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DataPacRat
2010-12-31, 03:35 AM
I've nailed down most of the details I want for my prospective cursed-into-rodent-form wizard, including that I'll be aiming him for Geometer once he hits level 7. What I'm also trying to build him towards... is some non-evil method of immortality that he can apply to himself and to others. I found a guide on another forum to several methods of preventing old age from necessarily leading to death, of which two seem to be most useful.

The first is a spell from Dragon magazine, issue 354; 9th level, cannot be cast on the caster, requires a 4000 gp magic item and costs 5000 XP. The description states that everyone who knew the spell died, so it would presumably have to be re-researched from scratch - which will, it seems, have to wait until my PC reaches 17th level, unless there's some method by which he can start fiddling with 9th level spells before then. (Is there?)

The second is a cute little chain - using the Craft Contingent Spell feat (from Complete Arcane) to prepare a Limited Wish to imitate the effects of the Last Breath spell (Spell Compendium) which imitates most of the effects of Reincarnate, but without level loss. The Craft feat has a minimum caster level of 11, and since Limited Wish is 7th level, the caster needs to be at least 13th level... and the crafting itself requires the expenditure of 10 days, 664 XP, and 4550 gp of raw materials. Still, for the equivalent of a 1-UP mushroom, that's not too shabby. But 13th level still takes a good bit of effort to reach. Are there any ways for a determined young wizard to cast a 7th level spell before reaching 13th level? And if so, are there any meta-feats or PrC's or the like that could let Craft Contingent Spell be acquired before 11th?

Fenryr
2010-12-31, 04:33 AM
What feat do you want for level 1? You may use Wedded to History from the same Dragon Magazine.

This guide, btw? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0)

DataPacRat
2010-12-31, 09:46 AM
What feat do you want for level 1? You may use Wedded to History from the same Dragon Magazine.

This guide, btw? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0)

Yes, that guide. :)

Wedded to History doesn't quite accomplish my goals. For one, it is explicitly for characters that were "born in the distant past", while my curious and determined young wizard is, well, young. For another, even if that weren't the case, said young wizard isn't just seeking the secret of immortality to use for himself - he wants the secret of immortality in order to use it for everyone. (And no, he's not going to popularize a method of immortality that requires killing people; that would defeat the entire point.)


(An inspirational quote, describing said young wizard's viewpoint to a T: "There is no justice in the laws of Nature... no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky. But they don't have to! We care! There is light in the world, and it is us!")

olentu
2010-12-31, 06:26 PM
Hmm I suppose creating undead is evil and so making humanoids of sufficiently high level into necropolitans would not be what you are looking for. Of course with that viewpoint the character in question may just not care about making non evil undead.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-12-31, 06:32 PM
Hmm I suppose creating undead is evil and so making humanoids of sufficiently high level into necropolitans would not be what you are looking for. Of course with that viewpoint the character in question may just not care about making non evil undead.

Heck, just refluff the Necropolitian template to grant un-ending life and call it a day. Remove all the granted features, make the ceremony cost either 1 level or something like 2-3,000 XP, and call it a day.

Maybe make it require a specific spell...say, cannot be cast on yourself, takes X hours or X days and a group of casters to perform...maybe something like a 5th-7th level spell?

Immortality from old age doesn't really ever drastically affect a campaign, so I'd let that pass.

DataPacRat
2010-12-31, 06:59 PM
Heck, just refluff the Necropolitian template to grant un-ending life and call it a day. Remove all the granted features, make the ceremony cost either 1 level or something like 2-3,000 XP, and call it a day.

Maybe make it require a specific spell...say, cannot be cast on yourself, takes X hours or X days and a group of casters to perform...maybe something like a 5th-7th level spell?

Hrm... looking at the template (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Necropolitan_%283.5e_template%29), the existing, evil, Negative-Energy-Plane-linking ritual requires the subject to lose a level and another 1,000 XP, and if that drains them to 0 XP or less, destroys them utterly. The goal here is, if possible, to give immortality to everybody, not just those who've acquired class levels, so this approach would require even further fiddling and DM approvals.



Immortality from old age doesn't really ever drastically affect a campaign, so I'd let that pass.

An attempt to grant everyone immortality from old age is the sort of thing that does tend to drastically affect a campaign... as can be revealed in any storyline in which various factions go a-hunting for a Fountain of Youth McGuffin. :)

(Who says it's always the villains who are the ones coming up with world-shaking plots? ;) )

Flickerdart
2011-01-01, 01:35 AM
Outsiders are immortal, so handing out templates that turn people into those works. So are Dragons, Constructs and (depending on the DM) Fey.

Psyren
2011-01-01, 07:21 AM
Outsiders are immortal, so handing out templates that turn people into those works. So are Dragons, Constructs and (depending on the DM) Fey.

Actually, it never says anywhere that Outsiders are inherently immortal. Some specific Outsiders like Angels and Devils are, but others like Aasimar, Tieflings, Bariaurs and Neraphim can die of old age.

Dragons aren't immortal either, though they can achieve functional immortality with some optimization; the end of their lifespans is known as The Twilight and is covered in detail in Draconomicon.

hamishspence
2011-01-01, 08:09 AM
Yup- most outsiders with a limited lifespan are Planetouched, Native Outsiders- but not all. The aforementioned neraphim, and other playable outsiders from the Planar Handbook, spring to mind.

Aasimar & Tieflings (along with Genasi) in Races of Faerun all had the same lifespans as humans- but Races of Destiny gave Aasimar and Tieflings slightly longer lifespans.

While Elan had finite lifespans in the first printing of Expanded Psionics Handbook, errata fixed this- so now, they never die of old age.

A few other races are explicitly immortal from 1st level- like the Killoren (fey) from Races of the Wild, or the warforged (living construct) from Eberron Campaign Setting.

Sometimes, one can gain a new type (outsider, or elemental) and still have a "the character dies when their time is up" clause.

umbrapolaris
2011-01-01, 10:06 AM
you have the deathless template (the "good" counterpart of the undead template)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deathless_(3.5e_Template)

in addition, a Lich is not always evil (Baelnorn is a good aligned elven lich), and in a Monster manual, Archlich are good Liches.

hamishspence
2011-01-01, 12:12 PM
That template doesn't actually change the alignment of the base undead.

However, there are official deathless monsters, that aren't evil- in Eberron Campaign Setting, and Book of Exalted Deeds.

Libris Mortis does mention that various undead (especially mummies) have been known to have nonevil alignments.

Curst in Lost Empires of Faerun are Always Chaotic Neutral.
Revenants in City of the Spider Queen, and Monsters of Faerun, are Always Neutral.
Necropolitans don't have to be evil- nor do 20th level dread necromancers (from Heroes of Horror, who gain the undead type, and some, but not all, lich abilities).

Whether or not turning yourself into an undead is an evil act- there are plenty of examples of nonevil undead. Even good gods such as Tyr have been known to turn their own followers into undead- in order to give them a "second chance" to do what they failed to do in life. One of the characters in the novel Pool of Radiance, is an undead ex-paladin of Tyr- and is a good guy.

TheGeckoKing
2011-01-01, 03:07 PM
Incantifier (Dragon Mag 339) makes you immortal as a 1 level dip, but it borks your healing so you can ONLY be healed by spells that don't beat your spell resistance (Another 1st level feature - Min SR 21). You can autoheal with your own spells though, so if Reserve Feat effects count as a spell or spell-like ability........ooooo........
Although, there are problems. You need 6th level spells, Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft ranks (12 each). And non-good. And 120,000gp +4800XP. It's not the best way, but it's a one level dip with full spellcasting so I dunno.

DataPacRat
2011-01-01, 03:14 PM
While Elan had finite lifespans in the first printing of Expanded Psionics Handbook, errata fixed this- so now, they never die of old age.

A few other races are explicitly immortal from 1st level- like the Killoren (fey) from Races of the Wild, or the warforged (living construct) from Eberron Campaign Setting.

So - would it be feasible to turn a random NPC into an Elan or Killoren, permanently, with a simple application of Polymorph Any Object?


And, for the other templates mentioned after that post - ignoring the organizational and logistical problems of arranging to apply the process on a large scale (which is, of course, most of the fun of such a plot), what would the actual method of applying such a template be?

hamishspence
2011-01-01, 04:48 PM
To create a Curst requires you to cast bestow curse on a dying target, followed by create undead, or create greater undead.

So it's a bit difficult to mass-produce Curst. Plus they are always a little mad- and do not rise as controlled by the creator

Creating revenants- normally, they can't be created, but arise spontaneously with the urge to kill whoever killed them, and all those who aided the killer.

However, the minor artifact Claw of the Revenancer, in City of the Spider Queen, allows you to create a revenant, under your control, three times per day. If you order it to seek its killer though, it's automatically freed. They are also immune to all turning and rebuking.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-01, 05:35 PM
If you don't want to be undead but don't mind your physical form changing and have some druids you trust, periodic ritual suicide and Reincarnation will allow you to remain alive forever; it always brings you back as a young adult whatever.

DataPacRat
2011-01-01, 05:53 PM
If you don't want to be undead but don't mind your physical form changing and have some druids you trust, periodic ritual suicide and Reincarnation will allow you to remain alive forever; it always brings you back as a young adult whatever.

Druids aren't even necessary - a wizard can mimic Reincarnation with Limited Wish; Last Breath is even better than Reincarnation, since it doesn't have the level drop. LB's limit is that it has to be cast on a particular round... which can be prepared for automatically with Craft Contingent Spell. Such a CCS takes 10 days to prep, a bit of gold and XP, and a 13th-level wizard - but I haven't yet found an immortality trick that can be accomplished with a lower-level wiz.

Heliomance
2011-01-01, 07:08 PM
Turn them all into Elans. Admittedly, this will wipe their memories and personalities, but you can't make an omelette without blowing up a chicken farm. Or something.

DataPacRat
2011-01-01, 07:23 PM
Turn them all into Elans. Admittedly, this will wipe their memories and personalities, but you can't make an omelette without blowing up a chicken farm. Or something.

Whether nuking poultry is involved or not, erasing all the subjects' memories would pretty much defeat the entire point of the exercise, from the rat-wizard's POV. For this project, "souls" (however they're defined) themselves are entirely optional, as long as the memories and personalities remain intact, continue to think, and are able to keep on interacting with the world to some degree.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-01, 07:41 PM
The second is a cute little chain - using the Craft Contingent Spell feat (from Complete Arcane) to prepare a Limited Wish to imitate the effects of the Last Breath spell (Spell Compendium) which imitates most of the effects of Reincarnate, but without level loss. The Craft feat has a minimum caster level of 11, and since Limited Wish is 7th level, the caster needs to be at least 13th level... and the crafting itself requires the expenditure of 10 days, 664 XP, and 4550 gp of raw materials. Still, for the equivalent of a 1-UP mushroom, that's not too shabby. Let's see... Craft Contingent Spell is done similar to magic items, right? The collaboration rules mean that if you can find a friendly Druid capable of casting it (Leadership?), then you can do it with the base 4th level spell, which will make it much less expensive and much less time-consuming.

Edit: Oh yes, and Craft Contingent Spell requires a caster level of 11 - not the ability to cast 6th level spells. Which means if you find a way to boost your caster level (there's several), you can take the feat much earlier.

DataPacRat
2011-01-01, 10:14 PM
Oh yes, and Craft Contingent Spell requires a caster level of 11 - not the ability to cast 6th level spells. Which means if you find a way to boost your caster level (there's several), you can take the feat much earlier.

An early CCS would be very much useful - is there a list handy of those caster-level boosts?

Jack_Simth
2011-01-01, 10:31 PM
An early CCS would be very much useful - is there a list handy of those caster-level boosts?
The two I know of that are reasonably easily accessible for you:

Orange Prism Ioun Stone (Core): +1 Caster level, 20,000 gp. All day. May or may not be stackable.
Ring of Arcane Might (Magic Item Compendium): +1 Caster level, 20,000 gp. All day. May or may not be stackable.

That'll get the character level down to 9th.

Flickerdart
2011-01-01, 11:47 PM
So - would it be feasible to turn a random NPC into an Elan or Killoren, permanently, with a simple application of Polymorph Any Object?
Spell Clock, set it to cast Polymorph Any Object every round.

Consumptive Field is a 4th level Cleric spell that is capable of doubling your CL. Beads of Karma allow a +4 CL for 10 minutes/day.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-02, 12:01 AM
Spell Clock, set it to cast Polymorph Any Object every round.

Consumptive Field is a 4th level Cleric spell that is capable of doubling your CL. Beads of Karma allow a +4 CL for 10 minutes/day.

Catch: For flavor reasons, the character in question is a Wizard. Now, while you can still contrive to get the two anyway, there's a problem: They're not long duration.

It's one thing to qualify for a feat based on an item that's always active - it's quite another to try to qualify for a feat based on an item or spell that's active for only a small fraction of the day.

Psyren
2011-01-02, 02:20 PM
Can you cast PAO repeatedly? I thought spells couldn't stack with themselves, and even if you got one casting up to Permanent it would still be an active spell (as opposed to Instantaneous, which would no longer be active between castings.)

Jack_Simth
2011-01-02, 02:52 PM
Can you cast PAO repeatedly? I thought spells couldn't stack with themselves, and even if you got one casting up to Permanent it would still be an active spell (as opposed to Instantaneous, which would no longer be active between castings.)
If you're just doing it to be immortal, you don't need it. Same Kingdom, Size, and same-or-lower Int will get you Permanent, no problem. So turning people into, say, Elans of themselves will work, on average.

Heliomance
2011-01-02, 02:53 PM
Seeing as elans are aberrations, the case for same kingdom is debatable.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-02, 03:08 PM
Druids aren't even necessary - a wizard can mimic Reincarnation with Limited Wish; Last Breath is even better than Reincarnation, since it doesn't have the level drop. LB's limit is that it has to be cast on a particular round... which can be prepared for automatically with Craft Contingent Spell. Such a CCS takes 10 days to prep, a bit of gold and XP, and a 13th-level wizard - but I haven't yet found an immortality trick that can be accomplished with a lower-level wiz.
Does Last Breath make you young again or, unlike every spell I know of for raising the dead, work on those who have died of old age?

Jack_Simth
2011-01-02, 03:10 PM
Seeing as elans are aberrations, the case for same kingdom is debatable.More like 'not clearly defined' (part of the reason for 'on average'). But with Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, and Animals all fairly clearly falling in the same Kingdom, at what point do you draw the line for Kingdom? Clearly, simply being different Types doesn't cut it.

An aberration needs to eat, breathe, and sleep, just as do humanoids and animals (vs. Plants, which eat and breathe, but don't sleep). Elans are very specifically made from regular humans. Where do you draw the line, and why?

DataPacRat
2011-01-02, 05:17 PM
Does Last Breath make you young again or, unlike every spell I know of for raising the dead, work on those who have died of old age?

From Spell Compendium's desc: "This spell functions like reincarnate (PH 270)". From PH's desc: "The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age". This latter item leads to various suggestions on how aging would-be-immortals using this method need to arrange for their deaths from causes other than directly from old age. With a contingent spell in place, as long as said immortalist avoids dispels and anti-magic spells, all they need is to make sure they collect enough gp and xp, and find a spare few days for the crafting, at least once per incarnation, and make sure to suicide before they have a heart attack.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-02, 05:29 PM
From Spell Compendium's desc: "This spell functions like reincarnate (PH 270)". From PH's desc: "The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age". This latter item leads to various suggestions on how aging would-be-immortals using this method need to arrange for their deaths from causes other than directly from old age. With a contingent spell in place, as long as said immortalist avoids dispels and anti-magic spells, all they need is to make sure they collect enough gp and xp, and find a spare few days for the crafting, at least once per incarnation, and make sure to suicide before they have a heart attack.
Ok then. Thanks, this plan works then. Still, I admit a certain fondness for a cabal of 'immortal' druids who have been around for thousands of years. It would be a neat way to integrate Rules and Story at least.

DataPacRat
2011-01-02, 06:01 PM
Ok then. Thanks, this plan works then. Still, I admit a certain fondness for a cabal of 'immortal' druids who have been around for thousands of years. It would be a neat way to integrate Rules and Story at least.

There's no reason there isn't such a cabal of druids - or one of mages, or one of any other bunch of people who've found a way to avoid death. Our plucky little hero's goal... is simply to bring the benefits of such immortality to everyone, not just a small little cabal. (Though he himself might put together a similar cabal while he's arranging for the resources to go world-wide... I'm going to have to look into the DMG2's rules on putting together a university to use as a base...)

And yes, I'm well aware of all the massive problems and complications that stand in the way of reaching his goal, and the even more massive problems and complications that will result should he achieve it - at the very least, if people are still able to have children, then it would be a massively good idea to develop spelljamming (if the local prime material is infinite) and/or planewalking (to any given infinite planes) on a large scale.

After all, looked at through a certain sort of objective logic, isn't "Nobody has to die anymore" just about the ideal Neutral Good goal to strive for?

WarKitty
2011-01-02, 07:00 PM
There's also the rituals in the DMG II that let you change your type. Optional rules, but still.

Flickerdart
2011-01-02, 08:17 PM
Catch: For flavor reasons, the character in question is a Wizard. Now, while you can still contrive to get the two anyway, there's a problem: They're not long duration.

It's one thing to qualify for a feat based on an item that's always active - it's quite another to try to qualify for a feat based on an item or spell that's active for only a small fraction of the day.
DMM: Persist takes care of Consumptive Field. The Wizard could take Ur Priest and Mystic Theurge levels to take care of this.

DataPacRat
2011-01-02, 08:32 PM
DMM: Persist takes care of Consumptive Field. The Wizard could take Ur Priest and Mystic Theurge levels to take care of this.

Finally dug up a copy of Libris Mortis to take a look at Consumptive Field, where I learned that with it, caster level goes up by 1 "per death caused by this spell". While the level increase is of course handy, the fact that it kills people seems to go against the overall goal being tried for, of giving immortality to everyone.


From some source material I'm using as partial inspiration for this character:



"I know why you are truly asking that question. No, I do not read your mind, I do not have to, your hesitation gives you away! You seek the secret of the Dark Lord's immortality in order to use it for yourself!"

"Wrong! I want the secret of the Dark Lord's immortality in order to use it for everyone!"

...

"... But this much I know, and this much I will tell you: his immortality was born of a ritual terrible and Dark, blacker than pitchest black! And it was Myrtle, poor sweet Myrtle, who died for it; his immortality took sacrifice, it took murder -"

"Well obviously I'm not going to popularize a method of immortality that requires killing people! That would defeat the entire point!"

Psyren
2011-01-02, 08:52 PM
An aberration needs to eat, breathe, and sleep, just as do humanoids and animals (vs. Plants, which eat and breathe, but don't sleep). Elans are very specifically made from regular humans. Where do you draw the line, and why?

It's easier to justify in Pathfinder - Elans are still immortal, but are Humanoids (aberrant) instead of true Aberrations.

Heliomance
2011-01-02, 09:05 PM
Finally dug up a copy of Libris Mortis to take a look at Consumptive Field, where I learned that with it, caster level goes up by 1 "per death caused by this spell".

The traditional method is to catch a large number of rats/buy a large number of chickens. The deaths don't need to be of sentient creatures.

DataPacRat
2011-01-02, 11:56 PM
The traditional method is to catch a large number of rats/buy a large number of chickens. The deaths don't need to be of sentient creatures.

Hrm. I guess I just assumed that the Evil modifier meant that it would be a lot harder to apply the spell in a way that was arguably non-evil.

So... the build we're trying to improve upon is a Wizard who uses an orange Ioun stone and a Ring of Arcane Might in order to improve caster level by 2 on a long-term basis, thus allowing said wizard to fulfill the prerequisite for Craft Contingent Spell by level 9.

To get Consumptive Field to work long-term, and thus also be reasonably suitable as part of that prerequisite, we're now positing a PC with the feats Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), which, according to the errata I've found, requires Persistent Spell, which requires Extend Spell; and we also need said PC to have at least one turn attempt/day, to power DMM. And, of course, said PC needs to be able to cast Consumptive Field, lvl 4, daily.

Ur-Priest has been suggested as a PrC - unfortunately, Ur-Priests need to be evil, while the PC in question is a candidate for BoED sainthood, which would seem to rule that PrC out.

Mystic Theurge was also suggested. To get that, the PC needs to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells, that is reaching 3rd level as a wizard; and be able to cast 2nd level divine spells, in other words already have taken 3 levels as cleric. That's six levels right there - in order to beat the 9th-level single-class wizard, he needs to take no more than two more levels. Unfortunately, with Wiz3 / Clr 3 / MTh 2, he only has a caster level of 5 as either wizard or cleric; being generous and applying the adders to caster-level before the Consumptive Field multiplier, Ioun Stone and Ring of Arcane Might bring caster level up to 7, while CF raises it to "a maximum of 1/2 your original caster level", or adding another 3.5, which means the maximum level is 10.5... lower than the level 11 minimum for Craft Contingent Spell. In other words, it /almost/ works. :)

Heliomance
2011-01-03, 05:40 AM
You need seven turn attempts to power DMM: Persist.

FelixG
2011-01-03, 06:08 AM
just give people golem graft

Wis drain them first and they fail their saves and gain the construct type, insta immortality!

Turn yourself into a good lich, template from Libris Mortis, then turn the others into mummys

Alternatively if you want to be on the cheap: get a psion with true mind swap to exchange their minds with say, a chicken. Then you kill the now chicken minded body and raise it as a skeleton. You cast awaken undead on it to give it a mind, then you have the psion mindswap them back into the newly risen skele

olentu
2011-01-03, 06:13 AM
If going with contingent reincarnations you may need something to lower the time since if it takes more than zero to craft the spell one is only able to apply it to a limited number of people before deaths on the average catch up to applications. Either that or one will need probably more than one crafter to catch a whole world of people.

On the other hand a set of traps, spell clocks, or something of the sort might be a better investment as I believe has already been noted since once made no reapplication is necessary.

FelixG
2011-01-03, 06:21 AM
One option would be some items that create clones.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm

Now normally the natural life limit would be an issue BUT... what you do, is when the people are feeling old, run down ect ect they can choose to end their own life, just not in a natural way, that way their souls go to the new body, just need some items of gentle repose
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentlerepose.htm
to stack the corpses on, a HUGE plate of always on gentle repose could do it

olentu
2011-01-03, 07:11 AM
One option would be some items that create clones.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm

Now normally the natural life limit would be an issue BUT... what you do, is when the people are feeling old, run down ect ect they can choose to end their own life, just not in a natural way, that way their souls go to the new body, just need some items of gentle repose
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentlerepose.htm
to stack the corpses on, a HUGE plate of always on gentle repose could do it

Unfortunately clone has that whole loose a level or 2 con thing going for it as I recall.

FelixG
2011-01-03, 09:53 AM
Unfortunately clone has that whole loose a level or 2 con thing going for it as I recall.

True, but it is at least a temporary immortality plan until each person can save up to have themselves mummified or some such

DataPacRat
2011-01-03, 03:57 PM
Either that or one will need probably more than one crafter to catch a whole world of people.

This is the general plan - while the rat-wizard figures out at least one method of effective immortality, he'll also be putting together a cabal of whatever other like-minded folk he can gather as the cadre for a larger group to apply that method (and any others that are figured out) as widely as possible.