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Another_Poet
2010-12-31, 02:09 AM
So I'm considering running a game that takes place in 1850's Minnesota. Two industrial cities, hundreds of steamboats, a handful of trains, and endless acres of wilderness. Tycoons willing to stab each other in the back to make a half dollar - or better yet, hire the PCs to do the stabbing.

I haven't chosen a system yet, but have heard of d20 Modern and am curious how it plays.

What do you think of it? Fun? Awesome? Not so much?

Mongoose87
2010-12-31, 02:23 AM
It's decent. If you're experienced with 3.X DnD, it'll be easy to learn. It tends to have underpowered guns, and that only gets worse, as you level. High levels can be silly, and not unbalanced or rocket tag silly, so much as swallowing a rocket and hardly blinking.

Cespenar
2010-12-31, 02:56 AM
At least it has the Damage Threshold rule, which D&D 3.5 doesn't have. It makes guns a little more deadly, even against high leveled targets. For example, in theory, a level 20 character can be blindsided by a mook with a shotgun, receive 2d8 damage which may get over the his Con score, fail a massive damage save (DC 15, hard to botch at that level, but still), and get dropped to -1 hp.

sonofzeal
2010-12-31, 03:14 AM
- very similar to 3.5 D&D

- multiclassing is very much encourages

- wealth is handled... awkwardly; you may want to consider something closer to classic D&D rules of actual wealth, rather than categories.

Alleran
2010-12-31, 03:19 AM
I personally prefer Spycraft (and the Stargate d20, which is pretty much Spycraft version 1.5), but the standard one isn't so bad.

Elvenoutrider
2010-12-31, 09:53 AM
One of the most aweful systems i have ever played.

problem 1) D20 combat rules work fine for crossbows but break down when it comes to guns that can fire sometimes up to 600 bullets per minute which is equal to 60 bullets in a round of combat. Probably within your first session one of your players will say "my character levels the gun at the (target) and holds down the trigger filling him with bullets, and then get angry when you say that he is forced to only fire a number of times his bab specifies (the feats do very little to make this more realistic because even a burst fire or autofire would leave 4 seconds left in a round that a pc could conceivably do something.

This is the shortened version and one example of how the way firearms are treated doesnt work

problem 2) a few feats make unarmed strikes deal far more damage than any melee weapon. Player that exploit this will pick up a melee weapon and bitch about how the system doesnt make sense and they have no reason to use any other character

problem 3) poorly constructed wealth system - while it streamlines things it offeres no reason why your players cant say "I buy all hte ammo I will ever need." With no magic items players will run out of things to buy very quickly and lose interest - this is more of a setting issue than a system issue but needs to be brought up nonetheless as d20 modern offeres a very poor selection of magic items and a half assed conversion method to bring items from d&d 3.5 into d20 modern

problem 4)No tension - lack of hit locations combined with lots of hp and low damage from guns means that beyond 2nd level gunfights are not tense or deadly

problem 5) This isnt truly important but seriously did they even bother proofreading the books for even the simplest spelling and grammer mistakes. I feel like that would have been incredibly easy to do.


Conclusion: Give it a miss. Some of these things can be mixed with house rules but don't bother, just save yourself the trouble and go with one of the many successful modern systems out there. ry gurps, shadowrun, WOD, Anything but this system.

Yora
2010-12-31, 10:01 AM
When playing a modern or future game, I actually prefer to make a simple conversion of Star Wars Saga. Kick out the Jedi classes and force powers, and refluff all the blasters as regular guns and you have a very good non-fantasy d20 game.
d20 Modern seems more like a not so well done conversion of 3.5e. But Saga has all the good ideas introduced by d20 Modern (like Talents) but integrates them into a much better whole. However, since the game only has the Scoundrel, Scout, Soldier, and Noble classes, it might not work so well for a game with more ordinary characters.

I never tried it for a 1850s game, but I think it shouldn't be much of a problem as the game is made in a way that you can go into firefights without body armor, though it's available.

Tyndmyr
2010-12-31, 10:20 AM
Eesh, lotsa myths here. I've actually played D20m a fair bit. Lets go over some of these.


One of the most aweful systems i have ever played.

problem 1) D20 combat rules work fine for crossbows but break down when it comes to guns that can fire sometimes up to 600 bullets per minute which is equal to 60 bullets in a round of combat. Probably within your first session one of your players will say "my character levels the gun at the (target) and holds down the trigger filling him with bullets, and then get angry when you say that he is forced to only fire a number of times his bab specifies (the feats do very little to make this more realistic because even a burst fire or autofire would leave 4 seconds left in a round that a pc could conceivably do something.

Most guns don't actually have a sustained rof anywhere close to that. For one thing, actually aiming takes a certain amount of time. For another, most firearms require reloading before 60 rounds have been fired.

Autofire is 10 rounds at a time. You can dual wield automatic weapons, and use heroic surge to fire twice in a round. That's 40 rounds down range in 6 seconds. That's pretty heavy on firepower. It's pretty good for modeling personal weapons.


problem 2) a few feats make unarmed strikes deal far more damage than any melee weapon. Player that exploit this will pick up a melee weapon and bitch about how the system doesnt make sense and they have no reason to use any other character

Er, what? With brawl, improved brawl, streetfighting, knockout punch, and improved knockout punch(note that this requires a hefty dose of levels to get), you can get a whopping 1d8+str damage.

You also get the abilities to do triple damage on a crit, autocrit when you hit someone flat footed on the first round of combat only, and do +1d4 damage once per combat. EVERYTHING listed applies only to nonlethal damage. So, you're good at knocking out the guard so your teammates can slip past. Meh.

Even the humble longsword does 1d8 + str damage out of the box, and it has a 19-20 crit range. So, without any feat investment at all, it's actually pretty close.

On the bright side, martial artists in D20m do have a niche, and a good PrC option. Therefore, they are more balanced than monks in D&D, but not displacing other melee options.


problem 3) poorly constructed wealth system - while it streamlines things it offeres no reason why your players cant say "I buy all hte ammo I will ever need." With no magic items players will run out of things to buy very quickly and lose interest - this is more of a setting issue than a system issue but needs to be brought up nonetheless as d20 modern offeres a very poor selection of magic items and a half assed conversion method to bring items from d&d 3.5 into d20 modern

Once you get to a certain level of wealth, yes, you can easily buy all the ammo you'll ever need. This is hardly a problem. You still cannot carry all the ammo you will ever need. This objection also only applies to standard ammo, not grenades and things. Once you're at the level of wealth where personal planes and ships are within your grasp to purchase, calculating out the cost of buying a few boxes of ammo is generally irrelevant.

D20M isn't terribly magical compared to D&D. In fact, all magic is optional, and may not be included in any given campaign. Yes, you never get things equivalent to the highest level spells in D&D. This is good. It stops the world from breaking. Magic is still plenty powerful.


problem 4)No tension - lack of hit locations combined with lots of hp and low damage from guns means that beyond 2nd level gunfights are not tense or deadly

Any hit that deals damage > con score triggers massive damage, which is actually relevant in this system. Without wish and magic items everywhere, stats don't get boosted much. Standard personal weapons are available with up to 2d12 damage out of the box, before any bonuses are added on.

Combat remains lethal. Vastly more than in D&D.


problem 5) This isnt truly important but seriously did they even bother proofreading the books for even the simplest spelling and grammer mistakes. I feel like that would have been incredibly easy to do.

Spelling and grammEr, you say?


Conclusion: Give it a miss. Some of these things can be mixed with house rules but don't bother, just save yourself the trouble and go with one of the many successful modern systems out there. ry gurps, shadowrun, WOD, Anything but this system.

Ugh, no.

Shadowrun is good in a shadowrun world. This world is not very much like 1850's minnesota at all.

WOD is again, setting specific. It's filled with supernatural bits. If you're not a fan of all this, well...you're gonna do a lot of work. It is a type of modern setting, but it is not a generic modern system.

Gurps, well...it's completely generic. You can do anything with gurps if you want to. Unfortunately, ditto for your players. This means you've got to sort through everything to figure out what you want to allow. Kinda a pita. D20M is vastly faster to get started with.

Tengu_temp
2010-12-31, 11:00 AM
Read and decide for yourself. (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Home.php)

Mordokai
2010-12-31, 11:35 AM
I like d20M. Big part is, for me at least, a lack of magic. That isn't saying magick isn't present and you can in fact play a magic heavy campaign within the system. However, in your regular d20M game, magic missile is pretty much awe and shock if anybody sees you. Forget about fireballs and prismatic spheres and whatnot, you're not getting those. However, as said, to me that is a big plus. One of my friends hated the system because of the very same thing.

It all comes down to preferences.

Tengu_temp
2010-12-31, 12:13 PM
The lack of magic means that it's much harder to break, at least.

DwarfFighter
2010-12-31, 12:28 PM
One of the most aweful systems i have ever played.


The level of realism is comparable to an episode of the A-team.

If this is good or bad is up to you to decide; I love it.

-T10

Ravens_cry
2010-12-31, 12:38 PM
Four words why I love D20 Modern.
Duct Tape of Repair.
I guess you wouldn't have that in a game of six-shooters and stage coaches,but it is still the most awesome magic item ever.

hamishspence
2010-12-31, 12:44 PM
The lack of magic means that it's much harder to break, at least.

In Urban Arcana- there is the Incantation system for high level magic- which is a bit like Epic Magic in D&D- but with not so many ways of cheesing it out.

They can't have Knowledge (arcane lore) DCs of less than 30.
They can't cost more than 1000 XP to cast.
They can't get more than a -10 modifier for extra secondary casters (101+ total secondary casters grants -10 to DC)
Allowing the backlash to affect secondary casters only reduces the DC of the spell by 1.
They can't take less than 60 minutes to cast.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-12-31, 12:49 PM
Eesh, lotsa myths here. I've actually played D20m a fair bit. Lets go over some of these.



Most guns don't actually have a sustained rof anywhere close to that. For one thing, actually aiming takes a certain amount of time. For another, most firearms require reloading before 60 rounds have been fired.

Autofire is 10 rounds at a time. You can dual wield automatic weapons, and use heroic surge to fire twice in a round. That's 40 rounds down range in 6 seconds. That's pretty heavy on firepower. It's pretty good for modeling personal weapons.



Er, what? With brawl, improved brawl, streetfighting, knockout punch, and improved knockout punch(note that this requires a hefty dose of levels to get), you can get a whopping 1d8+str damage.

You also get the abilities to do triple damage on a crit, autocrit when you hit someone flat footed on the first round of combat only, and do +1d4 damage once per combat. EVERYTHING listed applies only to nonlethal damage. So, you're good at knocking out the guard so your teammates can slip past. Meh.

Even the humble longsword does 1d8 + str damage out of the box, and it has a 19-20 crit range. So, without any feat investment at all, it's actually pretty close.

On the bright side, martial artists in D20m do have a niche, and a good PrC option. Therefore, they are more balanced than monks in D&D, but not displacing other melee options.



Once you get to a certain level of wealth, yes, you can easily buy all the ammo you'll ever need. This is hardly a problem. You still cannot carry all the ammo you will ever need. This objection also only applies to standard ammo, not grenades and things. Once you're at the level of wealth where personal planes and ships are within your grasp to purchase, calculating out the cost of buying a few boxes of ammo is generally irrelevant.

D20M isn't terribly magical compared to D&D. In fact, all magic is optional, and may not be included in any given campaign. Yes, you never get things equivalent to the highest level spells in D&D. This is good. It stops the world from breaking. Magic is still plenty powerful.



Any hit that deals damage > con score triggers massive damage, which is actually relevant in this system. Without wish and magic items everywhere, stats don't get boosted much. Standard personal weapons are available with up to 2d12 damage out of the box, before any bonuses are added on.

Combat remains lethal. Vastly more than in D&D.

Wee! I didn't have to make this post myself, woo! Agree on all counts. If you've played D&D then d20 modern will be a cinch to pick up and learn how to play and it is my favorite system due to the simple wealth of settings one can represent with ease.

1800s Minnesota? I'd suggest finding d20 Past somewhere since it has rules for older firearms as well as for horse-based travel, train-based, etc.

Important thing to keep in mind though is it's based on cinematic principles moreso then realistic one. It's meant for action-movie like scenarios.

Eldan
2010-12-31, 12:58 PM
My problem with it was that, at least for us, it was boring. Classes all felt the same, and every class ability seemed to come down to "+2 bonus on this or that".

Closet_Skeleton
2010-12-31, 01:44 PM
WOD is again, setting specific. It's filled with supernatural bits. If you're not a fan of all this, well...you're gonna do a lot of work. It is a type of modern setting, but it is not a generic modern system.

New World of Darkness isn't setting specific. Only its subgames are.

I liked d20 modern when it was new. Now it feels like crappy Saga Edition and almost unplayable.

The supplements are also a massive letdown in quality compared to the main book. d20 Future is one of the most inconsistant and bizare rulebooks ever published by WotC and Urban Arcana is a terrible campaign setting (Shadowrun but dumber and without the cyberpunk to make up for it) with some salvagable rules (the advanced classes seem mostly useless).

Salbazier
2010-12-31, 01:49 PM
I just read the SRD today. The range increment for longarms... seems underwhelming for me. I do not have any expereince with any real riflearms so I don't know for sure. But a sniper rifle (PSG1) as listed posses only 90 ft range increment (and thus 900 ft max range) when wikipedia states that its effective range is 800m :smallconfused:

Closet_Skeleton
2010-12-31, 02:03 PM
I just read the SRD today. The range increment for longarms... seems underwhelming for me. I do not have any expereince with any real riflearms so I don't know for sure. But a sniper rifle (PSG1) as listed posses only 90 ft range increment (and thus 900 ft max range) when wikipedia states that its effective range is 800m :smallconfused:

You can double that range with feats, classes and accessories.

Kuma Kode
2010-12-31, 03:01 PM
I love d20 Modern, but it has its flaws, like any system. Unfortunately, it seems most of its problems stem from the fact that Wizards of the Coast just didn't put the effort into it they could have. There's bits left out and typos that sometimes cloud the meaning, particularly in the sourcebook additions.

Pros:
Built around no magic.
Simple to learn for D&D players.
Melee, and even unarmed combat ability, is actually viable in most settings.
Better core balance than D&D (Fast hero's a bit front-loaded, though).
Generic classes + starting occupation + advanced classes allows you to approximate any concept
Guns are rather generic (good for the non-gun-nut).

Cons:
As mentioned above, low quality addons, particularly d20 Future (how long is one purchase of duracable?).
Guns are rather generic (bad for the gun-nut).
Somewhat awkward application of non-lethal damage that some people simply do not like (makes sense if you squint and turn your head a bit, though).

Gun maximum range is off if you take specialists into account, without special advanced classes. It's not that far off for most applications, though.

Personally, I like to attach Vitality and Wound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) to the system, and maybe Sanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) if I'm running a horror.