling]

That too. You've never heard it before?

Tada! (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010817)

Holy crap I learned something today!

[Serpentine]

Nowai!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KvDFauTmm3g/TREPn9Z6heI/AAAAAAAAD94/5Uq8cc9J2U0/s1600/shocked-cat-21123.jpg

[CynicalAvocado]

Unless you've plundered a few ships in your day, your not a pirate either :smalltongue:

Edit:


I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm entertained none the less.

avocado has plundered a ship before.
and by plunder i mean, leapt from one boat to another and taken a wallet.
scout trip, we rented sailboats and had fun
i returned the wallet btw

[Delusion]

Ooh, a shiny new Lager, gin, beer and tequila thread!

[Murdim]

Ooh, a shiny new Lager, gin, beer and tequila thread!
I think it has already been discussed before on this topic, but... lager is a type of beer ! It doesn't work ! Plus, you're implying that all lesbians are actually bisexual, which is wrong and very degrading ! :smallyuk: :smallbiggrin:

[Dogmantra]

Ooh, a shiny new Lager, gin, beer and tequila thread!

...
What does the A stand for?
:smallcool:

[Amiel]

Absinthe?
Alcohol

[CynicalAvocado]

I think it has already been discussed before on this topic, but... lager is a type of beer ! It doesn't work ! Plus, you're implying that all lesbians are actually bisexual, which is wrong and very degrading ! :smallyuk: :smallbiggrin:

how does "Lager, gin, beer and tequila" imply that all lesbians are bi?:smallconfused:

[Heliomance]

So for many years, I've had on-and-off feelings that maybe I should have been female. They vary in strength, from nonexistant to a constant nagging feeling. My having a girlfriend for the last couple of months seems to have stifled them quite successfully, but now that we've split up, I'm not only not sure if they're returning, I'm not at all sure that I don't want them to return.

...if that makes any sense at all. I dunno.

[DeadManSleeping]

how does "Lager, gin, beer and tequila" imply that all lesbians are bi?:smallconfused:

Murdim's "logic" works as follows.

Lager is Beer.
L stands for Lager
B stands for Beer
-----------------
L stands for Lesbian
B stands for Bisexual.
QED Lesbians are Bisexual

[CynicalAvocado]

Murdim's "logic" works as follows.

Lager is Beer.
L stands for Lager
B stands for Beer
-----------------
L stands for Lesbian
B stands for Bisexual.
QED Lesbians are Bisexual

ah. i'm horrid with acronyms

EDIT in delusion's defense it is rather hard to find common names for alchoholic beverages that start with "L" (Lambrusco and Lagavulin), unless you want to go for mixed drinks too (long island iced tea). you could use liquor, but that's a catch all and stuff.

EDIT EDIT: why am i still talking?

[Heliomance]

Laphroiag (sp?)

[Serpentine]

We have this happen every single time this comes up. And it comes up almost every thread.

:sigh:

[Murdim]

... it wasn't intended to be any kind of serious :smallfrown: I thought the smilies were clear enough.

[Delusion]

I was reading another LGBT-thread on another gaming forum and watched as it got a constant influx of trolls, haters and bigots.

So allow me to say:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:lRkSikPUv-p6rM:http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8788/kittenlovethisthreadzh8.jpg&t=1

Its so awesome to have a flame free support thread. I do not think I could have coped without it :smallredface:

So Hugs for all!

[Beelzebub1111]

New Thread Time!

Setting up HD service is a nightmare! I swear to god.

[WarKitty]

Managed to acquire another pair of guy's pants last night, along with a plaid button-down flannel shirt. Didn't like any of the t-shirts they had left.

[Asta Kask]

And what did you do with the guy? :smallbiggrin:

[RaggedAngel]

I was reading another LGBT-thread on another gaming forum and watched as it got a constant influx of trolls, haters and bigots.

So allow me to say:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:lRkSikPUv-p6rM:http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8788/kittenlovethisthreadzh8.jpg&t=1

Its so awesome to have a flame free support thread. I do not think I could have coped without it :smallredface:

So Hugs for all!

The very best thing about this thread is the hugs.

We'll, that and the supporting community. But I'm partial to hugs. :smallsmile:

[Danne]

I was reading another LGBT-thread on another gaming forum and watched as it got a constant influx of trolls, haters and bigots.

So allow me to say:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:lRkSikPUv-p6rM:http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8788/kittenlovethisthreadzh8.jpg&t=1

Its so awesome to have a flame free support thread. I do not think I could have coped without it :smallredface:

So Hugs for all!

Clearly you need to drive the homosexual steamroller through their midst. It will solve all your problems. :smallbiggrin:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/literally/5.png

YAY! <3

*hug*

[Cobra_Ikari]

Managed to acquire another pair of guy's pants last night, along with a plaid button-down flannel shirt. Didn't like any of the t-shirts they had left.

I am ever so curious about how you look in masculine clothing. >.>


The very best thing about this thread is the hugs.

We'll, that and the supporting community. But I'm partial to hugs. :smallsmile:

That's what we're here for! =)


Clearly you need to drive the homosexual steamroller through their midst. It will solve all your problems. :smallbiggrin:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/literally/5.png

YAY! <3

*hug*

Does the steamroller crush them, or smooth them out into more tolerant people?

[Danne]

Does the steamroller crush them, or smooth them out into more tolerant people?

I think it depends on the person. Some are just so stiff they couldn't handle it. :smallwink:

[Derjuin]

So for many years, I've had on-and-off feelings that maybe I should have been female. They vary in strength, from nonexistant to a constant nagging feeling. My having a girlfriend for the last couple of months seems to have stifled them quite successfully, but now that we've split up, I'm not only not sure if they're returning, I'm not at all sure that I don't want them to return.

...if that makes any sense at all. I dunno.

*hugs for heliomance* It makes sense, I think. *offers more hugs*

[Lix Lorn]

See? Cocktail fight. Now if all goes according to plan, matters should devolve into a mass make-amends orgy, or mass make-amends cuddle for the Asexuals who have been added to the acronym.
(appears)
Did someone say orgy?
xP

Hugs are awesome! Mass hugs for all!

[Dihan]

Previously in the Dihan Dramas... I'll summarise. :smalltongue:

1) Met guy I liked who was also giving off signals
2) Did things that others would see as "coupley" (like cuddling up to eachother during films, holding hands, chatting into the early hours of the morning etc)
3) I get really stressed out and come off as clingy, scaring him off a bit. Leading to him saying "friends for now".

Now...

Well, right now I still think the official statement is still "friends" but we've been texting each other a lot over the Christmas period, mostly general stuff but I was also trying to be there for emotional support because his mother is really closed-minded and refuses to accept him for who he his. In some of the text messages, a number of times (quite sporadically I might add), he has left "x" at the end of messages... Yeah, I know what this may look like - I'm still hung-up over him and I'd probably say that I am too. I really do like him. Anyway, he's not the kind of person who ends messages with "x" so I doubt it's accidental, but as I've said, they've also been few and far between.

[Jokasti]

Clearly you need to drive the homosexual steamroller through their midst. It will solve all your problems. :smallbiggrin:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/literally/5.png

YAY! <3

*hug*

Link (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb63boqnBL1qdi0vp.png) because I'm sure it's too big.

[Da Beast]

So for many years, I've had on-and-off feelings that maybe I should have been female. They vary in strength, from nonexistant to a constant nagging feeling. My having a girlfriend for the last couple of months seems to have stifled them quite successfully, but now that we've split up, I'm not only not sure if they're returning, I'm not at all sure that I don't want them to return.

...if that makes any sense at all. I dunno.

I think the best advice anyone here can give you is to try talking to a therapist who specializes in gender identity issues. There's plenty of material you could read on the internet, but seeing a specialized therapist is going to be the best way to get some perspective on this. Also, *hugs*

[npc revolution]

Previously in the Dihan Dramas... I'll summarise. :smalltongue:

Snip

Now...

Well, right now I still think the official statement is still "friends" but we've been texting each other a lot over the Christmas period, mostly general stuff but I was also trying to be there for emotional support because his mother is really closed-minded and refuses to accept him for who he his. In some of the text messages, a number of times (quite sporadically I might add), he has left "x" at the end of messages... Yeah, I know what this may look like - I'm still hung-up over him and I'd probably say that I am too. I really do like him. Anyway, he's not the kind of person who ends messages with "x" so I doubt it's accidental, but as I've said, they've also been few and far between.


D'awww:smallsmile:. I reckon the way to play this is (maybe) to give x's back and see what happens. I wouldn't just ask him what he means 'cus that might scare him off again. The trick is to seem easy-going.

[Niezck]

Clearly you need to drive the homosexual steamroller through their midst. It will solve all your problems. :smallbiggrin:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/literally/5.png

YAY! <3

*hug*

That picture is genius mixed with win and epicness.

[Volos]

That picture is genius mixed with win and epicness.

I have to agree but add that there is a sick sense of humor mixed in, but there really isn't anything wrong with that.

Also, I'm Volos... completely new to the thread. Greetings all!

[Lix Lorn]

Hi, Volos!

If I may ask, which one of the letters are you, if any?

[Jacklu]

The trick is to seem easy-going.

No no no. The trick is to seem the exact opposite of what is appropriate. Like fighting fire with dynamite. You need to up the ante. Start stalking him around town, always looking away and whistling nonchalant like when he notices you there (so he doesn't realize you are following him but thinks you were just out for a nonchalant stroll). Next, go through his Facebook profile and "like" every single post. This is important, as it shows him that you two agree on just about everything. And lastly, and this is crucial, you need to climb into his bedroom window and just perch there watching him sleep every night, because if Twilight has taught me anything, it's that breaking and entering for the purpose of watching somebody sleep is about the most romantic thing in the world.

.....

No wait...

No, npc revolution was right. Easy going and suave is the way to go.


EDIT: NAMELESS!!! *flying glomp/kidnap* ... O_o Not Nameless! *lets go* Sorry bout that... Saw the grim reaper avatar and thought.... <.< *quietly returns to Nameless pit trap and waits*

[Danne]

Hi, Volos! Welcome to the thread!

[WarKitty]

So for many years, I've had on-and-off feelings that maybe I should have been female. They vary in strength, from nonexistant to a constant nagging feeling. My having a girlfriend for the last couple of months seems to have stifled them quite successfully, but now that we've split up, I'm not only not sure if they're returning, I'm not at all sure that I don't want them to return.

...if that makes any sense at all. I dunno.

Missed this post earlier. All I can say is join the club. This would be why I crossdress when I get the chance.

[turkishproverb]

I have to agree but add that there is a sick sense of humor mixed in, but there really isn't anything wrong with that.

Also, I'm Volos... completely new to the thread. Greetings all!

Hello. Nice to meet you.

[CynicalAvocado]

Clearly you need to drive the homosexual steamroller through their midst. It will solve all your problems. :smallbiggrin:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/literally/5.png

YAY! <3

*hug*

i <3 that image so much

[Beelzebub1111]

Have a Merry New Year everybody! (And a Pippen one, too.)

[turkishproverb]

Happy new Year!

*Dips and kisses the nearest male.*

[Beelzebub1111]

*is kissed*
Oh my...:smallredface:

[MoriHikari]

First: Happy new year to everyone!!:smallbiggrin:

Second: sorry I have not been very active recently...I've been dealing with alot

Third: The things I have been dealing with.
For a bit (awhile ago) I thought I was genderqueer, and I was comfortable enough as that. Then i decided that genderqueer wasn't enough and so I started to think I was trans, I even changed my gender here on the forums. I managed to become comfortable with the idea of being male, then suddenly wham! No longer comfortable with my self or my identity. So I go back to saying I'm genderqueer. Once again that lasts until I feel comfortable with it, and now I'm lost. I don't understand why I can't be comfortable with myself. Its like as soon as I like myself...I stop liking myself.

I keep telling myself that I really know what I am and I just need to come out to someone and it will stick...but what if it doesn't...Grrr! I'm just so lost.

I don't know if that made any sense but if anyone out there has had a similar experiance and found a way to overcome this type of thing...I would love some input.

[turkishproverb]

First: Happy new year to everyone!!:smallbiggrin:

Second: sorry I have not been very active recently...I've been dealing with alot

Third: The things I have been dealing with.
For a bit (awhile ago) I thought I was genderqueer, and I was comfortable enough as that. Then i decided that genderqueer wasn't enough and so I started to think I was trans, I even changed my gender here on the forums. I managed to become comfortable with the idea of being male, then suddenly wham! No longer comfortable with my self or my identity. So I go back to saying I'm genderqueer. Once again that lasts until I feel comfortable with it, and now I'm lost. I don't understand why I can't be comfortable with myself. Its like as soon as I like myself...I stop liking myself.

I keep telling myself that I really know what I am and I just need to come out to someone and it will stick...but what if it doesn't...Grrr! I'm just so lost.

I don't know if that made any sense but if anyone out there has had a similar experiance and found a way to overcome this type of thing...I would love some input.

Just relax, and try to notice your sensations. That's about all the advice you can get.


*is kissed*
Oh my...:smallredface:

Like I said, happy new year.:smallamused:

[Da Beast]

First: Happy new year to everyone!!:smallbiggrin:

Second: sorry I have not been very active recently...I've been dealing with alot

Third: The things I have been dealing with.
For a bit (awhile ago) I thought I was genderqueer, and I was comfortable enough as that. Then i decided that genderqueer wasn't enough and so I started to think I was trans, I even changed my gender here on the forums. I managed to become comfortable with the idea of being male, then suddenly wham! No longer comfortable with my self or my identity. So I go back to saying I'm genderqueer. Once again that lasts until I feel comfortable with it, and now I'm lost. I don't understand why I can't be comfortable with myself. Its like as soon as I like myself...I stop liking myself.

I keep telling myself that I really know what I am and I just need to come out to someone and it will stick...but what if it doesn't...Grrr! I'm just so lost.

I don't know if that made any sense but if anyone out there has had a similar experiance and found a way to overcome this type of thing...I would love some input.

Have you ever tried cross dressing? Cross dressing and transgenderism are not the same thing, but experimenting with one may help you get some perspective on the other. The first time I tried on a skirt it was almost a religious experience and it validated a lot of feelings I'd been struggling with.

Also, happy new year!

[DeadManSleeping]

First: Happy new year to everyone!!:smallbiggrin:

Second: sorry I have not been very active recently...I've been dealing with alot

Third: The things I have been dealing with.
For a bit (awhile ago) I thought I was genderqueer, and I was comfortable enough as that. Then i decided that genderqueer wasn't enough and so I started to think I was trans, I even changed my gender here on the forums. I managed to become comfortable with the idea of being male, then suddenly wham! No longer comfortable with my self or my identity. So I go back to saying I'm genderqueer. Once again that lasts until I feel comfortable with it, and now I'm lost. I don't understand why I can't be comfortable with myself. Its like as soon as I like myself...I stop liking myself.

I keep telling myself that I really know what I am and I just need to come out to someone and it will stick...but what if it doesn't...Grrr! I'm just so lost.

I don't know if that made any sense but if anyone out there has had a similar experiance and found a way to overcome this type of thing...I would love some input.

Are you in your teens/early 20s? If so, you may have that to blame for your rapidly changing identity. Changes on that score slow down after young adulthood.

Either way, here's a tip: stop trying to label yourself! It's obviously not giving you much help right now. Maybe some days you feel more like one thing than another, and that's totally okay. Just be you, be attracted to who you want to, and ask for the kind of attraction you enjoy. That's all a person should have to do.

[MoriHikari]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I am in my late teens early 20's so I know that that does have somthing to do with it.

As for crossdressing...I kind of already do that, I'm more comfotable in "male" clothes with my chest bound.

And with the labeling thing, I know its not helping me but I can't help myself. I'm the kind of person who has to make sense of themselves. like it doesn't bother me if other people don't lable them selves one way or another...but I feel like I need to. Otherwise I don't feel like I understand myself, and for me that is the worst feeling in the world.

[Volos]

Hi, Volos!

If I may ask, which one of the letters are you, if any?

I am a proud letter B, though since I am engaged to a wonderful woman I guess I could more be seen as an ally to the LGBTA community. I still enjoy the thought of men, I just happen to have fallen for an amazing woman.


EDIT: NAMELESS!!! *flying glomp/kidnap* ... O_o Not Nameless! *lets go* Sorry bout that... Saw the grim reaper avatar and thought.... <.< *quietly returns to Nameless pit trap and waits*

Umm... I'm not nameless. Though I have used that name before on other sites I have discovered that some people confuse me with the GiTP Nameless. So umm... sorry?


Hi, Volos! Welcome to the thread!

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:


Hello. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you as well. :smallsmile:

[DeadManSleeping]

Umm... I'm not nameless. Though I have used that name before on other sites I have discovered that some people confuse me with the GiTP Nameless. So umm... sorry?

You use an extremely similar avatar. Expect endless confusion.

[Lix Lorn]

I am a proud letter B, though since I am engaged to a wonderful woman I guess I could more be seen as an ally to the LGBTA community. I still enjoy the thought of men, I just happen to have fallen for an amazing woman.
Pretty sure you still count, but we're glad to have you either way!

Even though you aren't Nameless. :smallwink:

[Caustic Soda]

Happy new year everyone :smallbiggrin:! I hope you've had a good one, and/or a nice Christmas, too. I'm too tired to think of anything more constructive to say, but *hugs* to whoever wants them and *double hugs* to anyone feeling down :smallsmile:

@Volos-who-is-not-Nameless: Hey there, welcome to the thread.

[cycoris]

I am a proud letter B, though since I am engaged to a wonderful woman I guess I could more be seen as an ally to the LGBTA community. I still enjoy the thought of men, I just happen to have fallen for an amazing woman.

I don't see how that would make you "not count". You just happen to pass as straight most of the time. Clearly you need to wear a rainbow cape and lots of jewellery to compensate.

On the subject of passing for straight, there needs to be terminology to discuss the effect "passing" has on privilege and the way you're seen by society. Preferably not to the tune of ninja-gay. :smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

Are you in your teens/early 20s? If so, you may have that to blame for your rapidly changing identity. Changes on that score slow down after young adulthood.


Out of curiosity, about when would you say they slow down? Or does it vary from person to person?

[Lix Lorn]

Preferably not to the tune of ninja-gay. :smalltongue:
I'd say that anyone who gets called Ninja-gay should consider it a compliment.

(imagines rainbow coloured ninjas kickin' butt)

[Heliomance]

Missed this post earlier. All I can say is join the club. This would be why I crossdress when I get the chance.

Aye, crossdressing does feel strangely natural. And skirts are so comfortable!

[Beelzebub1111]

I wish I could be ninja-gay. I'm more like "Transparent-closet" bi/gay. When I came out to my best friend (as some of you may recall) She said "Yeah I kind of figured. It's why I feel so comfotable around you." Honestly it was a bit of a let down and made me wonder how many others know? should I even bother coming out to them if they probably figured it out anyways?

[Lix Lorn]

Well, my two best friends answered thus.

First friend:
Yeah, makes sense. I wondered.
Second friend:
Me: Hey, I found something out that solves two problems!
Them: You're actually a girl, but it's fine cause the girl you have a crush on is bi?
Me: ...

[npc revolution]

I accidentally got distracted by the gay ninja thing and before I knew it, I'd made this. Spoilered for big.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae25/npc_revolution/LGBTA-1.png?t=1293919804

[Da Beast]

Aye, crossdressing does feel strangely natural. And skirts are so comfortable!

I know! Why do pants even exist? None of the stores around my house carry much in the line of skirts during the winter and the stupid register girl gave me the weirdest look but whatever.

[Danne]

I know! Why do pants even exist? None of the stores around my house carry much in the line of skirts during the winter and the stupid register girl gave me the weirdest look but whatever.

'Cuz fighting in a skirt is awkward. :smallwink:

Also, why have I never heard of gay ninjas before, and where can I find some?

[DeadManSleeping]

Out of curiosity, about when would you say they slow down? Or does it vary from person to person?

Besides the number of most internal organs, pretty much EVERYTHING varies from person to person. Honestly, my sexuality settled down after I hit puberty, and it was never really very fluctuating in the first place. I'm kind of a lot more stable than the average person, though.

[npc revolution]

Also, why have I never heard of gay ninjas before, and where can I find some?

You can't find them, they find you. Then they probably flying-glomp you into next week or something.

[Jokasti]

I accidentally got distracted by the gay ninja thing and before I knew it, I'd made this. Spoilered for big.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae25/npc_revolution/LGBTA-1.png?t=1293919804

LGBTAQitp :smalltongue:
Or just *itP. //terrible programming joke

[npc revolution]

The Q is the purple one. Canon.

[Lix Lorn]

I accidentally got distracted by the gay ninja thing and before I knew it, I'd made this. Spoilered for big.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae25/npc_revolution/LGBTA-1.png?t=1293919804
Can I put that in my extended sig? Please?

[npc revolution]

Please do. :smallbiggrin:

[Heliomance]

TBH, i think the biggest problem I'd have with being a girl is the lack of pockets :P

[KenderWizard]

How come women get all the good drinks? I'm drinking coconut rum with orange juice right now, and it's delicious. My brothers always trying to make me drink some Jameson, and while I like Irish accents as much as everyone else on earth, I'm not a fan of whiskey. Also, I'm pretty sure that whatever comedian said that drinking wine coolers would make you grow a vagina was lying. If that worked I'd guzzle a six pack right now. And then another one to celebrate. And then another one for good measure. *broods*

I can't believe I missed a reference to Jameson! I, in fact, refuse to believe it, and I'm going to reply to it anyway! Hate to be so stereotypically Irish, but straight Jameson is my favourite alcoholic beverage. On the other hand, that's kind of stereotypically elderly-male Irish, so ... I don't know! Jameson is great, is what I'm getting at.

Heehee, the Jameson is straight! :smalltongue:


I accidentally got distracted by the gay ninja thing and before I knew it, I'd made this. Spoilered for big.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae25/npc_revolution/LGBTA-1.png?t=1293919804

This. Is. AMAZING!! :smallbiggrin:


I know! Why do pants even exist? None of the stores around my house carry much in the line of skirts during the winter and the stupid register girl gave me the weirdest look but whatever.

Because pants are great! I've recently started wearing men's trousers (specifically, stealing my boyfriend's!) and I really like them. I'm finding it harder and harder to cope without pockets. But I do like skirts too. They should just have pockets and be sturdy. Or else, huge and fabulous enough for me not to care!

Also, happy new year, everyone! *hugs*

[Vaynor]

Because pants are great! I've recently started wearing men's trousers (specifically, stealing my boyfriend's!) and I really like them. I'm finding it harder and harder to cope without pockets. But I do like skirts too. They should just have pockets and be sturdy. Or else, huge and fabulous enough for me not to care!

Get a kilt? :smallwink:

[Beelzebub1111]

Please do. :smallbiggrin:

Wait...if L is Red...then why is he a guy?

[npc revolution]

I added the text afterwards and didn't realise the full implications. :smallbiggrin:
I'll probably fix it eventually.

[Da Beast]

Because pants are great! I've recently started wearing men's trousers (specifically, stealing my boyfriend's!) and I really like them. I'm finding it harder and harder to cope without pockets. But I do like skirts too. They should just have pockets and be sturdy. Or else, huge and fabulous enough for me not to care!

Also, happy new year, everyone! *hugs*

Yeah, I'd probably miss pockets if I actually left the house in a skirt. But that's why women get purses and handbags, so it kind of balances out.


I accidentally got distracted by the gay ninja thing and before I knew it, I'd made this. Spoilered for big.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae25/npc_revolution/LGBTA-1.png?t=1293919804

This is awesome. I choose to believe that T is MtF. Of course, L has a masculine figure so maybe color doesn't coordinate to place in the acronym.

[DeadManSleeping]

I accidentally got distracted by the gay ninja thing and before I knew it, I'd made this. Spoilered for big.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae25/npc_revolution/LGBTA-1.png?t=1293919804

Why doesn't L have breasts? :smallconfused:

[unosarta]

G gets shuriken. Heck yeah!

Other than that, cool image. :smallbiggrin:

[KenderWizard]

Get a kilt? :smallwink:

You know, I had a kilt-style skirt (still do, actually) that I really liked, but - no pocket and too long. So, I got it taken up by a few inches, and kept the resulting length of fabric, and turned it into a pocket for it! It worked really well, but the pocket is no longer there, and I have no idea why... I hope I didn't just imagine this!


Yeah, I'd probably miss pockets if I actually left the house in a skirt. But that's why women get purses and handbags, so it kind of balances out.


It definitely doesn't! Pockets are by far the superior pouch. For a purse or handbag, that's a hand gone! You'll always need two hands for something at some point, and then you have to put down this thing with all your money and valuables in it. And you usually only get one or two pouch-spaces, while with a good jacket and pair of combats you can have 10 pouch-spaces or more! Even if the pockets are smaller, having many varied-sized pouch spaces is vastly preferable. For example, I shouldn't carry my phone and my Leatherman in the same pouch-space because the latter with scratch the former. I can carry them in separate pockets, but I need my handbag to be divided into convenient segments. And if you carry lots of things, your handbag gets heavy. And if you try get the best of both by mixing a dressy outfit with a practical coat, it kind of looks like you couldn't afford a "nice" coat to go with your dress so you're wearing your raincoat, even though the "raincoat" cost upwards of 100 euro and is amazingly practical, while you could get a dressy coat with no pockets (or fake pockets - don't get me started! :smallwink:) for 20 euro in Dunnes or Penneys.

... I didn't really realise how much this bothered me! This is quite cathartic! Sorry for being so verbose about it. :smallsmile:

[Da Beast]

Well here I was all excited to by the prospect of changing out my clothes for a more feminine wardrobe, but now that's ruined :smalltongue:

[Lix Lorn]

I will miss pockets...

[CynicalAvocado]

I will miss pockets...

sew 'em on the inside of your skirt, or buy a bag of holding

[turkishproverb]

Or just...wear women's pants. They're different from men's pants.

[Heliomance]

Women's trousers are indeed different from men's trousers. One of the main differences is that the pockets are generally far too small and tight to be of much practical use.

[Ytaker]

Pockets do cause more problems for women. Women's clothing tends to be tighter, and female bodies tend to be curvier, so big items in the pocket disrupt your form more than they do ours.

For that reason very few designers make pretty female clothes with pockets.

It's doubly funny for me because girls have to carry more stuff. Phone, wallet, driving license, keys. Everyone needs those. Women often have makeup, hair ties, tampons, and pain killers.

[Lioness]

It's already been said, but handbags.

A good one has a long enough strap that it can go over your shoulder, but not too long that it swings too freely. They hold purses/wallets, keys, tampons, painkillers, makeup, tissues...everything.

I have more stuff in my handbag than I would fit in pockets.

[CynicalAvocado]

of course the only thing i carry in my pockets are my phone, wallet, the occasional pack of camels, my lighter and 2 or 3 knives

[bluewind95]

I accidentally got distracted by the gay ninja thing and before I knew it, I'd made this. Spoilered for big.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae25/npc_revolution/LGBTA-1.png?t=1293919804

This.... this is amazing. Truly, truly amazing! I love it!

[KenderWizard]

Well here I was all excited to by the prospect of changing out my clothes for a more feminine wardrobe, but now that's ruined :smalltongue:

Oopsie! :smallredface: No, don't worry! Generally, women's clothes are more exciting than men's clothes. There are a lot more options, what with the variety of skirts and dresses, and the whole pastel range of colours that men's clothes tend to avoid. I do have plenty of outfits I love that aren't even remotely practical, you just have to put some thought into what you need to bring with you, how much you can get someone else to mind for you, and how much will reasonably fit into your bra (usually, money or phone is about as far as that will take you, but my friend knew a girl who had pretty much the contents of a decent small handbag - money, wallet, phone, lip balm, keys...)

... This conversation has inspired me to start sewing pockets into things again!

[Volos]

You use an extremely similar avatar. Expect endless confusion.

Oh well, it's fine by me. Nameless (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=29897) has a much more interesting avatar than I, but I can handle being mistaken for him on occasion.


Pretty sure you still count, but we're glad to have you either way!

Even though you aren't Nameless. :smallwink:

I'm fairly sure I count as well, I just wanted to see what you all think.


I don't see how that would make you "not count". You just happen to pass as straight most of the time. Clearly you need to wear a rainbow cape and lots of jewellery to compensate.

On the subject of passing for straight, there needs to be terminology to discuss the effect "passing" has on privilege and the way you're seen by society. Preferably not to the tune of ninja-gay. :smalltongue:

Sometimes I pass for straight, othertimes I can't convince anyone that I am straight. It all depends on what influences me on any given day and who I am hanging out with. I can 'pass' for whatever I like to, which is fairly appropiate being that I am Bi.

[WarKitty]

Ok now I'm reminded of views on bisexuality and genderqueerness as related to assigned gender. It's something I've thought about a lot with crossdressing - like people don't think there's anything weird about me dressing in men's clothes, but unless I manage to pass really well they assume it's a fashion or comfort thing and not a gender thing. Whereas it's assumed to be a gender/sexuality thing for men, but it's also seen as weird or freakish.

Sort of similar with bisexuality. For men, it's taboo to express interest in another man. For women, well, it's encouraged in that sort of "hey look girl-on-girl!" way. :smallsigh:

[Quincunx]

Well, my two best friends answered thus.

First friend:
Yeah, makes sense. I wondered.
Second friend:
Me: Hey, I found something out that solves two problems!
ThemHim: You're actually a girl, but it's fine cause the girl you have a crush on is bi?
Me: ...

. . .I give up. HOW do you and yours determine what a female is? :smallsigh:

[Volos]

Ok now I'm reminded of views on bisexuality and genderqueerness as related to assigned gender. It's something I've thought about a lot with crossdressing - like people don't think there's anything weird about me dressing in men's clothes, but unless I manage to pass really well they assume it's a fashion or comfort thing and not a gender thing. Whereas it's assumed to be a gender/sexuality thing for men, but it's also seen as weird or freakish.

Sort of similar with bisexuality. For men, it's taboo to express interest in another man. For women, well, it's encouraged in that sort of "hey look girl-on-girl!" way. :smallsigh:

I've had in depth discussions on this with my friends and my local Gay-Straight Alliance / LGBTA club. What we eventually concluded/agreed on was that there is a double standard in regards to crossdressing / gender roles / sexuality that slants in favor of women and against men. Women are encouraged to wear 'male' clothing, have a generally acceptable 'male' role of tomboy, and are encouraged to explore their sexuality. Whereas men are seen as abnormal if they wear 'female' clothing, are automatically concidered gay or bi if expressing a 'female' gender role, and are discouraged from exploring their sexuality.

[WarKitty]

I've had in depth discussions on this with my friends and my local Gay-Straight Alliance / LGBTA club. What we eventually concluded/agreed on was that there is a double standard in regards to crossdressing / gender roles / sexuality that slants in favor of women and against men. Women are encouraged to wear 'male' clothing, have a generally acceptable 'male' role of tomboy, and are encouraged to explore their sexuality. Whereas men are seen as abnormal if they wear 'female' clothing, are automatically concidered gay or bi if expressing a 'female' gender role, and are discouraged from exploring their sexuality.

Then again, men don't have to put up with the LUG/BUG stereotypes.

Honestly, I almost envy my male crossdresser friends a bit. Because people see a skirt and think "must be a girl." Or at the very least, they recognize that the person is trying to put on a female gender role, even if the reactions aren't always positive. Whereas even if I put on a suit and tie, I still get coded "female." I guess I'd like a way to be able to obviously step out of cisgenderism instead of having it assumed.

[blackfox]

I guess I'd like a way to be able to obviously step out of cisgenderism instead of having it assumed.Be taller? :smalltongue:

Is the #1 problem I have with trying to pass.

For what it's worth, the thing I've usually seen with female-bodied people trying to dress/present more obviously queer is very short hair and bound breasts. Dunno if this helps at all, but 2c etc.

[Volos]

Then again, men don't have to put up with the LUG/BUG stereotypes.

Honestly, I almost envy my male crossdresser friends a bit. Because people see a skirt and think "must be a girl." Or at the very least, they recognize that the person is trying to put on a female gender role, even if the reactions aren't always positive. Whereas even if I put on a suit and tie, I still get coded "female." I guess I'd like a way to be able to obviously step out of cisgenderism instead of having it assumed.

I could see how that would be something for you to be jealous of, but then again I am jealous of females being able to dress in 'male' clothing without having to have their gender role changed. The best I can do is to wear a kilt, and then I am assumed to be of scottish decent when all I am trying to do is to wear something comfortable for me without people labeling me as a crossdresser. I just look forward to a day when people can just be who they are and everyone can accept that. But with so many different cultures and relgions and other groups getting in the way of this acceptance it is going to be a long and difficult road.

[Ytaker]

I've had in depth discussions on this with my friends and my local Gay-Straight Alliance / LGBTA club. What we eventually concluded/agreed on was that there is a double standard in regards to crossdressing / gender roles / sexuality that slants in favor of women and against men. Women are encouraged to wear 'male' clothing, have a generally acceptable 'male' role of tomboy, and are encouraged to explore their sexuality. Whereas men are seen as abnormal if they wear 'female' clothing, are automatically concidered gay or bi if expressing a 'female' gender role, and are discouraged from exploring their sexuality.

Men tend to be more homophobic than women. Plus, female clothes are made to accent female forms much more than male clothes are made to accent male clothes.

I've noticed some lesbians like to actively wear more stereotypical male clothes. Jeans just aren't male enough any more. Ties, business suits

[Thufir]

Sort of similar with bisexuality. For men, it's taboo to express interest in another man. For women, well, it's encouraged in that sort of "hey look girl-on-girl!" way. :smallsigh:

Or it's assumed to be not serious, in either case. Like say, for me, it's easy to express attraction to (I suspect that was terrible grammar) a guy, because it just comes of as joking, even among people who know I'm bi. Whereas if I said the same things to a woman it would most likely be assumed I was genuinely hitting on her.

[WarKitty]

Be taller? :smalltongue:

Is the #1 problem I have with trying to pass.

For what it's worth, the thing I've usually seen with female-bodied people trying to dress/present more obviously queer is very short hair and bound breasts. Dunno if this helps at all, but 2c etc.

Yeah same. My hair is as short as I dare go right now, and I do bind. But I'm short and have a definite baby face.


I could see how that would be something for you to be jealous of, but then again I am jealous of females being able to dress in 'male' clothing without having to have their gender role changed. The best I can do is to wear a kilt, and then I am assumed to be of scottish decent when all I am trying to do is to wear something comfortable for me without people labeling me as a crossdresser. I just look forward to a day when people can just be who they are and everyone can accept that. But with so many different cultures and relgions and other groups getting in the way of this acceptance it is going to be a long and difficult road.

Yeah I see what you mean. I *want* to be seen as a crossdresser, so it's frustrating that I can't.

Although I could do without the het dudes commenting on how hot girls in guy's clothes are...it's sort of in the same category as the guy that says "oh you're a lesbian? That's cool, girl-on-girl is hot!"

Edit @ Thufir: Yeah that's the same thing I was talking about with the BUG phenomenon. It's considered a thing straight girls do to get male attention. So I can spend the night flirting with another girl and not only still be considered straight, but be considered to be actively seeking male attention.

[Heliomance]

To be fair, girls in guy's clothes are hot. But I think I have a bit of a thing for androgyny in general.

I would love to be able to wear women's clothes out and about without people thinking it's weird.

[Lix Lorn]

. . .I give up. HOW do you and yours determine what a female is? :smallsigh:
I don't understand the question. :smallconfused:

[WarKitty]

To be fair, girls in guy's clothes are hot. But I think I have a bit of a thing for androgyny in general.

I would love to be able to wear women's clothes out and about without people thinking it's weird.

It's less the actual thinking it's hot and more the way certain people have of reducing one's identity to their sexual fetish. It's the same issue as the dude that catcalls random women on the street - the assumption that his sexual interest is relevant and wanted when it frankly isn't.

[Volos]

Another arena in which I have noticed a terrible gender double standard is gaming. The slant seems to go both ways though, depending on what exact area you are talking about. In RPGs it has been the standard that all pen and paper gamers are guys who live in their mother's basement and have never had a single date in their life. This is starting to fade within the RPG community but from the outside it is still viewed this way. I have friends who never knew that I and my fiancée do RPGs like D&D, WoD, Pathfinder and a few others. They were surprised to hear that I game, being that I am a handsome male in a long term relationship and about to get married. They were downright shocked to hear that not only does my fiancée game but she is an amazing roleplayer and has been gaming for longer than I.

There is also the assumed standard that all 'serious' video gamers are either college frat boys playing shooters and sports games all the time or angry little kids playing much of the same. Most of my video gamer friends are girls and most of them have played more 'serious' game titles than I have. This is saying something as I have played thousands of titles and beaten quite a few of the more infamously difficult ones.

I just don't understand why most people feel the need to either make or perpetuate stereotypes in regards to gender or sexuality. I am glad to see some people change their ways in regards to either distrusting or hating the LGBTA community to actually accepting or at least being content to adopt a standard of 'live and let live'.

[Thufir]

Edit @ Thufir: Yeah that's the same thing I was talking about with the BUG phenomenon. It's considered a thing straight girls do to get male attention. So I can spend the night flirting with another girl and not only still be considered straight, but be considered to be actively seeking male attention.

But that's still not what I mean. What I was talking about was not to do with people's reactions to the flirtation, rather their perceptions of it. So it would be a case of, you could flirt with a girl, but they'd assume you were just joking around, and might even flirt back, in the spirit of the joking around. Whereas if you did the same with a guy, actual interest would automatically be assumed and it'd be all serious and OMG DRAMA and if you weren't actually serious they'd be all "You led me on!" And stuff.
You see, the emphasis is not so much on "Yeah! Hot girl-on-girl action!" and more "Ha ha, yeah, you're totally gay for each other!" Certainly if I flirt with another guy, I'm not assumed to be doing it to garner female attention.

Of course it may simply be a matter of context. I imagine that if the people in this hypothetical situation were predominantly homosexual, the assumptions might well run the other way. But I can't be sure since I have no experience of such groupings.

[Lix Lorn]

Certainly if I flirt with another guy, I'm not assumed to be doing it to garner female attention.
Which is interesting, as the Yaoi fangirl stereotype is actually MORE factual among my friend than Yuri fanboys. Or at least as factual.

[Heliomance]

Yeah, but most RL guys aren't cute slightly effeminate bishounen. Yaoi is generally about a very particular type of very pretty guys. Men are far less picky about their lesbians.

[Quincunx]

I don't understand the question. :smallconfused:

Which gets us nowhere as I don't understand your answer to that question.

The correct explanation is, more likely, that Friend Two has also picked up on your ongoing parody of ladder-theory feminine behavior and treated it as humor, because, well, parody is most often used for humor (and the only fit response to the ladder theory's distorted view of men and women is to laugh your tits off :smallyuk:).

[WarKitty]

But that's still not what I mean. What I was talking about was not to do with people's reactions to the flirtation, rather their perceptions of it. So it would be a case of, you could flirt with a girl, but they'd assume you were just joking around, and might even flirt back, in the spirit of the joking around. Whereas if you did the same with a guy, actual interest would automatically be assumed and it'd be all serious and OMG DRAMA and if you weren't actually serious they'd be all "You led me on!" And stuff.
You see, the emphasis is not so much on "Yeah! Hot girl-on-girl action!" and more "Ha ha, yeah, you're totally gay for each other!" Certainly if I flirt with another guy, I'm not assumed to be doing it to garner female attention.

Of course it may simply be a matter of context. I imagine that if the people in this hypothetical situation were predominantly homosexual, the assumptions might well run the other way. But I can't be sure since I have no experience of such groupings.

That was what I meant by the "and still be assumed to be straight part." I can flirt with a girl and be assumed to be doing it as a joke instead of actual interest. Whereas I have the other problem with guys - I've had several cases where smiling and indicating interest in conversing with a male is presumed to be sexual interest.

[Lix Lorn]

Which gets us nowhere as I don't understand your answer to that question.

The correct explanation is, more likely, that Friend Two has also picked up on your ongoing parody of ladder-theory feminine behavior and treated it as humor, because, well, parody is most often used for humor (and the only fit response to the ladder theory's distorted view of men and women is to laugh your tits off :smallyuk:).
Now I'm even more confused. DXD

[Volos]

{Scrubbed}

[WarKitty]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I suspect this goes along with the theory that bisexual girls are promiscuous. Since all girls primarily want straight guys, a girl who is interested in other girls must not be satisfied with the amount of sex she gets from the boys. Alternately, lesbians are the women who couldn't get a guy to sleep with them.

Then again, you're also getting into the double standard regarding amount of sexual interest and number of partners there.

[Ytaker]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

This strongly conflicts with my experience. The gay males and lesbian females I've talked have continually talked to me about how they fancy their straight friends of the same gender. I remember one lesbian saying she had a crush on every girl she met. I've seen numerous social conflicts among girls because one starts being bisexual or lesbiany and has a crush on her best friend that isn't reciprocated.

I have personally had awkward situatios where gay male friends have got a crush on me and awkwardly tried to flirt with me. It's not so much a matter of logical absolutes but is a matter of is the guy flirting or not. Females are more open to actual flirting from female friends in general, which is probably why they have less social conflicts.

[CynicalAvocado]

what annoys me the most is is when people assume that a homoromantic relationship is the same as a homosexual relationship

[Volos]

This strongly conflicts with my experience. The gay males and lesbian females I've talked have continually talked to me about how they fancy their straight friends of the same gender. I remember one lesbian saying she had a crush on every girl she met. I've seen numerous social conflicts among girls because one starts being bisexual or lesbiany and has a crush on her best friend that isn't reciprocated.

I have personally had awkward situatios where gay male friends have got a crush on me and awkwardly tried to flirt with me. It's not so much a matter of logical absolutes but is a matter of is the guy flirting or not. Females are more open to actual flirting from female friends in general, which is probably why they have less social conflicts.

Then I will amend my statement. Straight males tend to assume that gay males are interested them when there is no sign of any sexual or emotional attraction, or even in the face of obvious lack of attraction or even signs that the gay male is repulsed or 'turned off' by the straight male. Repeat that statement but plug in lesbian for gay male and you have my views on how I have seen and heard of straight males acting around gays and lesbians.

[Heliomance]

That would be because the word "homoromantic" is not in common parlance.

[CynicalAvocado]

That would be because the word "homoromantic" is not in common parlance.

the word "bromance" is.

[Volos]

what annoys me the most is is when people assume that a homoromantic relationship is the same as a homosexual relationship

Yeah, I hate it when I talk to my straight friends about my ex boyfriend. They keep asking which one of us was the 'guy'. So I tell them that we both were. They get confused and I get pissed off. They can't seem to accept that there isn't a 'female' and 'male' in a homoromantic or just homosexual relationship. I was attracted to my ex because he was a guy, not because he was a guy who acted like a girl. No offense to those out there who do like their boys more girly or their girls more boyish.

[WarKitty]

Yeah, I hate it when I talk to my straight friends about my ex boyfriend. They keep asking which one of us was the 'guy'. So I tell them that we both were. They get confused and I get pissed off. They can't seem to accept that there isn't a 'female' and 'male' in a homoromantic or just homosexual relationship. I was attracted to my ex because he was a guy, not because he was a guy who acted like a girl. No offense to those out there who do like their boys more girly or their girls more boyish.

Usually the same people don't handle heterosexual relationships where the guy and girl don't act like people expect very well either. As someone who's seen a guy considered "whipped" and his wife "lazy" because he does the cooking for the family...yeah.

[Volos]

Usually the same people don't handle heterosexual relationships where the guy and girl don't act like people expect very well either. As someone who's seen a guy considered "whipped" and his wife "lazy" because he does the cooking for the family...yeah.

Me and my fiancee tend to keep things as ballanced as we can. Our friends have mentioned that it is odd that at times I seem to be very dominating or overtly 'male'. But at other times I take a more subdued role and my fiancee seems more 'male'. We both cook, we both clean, and we both work. I have yet to have anyone call me 'whipped', but my mother did say that my fiancee is 'lazy' cause she lets me take a fair share of the household chores. I calmly explained that we both take equal shares in making the money for the household as well as taking care of eachother and the house. It didn't satisify my mother, but I think we do a good job of keeping things ballanced.

[golentan]

Take that cowardice! I recant the terrible things I said about hope behind it's back.

The girlfriend wasn't a girlfriend. Golly's got a date. :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

Congratulations!
(cries alone in emo corner jealously)

I kid, I kid.
(kisses Mantra)

[turkishproverb]

Take that cowardice! I recant the terrible things I said about hope behind it's back.

The girlfriend wasn't a girlfriend. Golly's got a date. :smallbiggrin:

*Huggles* Congrats!

[Beelzebub1111]

Take that cowardice! I recant the terrible things I said about hope behind it's back.

The girlfriend wasn't a girlfriend. Golly's got a date. :smallbiggrin:

Good luck! I hope it goes well.

[CynicalAvocado]

Take that cowardice! I recant the terrible things I said about hope behind it's back.

The girlfriend wasn't a girlfriend. Golly's got a date. :smallbiggrin:

many happies, may friend

[Da Beast]

-Sniped-
In short, straight people are illogical.

fixed that for you.

[CynicalAvocado]

In short, straight people are illogical.

nein, just the insecure ones

[Coidzor]

Well, my fine feathered and confectioned friends, you have some hot competition in the form of the fireworks from New Year's Eve which tried to climb up my pantleg after chasing my friend across the lawn. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10069926&postcount=1471)

[turkishproverb]

Sounds unfortunate. Still, I can handle a little competition from gunpowder. :smallamused:

[Heliomance]

Well, my fine feathered and confectioned friends, you have some hot competition in the form of the fireworks from New Year's Eve which tried to climb up my pantleg after chasing my friend across the lawn. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10069926&postcount=1471)

Sounds like you had
:smallcool:
chemistry.
(http://people.rit.edu/~bss6378/instantCSI/)

[Ranger Mattos]

In short, straight people are illogical.

fixed that for you.

True, very true. Humans are weird.

[Coidzor]

Ok now I'm reminded of views on bisexuality and genderqueerness as related to assigned gender. It's something I've thought about a lot with crossdressing - like people don't think there's anything weird about me dressing in men's clothes, but unless I manage to pass really well they assume it's a fashion or comfort thing and not a gender thing. Whereas it's assumed to be a gender/sexuality thing for men, but it's also seen as weird or freakish.

Sort of similar with bisexuality. For men, it's taboo to express interest in another man. For women, well, it's encouraged in that sort of "hey look girl-on-girl!" way. :smallsigh:

Goes all the way back to the Greeks, really. To do or be womanly is a step down for a man and thus shameful.

Whereas to be manly is a step up for a woman.

I think we had a similar conclusion in regards to a related matter two or three threads back.


Yeah same. My hair is as short as I dare go right now, and I do bind. But I'm short and have a definite baby face. Eh, not really baby face from what I've seen. You don't look younger than you should, after all. I mean, looking 18 when you're 21 isn't a bad thing :P Now, looking 16 or younger when you're in your early 20s, that's something people mock ya for. And then when you look 14 and are 28, that wraps around into something that basically becomes one's shctick for comedy gold.


I just don't understand why most people feel the need to either make or perpetuate stereotypes in regards to gender or sexuality. I am glad to see some people change their ways in regards to either distrusting or hating the LGBTA community to actually accepting or at least being content to adopt a standard of 'live and let live'.

My guess... wanting something to remain stable and constant, even if it's hated, in the shifting sands of life's ephemerality.


They don't seem to get that women can be lesbians and just want to be with their partner.

Well that's just unfair. How exactly as we supposed to know if a woman is a lesbian without her telling us? :smallannoyed: And what, it's ok to bash straight guys in this thread now? :smallyuk:

[turkishproverb]

Ugh. I hate trying to figure a person's orientation out. I have a broken gaydar. :smallfrown:

[WarKitty]

Well that's just unfair. How exactly as we supposed to know if a woman is a lesbian without her telling us? :smallannoyed: And what, it's ok to bash straight guys in this thread now? :smallyuk:

I thought that quote was talking about the guys who know that a woman is a lesbian and still persist in assuming they really want to sleep with men...

[Coidzor]

I thought that quote was talking about the guys who know that a woman is a lesbian and still persist in assuming they really want to sleep with men...

No, it was saying straight men are all like that. And thus, all of them. Amongst other things. Hence the calling on it.

[turkishproverb]

Yea it did read distinctly anti-strait male. Mind you, it is possible that it was unintentional.

[Thufir]

Fair enough. People who are too logical are bothersome.

:frown:

@Coid: I did wonder about that, and in retrospect am not entirely sure why I didn't call Volos on it myself. I think I just assumed he must've known some particularly bad straight people.

[WarKitty]

Huh. I read it as an "in general" thing more than an "all of them" thing. Which I think is fair - it's a reflection of our societal scripts about men and women.

[Beelzebub1111]

Ugh. I hate trying to figure a person's orientation out. I have a broken gaydar. :smallfrown:

You too? I think it's an epidemic.

[Heliomance]

Yea it did read distinctly anti-strait male. Mind you, it is possible that it was unintentional.

Speaking as a predominantly straight male, we suck.

[DeadManSleeping]

Speaking as a predominantly straight male, we suck.

I think that sort of behavior marks you at least a little bicurious, mate. :smalltongue:

[unosarta]

You too? I think it's an epidemic.

It seems like if you are of a non-heteronormative sexuality then, unlike it being broken, you simply have a higher chance of using it, and since gaydar is, in and of itself not a very affective tool (I mean, you look at the behaviors of another person, sometimes someone you have never met, and then judge their sexuality off of associations you have with their behavior tendencies, when sexuality is such a personal thing), you judge yours to be "off". I may have a very good prediction rate, but rather than that being my ability to judge another person based on their behaviors, it is because I wait until I get to know someone before I try to guess at their sexuality.

I never really liked the whole "gaydar" thing anyway. It reminds me too much of "radar" which is entirely for the purpose of finding danger, and therefore seems like an odd thing to be basing a word about sexuality on. :smallconfused:

[CynicalAvocado]

It seems like if you are of a non-heteronormative sexuality then, unlike it being broken, you simply have a higher chance of using it, and since gaydar is, in and of itself not a very effective tool (I mean, you look at the behaviors of another person, sometimes someone you have never met, and then judge their sexuality off of associations you have with their behavior tendencies, when sexuality is such a personal thing), you judge yours to be "off". I may have a very good prediction rate, but rather than that being my ability to judge another person based on their behaviors, it is because I wait until I get to know someone before I try to guess at their sexuality.

I never really liked the whole "gaydar" thing anyway. It reminds me too much of "radar" which is entirely for the purpose of finding danger, and therefore seems like an odd thing to be basing a word about sexuality on. :smallconfused:

when i think of "gaydar" the first thing that come to mind is homophobia..

but that's just me

[KenderWizard]

Goes all the way back to the Greeks, really. To do or be womanly is a step down for a man and thus shameful.

Whereas to be manly is a step up for a woman.

I think we had a similar conclusion in regards to a related matter two or three threads back.


We did, I remember that. I think it was part of the gendered toys discussion at one point. Boys are taking a step "down" to play with a cooker or an iron but girls are taking a step "up" to play with a truck or a building kit.

It is kind of a Thing that straight men are expected or likely to feel uncomfortable around a gay man, but much less so around a gay woman, but it's also the case that plenty aren't, and that plenty of straight women are more uncomfortable around a gay woman than a gay man. I'm sure in at least some cases it's because they don't know how to deal well with the situation if it does happen that the gay person finds them very attractive. In fairness, it can be quite easy to tell if someone's attracted to you, and if you're not attracted to them, for whatever reason, it is very awkward. But then, probably some people are just being panicky because they don't understand, either through ignorance or prejudice, that a gay person of the same gender is as likely or as unlikely to be attracted to you as a straight person of the opposite gender.

[Volos]

Well that's just unfair. How exactly as we supposed to know if a woman is a lesbian without her telling us? :smallannoyed: And what, it's ok to bash straight guys in this thread now? :smallyuk:

I wasn't bashing on straight guys. I was noting how straight males view gay and lesbians.


I thought that quote was talking about the guys who know that a woman is a lesbian and still persist in assuming they really want to sleep with men...

This is what I meant. Mostly. There are guys will try to get with a woman regardless of any clues that there isn't any interest to be pursued by that man, regardless of her orientation. Not every guy does this, but the ones who do are bad enough that it is still a problem.


No, it was saying straight men are all like that. And thus, all of them. Amongst other things. Hence the calling on it.

I have amended my statement.

[unosarta]

when i think of "gaydar" the first thing that come to mind is homophobia..

but that's just me

Saying, or "using" Gaydar does not necessarily confer homophobia. "Gaydar" is just representing someone analyzing the actions and behaviors of another person for the purpose of determining whether they are "straight" or not. It doesn't necessarily work all of the time, and the constraints are based off of stereotypes about sexuality in general, but that doesn't necessarily make it homophobic. For instance, a lot of gay men use "gaydar" in order to tell if others are gay. In that case, however, it is more of a self defense technique, since simply going up to people and asking if they are gay is likely to out you and create feelings of hostility and fear from those who are gay. Thus, using "gaydar" in order to try to ascertain if another person is gay or bi isn't necessarily homophobic.

[DeadManSleeping]

Huh. Funny. When I think of gaydar, all I can think of is practical applications (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=119). But I guess everyone has their own view of these things.

[WarKitty]

We did, I remember that. I think it was part of the gendered toys discussion at one point. Boys are taking a step "down" to play with a cooker or an iron but girls are taking a step "up" to play with a truck or a building kit.

It is kind of a Thing that straight men are expected or likely to feel uncomfortable around a gay man, but much less so around a gay woman, but it's also the case that plenty aren't, and that plenty of straight women are more uncomfortable around a gay woman than a gay man. I'm sure in at least some cases it's because they don't know how to deal well with the situation if it does happen that the gay person finds them very attractive. In fairness, it can be quite easy to tell if someone's attracted to you, and if you're not attracted to them, for whatever reason, it is very awkward. But then, probably some people are just being panicky because they don't understand, either through ignorance or prejudice, that a gay person of the same gender is as likely or as unlikely to be attracted to you as a straight person of the opposite gender.

I suspect a lot of it also has to do with having specific gender roles for how attraction is supposed to play out. The whole men are supposed to do the pursuing and women are supposed to let it happen after a suitable amount of protest thing. It's a framework where men aren't supposed to be pursued and women aren't supposed to do the pursuing. It creeps a lot of guys out when a woman is too forward or steps into the pursuer role.

[Volos]

I think it's fair to say that nothing is standard or normal in sexuality, behavior, gender roles, romance, or anything else really. While there are things that are more common, nothing is a complete blanket that covers everyone. People are who they are.

[Ytaker]

I think it's fair to say that nothing is standard or normal in sexuality, behavior, gender roles, romance, or anything else really. While there are things that are more common, nothing is a complete blanket that covers everyone. People are who they are.

Things that are more common are normal. That's the definition of normal. They are the standard and accepted ways of behaving among a group which normally represent the statistical mean of the behaviours in the group.

Indeed, numerous people in this thread have had problems precisely because their behaviour is different from the normal.

[CynicalAvocado]

Saying, or "using" Gaydar does not necessarily confer homophobia. "Gaydar" is just representing someone analyzing the actions and behaviors of another person for the purpose of determining whether they are "straight" or not. It doesn't necessarily work all of the time, and the constraints are based off of stereotypes about sexuality in general, but that doesn't necessarily make it homophobic. For instance, a lot of gay men use "gaydar" in order to tell if others are gay. In that case, however, it is more of a self defense technique, since simply going up to people and asking if they are gay is likely to out you and create feelings of hostility and fear from those who are gay. Thus, using "gaydar" in order to try to ascertain if another person is gay or bi isn't necessarily homophobic.

i was referring to applications that mirror what you said earlier


It reminds me too much of "radar" which is entirely for the purpose of finding danger, and therefore seems like an odd thing to be basing a word about sexuality on

[Ytaker]

Radar is also used for weather stuff and tracking the migration of birds, and is a major tool in deducing the nature of the stars.

[Murdim]

No, it was saying straight men are all like that. And thus, all of them. Amongst other things. Hence the calling on it.
Well, that's not better (or worse) than saying that all gay men want to have sex with their straight friends and would do so if given the opportunity.

When they feel like objectivizing an entire group of independant, thinking, feeling beings (and even when you don't feel like it, the instinctive part of your mind loves to do this for you, whether you like it or not), people have that nasty tendancy to generalise about this group based on its most "obvious" members. This is also known as the first step towards demonization. And of course, when it comes to sexual orientation, obvious usually means lecherous.

Your sexual orientation matter less socially if it doesn't see much practical application. I mean, the stereotypical "gay friend" would lose most if its interest if he didn't have lots of gay sex. That way you can say that every gay man is horny, since those who aren't don't really count.

I think Volos is basically doing the same thing, but applied to straight men. Only those who never miss one chance to prove their heterosexuality to the entire world really count as straight. Many of those men do seem to assume that deep inside, every woman and gay male is as sexually eager about him as he is about the women he's attracted to. Therefore, every straight male is like that.

But, well, meh. Duh... 'kay ? This kind of slip can happen to everyone. It doesn't mean that Volos is actually prejudiced against straight men.



when i think of "gaydar" the first thing that come to mind is homophobia..

but that's just me
The notion of gaydar does have some unfortunate implications. It's communitarist as it implies that "the gay" are an uniform group capable of recognizing each other instantly ; it assumes that sexuality is essentialistic and binary rather than fluid, multi-dimensional and undecipherably complex ; and of course, it draws an image of gay men always with their "gaydar" on, looking for potential sexual partners.

Of course, if you dig deep enough, you can find offensive undertones in just about everything. So, yeah. That's just you. :smalltongue:

Also, when you think of "gaydar", the first thing that should come to mind is technically... "gaydar". Then, maybe, homophobia. I'll go, now. Please don't hit me.

[Volos]

But, well, meh. Duh... 'kay ? This kind of slip can happen to everyone. It doesn't mean that Volos is actually prejudiced against straight men.

It would be akward if I was prejudiced against straight men, as I am about 60-70% straight and alot of my straight friends are great guys and definitely not horny perverts out to make as many notches in their bedposts as possible.

[Ytaker]

You're assuming that this is only a problem from the straight side. "Guys will try to get with a woman regardless of any clues that there isn't any interest to be pursued by that man, regardless of her orientation."

The technical term for this is stalker. Gay people do this too. Many gay people are trying to get as many notches in their bed as possible.

http://gaygettingstraightmen.com/blog/gay-dating-online-how-to-tell-potential-lovers-from-obsessed-stalkers.html

You seem to be implying that straight people are worse. Do you have some reason to believe this?

[WarKitty]

Personally the problem is not so much that some straight men do this as much as that it is often socially condoned for a straight man to behave that way towards a girl.

[Murdim]

Personally the problem is not so much that some straight men do this as much as that it is often socially condoned for a straight man to behave that way towards a girl.
Wait... are you seriously saying that in the hellhole you're living in, this kind of behavior is actually considered normal and even encouraged ?

:smallfrown: :smallfurious:

[Volos]

I agree with WarKitty, it is the social view of such behavior that is disturbing. Males (not just straight males) tend to be more sexually focused and this causes all sorts of uncomfortable or akward situations or even crimes in the extreme cases. Women, on the other hand, seem to be more emotionally focused and this casues all sorts of uncomfortable or akward situations or even crimes in the extreme cases. Simply put, people are unballanced. All of us. Society's views and pressures to act or think certian ways only makes our unballanced selves worse to the point where some people lash out or take drastic action against the culture or society that put them in this situation. Men should be less concerned with sex and more emotionally open and women should be more emotionally ballanced. I know I'm not making any friends in saying this, but we are all messed up. What makes us human is being so unballanced and being willing to accept the flaws in others and ourselves. So I would like to offically accept myself and everyone else here just as they are.

[KenderWizard]

*snip*

Your sexual orientation matter less socially if it doesn't see much practical application. I mean, the stereotypical "gay friend" would lose most if its interest if he didn't have lots of gay sex. That way you can say that every gay man is horny, since those who aren't don't really count.

*snip*

I thought the stereotypical "gay friend" was the male gay person who is friends with a female, and the female can talk to him about, like, totally, like fashion and stuff, and he's great because he's doubly non-threatening: he's not attracted to her AND he's not going to be "prettier" than her either and steal her limelight (I mean, he could be, but probably isn't, more feminine and traditionally-womanly-beautiful, so he's probably not a direct competitor the way another woman would be). And he tells her she's looking "FABulous, girlfriend". Etc.

[WarKitty]

Wait... are you seriously saying that in the hellhole you're living in, this kind of behavior is actually considered normal and even encouraged ?

:smallfrown: :smallfurious:

I've seen it a lot of places. Usually you hear stuff like "oh he's just trying to get your attention," or "why don't you give him a chance, you're not seeing anyone?" Or in the worst case, one of "why, what's wrong with him?" or "you're just too stuck up" (yes, those two are usually different ways of saying the same thing).


I agree with WarKitty, it is the social view of such behavior that is disturbing. Males (not just straight males) tend to be more sexually focused and this causes all sorts of uncomfortable or akward situations or even crimes in the extreme cases. Women, on the other hand, seem to be more emotionally focused and this casues all sorts of uncomfortable or akward situations or even crimes in the extreme cases. Simply put, people are unballanced. All of us. Society's views and pressures to act or think certian ways only makes our unballanced selves worse to the point where some people lash out or take drastic action against the culture or society that put them in this situation. Men should be less concerned with sex and more emotionally open and women should be more emotionally ballanced. I know I'm not making any friends in saying this, but we are all messed up. What makes us human is being so unballanced and being willing to accept the flaws in others and ourselves. So I would like to offically accept myself and everyone else here just as they are.

It's as much that society says "men are this way" and "women are that way" whether it's true or not. Like, I hear about a lot of guys who are frustrated because they frankly don't particularly want to be having sex or talking about it, but it's not acceptable for a guy to not want sex. Or a girl who says no when she wants to say yes, because she doesn't want to be seen as easy or slutty - which then encourages guys to keep pushing when a girl says no.

[Murdim]

I thought the stereotypical "gay friend" was the male gay person who is friends with a female, and the female can talk to him about, like, totally, like fashion and stuff, and he's great because he's doubly non-threatening: he's not attracted to her AND he's not going to be "prettier" than her either and steal her limelight (I mean, he could be, but probably isn't, more feminine and traditionally-womanly-beautiful, so he's probably not a direct competitor the way another woman would be). And he tells her she's looking "FABulous, girlfriend". Etc.
This is the "gay friend" from a female perspective. In my experience, males are much less calculating and much more sordid when it comes to their homosexual acquaintances.


I've seen it a lot of places. Usually you hear stuff like "oh he's just trying to get your attention," or "why don't you give him a chance, you're not seeing anyone?" Or in the worst case, one of "why, what's wrong with him?" or "you're just too stuck up" (yes, those two are usually different ways of saying the same thing).
Dunno. I must live in an exceptionnally enlightened place. That, or I'm blind to the horrors that happen around me.

[Heliomance]

It's as much that society says "men are this way" and "women are that way" whether it's true or not. Like, I hear about a lot of guys who are frustrated because they frankly don't particularly want to be having sex or talking about it, but it's not acceptable for a guy to not want sex. Or a girl who says no when she wants to say yes, because she doesn't want to be seen as easy or slutty - which then encourages guys to keep pushing when a girl says no.

There is a certain amount of truth to it, though. Stereotypes exist for a reason. I can see that bedpost-notching behaviour in myself. I hate it. I really hate the fact that when things start to get physical - or even look like there's a chance they'll get physical - the male brain has a tendency to switch off, and leave the thinking entirely to the hormones. I try to treat women well, I'm like to think of myself as an old fashioned romantic. But in the heat of the moment, that changes. I loathe how pushy I get. I'll be pressuring for more, to go further. When I calm down afterwords, I feel really guilty - but next time, it happens exactly the same way.

I believe intimacy should be just that - intimate. I think sexual activity should be special, and shared only with someone you love. I'm planning on not having actual sex until marriage.

My body doesn't agree. My body wants to give in to the urges. I hate how easy it is to give in to the animal.

[CynicalAvocado]

My body doesn't agree. My body wants to give in to the urges. I hate how easy it is to give in to the animal.

the mind is willing, but the body is weak eh?

i know the feeling

[Murdim]

There is a certain amount of truth to it, though. Stereotypes exist for a reason. I can see that bedpost-notching behaviour in myself. I hate it. I really hate the fact that when things start to get physical - or even look like there's a chance they'll get physical - the male brain has a tendency to switch off, and leave the thinking entirely to the hormones. I try to treat women well, I'm like to think of myself as an old fashioned romantic. But in the heat of the moment, that changes. I loathe how pushy I get. I'll be pressuring for more, to go further. When I calm down afterwords, I feel really guilty - but next time, it happens exactly the same way.

I believe intimacy should be just that - intimate. I think sexual activity should be special, and shared only with someone you love. I'm planning on not having actual sex until marriage.

My body doesn't agree. My body wants to give in to the urges. I hate how easy it is to give in to the animal.
WarKitty wasn't denying the fact that males have a sex drive. She's saying that men shouldn't be expected to be always ready for sex just because they're male. In other words, she was defending your right to follow your convictions and stay abstinent until marriage in spite of the social incentive to "score". Among other things.

Also, it's pretty dangerous to condone a stereotype just because you can recognize yourself in it at some level. One, because the stereotype may mean much more than just the part that you happen to fit in (cf previous paragraph), and two, because it doesn't change the fact some people don't fit in the stereotype at all.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. So do discrimination, hate, and violence. That doesn't mean they are any kind of right.

[WarKitty]

WarKitty wasn't denying the fact that males have a sex drive. She's saying that men shouldn't be expected to be always ready for sex just because they're male. In other words, she was defending your right to follow your convictions and stay abstinent until marriage in spite of the social incentive to "score". Among other things.

Also, it's pretty dangerous to condone a stereotype just because you can recognize yourself in it at some level. One, because the stereotype may mean much more than just the part that you happen to fit in (cf previous paragraph), and two, because it doesn't change the fact some people don't fit in the stereotype at all.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. So do discrimination, hate, and violence. That doesn't mean they are any kind of right.

This +1. And the corollary. I was thinking of the several females of my acquaintance who also describe having such a sex drive. And the ability to satisfy one's sex drive with a willing partner without having to worry about being seen as a slut, if one so desires. I suspect the corresponding term for males would be "prude."

[Ytaker]

Also, it's pretty dangerous to condone a stereotype just because you can recognize yourself in it at some level. One, because the stereotype may mean much more than just the part that you happen to fit in (cf previous paragraph), and two, because it doesn't change the fact some people don't fit in the stereotype at all.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. So do discrimination, hate, and violence. That doesn't mean they are any kind of right.

Some people do fit into the sterotype, and draw strength from that stereotype. Heliomance is analysing their behaviour, based on the male stereotype of oversexualized. I myself do the same and actively avoid situations where I know others often fall.

I have, say, avoiding visiting an ex girlfriend because I know of the stereotype that such trips often lead to infidelity. I have substantial control over who I associate with, but have terrible control of my behaviour and a stereotype helps me better control my association.

You yourself have stereotypes.


I think Volos is basically doing the same thing, but applied to straight men. Only those who never miss one chance to prove their heterosexuality to the entire world really count as straight. Many of those men do seem to assume that deep inside, every woman and gay male is as sexually eager about him as he is about the women he's attracted to. Therefore, every straight male is like that.

Men who enjoy showing off straightness generally assume that women and gay males are sexually eager about them? That sounds like a stereotype about men who enjoy being straight. Even in the midst of trying to refute a stereotype of men.

It's a rather unjustified stereotype too. I honestly have never seen anything like it in the real world. The vast majority of promiscuous people I know understand that not everyone is attracted to them- indeed they have an acute awareness of it as flirting with more people means that you get refused more. I feel that trying to find the truth or wrongness of stereotypes is more productive than condemning them. And, finding out how common exceptions are.

[cycoris]

Well that's just unfair. How exactly as we supposed to know if a woman is a lesbian without her telling us? :smallannoyed: And what, it's ok to bash straight guys in this thread now? :smallyuk:

How the hell did you get bashing straight guys out of that? He was, as far as I can tell, expressing that he found those views to be prevalent. Saying "enough straight guys that I've seen behave this way for me to notice a trend" isn't bashing straight guys.

And besides, you are kind of proving his point by assuming that by default women are and should be straight and/or interested in you and available for you to pursue, and that you deserve explanation if otherwise. :smallannoyed:

[arguskos]

How the hell did you get bashing straight guys out of that? He was, as far as I can tell, expressing that he found those views to be prevalent. Saying "enough straight guys that I've seen behave this way for me to notice a trend" isn't bashing straight guys.
The logic of the situation goes as follows:

Volos makes a sweeping statement about straight men and their attitudes using the word "they", which automatically pushes people into camps.

Coid reads this, goes "the hell is he talking about? RAEGMODEGO!" and gives his thing.

You read Coidzor's "RAEGMODEGO!" and go "the hell is he talking about? RAEGMODEGOx2!"

Here we are.

Situation summary: one guy has bad word choice, two people enter RAEGMODE, everyone gets confused.

Solution: Accept that it's bad word choice on all parts and let it go. Volos, from my experiences with him, is a pretty chill dude, and I am certain he has no straight guy hate, considering he's said in this very thread that he's got straight friends he really likes, cause they're chill dudes too. :smallsmile:


And besides, you are kind of proving his point by assuming that by default women are and should be straight and/or interested in you and available for you to pursue, and that you deserve explanation if otherwise. :smallannoyed:
Now, that I don't see. Coidzor did ask a legit question. It can be difficult to discern someone's preferences without them telling you. The solution, of course, is to ask, but that's frowned upon as being terribly rude (though it's also honest and saves lots of trouble).

Everyone just take a deep breath and calm the hell down. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Also... I misread the thread title I think. I thought this was RW&A for a second there. Crap. Sorry for intruding, folks. I'll be on my merry.

[Coidzor]

And besides, you are kind of proving his point by assuming that by default women are and should be straight and/or interested in you and available for you to pursue, and that you deserve explanation if otherwise. :smallannoyed:

No, I was saying that it's unreasonable to get mad at someone for something they can't know without being told, and especially unfair to condemn an entire sex-orientation-gender loadout for it. I have no idea where you got the idea that I was saying that all women should be straight and interested in me. Heck, I could count the number of straight women that are interested in me on the ruined stump where my hand used to be if I had lost my hand somehow.

Lesbians don't wear signs on their foreheads, and it would be rather untoward if they did due to the historical connections one could make from that. Actively expressing revulsion at being around or interacting with men at all would be a huge energy expenditure and would distract them from their current goals. Simply put, except for a subset of cases where the visual signs would make the assumption that a woman is a lesbian correct rather than a flawed assumption about someone based entirely upon judging them for their looks and aesthetics, lesbian, bisexual, and straight women are visually identical.

To not act at all due to being paralyzed by the fear of whether the woman one wants to approach is a lesbian... That's just not a workable alternative to the two options of asking directly (generally a bad idea) or of laying in the course and risking rejection, the same thing one risks anyway when approaching someone.

So it's just one more potential angle for not having a chance, only this time it's one's genitals rather than distribution of adipose tissue that is the unmet prerequisite.

And so I really can't see how one can get that mad that straight guys occasionally will flirt with and hit on lesbian women.

It is not being straight that makes a man unable to take rejection and move on.

Edit: Especially if one is also deriding straight men for acting like it's the end of the world if a gay guy hits on them or expresses any interest at all. That just reeks of hypocrisy to say it's straight men being illogical and bad to mind gay men hitting on them but that lesbian women are perfectly justified in going into righteous fury and indignation for being approached by straight men.

[WarKitty]

You know, the world would be a lot easier if one could just ask "hey, which ways do you swing?" and not worry about offending.

[Frozen_Feet]

The world would be much easier if one could expect to answer the question without being made fun of.

[Ytaker]

You know, the world would be a lot easier if one could just ask "hey, which ways do you swing?" and not worry about offending.

There's also the problem that people will assume you are not interested in your personality and just want them for sex if you ask that, even if they're not offended.

[WarKitty]

For that matter, the world would be a lot easier if one could turn down a potential suitor without any added complications that aren't strictly results of the rejection itself.

Actually, in my ideal world it wouldn't be strictly necessary to ask which way a person swings, although they would be able to reveal that without it being weird. In my ideal world one could simply ask it a person is interested in you without having to worry about giving offense if you're not the gender they prefer.

[Murdim]

Some people do fit into the sterotype, and draw strength from that stereotype. Heliomance is analysing their behaviour, based on the male stereotype of oversexualized. I myself do the same and actively avoid situations where I know others often fall.

I have, say, avoiding visiting an ex girlfriend because I know of the stereotype that such trips often lead to infidelity. I have substantial control over who I associate with, but have terrible control of my behaviour and a stereotype helps me better control my association.

You yourself have stereotypes.



Men who enjoy showing off straight generally assume that women and gay males are sexually eager about them? That sounds like a stereotype about men who enjoy being straight. Even in the midst of trying to refute a stereotype of men.

It's a rather unjustified stereotype too. I honestly have never seen anything like it in the real world. The vast majority of promiscuous people I know understand that not everyone is attracted to them- indeed they have an acute awareness of it as flirting with more people means that you get refused more. I feel that trying to find the truth or wrongness of stereotypes is more productive than condemning them. And, finding out how common exceptions are.
... crap. I certainly didn't expect that. :smallsigh:

I... don't really know what to answer, really. Partly because a good portion of your message feels like a personal attack, and those things are notably hard to deal with in appropriate way.

Anyway, the part that you quoted to point out "my stereotype" was less something that I actually believe, and more me trying to extrapolate the train of thought that led to Volos' rather bold assumption on all straight men. I... can't imagine how you came into the conclusion that I (or Volos, for that matter) harbored resentment against "men who enjoy being straight", whatever that means.

In the same message, I also said that this kind of things - being unintentionally tactless towards a group of individuals - happened to everyone. "Everyone" includes me. Whatever you might think about me, I already know too well that I'm far from being perfect and that I'm capable of holding some nasty prejudices.

On a lighter note,


I have, say, avoiding visiting an ex girlfriend because I know of the stereotype that such trips often lead to infidelity.
This is not a stereotype. At all. That's more like basic common sense :smallamused: Not every thing that is assumed to be usually true by a number of people constitute what we call a stereotype, you know. And conversely, a stereotype is much more than simply saying that some category of people is usually some way. This is why the stereotypes of men as always seeking sex and women as never enjoying sex for its own sake are wrong and harmful, no matter how many people may recognize themselves in it, while the observation that males tend to have a higher sex drive than females is, well, an observation.



How the hell did you get bashing straight guys out of that? He was, as far as I can tell, expressing that he found those views to be prevalent. Saying "enough straight guys that I've seen behave this way for me to notice a trend" isn't bashing straight guys.

And besides, you are kind of proving his point by assuming that by default women are and should be straight and/or interested in you and available for you to pursue, and that you deserve explanation if otherwise. :smallannoyed:
Wait - why is everyone becoming so aggressive, all of a sudden ? :smalleek:

[WarKitty]

This is not a stereotype. At all. That's more like basic common sense :smallamused: Not every thing that is assumed to be usually true by a number of people constitute what we call a stereotype, you know. And conversely, a stereotype is much more than simply saying that some category of people is usually some way. This is why the stereotypes of men as always seeking sex and women as never enjoying sex for its own sake are wrong and harmful, while the observation that males tend to have a higher sex drive than females is, well, an observation.

Although I have to say, I've had plenty of issues with the stereotype that a man and woman spending time alone with each other must perforce be engaged in sex, or at least desirous of doing so.

[Lix Lorn]

Wait - why is everyone becoming so aggressive, all of a sudden ? :smalleek:
Murdim, LGBTA thread. LGBTA thread, Murdim. :smallfrown::smallcool::smallwink:

[KenderWizard]

I would like to say that stereotyping is not inherently bad. Of course, any given stereotype ("gay men are promiscuous") can be incorrect, misleading, insulting or any combination thereof, but the act of stereotyping is something that allows us to deal with an incomprehensibly complex world by using the information we have to try to work out how to behave in the future, specifically in a social dimension.

[WarKitty]

And on a random note, I present you with a rainbow cat:
http://everydayfunnyfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/awesome-rainbow-cat.jpg

[npc revolution]

D'aawwww.

His eyes are saying "Just look what those F-ing ninjas did to me!"

[Ytaker]

... crap. I certainly didn't expect that. :smallsigh:

I... don't really know what to answer, really. Partly because a good portion of your message feels like a personal attack, and those things are notably hard to deal with in appropriate way.

I'm not sure how you feel that, but it wasn't.


Anyway, the part that you quoted to point out "my stereotype" was less something that I actually believe, and more me trying to extrapolate the train of thought that led to Volos' rather bold assumption on all straight men. I... can't imagine how you came into the conclusion that I (or Volos, for that matter) harbored resentment against "men who enjoy being straight", whatever that means.


Hmm? You said "Only those who never miss one chance to prove their heterosexuality to the entire world really count as straight." because "Many of those men do seem to assume that deep inside, every woman and gay male is as sexually eager about him as he is about the women he's attracted to." I explained that no, in my experience, that stereotype was untrue as they actually had more oppurtunity to test that theory than most people. I didn't say that you harboured resentment against them.

Plus there's the fact that even promiscuous people will have a certain type of person they're generally attracted to.


In the same message, I also said that this kind of things - being unintentionally tactless towards a group of individuals - happened to everyone. "Everyone" includes me. Whatever you might think about me, I already know too well that I'm far from being perfect and that I'm capable of holding some nasty prejudices.

It's not an especially nasty stereotype. It's just, not a very factually accurate one. I try to make it a business of mine to test and challenge my stereotypes to see if they are accurate.


This is not a stereotype. At all. That's more like basic common sense :smallamused: Not every thing that is assumed to be usually true by a number of people constitute what we call a stereotype, you know. And conversely, a stereotype is much more than simply saying that some category of people is usually some way. This is why the stereotypes of men as always seeking sex and women as never enjoying sex for its own sake are wrong and harmful, no matter how many people may recognize themselves in it, while the observation that males tend to have a higher sex drive than females is, well, an observation.

The one of men always seeking sex- that's testable. I've seen it tested. Have an attractive girl show interest in a guy and ask him to sleep with her. The result, in a club, was about 70% yeses. For girls, 100% nos. The one of women never enjoying sex is also very testable. Around 80-90% of girls disagree, and say they have it for pleasure.

The pleasure one is far more harmful because it is factually wrong.

How are you defining stereotype? A common belief about a group of people is how it's normally defined. Such as ex girlfriend being likely to flirt with you. It's not universal. It's not the only thing possible that could happen. But it's a reasonable belief to hold based on the evidence.

Edit, WarKitty


Although I have to say, I've had plenty of issues with the stereotype that a man and woman spending time alone with each other must perforce be engaged in sex, or at least desirous of doing so.

For my girlfriend, I'm definitely aware of the stereotype "Guys and girls are never just friends." It's not always true but it often is, and it helps me work out whether I'm desirous of engaging in sex with another girl and stop being so. It just goes doubly so for exes.

[WarKitty]

The one of men always seeking sex- that's testable. I've seen it tested. Have an attractive girl show interest in a guy and ask him to sleep with her. The result, in a club, was about 70% yeses. For girls, 100% nos. The one of women never enjoying sex is also very testable. Around 80-90% of girls disagree, and say they have it for pleasure.

Ah, but correlation does not equal causation. I know guys who say "yes" and girls who say "no" because they feel pressured to give that answer. In fact that is exactly my assertion - that some men who wish to say no actually say yes because they don't want to be mocked or feel that real men would say yes. Or that (I've seen this one happen) some girls say no because they fear being seen as too easy if they agree to sex with a random guy, even if they want it.

[Ytaker]

Yeah. Even if 70% of guys said yes, 30% said no. 30% of guys refused her. In any stereotype there will always be exceptions.

And there certainly are ladies with a higher sex drive than the majority of men around. Those women really get punished by the false stereotypes about how women should behave. Thankfully, those stereotypes are becoming less prevalent.

[WarKitty]

There's also been some pretty strong demonstrations that stereotypes have a self-reinforcing effect. I don't know of any in the area of sexuality specifically, but I know there have been a few in the area of education. Basically, if a group of students is told before the test that members of their group tend to perform better/worse on the test than others, they perform better/worse than others of the same group who aren't told that. People have a tendency to conform to what others expect of them.

[Ytaker]

Yeah. There are several programs made to specifically improve people's ability in the face of that.

I don't think it would apply to sexuality though. The stereotype threat has been shown to raise heart rate and weaken memory- typical qualities of an adrenaline rush. That's why it effects intelligence. That would be unlikely to force a woman to say no when she wanted to say yes.

[WarKitty]

Yeah. There are several programs made to specifically improve people's ability in the face of that.

I don't think it would apply to sexuality though. The stereotype threat has been shown to raise heart rate and weaken memory- typical qualities of an adrenaline rush. That's why it effects intelligence. That would be unlikely to force a woman to say no when she wanted to say yes.

I was thinking more about internalized stereotypes. And admittedly some of this is from personal experience - if one has internalized the idea that most women don't desire sex, one would tend to feel bad or wrong for desiring sexual contact and thus try to eliminate or deny those feelings.

[RaggedAngel]

I was thinking more about internalized stereotypes. And admittedly some of this is from personal experience - if one has internalized the idea that most women don't desire sex, one would tend to feel bad or wrong for desiring sexual contact and thus try to eliminate or deny those feelings.

I was like this for a while, especially during high school. Then, I had an excellent friend point out the fact that if I was going to be bi, and therefore already be different than the social norm, sex-wise, then I may as well be as open about sex as I wanted to be.

The best part is, he wasn't even trying to get into my pants; it was honest advice. :smallwink:

Oh, also, hugs for everyone, since unhappies have been flying about. *hug*

[Jacklu]

It's one of those ugly glaring blemishes on human sexuality. The expectations of how a given sex should act. As bad as the ways in which society can condone some truly vile behavior on both sides of the sexual fence.

I have been witness to far too many conversations in which a group of guys sit around talking about a particular girl nearby, discussing all the things they would do to her (the idea of "do to" makes me angry enough to see red) and, when she inevitably turns them down, what they ought to do to her. :smallmad:

And on the other side, I have also overheard far too many conversations in which a girl tells her friend how she is going to use some guy for money and if he complains, why, she'll just report him for rape and "that'll teach him." :smallmad:

Of course, I know that such incidents are not indicative of all people, but seeing it enough to know it to be the normal attitude of those who live in my area (and hearing about it from enough people living elsewhere to know it to be the case in many other places as well) certainly doesn't do much to promote a healthy image of mankind in general.

Part of the problem is the idea of privileged ignorance. That is, there is a very prevalent ideology, unspoken and often even unknown to the masses, that even though the human race can be a horrible despicable thing, it is the privilege of the masses to remain ignorant of the flaws and atrocities that plague us. To those who might shout that my above examples are extreme and not the norm, one only needs to open their eyes to the culture they live in and pay attention for examples of it to find those behaviors cropping up all over the place. Are they the norm? I don't know. But they are certainly normal enough to happen without serious social backlash towards the perpetrators.

But this kind of thing happens all the time. The privileged ignorance, that is. The world is an ugly place at times, and I am not trying to taint your world-view or say there is no beauty or good people in it (communities like this are proof enough of that), but to try to claim that there is no ugliness or that the ugliness that others talk about is fake or blown out of proportion for the sake of preserving your sense of well being and hope in the goodness of mankind is downright disgraceful.

Forgive me for getting into this, but when I see knee-jerk, defensive reactions to suggestions like "A lot of straight men in the world think that even if a girl is a lesbian she is still on the market for me to hit on" all I can think of is privileged ignorance to disgusting socially acceptable behavior that nobody talks about in good company because it becomes awkward or uncomfortable.

An example of this is that not long ago somebody mentioned that they dealt with catcalls and vulgar behavior aimed at them all the time (I can't remember who, though I will try to find the relevant post) and the general response was "you're wrong" and "you must be either making this up or exaggerating or a special case for where you live or something" because even the idea that men catcall woman was so outlandishly horrible that no-one wanted to entertain the idea that it could be as bad as the person described.

I've run into this at college as well, in classes filled with very intelligent people pursuing social conscious majors, where people reacted almost violently to subjects like human slavery or cultural privilege (with one person going so far as to say that woman in third world countries who are forced to sell themselves to foreigners to survive are not really that bad off, because doing so is still better than starving and at least they have a way of earning a living.

I'm sorry if I come across as being aggressive or argumentative or angry or accusatory, but just because somebody is one of the incredibly few, extremely lucky people in this world not to have been abused or degraded or objectified or dragged through the mud or seen it happen to others first hand, does not give them the right to curl up and plug their ears with defiant shouts of "That can't be true" and "I won't believe that that actually happens" and go through life facilitating the perpetuation of such despicable things through their privileged ignorance of the fact.

I am done ranting and will now leave the thread to move pleasant topics. If you want to reply to what I said, please wait a little while and read it more than once and give me the benefit of the doubt in regards to poor choice of words or grammatical errors.

-Jacklu

[Coidzor]

An example of this is that not long ago somebody mentioned that they dealt with catcalls and vulgar behavior aimed at them all the time (I can't remember who, though I will try to find the relevant post) and the general response was "you're wrong" and "you must be either making this up or exaggerating or a special case for where you live or something" because even the idea that men catcall woman was so outlandishly horrible that no-one wanted to entertain the idea that it could be as bad as the person described.


It wasn't that catcalling occurred, it was that people behaved that way towards her when she was just a little 13-14 year old kid and were especially bad at the same time.

It caused such intense rage that people couldn't believe that they were so angry about something actually happening, or something along those lines.

Edit:

Forgive me for getting into this, but when I see knee-jerk, defensive reactions to suggestions like "A lot of straight men in the world think that even if a girl is a lesbian she is still on the market for me to hit on" all I can think of is privileged ignorance to disgusting socially acceptable behavior that nobody talks about in good company because it becomes awkward or uncomfortable.

Because they weren't suggestions, they were blanket statements of all straight men being horrible people. Hence why I reacted to them as such. You don't come into this thread to be insulted, nor should anyone.

I guess I'll just have to settle for being happy for privileged enough to move in circles where that isn't socially acceptable behavior. ...Now if only I were a man of wealth and taste....

[Ytaker]

I have been witness to far too many conversations in which a group of guys sit around talking about a particular girl nearby, discussing all the things they would do to her (the idea of "do to" makes me angry enough to see red) and, when she inevitably turns them down, what they ought to do to her. :smallmad:

Yeah. And when people are drunk people start to do these things that they 'ought' to do to her. In vino veritas.


And on the other side, I have also overheard far too many conversations in which a girl tells her friend how she is going to use some guy for money and if he complains, why, she'll just report him for rape and "that'll teach him." :smallmad:

I had a friend who did that. She got the guy expelled from the school.


To those who might shout that my above examples are extreme and not the norm, one only needs to open their eyes to the culture they live in and pay attention for examples of it to find those behaviors cropping up all over the place. Are they the norm? I don't know. But they are certainly normal enough to happen without serious social backlash towards the perpetrators.

The norm is much more mild actions. Feeling up a girl while she's sleeping or semi drunk. Manipulating a guy's desire for her to get him to pay for her drinks, or a free lunch. Most people aren't actively malicious, but are often oppurtunistic in an amoral way.


Forgive me for getting into this, but when I see knee-jerk, defensive reactions to suggestions like "A lot of straight men in the world think that even if a girl is a lesbian she is still on the market for me to hit on" all I can think of is privileged ignorance to disgusting socially acceptable behavior that nobody talks about in good company because it becomes awkward or uncomfortable.

The knee jerk reactions were mostly to the concept that people in this thread had difficult discerning social signals that a girl was not available for flirtation, as opposed to some sort of belief that all women should be available for sex. I personally normally just ask at some point in the conversation when it feels natural.


I'm sorry if I come across as being aggressive or argumentative or angry or accusatory, but just because somebody is one of the incredibly few, extremely lucky people in this world not to have been abused or degraded or objectified or dragged through the mud or seen it happen to others first hand, does not give them the right to curl up and plug their ears with defiant shouts of "That can't be true" and "I won't believe that that actually happens" and go through life facilitating the perpetuation of such despicable things through their privileged ignorance of the fact.

That seems perfectly fair, I'm just not sure if anyone here would disagree with that. I don't know about the previous situation you mentioned, but otherwise it all seems fairly reasonable.

[Jacklu]

The norm is much more mild actions. Feeling up a girl while she's sleeping or semi drunk. Manipulating a guy's desire for her to get him to pay for her drinks, or a free lunch. Most people aren't actively malicious, but are often oppurtunistic in an amoral way.


Um... That would be sexual assault.

[Ytaker]

Hence the amoral tag. It's much more mild than the more extreme things people talk about and do when drunk, though.

There are varying degrees of it also, not all of which would class as sexual assault, some as just innapropriate cuddling.

[Volos]

Volos, from my experiences with him, is a pretty chill dude, and I am certain he has no straight guy hate, considering he's said in this very thread that he's got straight friends he really likes, cause they're chill dudes too. :smallsmile:

This is true.


-snipped-

The norm is much more mild actions. Feeling up a girl while she's sleeping or semi drunk. Manipulating a guy's desire for her to get him to pay for her drinks, or a free lunch. Most people aren't actively malicious, but are often oppurtunistic in an amoral way.

-snipped-

Sexual Assault.

Should be illegal, but males are easy to manipulate...

[Coidzor]

Volos, from my experiences with him, is a pretty chill dude, and I am certain he has no straight guy hate, considering he's said in this very thread that he's got straight friends he really likes, cause they're chill dudes too. :smallsmile:

This is true.


Should be illegal, but males are easy to manipulate...

And yet your words don't seem to indicate much respect for your sex. Quite the opposite, really.

[Volos]

And yet your words don't seem to indicate much respect for your sex. Quite the opposite, really.

I honestly don't have any respect for anyone. I trust people to act in the most amoral way possible. This way I am pleasantly surprised when they do otherwise. This extends to myself, of course.

[Snares]

It is kind of a Thing that straight men are expected or likely to feel uncomfortable around a gay man, but much less so around a gay woman, but it's also the case that plenty aren't, and that plenty of straight women are more uncomfortable around a gay woman than a gay man. I'm sure in at least some cases it's because they don't know how to deal well with the situation if it does happen that the gay person finds them very attractive.

I never really understood this. Yeah, it's awkward for both people if someone is attracted to you and you're not attracted to them (and god knows I've been on both sides of that often enough), but why is it more awkward if the person who's attracted to you is of a gender you're not generally attracted to? :smallconfused: Why does it really matter? All that matters is that they're not attracted to you. Or at least that's my view on things. At least you can say 'hey, even the guys/girls want me'. :smalltongue: I'd find it more awkward if it was a gender you were generally attracted to, but that's maybe just because I have a hard time of it figuring out if I'm really that attracted to someone. At least you know more solidly if they're of the opposite gender. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just not making very much sense (it is 3am, after all).

Also, stereotypes annoy me. Just in general.

[Cobra_Ikari]

For that matter, the world would be a lot easier if one could turn down a potential suitor without any added complications that aren't strictly results of the rejection itself.

Actually, in my ideal world it wouldn't be strictly necessary to ask which way a person swings, although they would be able to reveal that without it being weird. In my ideal world one could simply ask it a person is interested in you without having to worry about giving offense if you're not the gender they prefer.

This is something I could totally get behind.

[npc revolution]

There was an XKCD strip about changing societal norms. Lemme see if I can find it.


{Scrubbed}

[Quincunx]

{Scrubbed}

*****

In other news, the hostility between cycoris and Coidzor is reaching "will they just shag already?" romantic comedy proportions. Maybe that explained arguskos' confusion about location. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

:smalltongue: Well, jail time isn't exactly my cup of tea, madame.

Though it is possible that ladder theory had never been heard of, or that how the behavior was a parody of its view of womanly behavior would not be immediately obvious. I still haven't made the connection, and I've visited the website, though it hasn't been all that recent.

[Lix Lorn]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
I assure you I'm not trying to parody anything, nor to annoy you. I don't even know how this started.

[KenderWizard]

I never really understood this. Yeah, it's awkward for both people if someone is attracted to you and you're not attracted to them (and god knows I've been on both sides of that often enough), but why is it more awkward if the person who's attracted to you is of a gender you're not generally attracted to? :smallconfused: Why does it really matter? All that matters is that they're not attracted to you. Or at least that's my view on things. At least you can say 'hey, even the guys/girls want me'. :smalltongue: I'd find it more awkward if it was a gender you were generally attracted to, but that's maybe just because I have a hard time of it figuring out if I'm really that attracted to someone. At least you know more solidly if they're of the opposite gender. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just not making very much sense (it is 3am, after all).

Also, stereotypes annoy me. Just in general.

I can't be sure, I'm generally very flattered if someone is attracted to me (although one time it was quite upsetting because I was going through a lot at the time). However, I suspect that people are more thrown off if the person is of the same sex as them, especially if they didn't explicitly know that they were gay. *shrugs*

[Danne]

An example of this is that not long ago somebody mentioned that they dealt with catcalls and vulgar behavior aimed at them all the time (I can't remember who, though I will try to find the relevant post) and the general response was "you're wrong" and "you must be either making this up or exaggerating or a special case for where you live or something" because even the idea that men catcall woman was so outlandishly horrible that no-one wanted to entertain the idea that it could be as bad as the person described.

I remember this conversation, and I believe I can be lumped into the "must be because of a special case for where you live or something" group. Part of the issue for me was that the person was acting like catcalls when you walk down the street are the norm and are to be accepted because some people are just like that. I can't remember the last time someone catcalled at me, and it's not like I never travel out of my home state or something. Ergo, catcalling at random people on the street is not the norm, and if it happens to someone regularly, it must be because the people in that particular area are [your favorite derogatory word here] and leaving the area should result in some improvement, though certainly not a perfect world because that doesn't exist.


Hence the amoral tag. It's much more mild than the more extreme things people talk about and do when drunk, though.

There are varying degrees of it also, not all of which would class as sexual assault, some as just innapropriate cuddling.

Not in my state, dearie. That's sexual assault in the fourth degree here. Albeit it's only a misdemeanor (unless the person is under a certain age, in which case it's a felony) but it's still sexual assault.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

:smallconfused: I don't believe she was doing anything of the sort. Especially since I had no idea what you were talking about, either.



http://gaygettingstraightmen.com/blog/gay-dating-online-how-to-tell-potential-lovers-from-obsessed-stalkers.html

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait, stop right there. Forget stereotypes and people who want bedpost notches, am I the only one who has a problem with the this thing? Gay people looking to date straight people? :smallconfused: I mean, what? Isn't this exactly the sort of press we should be avoiding, given the whole "gay people want to turn your straight children gay!!!11!1!" fear-mongering that some people spout?

[Volos]

I remember this conversation, and I believe I can be lumped into the "must be because of a special case for where you live or something" group. Part of the issue for me was that the person was acting like catcalls when you walk down the street are the norm and are to be accepted because some people are just like that. I can't remember the last time someone catcalled at me, and it's not like I never travel out of my home state or something. Ergo, catcalling at random people on the street is not the norm, and if it happens to someone regularly, it must be because the people in that particular area are [your favorite derogatory word here] and leaving the area should result in some improvement, though certainly not a perfect world because that doesn't exist.

-snipped-

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait, stop right there. Forget stereotypes and people who want bedpost notches, am I the only one who has a problem with the this thing? Gay people looking to date straight people? :smallconfused: I mean, what? Isn't this exactly the sort of press we should be avoiding, given the whole "gay people want to turn your straight children gay!!!11!1!" fear-mongering that some people spout?

I have had to deal with people catcalling me and my fiancée at different times and I have found it not only degrading but quite annoying. We are moving away from Arizona so it isn't nearly as bad anymore. Back in Arizona is seems to be a 'sport' among Latinos to do drive by catcalling with vulgar language. I'm not making any sort of judgment, just an observation. Of the people who have catcalled my fiancée and I, 100% were Latinos using vulgar language to degrade us shortly before asking if we would sleep with them. It happened somewhere between 50-60 different times and as far as I can tell, they were all different people. A good fourth of the catcalls came from minors who didn't even know how to curse properly. I don't know what it is about Arizona, but I'm kinda glad to be moving away from there. Hopefully people will be more respectful where I am headed.

And I find this idea of gays looking to date straight people as disturbing as straight guys wanting to get with lesbians. It doesn't help the LGBTA community as a whole either because of the fear-mongering that people spout, giving them something to complain about. Now if it was something like gay guys wanting to hit on apparently straight guys to make them come out of the closet... maybe. Why can't we live in a world where we all accept each other for the way we are? I like that idea that was mentioned for a world where we could express interest without worrying about offending people. All it takes is courage on the part of the one asking and an ability to be calm and non-judgmental on the part of the person asked.

Oh, and on a side note. While I don't respect people, I do accept them for who they are. It is an odd way to view the world, but that's how I am. I am an ultimate pessimist. I expect the worst from people but I don't hate anyone. Everyone is free to be who they are; I only seem to be bothered by those who cannot accept others as they are.

[Jokasti]

I don't know what it is about Arizona, but I'm kinda glad to be moving away from there.

Mayhaps because Arizona is sure to have a higher Latino presence due to it's border with Mexico? That's what I would guess, at least.

[Volos]

Mayhaps because Arizona is sure to have a higher Latino presence due to it's border with Mexico? That's what I would guess, at least.

I like latinos (I actually had a crush on a cute latino guy a while back) but for some reason they do the catcalling thing in Arizona. Whereas in Califonia it didn't seem to ever happen.

[Jokasti]

I like latinos (I actually had a crush on a cute latino guy a while back) but for some reason they do the catcalling thing in Arizona. Whereas in Califonia it didn't seem to ever happen.

Hmm. A test, then. Go to a border of Arizona and see if they catcall on both sides. Like, right on the line. Then we'll know if it's Arizona. :smallcool:

[Volos]

Hmm. A test, then. Go to a border of Arizona and see if they catcall on both sides. Like, right on the line. Then we'll know if it's Arizona. :smallcool:

:smallamused: Fair enough. I will see if I can't test it when I head back to Arizona to get our funerature and whatnot.

On a more fun note, has anyone ever been attracted to someone that normally isn't within what you concider your 'type'? I have a gay friend who says that he is gay 99% of the time but once a year he finds himself looking a woman and thinking that she is kinda interesting shortly before going back to full on gay. I had this short of thing go on before I discovered that I was Bi (a long and confusing process). The question is mostly for those of you who are either straight, gay, or lesbian. Is your attraction always in line with your supposed interests or does it vary on occasion?

[Pinnacle]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait, stop right there. Forget stereotypes and people who want bedpost notches, am I the only one who has a problem with the this thing? Gay people looking to date straight people? :smallconfused: I mean, what? Isn't this exactly the sort of press we should be avoiding, given the whole "gay people want to turn your straight children gay!!!11!1!" fear-mongering that some people spout?

Comparing that particular article to the apparent general purpose of the site it's on makes my brain hurt.
:smallsigh:

[golentan]

Volos: Yes. Very much. For example, I tend not to go for muscly types, but every once in a while I'll be at the gym and some weightlifter will walk by and they'll suddenly have a second pool.

Irritated now. Why can't I ever go on a date with a guy without people asking if I've decided I'm gay now. NO! Just like last time you asked, I'm quite comfortable being attracted to both men and women. And the next time you ask, the answer will be the same. Why is this so hard to grasp?

[DeadManSleeping]

In regards to the recent topic of "gay people wanting to date straight people", I can assure you that plenty of gay people have been attracted to straight people. People have talked about being attracted to straight people in the LGBTAitp thread. It happens. Don't say that it doesn't happen, like some people are.

Now, it's certainly not something to fret over. People have one-sided attraction for plenty of reasons, and orientation shouldn't be considered special among them. How one acts about a one-sided attraction is an issue completely separate from orientation and is based on personality and maturity, which are individual merits/faults that should be treated as such.

[Coidzor]

In regards to the recent topic of "gay people wanting to date straight people", I can assure you that plenty of gay people have been attracted to straight people. People have talked about being attracted to straight people in the LGBTAitp thread. It happens. Don't say that it doesn't happen, like some people are.

Err, that's not the issue. The issue is the idea of a dedicated subculture that intends to turn straight men gay. Or have sex with straight men. It's just weird. And reminds people of individuals like Jerry Falwell and all of the hate they've stirred up over the years.

And really, if they're successful, then it just tells us that the person they just slept with wasn't straight.

[Volos]

Volos: Yes. Very much. For example, I tend not to go for muscly types, but every once in a while I'll be at the gym and some weightlifter will walk by and they'll suddenly have a second pool.

Irritated now. Why can't I ever go on a date with a guy without people asking if I've decided I'm gay now. NO! Just like last time you asked, I'm quite comfortable being attracted to both men and women. And the next time you ask, the answer will be the same. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Interesting, I am going to guess that the second pool has something to do with exessive amount of sweating?

And I understand how you feel. A good number of my lesbian and gay friends think that bisexuals are a myth. We go around to talking about it as a group and they have decided that people are either straight or gay/lesbian and there is no inbetween. I am of a different opinion. There is no straight, no gay, no lesbian, no bisexual, no asexual. People are attracted to who they are attracted to. I am [my fiancee's name]-sexual. She is the only person who I am attracted to right now and the only one that I have a sexual orientation toward. If you a guy and are attracted to Carl, Danny, and Liam; most people would say you are gay. I would say you are Carl, Danny, and Liam-sexual. Many of you may disagree with me, but I think it could be an interesting step to a better world. Instead of labling people by their orientation we just let them be. I've been thinking of how to extent this sort of non-label to other factors of a person but have so far been having a hard time thinking of how to do it.

[Coidzor]

Many of you may disagree with me, but I think it could be an interesting step to a better world.

Indeed, for issues of needless specificity and cumbersomeness if nothing else.

[golentan]

I was going with "drool."

Not sure I agree with the rest, but I do think that people make too big a deal of orientations and labelling.

[Jokasti]

Interesting, I am going to guess that the second pool has something to do with exessive amount of sweating?

And I understand how you feel. A good number of my lesbian and gay friends think that bisexuals are a myth. We go around to talking about it as a group and they have decided that people are either straight or gay/lesbian and there is no inbetween. I am of a different opinion. There is no straight, no gay, no lesbian, no bisexual, no asexual. People are attracted to who they are attracted to. I am [my fiancee's name]-sexual. She is the only person who I am attracted to right now and the only one that I have a sexual orientation toward. If you a guy and are attracted to Carl, Danny, and Liam; most people would say you are gay. I would say you are Carl, Danny, and Liam-sexual. Many of you may disagree with me, but I think it could be an interesting step to a better world. Instead of labling people by their orientation we just let them be. I've been thinking of how to extent this sort of non-label to other factors of a person but have so far been having a hard time thinking of how to do it.

Everyone is Pansexual, just some people haven't been attracted to members of their own gender yet and some have? I can dig it.

[Coidzor]

I was going with "drool."

Not sure I agree with the rest, but I do think that people make too big a deal of orientations and labelling.

Well, yeah, but that extends to the wider world outside of who could want to sleep with who.

I mean, subcultures, fans of music segregating themselves off from those who decide to flock to a different banner and the attendant idea that one can't have varied tastes in music, class distinctions and friction... Then there's the Racial and Non-Board-Safe tensions and, of course, still worse things.

[Volos]

Everyone is Pansexual, just some people haven't been attracted to members of their own gender yet and some have? I can dig it.

Not quite what I was going for. More that there is no sexuality only attraction.

[golentan]

Well, yeah, but that extends to the wider world outside of who could want to sleep with who.

I mean, subcultures, fans of music segregating themselves off from those who decide to flock to a different banner and the attendant idea that one can't have varied tastes in music, class distinctions and friction... Then there's the Racial and Non-Board-Safe tensions and, of course, still worse things.

Believe me, I know that all too well.

[unosarta]

Volos: Yes. Very much. For example, I tend not to go for muscly types, but every once in a while I'll be at the gym and some weightlifter will walk by and they'll suddenly have a second pool.

Irritated now. Why can't I ever go on a date with a guy without people asking if I've decided I'm gay now. NO! Just like last time you asked, I'm quite comfortable being attracted to both men and women. And the next time you ask, the answer will be the same. Why is this so hard to grasp?

I think for a lot of people, the idea of someone being attracted to both genders is something that is scary, and that they should be afraid of. It seems like some people have solace in the fact that in social situations, there is almost always some sort of gender that another person will not be attracted to, and therefore will not have a sexually charged conversation. A lot of people seem to have a truly hard time talking about sex, especially in America. It is an awkward subject, one you are supposed to shy away from. Whenever anyone makes a sex joke, or interjects with a sexually related parallel, even if it is relevant to the conversation, it pretty much kills the conversation. Also, the idea of something so different (I mean, honestly, bi-sexual people are kind of in a minority. There are, all things equal, 4 different kinds of attraction towards one gender per one gender (Lesbian, gay, straight (male), straight (female)), as compared to two different kinds of attraction towards both genders from per one gender (bi-sexual (male), bi-sexual (female))).

The idea of being bi-sexual, even for me (and I have a few bi-sexual friends IRL), is kind of alien. Some people take this too far, and say that it is impossible to be bi-sexual, and that you have to be one or the other, but they are probably only saying this because the idea of bi-sexuality is just terrifyingly alien to people.

[Volos]

The idea of being bi-sexual, even for me (and I have a few bi-sexual friends IRL), is kind of alien. Some people take this too far, and say that it is impossible to be bi-sexual, and that you have to be one or the other, but they are probably only saying this because the idea of bi-sexuality is just terrifyingly alien to people.

The group that I had mentioned earlier was meeting to discuss how we all felt about varrious forms of discrimination against LGBTA youth and young adults. After we had discussed how fear-mongering, jokes at the expense of the LGBTA community, and different forms of bullying against LGBTA we were somehow transported to the topic of 'Bisexuals... Myth or Reality?' While the discussion was fairly light and no one meant any offense, I found myself understanding the position of Lesbian or Gay individuals and how they felt when being discriminated by friends or family. Allow me to explain.

As a bisexual, when I come out to my friends or family while still dating someone of the opposite gender, I get a sort of false acceptance. Some of my friends and family are fine with how I am or couldn't care one way or the other. But some are not so accepting, but they pretend to be because I'm still with someone of the opposite gender. For all they care, I'm straight and the conversation about me being Bi never happened.

But when I was in a group that I thought had accepted me and was told right to my face that most of my close friends not only didn't accept my orientation, they didn't even believe it exsisted. It was painful to think that such an intregal part of myself was being ignored by those around me. But this must be how my Gay and Lesbian friends felt when they came out to someone or a group that didn't believe that you could be gay or lesbian. "It's just a phase, you'll get over it." Is one of the most terrible things someone could say to a LGBTA person who is coming out to them.

In the end I talked to my friends and we sorted things out. They now believe that bi-sexuals exsist (but they say that I'm still strange... that may just be me) and I feel welcome amoung them again.

[Jokasti]

I... never really understood how people can say bisexuality doesn't exist.

[unosarta]

I... never really understood how people can say bisexuality doesn't exist.

Yeah, to be honest, people who say that and believe it are idiots. That is like saying that sexuality is a psychological disorder, or that people who are transgender are betraying their "true gender". I have heard all of these as arguments, and they all make me sick.

@Volos; I wasn't arguing that bi-sexuality doesn't exist. I was trying to explain why I thought people react in the way they do.

[Volos]

@Volos; I wasn't arguing that bi-sexuality doesn't exist. I was trying to explain why I thought people react in the way they do.

I know you weren't saying that, it just led into what I felt like sharing. Sorry for any confusion.:smallfrown:

[unosarta]

I know you weren't saying that, it just led into what I felt like sharing. Sorry for any confusion.:smallfrown:

No problem. Yeah, that is depressing and terrible that someone would basically say that your sexuality doesn't exist at an LGBT meeting, or something of the like.

[KenderWizard]

I... never really understood how people can say bisexuality doesn't exist.

Me neither. I never heard of that, but then, people don't talk about sexuality much, so I suppose it could be possible that people I know think it, and I don't know they do.

I subscribe to the idea that sexuality is a sliding scale, not a group of boxes (perhaps: same sex, both sexes, opposite sex, n/a). There are probability clusters, for example around the "only members of the opposite sex" point, and people choose to define themselves based on a convenient label that will get the key part of their sexuality across. There are different levels and types of attraction, and I think anyone could find themselves attracted to anyone else at some level, and that would be fine. I know I've had funny semi-attractions to people!

[Heliomance]

And then there's the difference between attraction and sexual attraction. I can appreciate a hot guy, and enjoy looking at them. I'm pretty sure that as I am now, though, I could never be in a relationship with another guy, and the idea of actually having sex with one disgusts me. Also, wangs looks ridiculous.

Interestingly, though, I think that's largely a product of the idea of two male bodies together holding no attraction for me. I suspect that, all else being equal, if I had a female body I'd be pretty much completely bisexual. Iono.

[Da Beast]

Since this thread has been serious for something like three straight pages now, bagpipes! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s3TyvP1NG0) (also I just like that song and I'm not really involved in any other social threads)

[Lyesmith]

Dylan Moran on Wangs. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4yF5iTvfRA) They do look seriously odd.

I can get bisexuality as a concept, but I couldn't do it myself. Of course, I'm intending to broach the subject with Fencer Gentleman, gain some ground there.

I can get why people say it's not real. People thing false things a lot, it's not a difficult concept.

EDIT : Also, why is there an A? Is it for LGBTAcronym or something?

[Mystic Muse]

It's for Asexual.

[Ytaker]

I... never really understood how people can say bisexuality doesn't exist.

Probably because of the idea that everyone has to have a fixed role. That even if you do males and females you only love one, as you can only love one gender at a time. A false idea.

I've heard some people say that they believe certain others will settle into a roll, gayness or straightness, and bisexuality is only a phase. Gay straight or lying, as some homosexuals put it. False.


im gay, but i still don't think bisexuality is real. Like i think bisexuailty is just a phase and eventually u pick to be gay or straight.

From the internet, an ask yahoo question.

Also, a couple other things. Katy Perry lesbians, who kiss to show off to guys. I've heard expressed the view that many or most bisexual females are doing it for male attention. Again, false.


Its irritating yes. I think most would agree with me on this as well.

They do it for the attention of men and it kind of makes us look bad in a way. It makes it seem like lesbianism isnt an actual thing, its just girls being silly.

Also from yahoo answers.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Also, a couple other things. Katy Perry lesbians, who kiss to show off to guys. I've heard expressed the view that many or most bisexual females are doing it for male attention. Again, false.

Lesbians may not, but I've known girls who have done it. And it works. The straight guys in the room go nuts.

[Volos]

So what could do with more rainbows? (attempt to lighten the mood) My number one pick for things that need more rainbows or need to be rainbow colored... attack dogs. Imagine how frightened intruders would be if the attack dogs were rainbow colored. Probably not at all :smallannoyed:, but then that means they would be too busy being puzzled or too busy laughing to run away. And you know what that means? Your attack dogs actually get to do something rather than just look meanacing for a few moments before the intruder climbs a tree or drops a steak or something.

[Da Beast]

More rainbows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OlAXF3_KG0) you say? :smallamused:

[Serpentine]

Relevant again: http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/serpentine16/sexuality.gif*
Categories and gradients aren't mutually exclusive. The categories define particular parts of the gradients. They stand firm at their centre and/or the extremes, but they blur together at the edges. This goes for pretty much any set of categories - up to and including the very scientific concept of whole species. As long as it is remembered that they are merely imperfect descriptions, they are very useful - and, indeed, unavoidable - conceptive tools.



*Yeah, I know it's still months and months - a year or so? - out of date. I may get round to updating it eventually. Maybe not... But, as an aside, I've been thinking about changing the Y-axis to Gender: Masculine/Feminine, instead. Thoughts?

[Coidzor]

*Yeah, I know it's still months and months - a year or so? - out of date. I may get round to updating it eventually. Maybe not... But, as an aside, I've been thinking about changing the Y-axis to Gender: Masculine/Feminine, instead. Thoughts?

:smallconfused: I think that'd be kinda unethical to assume that the same Y-axis value for one's desire for sex would also translate into the same Y-axis value for one's own gender. I mean, it'd be perpetuating one of those stereotypes that was being railed about earlier if you make asexual = female and hypersexual = male....

Now, making an entirely new one, that'd be something that people would probably enjoy.

[Serpentine]

What? :smallconfused: That's not what I meant at all. I meant, I'm thinking of getting rid of that axis entirely and replacing it with one based on gender. With all new data points. Guess I probably should've mentioned that last bit... But no, of course that's not what I meant :smallannoyed:

[Viera Champion]

I dunno about you guys but my personal opinion on sexuality comes from Boy meets Boy.

"Everyone likes boys. Even Lesbians if you're feminine enough."

It's true.

[Dispozition]

*Yeah, I know it's still months and months - a year or so? - out of date. I may get round to updating it eventually. Maybe not... But, as an aside, I've been thinking about changing the Y-axis to Gender: Masculine/Feminine, instead. Thoughts?

Oh wow mine is so different now...Sort of scary. Also yes, change to masculine/feminine (: