Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

[Elfin]

Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction]

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To blunder twice is not allowed in war.
- Latin proverb


Why Play a Swordsage?

Why Use Tome of Battle?

There are endless cycles of debate about Tome of Battle: why it sucks, why it’s great, why the fluff is awful, whether it’s balanced, etcetera. Naturally, opinions vary widely, but I’ve found that Tome of Battle greatly enriches the playing experience at my table, mainly for two reasons:

- It makes melee fun to play. Some people enjoy endlessly repeating their full attack routine; many want something more. And Tome of Battle provides you with lots more options and tactics, which include the ability to make decisions more meaningful than how much you’ll Power Attack for this turn.

- It levels the playing field. Around here it’s an oft-recited saying that ‘fighters scale linearly, wizards scale quadratically’. Tome of Battle by no means closes that gap, but it unquestionably narrows it.

This handbook will use the following system for ratings:

Red - Awful. Never, ever take these.
Purple - Meh. These can be situationally useful, but aren’t usually worth it.
Black - OK. Not the best, but not the worst, either.
Blue - Good. An excellent option, and worthwhile.
Cyan - Great. Take these. Seriously.
Gold - Fantastic. These are amazing options, defining aspects of a build or even the entire class.


Don't expect this to be finished soon; updates will be infrequent while my warblade handbook is still being built upon. Nonetheless, I'd very much like comments, criticism, and most of all, additions.

[Elfin]

Roles: Why You Walk the Way

Mobility – You’re a very mobile combatant, and you can often best utilize your talents by skirmishing and darting around the battlefield.

Secondary Melee – As a swordsage, you’re a prime choice for a melee support role. You can aid more hulk-like characters with a variety of status effects, debuffs, and plain old damage.

Burst Damage – Specializing in Desert Wind can give you a formidable arsenal of area attacks. Still, this is usually best left to the party caster.

Primary Melee – If you’re forced to, you can do a fine job out on the front lines. But a d8 hit die and medium BAB mean you’re no substitute for a barbarian or warblade.

Debuffs – These shouldn’t become too much of a focus, but you have quite an array of status effects and ability damage at your disposal. It’s usually wise to pick up at least a couple of these maneuvers.

Tank – You’re simply not a tank, with a low hit die, light armor proficiency, and class features that reward mobility.


Class Features: How You Walk the Way


Fundamentals:


D8 hit die - I'll be honest: this isn't terribly fantastic, as hit points are valuable. But it should usually be enough for your needs, seeing as you aren't a front-line combatant.
Medium BAB - Not great, but not at all a problem. Because many strikes allow only one attack, losing that fourth shouldn't be more than a minor annoyance.
Good Reflex and Will saves - Quite awesome. You'll have strong defenses against the warrior's eternal weakness, Will save-or-lose spells, and likely won't need to give a thought to Reflex saves.
Bad Fortitude save - On the flip side, though, you're lack one of the melee combatant's prototypical strengths, Fortitude. This can be a bit of a hurdle to come, as there are a number of nasty spells with a Fortitude save - consider taking the Diamond Mind counter Mind Over Body. I wouldn't worry too much, though.
6 Skill Points/level - Excellent. Way more than most warriors get, and it should be plenty to cover your needs.

Class Features:

Maneuvers - Without maneuvers, you're simply not a swordsage.

Stances - Stances are, without a doubt, one of your defining abilities.

Quick to Act - Eventually becomes better than free Improved Initiative. Initiative, especially at high levels, is extremely important: can't say no to a bonus.

Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus) - Meh. A nice boost at low levels, but not great.

AC Bonus - A passive ability that helps make up for your lack of heavy armor, is hard to say no to. Sure, keying it off Wisdom makes you a bit MAD, but it's nothing too essential.

Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike) - You'll be making a strike nearly every round, so this is a great bonus. Choose strike-heavy disciplines like Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw.

Sense Magic - At-will, 10-minute identify? The party caster probably has this taken care of already, but still...free stuff.

Discipline Focus (Defensive Stance) - Basically three bonus feats. Three crappy bonus feats, yeah, but are you going to turn it down?

Evasion - Nice; when paired with your high Reflex saves, it means you have little to fear from most area of effect attacks.

Improved Evasion - Not that good. By now, if you fail a Reflex save, something has gone wrong.

Dual Boost - Very awesome. Perhaps not as spectacular as Stance Mastery, due to the 3/day limit, but nonetheless extremely potent when used correctly.

Skills: The Other Way

Class Skills:

Balance - Be sure to take 5 ranks in it so that you're immune to grease spells and other effects that would otherwise screw you - but beyond that, much less appealing.
Climb - Even with your large number of skill points, you can't afford to waste any on Climb.
Concentration - Extremely important if you're taking Diamond Mind maneuvers (and why wouldn't you be?). Lots of them - most famously, the save-replacing and and Insightful Strike lines - key off Concentration checks.
Craft - If you have your heart set on being a master smith or forging warheart weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580531), well, indulge yourself. Otherwise, give it a miss.
Heal -
Hide -
Intimidate -
Jump -
Knowledge (History) -
Knowledge (Local) -
Knowledge (Nature) -
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) -
Listen -
Martial Lore -
Move Silently -
Profession -
Ride -
Sense Motive -
Swim -
Tumble -

[Elfin]

Reserved for abilities, races, and combat styles.

[Elfin]

Maneuvers: The Sublime Way
Thanks to Draz74

Level One

You have a lot of maneuvers to start out with, so go crazy. Burning Blade, Distracting Ember, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Mighty Throw are the standouts.

Desert Wind:

Burning Blade - Extra damage that scales with level, and multiplies if you make multiple attacks. Yes please. Obviously you'll want to upgrade to higher-level versions when you can, and switch tactics if you're fighting fire-resistant foes.

Distracting Ember - As a swift action, tell an opponent, "You're flanked." If you're the only melee combatant in the party, you need this. Otherwise, it's still not bad, and you can get creative with different ways to take advantage of it.

Wind Stride - 10 feet speed boost for a swift action isn't very impressive. Sudden Leap is usually a better way to do this, if you can get it. Mostly I would just use this maneuver as a prerequisite for higher-level Desert Wind stuff on a Swordsage who eschews magical maneuvers.

Blistering Flourish - Dazzled is the weakest status condition in the game. Don't bother.

Diamond Mind:

Moment of Perfect Mind - Your Will save is already pretty good. On the other hand, you have lots of readied maneuvers, and your Concentration check is probably still better.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade - decent low-level bonus damage, and the "flat-footed" aspect just gets better at higher levels as you add in combos. Hard to go wrong.

Setting Sun:

Counter Charge - It's situational and defensive, and carries a risk. But if you do happen to get charged when you have this readied, it can be pretty fun to pull out.

Mighty Throw - For one turn, you're a tripper build, even if you have low strength. You don't get to do any damage (except, arguably, if you also have Improved Trip), but you do get to throw people 10 feet. This might be cyan colored if it did something about size penalties to trip attempts.

Shadow Hand:

Clinging Shadow Strike - Miss chances are good, but a 20% miss chance that allows a save is a pretty sad status condition. Still, at low levels it's hard to argue with anything that gives +1d6 damage and a chance of something else.

Shadow Blade Technique - Extra damage if you roll well both times, extra accuracy if you roll poorly the first time but roll well the second time. I'll let you in on a secret: the real power of this maneuver is to help a Swordsage with Blood in the Water (and a kukri or a scimitar) score a critical threat more easily.

Stone Dragon:

Charging Minotaur - This deals massive damage at low levels (if you have a decent Strength) and remains the poor man's Improved Bull Rush at all levels. I'm only making it black, though, because many Swordsages have poor Strength, and in any case they have Mighty Throw as an alternative option for moving opponents around.

Stone Bones - Great defensive maneuver at very low levels, especially since Swordsages are the most fragile initiator class. But loses its kick very quickly.

Tiger Claw:

Sudden Leap - This isn't as great for Swordsages as it is for Warblades. Their Jump scores tend to be a little lower, they have more alternative ways to move and make a full attack, and they're less dependent on making full attacks in general. Most of all, they have a harder time recovering this maneuver once they've used it. Still, if you have max ranks in Jump, it's hardly a bad option, especially for a TWF-er.

Wolf Fang Strike - For a TWF-er, this lets you move and still use both weapons at low levels. For a non-TWF-er, at least it lets you throw in an unarmed strike (or a swing with a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes) occasionally; and in any case, at least it's a gateway maneuver to the excellent Tiger Claw discipline.

Level Two

A really nice level for you. The best maneuvers are Flashing Sun, Baffling Defense, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, and Mountain Hammer; you really can't go wrong with any of them.

Desert Wind:

Burning Brand - Extra reach for a turn is golden if you're trying to close to melee with a Large monster who can Attack of Opportunity you if you approach too quickly. Switching your attacks to Fire damage is situationally useful too (including against anything with DR!).

Fire Riposte - This is pretty impressive damage at the level you get it, and as an immediate action no less! And at low levels, most of your opponents will be making melee attacks. The damage doesn't scale well to higher levels, though.

Flashing Sun - For one round, you have Flurry of Blows like a monk, only you can do it with any weapon you feel like! Also, it's another [Ex] Desert Wind maneuver.

Hatchling's Flame - This is a poor amount of damage even compared to a blaster wizard at this level. The only reason it's not red is because at this low level, spellcasters can still run out of spells, while you can keep using this all day. Also, fire resistance isn't too common yet. (And at least it's four times as big an area as the Dragonfire Adept's at-will attack with the same effect.) This could be an OK choice if you face lots of weak critters.

Diamond Mind:

Action Before Thought - Your Reflex save is already pretty good, and failing a Reflex save tends to be slightly less devastating than failing the other saves. Still, this is a good boost to your ability to avoid e.g. breath weapons, grease spells, or traps.

Emerald Razor - You're less likely than the Warblade to put this in a devastating combo with Power Attack. Still, it's hard to argue with making a touch attack when you just need to hit something.

Setting Sun:

Baffling Defense - One of my very favorite maneuvers. With a little investment in your Sense Motive skill (useful anyway), you can basically say "no" to an attack, including a ray thrown at you by a spellcaster. Besides, the image it evokes - parrying or dodging that's so effortless as to express boredom - is hilarious.

Clever Positioning - It's a decent effect. Make an attack, switch places (no matter how large the foe) if they fail a Reflex save (which tends to be a poor save). It's just relatively hard to engineer situations where switching places is going to have that much of an impact on the battle. But if you're a tactical genius who can put it to good use, more power to you.

Shadow Hand:

Cloak of Deception - Spellcasters at this level would kill to have all-day access to Swift Invisibility. And wait, it's greater invisibility? And on a class that can also gain Sneak Attack and similar effects? And you can use it as a getaway card, too, so you can dive for cover and start using your Hide skill? Yeah, this is very hard to pass up.

Drain Vitality - Meh. Constitution damage is nice, but a Fortitude save negates it completely. I'd rather hold out to get the Stone Dragon version in a couple levels.

Shadow Jaunt - This is pretty underwhelming in combat, requiring a standard action to move around the battlefield. But for out-of-combat utility, it's solid gold. There are way too many cool things you can do with infinite short-range teleports.

Stone Dragon:

Mountain Hammer - This is fantastic for anyone. Good damage (at the level you get it), useful DR-avoidance, fantastic out-of-combat object-breaking utility, no prerequisites. If anything, it's even better for Swordsages, since they get plenty of maneuvers known and can use some for situational utility, and also since they tend to have lower Strength than other initiators.

Stone Vise - Unimpressive. Mediocre damage boost, allows a save, and the effect isn't even useful if you're standing toe-to-toe with a monster. But I'll give it a Purple, just because Swordsages are skirmishing types who sometimes want to hit a monster, then run away from it.

Tiger Claw:

Claw at the Moon - The damage is okay, but not great, the crit confirmation boost is usually not important, and the Jump check is probably easy but not automatic at these levels. I'd probably only use this as a prerequisite to get into Tiger Claw, especially when multiclassing to Swordsage from another class.

Rabid Wolf Strike - It's reckless. I can't deny that. But that's some sweet damage you're dealing out with a single attack.

Level Three


Desert Wind:

Zephyr Dance - It's a great mental image, to be sure. And another nonmagical Desert Wind option. Whether the mechanics play out largely depends on your group's die-rolling playstyle -- if an attack barely hits you, will you know that using Zephyr Dance will undo the hit? If so, this is good. If not, skip it.

Death Mark - So situational! Obviously if you're fighting a Hill Giant surrounded by goblin mooks, or a Juvenile Dragon surrounded by Kobold worshipers, this is exactly what the doctor ordered. Otherwise, pretty weak, though at least you get to do melee damage, unlike many maneuvers involving an area of effect of fire damage.

Fan the Flames - At the level you get it, this is decent damage. It's almost Psion-level blasting. But it becomes less impressive very, very quickly.

Diamond Mind:

Mind over Body - Now we're talking! This is the save you need to protect, and this is a great way to protect it. Unlike a Warblade, you've got plenty of Maneuvers Readied to spend on defensive things.

Insightful Strike - This is a great way to deal damage. Suddenly your little short sword does 1d20 damage instead of 1d6? ... yes please.

Setting Sun:

Devastating Throw - A decent tripping trick, it goes a little further than Mighty Throw and deals damage on the side. Still has Mighty Throw's same issues with size, and also has an odd movement requirement; might only be worth it for a dedicated tripper.

Feigned Opening - Why were you provoking Attacks of Opportunity again? You have Tumble as a class skill. Still, this is a fun little mindgame to play on your DM when you've got the Big Boss surrounded by your party on all sides.

Shadow Hand:

Shadow Garrote - Mediocre damage for this level, an easy save for many monsters to make, and a mediocre rider effect if they fail the save. Still, neither the damage nor the rider effect is completely pathetic, and at least the fluff implies you can do this from a hiding spot without the target knowing where it's coming from (unlike Fan the Flames). Plus, bonus points for being Darth Vader.

Strength Draining Strike - The good news is, it does 2 Strength damage even on a successful save. The bad news is, even 4 Strength damage isn't as devastating as 2 Constitution damage.

Stone Dragon:

Bonecrusher - The damage is mediocre, the rider effect allows a Fortitude save (and if your Strength is not great, that makes Stone Dragon saves easier to pass), the rider effect isn't great even for a crit-fishing build, and keeping track of the effect is annoying for the DM. You can do better than this.

Stone Dragon's Fury - It's not much better than Mountain Hammer, and it's way more situational. And if you're a dedicated Sundering build, I can't imagine why you're a Swordsage.

Tiger Claw:

Flesh Ripper - Even a crit-fishing build is never sure enough that it's going to score a critical hit to make this maneuver worthwhile. Especially since the effect isn't amazing even if it works.

Soaring Raptor Strike - Decent damage for this level, and the attack bonus is always welcome. Only works on things bigger than you, but that's not so rare, especially given the popularity of Small races for Swordsages.

Level Four

Desert Wind:

Searing Blade - Fire resistance is starting to become more of a concern, but on a build that gets a lot of attacks (TWF? Flashing Sun?) this is still a very impressive amount of bonus damage.

Firesnake - IIRC, it has an unfortunate history of being debated a lot due to poor writing. Besides, it's not great damage, and has the usual "dragon's breath" problem of "Reflex half."

Searing Charge - The damage isn't amazing unless you combine it with Pounce or similar madness, but the utility of the flight can be pretty big if you're creative with it. And at least it lets you make an attack, too (unlike Shadow Jaunt).

Diamond Mind:

Bounding Assault - Gives you a bit of extra mobility and +2 to hit, but no good side effects like you could get from other strikes. Still not bad. If you're a dedicated charging build, of course, with goodies like Pounce, this maneuver becomes amazing.

Mind Strike - a bit of Wisdom damage isn't an amazing effect, unless you're fighting a divine caster. Still, I suppose your party casters can find a way to take advantage of lowered Will saves ... if the initial Will save to prevent the damage fails. Again, a Swordsage who neglects Strength will have a very low save DC here.

Ruby Nightmare Blade - Double damage is hard to argue with.

Setting Sun:

Comet Throw - Like Devastating Throw, but no movement requirement and twice the damage. That's an upgrade in my book, even if it's a higher-level maneuver.

Strike of the Broken Shield - Flat-footed isn't terribly impressive at this point. It doesn't enable your own Sneak Attack, and if there is another sneak attacker in your party, there are better ways to help them out (like, just flanking). And a save negates it. And the duration is too short to easily set up for e.g. Hand of Death.

Shadow Hand:

Hand of Death - It allows a Fortitude save, but at least the DC is based on your Wisdom score. It doesn't let you attack, but at least it's a touch attack. It only works on flat-footed targets, but at least you have several ways of accomplishing such a status effect (Shadow Garrote?). At the end of the day, it's a save-or-lose effect on a melee character. Cool.

Obscuring Shadow Veil - Clinging Shadow Strike's big brother. The damage is ok but not great. The rider effect is pretty good against a melee monster but allows a save. If there weren't a save, this maneuver would be awesome but still not broken.

Stone Dragon:

Boulder Roll - Overrunning is terrible. This maneuver doesn't do enough to change that.

Bonesplitting Strike - Quick, clean, simple, add 2 CON damage. No save. Nifty.

Overwhelming Mountain Strike - This is pretty similar to Stone Vise, which was lower level and already pretty bad, but at least this one has a higher save DC and adds a pinch of bonus damage.

Tiger Claw:

Fountain of Blood - Flavorful, but there are probably easier ways to hit your opponents with fear effects if that's what you want to do.

Death from Above - This is already great for Warblades, with a decent amount of bonus damage, a bit of free combat maneuverability, and no annoying conditions (the target doesn't need to be bigger than you, and the DC 20 check is a cinch). But for a Swordsage, this is even better, since there are ways (like Sneak Attack) to take advantage of the flat-footed aspect of the strike.

Level Five

Desert Wind:

Leaping Flame - Teleport 100' as an immediate action. Yeah. Only works against someone who just attacked you, but in combat, that's usually what you want anyway, and can be very satisfying.

Dragon's Flame - Sorry, my patience with these mediocre blasting maneuvers has run out.

Lingering Inferno - Not enough damage. Thoroughly unimpressive compared to other things you can do.

Diamond Mind:

Rapid Counter - A minor, situational way to break the action economy. Especially nice with Stance of Alacrity. More important for swordsages than for warblades, since they can better afford to ready situational maneuvers, and since they're less likely to have Combat Reflexes. This is also a nice gateway maneuver into Diamond Mind for a swordsage that doesn't have ranks in Concentration. (Are there any swordsages without Concentration? :smallconfused:)

Disrupting Blow - The ability to daze an opponent with a melee attack is great. Almost great enough to make up for how this maneuver doesn't do any bonus damage and will probably have a pretty low save DC.

Setting Sun:

Mirrored Pursuit - What mage slayers have always dreamed of. Moving as an immediate action is great, especially if you focus on Counters a lot (Stance of Alacrity?).

Stalking Shadow - Cute, but lives in the shadow (pun intended) of Mirrored Pursuit.

Soaring Throw - I wouldn't get this and Comet Throw, they're too similar. But if you missed Comet Throw, you can get a little extra damage and distance on your tripping with this.

Shadow Hand:

Shadow Stride - Now usable in combat, in the same turn as a strike! Still amazing out of combat. Can be combined with Shadow Jaunt for double the bamf-ing.

Bloodletting Strike - Like Bonesplitting Strike, but since it's a level higher, it at least has the possibility of doing 2 more Con damage if the target happens to fail the save. Nice.

Stone Dragon:

Elder Mountain Hammer - If you happen to get the chance to upgrade Mountain Hammer to this, great. There's no reason not to, and it's a good strong strike. Otherwise, this isn't really all that important, since Mountain Hammer has become mostly out-of-combat utility at this point, and there are lots of other great strikes.

Mountain Avalanche - Lots of fun, but not terribly powerful. If you happen to be the rare high-Strength sort of Swordsage, upgrade this to black.

Tiger Claw:

Dancing Mongoose - Extra attacks with no downside. Even for a non-TWF-er, I think the lack of a full-attack requirement keeps this in "cyan" range. For a TWF-er, I might even upgrade this to gold.

Pouncing Charge - A huge blessing to a melee character. Of course, if you've already got Pounce from another source, don't bother.

Level Six

Desert Wind:

Desert Tempest - The grandaddy of nonmagical Desert Wind maneuvers, I would take it just for the awesome dervish flavor. I have to admit it's pretty situational power-wise, though. It's only really great if you're facing a huge number of opponents.

Ring of Fire - Probably not as good as the Cleric just dropping a Flame Strike. At least it's shapeable, which could prevent friendly fire. But make sure you don't fall into it, or the flames will leap higher - and make no mistake, they'll burn, burn, burn.

Diamond Mind:

Moment of Alacrity - With a Dexterity focus and the Quick to Act feature, you're unlikely to have a low initiative score without Delaying (and a low initiative score is the only time this maneuver matters). And since you aren't a Stormguard Warrior, and have fewer auto-stun effects than the Warblade, it's not as valuable for you to have the ability to go twice in a row. I'm sure there are clever combos a Swordsage can think up with this boost, but they're not exactly obvious or crucial.

Greater Insightful Strike - Great damage. Like, you should be forcing saves vs. death from massive damage by using this. Which is pretty great at Level 11-12.

Setting Sun:

Scorpion Parry - Like Manticore Parry, but at a lower level and with fewer restrictions. Unfortunately, the Medium BAB of a Swordsage keeps it from being as awesome as it could have been. Still pretty cool, especially if an NPC attacks you with a (high-damage) full attack and its lower iteratives are a low attack bonus.

Ballista Throw - Finally, a trip attack that does something really different -- area-of-effect damage, no save. Tell your least favorite monster to "go away!" and hurt his buddies at the same time.

Shadow Hand:

Ghost Blade - Am I missing something? Or is this inferior to Sapphire Nightmare Blade from 10 levels ago?

Shadow Noose - Hello again, Vader. Cute follow-up to its little brother, Shadow Garrote. It's mediocre damage and a decent save-or-suck effect; worth using if your opponent doesn't know where it's coming from.

Stalker in the Night - Awesome name. I want to take it just so I can announce to my DM that I'm using it. Unfortunately, it's not that great, at least in a party context, since it uses your whole turn just to do one attack and stay hidden. (For an annoying NPC, it's much better.)

Stone Dragon:

Crushing Vise - I wouldn't take this as a Warblade, but as a skirmishing Swordsage? Well, remember how I gave those other Stone Dragon manuevers Purple status because of their hit-and-run potential? This is like those, with no save. Awesome for a cowardly Swordsage who wants to get far away from his nastier opponents.

Iron Bones - Even as a more fragile melee character, you probably have better ways to get temporary Hit Points or Damage Reduction than this.

Irresistible Mountain Strike - My goodness, who named these things? A maneuver with a save should not be named "irresistible." Switch this with Crushing Vise, please! In the meantime ... it's a very powerful rider effect if the target happens to fail the save, and in any case at least there's a little bit of nominal bonus damage.

Tiger Claw:

Rabid Bear Strike - Now that's a respectable amount of bonus damage, especially considering the attack bonus too. The AC "recklessness penalty" isn't as significant as it was at low levels, either.

Wolf Climbs the Mountain - The damage isn't great, but this is kind of nice for a Small (or smaller) Swordsage who's too feat-starved to afford Confound the Big Folk. Similar effect, much easier to get. I would upgrade this to blue if it was a standard action instead of a full-round action.

Level Seven

Desert Wind:

Inferno Blade - Fire Resistance is becoming a bigger and bigger concern at higher levels, but 23+ extra damage on every attack of a full attack is still nothing to sneeze at.

Salamander Charge - It's awesome, there's no doubt about that. Charging and literally leaving a wall of fire in your wake? Sweet. And the mere concept of a melee character shaping the battlefield is pretty novel, and the ability to charge with less restrictions is nifty. But I just don't think the wall of fire does enough damage to make this much better than Bounding Assault, which came six levels earlier.

Diamond Mind:

Quicksilver Motion - It looks like action economy-breaking awesomeness at first glance, but there are actually a number of items (not to mention the Hustle power) that can give you a move action (or at least let you move) as a swift action. And they're pretty affordable by this level. If you're playing in a low-item game, this maneuver could be upgraded.

Avalanche of Blades - Without any special combos, this isn't really any better than a normal full attack, especially with a Swordsage's accuracy difficulties. Of course it gets a lot better if you combo it with Wraithstrike or Stormguard Warrior or something.

Setting Sun:

Hydra Slaying Strike - Ironically, this is technically worthless against hydras. On the other hand, it's pretty much incredible against any other melee monster.

Shadow Hand:

Shadow Blink - Every character (except maybe Wizards who already have Abrupt Jaunt) wants this. If only they had initiator level 13, they would use a feat to get it. (How the heck does it not have any prerequisites? Or a [Su] tag?)

Death in the Dark - Almost as cool-sounding as "Stalker in the Night," and it does pretty decent damage at the level you get it. Too bad it offers a save.

Stone Dragon:

Ancient Mountain Hammer - See Elder Mountain Hammer. Again, nice but not crucial.

Colossus Strike - As a Swordsage, you're much better off using the Setting Sun throws.

Tiger Claw:

Hamstring Attack - Unimpressive effect, and allows a save (Strength-based, no less).

Swooping Dragon Strike - If you've focused on your Jump check, this is the maneuver where it pays off.

Level Eight

Desert Wind:

Wyrm's Flame - No. Just no.

Diamond Mind:

Diamond Defense - Now protect all of your Saves with one Readied Maneuver, or protect your Fortitude save twice.

Diamond Nightmare Blade - Quadruple damage. I don't know what else to say.

Setting Sun:

Fool's Strike - Another of my very favorite maneuvers in the book, this would be a better color if it weren't paired with the Swordsage's Medium BAB. Still, a great choice, especially against foes who have lower attack bonuses on their iterative attacks.

Shadow Hand:

One with Shadow - Everything should be able to handle incorporeality by this level, but maybe not if they're caught by surprise. It's a good defensive move. Also, use it to walk through walls, or to make Greater Insightful Strikes as touch attacks.

Enervating Shadow Strike - Negative levels are fun, and never go out of style. But the wizard could do this 8 levels ago, and with no save.

Stone Dragon:

Adamantine Bones - Too little, too late. I'd rather use Hydra Slaying Strike if I'm about to take a full attack.

Earthstrike Quake - I'm not impressed. If you're set on knocking a bunch of enemies prone, hold out for Tornado Throw.

Tiger Claw:

Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip - A very significant amount of damage for a TWF-er to add to his full attack. Of course, skip it if you're not TWF-ing.

Raging Mongoose - Four extra attacks on a full attack, or on any strike (Wolf Fang Strike? Time Stands Still?) that allows using both weapons? Halelujah. Even for a non-TWF-er I'd say this is awesome.

Level Nine

Desert Wind:

Inferno Blast - Eh, I'm sure the political power of being able to burn down an army, neighborhood, or village every 12 seconds must be immense. But against CR-appropriate monsters? This won't do much.

Diamond Mind:

Time Stands Still - Lots of attacks are the name of the game for a swordsage, especially if you use two weapons and/or get Sneak Attack. Time Stands Still increases your output like nothing else.

Setting Sun:

Tornado Throw - Nothing says "epic monk is pwning you" like a good Tonado Throw, especially if the same opponent gets thrown over and over again (in one turn). (Hmm, use this maneuver in confined spaces?). On the other hand, the damage isn't really so impressive, and often the kinds of monsters you face at this level are too big to trip easily, or too big to trip at all, and don't come in the kinds of numbers that make this maneuver really impressive.

Shadow Hand:

Five-Shadow-Strike-of-Ridiculous-Name - Too random for my taste, but I've got to admit, regardless of the random outcome (or even whether the save is successful), this will do some nasty things.

Stone Dragon:

Mountain Tombstone Strike - Nice effect, no save, infamously has no prerequisites. Looks better on a swordsage, since it's not sitting next to the equally-powerful Strike of Perfect Clarity.

Tiger Claw:

Feral Death Blow - Too many things can go wrong here, even though the Jump check should be easy. Full-round action. Target has to be vulnerable to crits. Allows a (Strength-based DC) save. Still, it is a save-twice-or-die effect (with massive damage coming into play), and there's something to be said for that.

[Elfin]

Stances: The Way to Walk

[Elfin]

Feats, feats, and more feats.

[Elfin]

Multiclassing.

[Elfin]

Equipment, sample builds, and useful links. That'll be all.

[icefractal]

Since I'm currently playing a Swordsage, here's some of the manuevers and stances I've been using recently, roughly from most to least used:

Stances:Assassin's Stance - The most commonly used. Extra damage is always nice, and it opens up the possibility of SA-based feats.
Hearing the Air - A good stance to be in outside of combat, to prevent ambushes.
Dance of the Spider - Situational, but very useful when it applies.
Child of Shadow - Decent default when none of the others apply.

Manuevers (NOTE: This selection is based on often being in Assassin's Stance):Shadow Stride - The best one in here. Not only is it quite useful in combat, but it kicks ass for infiltration/exploration. Bamf through keyholes, across rooftops and chasms, and do so as much as you like.
Death from Above - With SA, pretty nice. Not sure if it be worth it without.
Searing Blade - Very useful to benefit from Haste.
Elder Mountain Hammer - Not as flashy, but effective. And you can break locks with it.
Death Mark - Good for swarms and mobs of weak foes, but you need to be a bit careful positioning it.
Zephyr Dance - Not that exciting, but has actually stopped a number of attacks.
Mind over Body - If your Concentration is high, this is a huge benefit.
Obscuring Shadow Veil - Potentially quite nice, but in practice no foe has ever failed the save.
Cloak of Deception - Momentary, but allows SA and avoiding AoOs, or as a GTFO aid.
Searing Charge - For flying or otherwise inconvenient foes.
Hand of Death - This is very cool, but honestly I don't end up using it that much.
Sudden Leap - Not used so much anymore, but with a good Jump check it's like a free move action.
Emerald Razor - I don't use this one unless against an very high-AC foe, but with Power Attack it would be quite useful.

[2xMachina]

Yes! Swordsage handbook!

[Saintheart]

And our triad of ToB is on its way! :)

So, random thoughts -- how're you planning to handle Unarmed Swordsage discussions, Elfin? Separate thread, or within this one?

Obvious ones on feats, but:

- Adaptive Style or at the very least Extra Readied Maneuver seem essential if your plan's to be versatile across the Ninefold Path rather than focused on a particular discipline - Swordsages get the biggest number of maneuvers known and/or readied, and these feats extend that versatility.

- You would be mad, mad I tell you, to take Weapon Focus from the PHB given your class feature at first level is to get Weapon Focus across several different weapons depending on the discipline you have.

[Ernir]

Beat me to it.

Just don't forget about this one! Swordsages are dear to my heart. :smalltongue:

[Darkfire]

Obvious ones on feats, but:
- Adaptive Style or at the very least Extra Readied Maneuver seem essential if your plan's to be versatile across the Ninefold Path rather than focused on a particular discipline - Swordsages get the biggest number of maneuvers known and/or readied, and these feats extend that versatility.

Upgrade Adaptive Style to gold as it also allows the Swordsage to recover manoeuvres faster than their default 1/full round action.
From page 38 the Main FAQ found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

If a character uses the Adaptive Style feat (ToB 28) after he has expended some of his readied maneuvers, does he choose new readied maneuvers equal to the maximum number he can ready, or equal to the number he hasn’t yet expended?
Using the Adaptive Style feat completely resets the character’s readied maneuvers, making them all available for use. If you’re a crusader, you also reset your granted maneuvers.

[Private-Prinny]

Now that this is up, I feel bad for stealing Crusaders from you. :smalltongue:

If you want to handle the Unarmed Swordsage in a different handbook, I'll be more than happy to write that one, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

[Vortling]

Glad to see someone making this as ToB was lacking handbooks for its classes. Swordsage is up there as one of my favorite classes.

That said I doubt there enough real difference in the available choices to warrant six different levels of ratings. It likely causes unnecessary hair splitting arguments on which category something belongs in.

[2xMachina]

Glad to see someone making this as ToB was lacking handbooks for its classes.


Heh, 3.5 got retired for 4.0 before the handbooks came in.

[Draz74]

Level 1 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Burning Blade - Extra damage that scales with level, and multiplies if you make multiple attacks. Yes please. Obviously you'll want to upgrade to higher-level versions when you can, and switch tactics if you're fighting fire-resistant foes.

Distracting Ember - as a swift action, tell an opponent, "You're flanked." If you're the only melee combatant in the party, you need this. Otherwise, it's still not bad, and you can get creative with different ways to take advantage of it.

Wind Stride - 10 feet speed boost for a swift action isn't very impressive. Sudden Leap is usually a better way to do this, if you can get it. Mostly I would just use this maneuver as a prerequisite for higher-level Desert Wind stuff on a Swordsage who eschews magical maneuvers.

Blistering Flourish - Dazzled is the weakest status condition in the game. Don't bother.

Diamond Mind
Moment of Perfect Mind - Your Will save is already pretty good. On the other hand, you have lots of readied maneuvers, and your Concentration check is probably still better.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade - decent low-level bonus damage, and the "flat-footed" aspect just gets better at higher levels as you add in combos. Hard to go wrong.

Setting Sun
Counter Charge - It's situational and defensive, and carries a risk. But charging is a common danger to face, especially at low levels, and most monsters don't have as good Dexterity as you. (If you're a Strength-based Swordsage, this maneuver isn't quite as good.) And negating an attack outright is just sexy.

Mighty Throw - For one turn, you're a tripper build, even if you have low strength. You don't get to do any damage (except, arguably, if you also have Improved Trip), but you do get to throw people 10 feet. This might be cyan colored if it did something about size penalties to trip attempts.

Shadow Hand
Clinging Shadow Strike - Miss chances are good, but a 20% miss chance that allows a save is a pretty sad status condition. Still, at low levels it's hard to argue with anything that gives +1d6 damage and a chance of something else.

Shadow Blade Technique - Extra damage if you roll well both times, extra accuracy if you roll poorly the first time but roll well the second time. I'll let you in on a secret: the real power of this maneuver is to help a Swordsage with Blood in the Water (and a kukri or a scimitar) score a critical threat more easily.

Stone Dragon
Charging Minotaur - This deals massive damage at low levels (if you have a decent Strength) and remaind the poor man's Improved Bull Rush at all levels. I'm only making it black, though, because many Swordsages have poor Strength, and in any case they have Mighty Throw as an alternative option for moving opponents around.

Stone Bones - Great defensive maneuver at very low levels, especially since Swordsages are the most fragile initiator class. But loses its kick very quickly.

Tiger Claw
Sudden Leap - This isn't as great for Swordsages as it is for Warblades. Their Jump scores tend to be a little lower, they have more alternative ways to move and make a full attack, and they're less dependent on making full attacks in general. Most of all, they have a harder time recovering this maneuver once they've used it. Still, if you have max ranks in Jump, it's hardly a bad option, especially for a TWF-er.

Wolf Fang Strike - For a TWF-er, this lets you move and still use both weapons at low levels. For a non-TWF-er, at least it lets you throw in an unarmed strike (or a swing with a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes) occasionally; and in any case, at least it's a gateway maneuver to the excellent Tiger Claw discipline.

[Elfin]

Thanks a bunch, Draz. :smallsmile:

[Draz74]

Level 2 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Burning Brand - Extra reach for a turn is golden if you're trying to close to melee with a Large monster who can Attack of Opportunity you if you approach too quickly. Switching your attacks to Fire damage is situationally useful too (including against anything with DR!).

Fire Riposte - This is pretty impressive damage at the level you get it, and as an immediate action no less! And at low levels, most of your opponents will be making melee attacks. The damage doesn't scale well to higher levels, though.

Flashing Sun - For one round, you have Flurry of Blows like a Monk, only you can do it with any weapon you feel like! Also, it's another [Ex] Desert Wind maneuver. Can be combined with a boost (Burning Blade, anyone?).

Hatchling's Flame - This is a poor amount of damage even compared to a blaster Wizard at this level. The only reason it's not red is because at this low level, spellcasters can still run out of spells, while you can keep using this all day. Also, fire resistance isn't too common yet. (And at least it's four times as big an area as the Dragonfire Adept's at-will attack with the same effect.) This could be an OK choice if you face lots of weak critters.

Diamond Mind
Action Before Thought - Your Reflex save is already pretty good, and failing a Reflex save tends to be slightly less devastating than failing the other saves. Still, this is a good boost to your ability to avoid e.g. breath weapons, Grease spells, or traps.

Emerald Razor - You're less likely than the Warblade to put this in a devastating combo with Power Attack. Still, it's hard to argue with making a touch attack when you just need to hit something.

Setting Sun
Baffling Defense - One of my very favorite maneuvers. With a little investment in your Sense Motive skill (useful anyway), you can basically say "no" to an attack, including a ray thrown at you by a spellcaster. Besides, the image it evokes -- parrying or dodging that's so effortless as to express boredom -- is hilarious.

Clever Positioning - It's a decent effect. Make an attack, switch places (no matter how large the foe) if they fail a Reflex save (which tends to be a poor save). It's just relatively hard to engineer situations where switching places is going to have that much of an impact on the battle. But if you're a tactical genius who can put it to good use, more power to you.

Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception - Spellcasters at this level would kill to have all-day access to Swift Invisibility. And wait, it's greater invisibility? And on a class that can also gain Sneak Attack and similar effects? And you can use it as a getaway card, too, so you can dive for cover and start using your Hide skill? Yeah, this is very hard to pass up.

Drain Vitality - Meh. Constitution damage is nice, but a Fortitude save negates it completely. I'd rather hold out to get the Stone Dragon version in a couple levels.

Shadow Jaunt - This is pretty underwhelming in combat, requiring a standard action to move around the battlefield. But for out-of-combat utility, it's solid gold. There are way too many cool things you can do with infinite short-range teleports.

Stone Dragon
Mountain Hammer - This is fantastic for anyone. Good damage (at the level you get it), useful DR-avoidance, fantastic out-of-combat object-breaking utility, no prerequisites. If anything, it's even better for Swordsages, since they get plenty of maneuvers known and can use some for situational utility, and also since they tend to have lower Strength than other initiators.

Stone Vise - Unimpressive. Mediocre damage boost, allows a save, and the effect isn't even useful if you're standing toe-to-toe with a monster. But I'll give it a Purple, just because Swordsages are skirmishing types who sometimes want to hit a monster, then run away from it.

Tiger Claw
Claw at the Moon - The damage is ok but not great, the crit confirmation boost is usually not important, and the Jump check is probably easy but not automatic at these levels. I'd probably only use this as a prerequisite to get into Tiger Claw, especially when multiclassing to Swordsage from another class.

Rabid Wolf Strike - It's reckless. I can't deny that. But that's some sweet damage you're dealing out with a single attack.

[Elfin]

Added an image (thanks to Greenish) and a quote, but I'm afraid the former is really large. What does everyone think of it?

[Godskook]

Counter Charge - It's situational and defensive, and carries a risk. But if you do happen to get charged when you have this readied, it can be pretty fun to pull out.

I disagree on the coloring of this maneuver. Charge is a high-risk danger, especially at this level, and Counter Charge makes it very hard for 'standard' chargers to charge you(medium+ size and str primary vs medium- size and dex primary).

Its also one of only 2 maneuvers you have available at this level to use as a counter, and moment of the perfect mind is, imho, less likely to come up this early in the game, and even less likely to matter in a class with a wisdom as a secondary stat.

Action economy is big part of the game, and prior to 2nd level maneuvers, counter charge is, imho, the best choice you have.

[bartman]

Yeah the image definietly needs to be less screen-stretchy, maybe import it into a graphics program and shrink it?(afraid I do not have the skills or the time or I would do it now)

[Draz74]

EDIT: I definitely vote to shrink the image. :smallyuk:

@Godskook: Fair enough. I've never actually used Counter Charge, and I was forgetting that a high-Dex Swordsage can force an opponent to roll a Dex check rather than a Strength check (since most monsters tend to be strong brute types). You think it should be black, or blue?

Level 3 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Zephyr Dance - It's a great mental image, to be sure. And another nonmagical Desert Wind option. Whether the mechanics play out largely depends on your group's die-rolling playstyle -- if an attack barely hits you, will you know that using Zephyr Dance will undo the hit? If so, this is good. If not, skip it.

Death Mark - So situational! Obviously if you're fighting a Hill Giant surrounded by goblin mooks, or a Juvenile Dragon surrounded by Kobold worshipers, this is exactly what the doctor ordered. Otherwise, pretty weak, though at least you get to do melee damage, unlike many maneuvers involving an area of effect of fire damage.

Fan the Flames - At the level you get it, this is decent damage. It's almost Psion-level blasting. But it becomes less impressive very, very quickly.

Diamond Mind
Mind over Body - Now we're talking! This is the save you need to protect, and this is a great way to protect it. Unlike a Warblade, you've got plenty of Maneuvers Readied to spend on defensive things.

Insightful Strike - This is a great way to deal damage. Suddenly your little short sword does 1d20 damage instead of 1d6? ... yes please.

Setting Sun
Devastating Throw - A decent tripping trick, it goes a little further than Mighty Throw and deals damage on the side. Still has Mighty Throw's same issues with size, and also has an odd movement requirement; might only be worth it for a dedicated tripper.

Feigned Opening - Why were you provoking Attacks of Opportunity again? You have Tumble as a class skill. Still, this is a fun little mindgame to play on your DM when you've got the Big Boss surrounded by your party on all sides.

Shadow Hand
Shadow Garrote - Mediocre damage for this level, an easy save for many monsters to make, and a mediocre rider effect if they fail the save. Still, neither the damage nor the rider effect is completely pathetic, and at least the fluff implies you can do this from a hiding spot without the target knowing where it's coming from (unlike Fan the Flames). Plus, bonus points for being Darth Vader.

Strength Draining Strike - The good news is, it does 2 Strength damage even on a successful save. The bad news is, even 4 Strength damage isn't as devastating as 2 Constitution damage.

Stone Dragon
Bonecrusher - The damage is mediocre, the rider effect allows a Fortitude save (and if your Strength is not great, that makes Stone Dragon saves easier to pass), the rider effect isn't great even for a crit-fishing build, and keeping track of the effect is annoying for the DM. You can do better than this.

Stone Dragon's Fury - It's not much better than Mountain Hammer, and it's way more situational. And if you're a dedicated Sundering build, I can't imagine why you're a Swordsage.

Tiger Claw
Flesh Ripper - Even a crit-fishing build is never sure enough that it's going to score a critical hit to make this maneuver worthwhile. Especially since the effect isn't amazing even if it works.

Soaring Raptor Strike - Decent damage for this level, and the attack bonus is always welcome. Only works on things bigger than you, but that's not so rare, especially given the popularity of Small races for Swordsages.

[Reynard]

Re-sized image.
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9251/saladinbynjoo.jpg

[Elfin]

Thanks so much, everyone. Basics will be up later.

[Draz74]

Level 4 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Searing Blade - Fire resistance is starting to become more of a concern, but on a build that gets a lot of attacks (TWF? Flashing Sun?) this is still a very impressive amount of bonus damage.

Firesnake - IIRC, it has an unfortunate history of being debated a lot due to poor writing. Besides, it's not great damage, and has the usual "dragon's breath" problem of "Reflex half."

Searing Charge - The damage isn't amazing unless you combine it with Pounce or similar madness, but the utility of the flight can be pretty big if you're creative with it. And at least it lets you make an attack, too (unlike Shadow Jaunt).

Diamond Mind
Bounding Assault - Gives you a bit of extra mobility and +2 to hit, but no good side effects like you could get from other strikes. Still not bad. If you're a dedicated charging build, of course, with goodies like Pounce, this maneuver becomes amazing.

Mind Strike - a bit of Wisdom damage isn't an amazing effect, unless you're fighting a divine caster. Still, I suppose your party casters can find a way to take advantage of lowered Will saves ... if the initial Will save to prevent the damage fails. Again, a Swordsage who neglects Strength will have a very low save DC here.

Ruby Nightmare Blade - Double damage is hard to argue with.

Setting Sun
Comet Throw - Like Devastating Throw, but no movement requirement and twice the damage. That's an upgrade in my book, even if it's a higher-level maneuver.

Strike of the Broken Shield - Flat-footed isn't terribly impressive at this point. It doesn't enable your own Sneak Attack, and if there is another sneak attacker in your party, there are better ways to help them out (like, just flanking). And a save negates it. And the duration is too short to easily set up for e.g. Hand of Death.

Shadow Hand
Both of these are borderline between black and blue. I could be convinced to change either of them.

Hand of Death - It allows a Fortitude save, but at least the DC is based on your Wisdom score. It doesn't let you attack, but at least it's a touch attack. It only works on flat-footed targets, but at least you have several ways of accomplishing such a status effect (Shadow Garrote?). At the end of the day, it's a save-or-lose effect on a melee character. Cool.

Obscuring Shadow Veil - Clinging Shadow Strike's big brother. The damage is ok but not great. The rider effect is pretty good against a melee monster but allows a save. If there weren't a save, this maneuver would be awesome but still not broken.

Stone Dragon
Boulder Roll - Overrunning is terrible. This maneuver doesn't do enough to change that.

Bonesplitting Strike - Quick, clean, simple, add 2 CON damage. No save. Nifty.

Overwhelming Mountain Strike - This is pretty similar to Stone Vise, which was lower level and already pretty bad, but at least this one has a higher save DC and adds a pinch of bonus damage.

Tiger Claw
Fountain of Blood - Flavorful, but there are probably easier ways to hit your opponents with fear effects if that's what you want to do.

Death from Above - This is already great for Warblades, with a decent amount of bonus damage, a bit of free combat maneuverability, and no annoying conditions (the target doesn't need to be bigger than you, and the DC 20 check is a cinch). But for a Swordsage, this is even better, since there are ways (like Sneak Attack) to take advantage of the flat-footed aspect of the strike.

[Godskook]

@Godskook: Fair enough. I've never actually used Counter Charge, and I was forgetting that a high-Dex Swordsage can force an opponent to roll a Dex check rather than a Strength check (since most monsters tend to be strong brute types). You think it should be black, or blue?

Black if your DM favors non-charging tactics heavily and the swordsage is not a dex primary. Blue otherwise.

To me, its a given for any swordsage that starts life at level 1 or 2, and still hard to pass up later on, since it is the only setting sun maneuver that says "lol-no" to chargers.

[Draz74]

Level 5 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Leaping Flame - Teleport 100' as an immediate action. Yeah. Only works against someone who just attacked you, but in combat, that's usually what you want anyway, and can be very satisfying.

Dragon's Flame - Sorry, my patience with these mediocre blasting maneuvers has run out.

Lingering Inferno - Not enough damage. Thoroughly unimpressive compared to other things you can do.

Diamond Mind
Rapid Counter - A minor, situational way to break the action economy. Especially nice with Stance of Alacrity. More important for Swordsages than for Warblades, since they can better afford to Ready situational maneuvers, and since they're less likely to have Combat Reflexes. This is also a nice gateway maneuver into Diamond Mind for a Swordsage that doesn't have ranks in Concentration. (Are there any Swordsages without Concentration? :smallconfused:)

Disrupting Blow - The ability to daze an opponent with a melee attack is great. Almost great enough to make up for how this maneuver doesn't do any bonus damage and will probably have a pretty low save DC.

Setting Sun
Mirrored Pursuit - What mage slayers have always dreamed of. Moving as an immediate action is great, especially if you focus on Counters a lot (Stance of Alacrity?).

Stalking Shadow - Cute, but lives in the shadow (pun intended) of Mirrored Pursuit.

Soaring Throw - I wouldn't get this and Comet Throw, they're too similar. But if you missed Comet Throw, you can get a little extra damage and distance on your tripping with this.

Shadow Hand
Shadow Stride - Now usable in combat, in the same turn as a Strike! Still amazing out of combat. Can be combined with Shadow Jaunt for double the bamf-ing.

Bloodletting Strike - Like Bonesplitting Strike, but since it's a level higher, it at least has the possibility of doing 2 more CON damage if the target happens to fail the save. Nice.

Stone Dragon
Elder Mountain Hammer - If you happen to get the chance to upgrade Mountain Hammer to this, great. There's no reason not to, and it's a good strong strike. Otherwise, this isn't really all that important, since Mountain Hammer has become mostly out-of-combat utility at this point, and there are lots of other great strikes.

Mountain Avalanche - Lots of fun, but not terribly powerful. If you happen to be the rare high-Strength sort of Swordsage, upgrade this to black.

Tiger Claw
Dancing Mongoose - Extra attacks with no downside. Even for a non-TWF-er, I think the lack of a full-attack requirement keeps this in "cyan" range. For a TWF-er, I might even upgrade this to gold.

Pouncing Charge - A huge blessing to a melee character. Of course, if you've already got Pounce from another source, don't bother.

[Dralnu]

Hooray for this handbook! It's been a long time coming.

[Draz74]

Level 6 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Desert Tempest - The grandaddy of nonmagical Desert Wind maneuvers, I would take it just for the awesome dervish flavor. I have to admit it's pretty situational power-wise, though. It's only really great if you're facing a huge number of opponents.

Ring of Fire - Probably not as good as the Cleric just dropping a Flame Strike. At least it's shapeable, which could prevent friendly fire.

Diamond Mind
Moment of Alacrity - With a Dexterity focus and the Quick to Act feature, you're unlikely to have a low initiative score without Delaying (and a low initiative score is the only time this maneuver matters). And since you aren't a Stormguard Warrior, and have fewer auto-stun effects than the Warblade, it's not as valuable for you to have the ability to go twice in a row. I'm sure there are clever combos a Swordsage can think up with this boost, but they're not exactly obvious or crucial.

Greater Insightful Strike - Great damage. Like, you should be forcing saves vs. death from massive damage by using this. Which is pretty great at Level 11-12.

Setting Sun
Scorpion Parry - Like Manticore Parry, but at a lower level and with fewer restrictions. Unfortunately, the Medium BAB of a Swordsage keeps it from being as awesome as it could have been. Still pretty cool, especially if an NPC attacks you with a (high-damage) full attack and its lower iteratives are a low attack bonus.

Ballista Throw - Finally, a trip attack that does something really different -- area-of-effect damage, no save. Tell your least favorite monster to "go away!" and hurt his buddies at the same time.

Shadow Hand
Ghost Blade - Am I missing something? Or is this inferior to Sapphire Nightmare Blade from 10 levels ago?

Shadow Noose - Hello again, Vader. Cute follow-up to its little brother, Shadow Garrote. It's mediocre damage and a decent save-or-suck effect; worth using if your opponent doesn't know where it's coming from.

Stalker in the Night - Awesome name. I want to take it just so I can announce to my DM that I'm using it. Unfortunately, it's not that great, at least in a party context, since it uses your whole turn just to do one attack and stay hidden. (For an annoying NPC, it's much better.)

Stone Dragon
Crushing Vise - I wouldn't take this as a Warblade, but as a skirmishing Swordsage? Well, remember how I gave those other Stone Dragon manuevers Purple status because of their hit-and-run potential? This is like those, with no save. Awesome for a cowardly Swordsage who wants to get far away from his nastier opponents.

Iron Bones - Even as a more fragile melee character, you probably have better ways to get temporary Hit Points or Damage Reduction than this.

Irresistible Mountain Strike - My goodness, who named these things? A maneuver with a save should not be named "irresistible." Switch this with Crushing Vise, please! In the meantime ... it's a very powerful rider effect if the target happens to fail the save, and in any case at least there's a little bit of nominal bonus damage.

Tiger Claw
Rabid Bear Strike - Now that's a respectable amount of bonus damage, especially considering the attack bonus too. The AC "recklessness penalty" isn't as significant as it was at low levels, either.

Wolf Climbs the Mountain - The damage isn't great, but this is kind of nice for a Small (or smaller) Swordsage who's too feat-starved to afford Confound the Big Folk. Similar effect, much easier to get. I would upgrade this to blue if it was a standard action instead of a full-round action.

[Draz74]

Level 7 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Inferno Blade - Fire Resistance is becoming a bigger and bigger concern at higher levels, but 23+ extra damage on every attack of a full attack is still nothing to sneeze at.

Salamander Charge - It's awesome, there's no doubt about that. Charging and literally leaving a wall of fire in your wake? Sweet. And the mere concept of a melee character shaping the battlefield is pretty novel, and the ability to charge with less restrictions is nifty. But I just don't think the wall of fire does enough damage to make this much better than Bounding Assault, which came six levels earlier.

Diamond Mind
Quicksilver Motion - It looks like action economy-breaking awesomeness at first glance, but there are actually a number of items (not to mention the Hustle power) that can give you a move action (or at least let you move) as a swift action. And they're pretty affordable by this level. If you're playing in a low-item game, this maneuver could be upgraded.

Avalanche of Blades - Without any special combos, this isn't really any better than a normal full attack, especially with a Swordsage's accuracy difficulties. Of course it gets a lot better if you combo it with Wraithstrike or Stormguard Warrior or something.

Setting Sun
Hydra Slaying Strike - Ironically, this is technically worthless against Hydras. On the other hand, it's pretty much incredible against any other melee monster, such as Dragons.

Shadow Hand
Shadow Blink - Every character (except maybe Wizards who already have Abrupt Jaunt) wants this. If only they had initiator level 13, they would use a feat to get it. (How the heck does it not have any prerequisites? Or a [Su] tag?)

Death in the Dark - Almost as cool-sounding as "Stalker in the Night," and it does pretty decent damage at the level you get it. Too bad it offers a save.

Stone Dragon
Ancient Mountain Hammer - See Elder Mountain Hammer. Again, nice but not crucial.

Colossus Strike - As a Swordsage, you're much better off using the Setting Sun throws.

Tiger Claw
Hamstring Attack - Unimpressive effect, and allows a save (Strength-based, no less).

Swooping Dragon Strike - If you've focused on your Jump check, this is the maneuver where it pays off.

[Draz74]

Level 8 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Wyrm's Fire - No. Just no.

Diamond Mind
Diamond Defense - Now protect all of your Saves with one Readied Maneuver, or protect your Fortitude save twice.

Diamond Nightmare Blade - Quadruple damage. I don't know what else to say.

Setting Sun
Fool's Strike - Another of my very favorite maneuvers in the book, this would be a better color if it weren't paired with the Swordsage's Medium BAB. Still, a great choice, especially against foes who have lower attack bonuses on their iterative attacks.

Shadow Hand
One with Shadow - Everything should be able to handle incorporeality by this level, but maybe not if they're caught by surprise. It's a good defensive move. Also, use it to walk through walls, or to make Greater Insightful Strikes as touch attacks.

Enervating Shadow Strike - Negative Levels are fun, and never go out of style. But the Wizard could do this 8 levels ago, and with no Save.

Stone Dragon
Adamantine Bones - Too little, too late. I'd rather use Hydra Slaying Strike if I'm about to take a full attack.

Earthstrike Quake - I'm not impressed. If you're set on knocking a bunch of enemies prone, hold out for Tornado Throw.

Tiger Claw
Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip - A very significant amount of damage for a TWF-er to add to his full attack. Of course, skip it if you're not TWF-ing.

Raging Mongoose - Four extra attacks on a full attack, or on any Strike (Wolf Fang Strike? Time Stands Still?) that allows using both weapons? Halelujah. Even for a non-TWF-er I'd say this is awesome.

[Draz74]

Level 9 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Inferno Blast - Eh, I'm sure the political power of being able to burn down an army, neighborhood, or village every 12 seconds must be immense. But against CR-appropriate monsters? This won't do much.

Diamond Mind
Time Stands Still - Lots of attacks are the name of the game for a Swordsage, especially if you use two weapons and/or get Sneak Attack. Time Stands Still increases your output like nothing else.

Setting Sun
Tornado Throw - Nothing says "epic monk is pwning you" like a good Tonado Throw, especially if the same opponent gets thrown over and over again (in one turn). (Hmm, use this maneuver in confined spaces?) On the other hand, the damage isn't really so impressive, and often the kinds of monsters you face at this level are too big to trip easily, or too big to trip at all, and don't come in the kinds of numbers that make this maneuver really impressive.

Shadow Hand
Five-Shadow-Strike-of-Ridiculous-Name - Too random for my taste, but I've got to admit, regardless of the random outcome (or even whether the save is successful), this will do some nasty things.

Stone Dragon
Mountain Tombstone Strike - Nice effect, no save, infamously has no prerequisites. Looks better on a Swordsage, since it's not sitting next to the equally-powerful Strike of Perfect Clarity.

Tiger Claw
Feral Death Blow - Too many things can go wrong here, even though the Jump check should be easy. Full-round action. Target has to be vulnerable to crits. Allows a (Strength-based DC) save. Still, it is a save-twice-or-die effect (with massive damage coming into play), and there's something to be said for that.

[Elfin]

...Draz?
You're awesome.

[Reynard]

I think Draz fell into a Fey Mood. Thankfully, he only asked for Internets, and not shells.

[Draz74]

...Draz?
You're awesome.

I know. :smallcool:

I'm done, by the way. Some other over-achiever can feel free to take over on Stances/Feats/etc.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Level 9 Maneuvers

Desert Wind

Diamond Mind

Setting Sun

Shadow Hand
Creeping-Ice-Five-Shadow-Enervating-Strike - Too random for my taste, but I've got to admit, regardless of the random outcome (or even whether the save is successful), this will do some nasty things.

Stone Dragon

Tiger Claw


Some things about the shadow Hand 9th level maneuver


Fixed that for you :smallwink:
You forgot the reason to take the maneuver; the look on your DM's face when you announce "I initiate Creeping Ice Five Shadow Enervating Strike" on the BBEG/Dragon/ETC. (note for maximum effect yell IC and OOC)


I would give you an internet; but I lost my internet saving on the great internet crash

[Runestar]

Another problem with inferno blast - it is near impossible to aim properly. Being a burst centered on you, you will inevitably end up nuking the rest of your party in the process.

One with shadow has another benefit which is not readily apparent. From the SRD,
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it.
Meaning your attacks are touch attacks, assuming you are willing to spring for a ghost touch weapon (otherwise you incur a 50% miss chance). Unfortunately, you lose your str score, which means you cannot combine diamond nightmare blade with a full-out power attack. :smallfrown:

Firesnake - I have found it is nice for selectively hitting multiple foes, though the damage sucks (and that is before save and fire resistance!). I thought the text was quite clear on how it worked.

[Reynard]

Meaning your attacks are touch attacks, assuming you are willing to spring for a ghost touch weapon (otherwise you incur a 50% miss chance). Unfortunately, you lose your str score, which means you cannot combine diamond nightmare blade with a full-out power attack. :smallfrown:

Incorporeal/Ghost Touch doesn't work that way. /morbo.

[Runestar]

Incorporeal/Ghost Touch doesn't work that way. /morbo.

I was going off the rules compendium ruling.:smallsmile:


Nonmagical attacks made by an incorporeal creature with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets, and any melee attack an incorporeal creature makes with a magic weapon against a corporeal target has a 50% miss chance, except for attacks it makes with a ghost touch weapon, which are made normally (no miss chance).

[Draz74]

One with shadow has another benefit which is not readily apparent. From the SRD,
Meaning your attacks are touch attacks, assuming you are willing to spring for a ghost touch weapon (otherwise you incur a 50% miss chance).

Problem: One with Shadow has a duration "until the start of your next turn." And I don't think you can use immediate actions on your turn, can you? (If you can, that certainly means One with Shadow is better than I thought!) So getting any attacks while it is active, other than attacks of opportunity, isn't trivial.

[2xMachina]

Immediate Action

An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm)

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#immediateActions)

[icefractal]

Minor disagreement on the 1st level ones:

Charging Minotaur - Sure, the bull rush effect is somewhat mediocre. But it ignores AoOs for movement! Need to get past a bunch of foes? Charging Minotaur somebody on the other side. Like a super-Tumble with a free (if not too effective) attack.

Sudden Leap - Even if you have no investment into Jump, this is ~10' swift action movement - probably as good as you'll get at low level, and enough to turn a 5' step into "out of full-attack range". If you have, say, Boots of Striding and Springing for the movement boost, then we're talking 20'.

Shadow Blade Technique - This is much better than Clinging Shadow Strike. Whether it should be cyan or CSS should be black, I don't know, but it does the same bonus damage, significantly increases your chance to hit, and increases your chance to crit, at the expense of a really crappy debuff.

Distracting Ember - I'd call this 'meh'. There are a lot of manuevers that enable SA, and this one doesn't do much else. It doesn't even stick around long enough for an enemy to waste attacks on it, and you can't help allies unless they specially ready for the opportunity.

[Greenish]

Sudden Leap - Even if you have no investment into Jump, this is ~10' swift action movementIf you've no investment in Jump, you'll need quite a high strength to make DC 20 check with any reliability.

That reminds me, an item most swordsages will want is the Boots of Agile Leaping from MIC, which allow you to use dex instead of str for Jump checks, and you can stand up from prone as a swift action. That's quite a bargain for 600 gp.

[Runestar]

You may also wish to point out that since swordsages are more likely to invest in dex over str compared to crusaders or warblades, those maneuvers with a DC based off str are less useful, such as feral death strike.

Also, anyone have any combos for spike damage they wish to share? I have one which is quite useful for one-shotting fatties.

Swordsage5+ - In assassin's strike with shadow blade, burning blade+flashing sun+haste gives you 3 attacks, each of which does 2d6 sneak attack, 1d6+5 fire and +dex mod damage. You are averaging 25 damage per hit. :smallcool:

[Dusk Eclipse]

You may also wish to point out that since swordsages are more likely to invest in dex over str compared to crusaders or warblades, those maneuvers with a DC based off str are less useful, such as feral death strike.

Also, anyone have any combos for spike damage they wish to share? I have one which is quite useful for one-shotting fatties.

Swordsage5+ - In assassin's strike with shadow blade, burning blade+flashing sun+haste gives you 3 attacks, each of which does 2d6 sneak attack, 1d6+5 fire and +dex mod damage. You are averaging 25 damage per hit. :smallcool:

Add Insightful Strike Desert Wind to add wisdom modifier as bonus damage.

[Draz74]

[Immediate Action stuff]

Cool, One with Shadow should be upgraded to cyan then. This also means it can let you walk through walls, after all.


Shadow Blade Technique - This is much better than Clinging Shadow Strike. Whether it should be cyan or CSS should be black, I don't know, but it does the same bonus damage, significantly increases your chance to hit, and increases your chance to crit, at the expense of a really crappy debuff.

Thing is, it only sometimes does the bonus damage (i.e. when you roll both attacks high enough that you can use the lower attack number and still hit).

[icefractal]

But that's still better than not hitting at all, which you would have done with only one attack roll.

Well, more accurately (H = hit change, D = base damage):
CSS = H(W + 3.5)
SBT = (1 - (1-H)^2)W + 3.5H^2
So if your base damage is at all decent, and/or the chance to hit is low, then SBT wins.


If you've no investment in Jump, you'll need quite a high strength to make DC 20 check with any reliability.Forgot about the halving. Still, even 5' is often enough to move out of full-attack range.

[Corrik]

Been looking forward to this handbook for some time, can't wait to see it finished.

[Elfin]

Sorry about the long hiatus there! Don't worry, I haven't shelved the project; thanks for the nudge. I'll get right back to it - expect further updates later today.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Sweet. :smallbiggrin: I'm actually building a swordsage for an upcoming campaign I'm hoping to get into. This guide has been helpful.

[Elfin]

I'll get right back to it - expect further updates later today.

...Or not. Many apologies for the delay, but fundamentals and class features are now on deck.

[Endarire]

1: Mountain Tombstone Strike's and Stone Dragon menuvers' prereqs are misleading. Tome of Battle 81 states:

"Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force- the power of earth and stone- to help power their maneuvers.... Stone Dragon maneuvers maneuvers can only be initiated if you are in contact with the ground."

Meaning, at levels 1 and 2 when almost no one has fly, levitate, alter self, or the like, Stone Dragon has no additional requirement. Later, when you should be flying or swimming,

2: I can't easily tell, just by skimming, where the disciplines change. Please make it obvious, like so:


Desert Wind

3: Boulder Roll gets another drawback. It's a full round boost, making it almost impossible to use! Even worse, your opponent can just choose to ignore you! Ick. Ick. Ick!

4: Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose let you attack as a siwft action. You need not make any other attacks in this round. For example, a Wizard/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage may use Dancing Mongoose an an adjacent foe, Tumble away, then pelt his buddies with solid fog or Evard's black tentacles.

5: Moment of Alacrity means that you will frequently go first on your second turn. Sometimes, this is quite useful. In a 1v1, taking two consecutive turns may mean you win. I always want this on my martial adepts. It should be at least blue.

[Private-Prinny]

4: Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose let you attack as a siwft action. You need not make any other attacks in this round. For example, a Wizard/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage may use Dancing Mongoose an an adjacent foe, Tumble away, then pelt his buddies with solid fog or Evard's black tentacles.

While I agree with most of what you said, this is just... no. There are two holes in your argument.

1. If the attacks are taken immediately, why does a duration have to be specified?
2. The attacks are explicitly called out as additional attacks.
ad·di·tion·al
–adjective
added; more; supplementary: additional information.


They are extra attacks taken above and beyond your usual attacks, taken when you actually attack.

[bartman]

Question regarding Cloak of Deception. It says you are invisible until the end of your current turn. Would you become visible when the next on the initiative stack goes? I think this is it, but I am not 100% certain.

Thanks in advance

[Reynard]

Question regarding Cloak of Deception. It says you are invisible until the end of your current turn. Would you become visible when the next on the initiative stack goes? I think this is it, but I am not 100% certain.

Thanks in advance

Yeah, that's how it works.

You:
> Go invisible.
> Shankshankshank
> End turn, become visible.
Next in Line:
> Does whatever. Hits a dude in the face, presumably.

[MeeposFire]

While I agree with most of what you said, this is just... no. There are two holes in your argument.

1. If the attacks are taken immediately, why does a duration have to be specified?
2. The attacks are explicitly called out as additional attacks.

They are extra attacks taken above and beyond your usual attacks, taken when you actually attack.

I agree. While it can be any type of attack (standard, full attack, strike, or similar action that fulfills the term attack which is defined in ToB) you do need to attack before using that boost.

For instance using mountain tombstone strike and then using raging mongoose on the target.

[Endarire]

Could I use Dancing Mongoose before shooting someone with a scorching ray, since the spell requires an accuracy roll?

[ToySoldierCPlus]

If you were intending to get more attacks with your scorching ray, no, that wouldn't work.

[Timeless Error]

Could I use Dancing Mongoose before shooting someone with a scorching ray, since the spell requires an accuracy roll?

Emphasis mine.

Wait, there's seriously a Tome of Battle maneuver called Dancing Mongoose? Awesome.
And wait, there's Raging Mongoose as well! Even more awesome!

Anyway, I thought I'd step in to show my support for this thread, as well as the other awesome ToB Handbooks for the Crusader and Warblade classes. I look forward to the completion of this project.

[Elfin]

Thanks very much, Timeless.
I'll start covering stances now.

[MeeposFire]

I remember a tornado throw build that was among the most damaging in the game. It was absolutely nuts. Too bad it was a crusader build.

[Endarire]

Chuck E. Cheese (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5788.0) set the land speed record for its time. It uses Crusader, Cleric, and Swordsage for its base classes.

[MeeposFire]

Yea I think that was it. So it did use swordsage yay. That build is hilarious.

[poignant123]

For instance using mountain tombstone strike and then using raging mongoose on the target.

Doesn't work, because the Tome of Battle section that pertains to Strikes mentions:

Because strikes allow for a specific form of attack,
you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant
you extra attacks when making a strike (such as the
haste spell or a speed weapon).You are not taking a
full attack action when you initiate a strike, even
if its initiation action is 1 full-round action.

I would say otherwise for Time Stands Still, because it specifically mentions you take 2 Full Attack actions.

[Rasman]

I...think I just fanboyed...:smallfrown:

[Amphetryon]

I fully acknowledge it's situational, but I love the idea of a debuffs-focused Swordsage as the skillmonkey/skirmisher in a group built around debuffing. Combined with a Hexblade and a Dread Necromancer, for instance, a majority of enemies can be rendered helpless.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Level 9 Maneuvers

Desert Wind
Inferno Blast - Eh, I'm sure the political power of being able to burn down an army, neighborhood, or village every 12 seconds must be immense. But against CR-appropriate monsters? This won't do much.



In a wartime campaign, this is awesome. You could kill a significant part of the opposing force(including catapults and siege towers).

[MeeposFire]

Doesn't work, because the Tome of Battle section that pertains to Strikes mentions:

Because strikes allow for a specific form of attack,
you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant
you extra attacks when making a strike (such as the
haste spell or a speed weapon).You are not taking a
full attack action when you initiate a strike, even
if its initiation action is 1 full-round action.

I would say otherwise for Time Stands Still, because it specifically mentions you take 2 Full Attack actions.

You are write from what you are writing since all you mention are based off of using a full attack. Mongoose does not require a full attack. It is similar to the snap kick feat. Mongoose just requires the use of an attack and then it lets you use the boost to make additional normal attacks at your full attack bonus. Your point only stands when something says it needs a full attack action or the sort.

[2xMachina]

No Stance review?

[Greenish]

I already gushed about it in the warblade handbook, but the Revenant Blade (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872270/The_Revenant_Blade_Handbook) is awesome enough to mention in here too.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I already gushed about it in the warblade handbook, but the Revenant Blade (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872270/The_Revenant_Blade_Handbook) is awesome enough to mention in here too.

Yeah, it's awesome for guerrilla warriors(mobility) and TWFers.

[MeeposFire]

One thing that many people forget in a generic campaign that does not allow necklace of natural attacks, battlefists, or the other common unarmed attack boosters the best way to boost your unarmed attack is the standard guantlet. Monks cannot do this because they are not proficient with them and they cannot use them with a flurry of blows but swordsages (unarmed or otherwise) do not have this problem. Guantlets allow for the improved unarmed damage as well (as per page 21 of the main 3.5 FAQ) so until you get something better (such as a battlefist) guantlets are an unarmed swordsages best friend, unless you are using shadowblade.

Remember even with just superior unarmed strike a guantlet clad swordsage with snap kick is awesome.

[Devmaar]

One thing that many people forget in a generic campaign that does not allow necklace of natural attacks, battlefists, or the other common unarmed attack boosters the best way to boost your unarmed attack is the standard guantlet. Monks cannot do this because they are not proficient with them and they cannot use them with a flurry of blows but swordsages (unarmed or otherwise) do not have this problem. Guantlets allow for the improved unarmed damage as well (as per page 21 of the main 3.5 FAQ) so until you get something better (such as a battlefist) guantlets are an unarmed swordsages best friend, unless you are using shadowblade.

Remember even with just superior unarmed strike a guantlet clad swordsage with snap kick is awesome.

Spiked gauntlet is better as you count as being armed.

[MeeposFire]

Spiked gauntlet is better as you count as being armed.

Ah but spiked gauntlets do not deal your unarmed damage, they always deal 1d4. Standard gauntlets deal your unarmed damage which if you have superior unarmed strike could be 2d6 at high levels (and even higher if you use unarmed swordsage variant). Further since we are talking about unarmed swordsages they would have imp unarmed strike (or monk UA if unarmed swordsage) which allows you to be armed.

Spiked gauntlets only have an advantage over other weapons because they cannot be disarmed and a free way to add defensive weapons without using them.

So standard gauntlets are the best for unarmed swordmages that cannot get necklace of natural attacks or battlefists.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Are there actually any supernatural abilities in the setting sun discipline? I've looked through all of the setting sun maneuvers and stances and haven't found any.:smallconfused:

[Corrik]

Giving this one a bump, don't want to see it fall to the wayside.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Giving this one a bump, don't want to see it fall to the wayside.

It was only a week since anyone posted.At least I waited nine days.

[Drynwyn]

Nice! This will be most useful to me. Useful indeed.
Burn, Dungeon Master, in the face of my blatant munchkinry.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nice! This will be most useful to me. Useful indeed.
Burn, Dungeon Master, in the face of my blatant munchkinry.

And min-maxing! And optimizing!

[Corrik]

Taking the forum restructuring as an excuse to give this a bump.

[Endarire]

It's been awhile since we got updates. So, any updates?

[Forbiddenwar]

Thanks for doing this. It's been very helpful.
Could I suggest for a mobile fighter, take some tumble?

As for stances:
I've found Islands of blades to be very helpful at first level. And once you get sneak attack, it can mean a sneak attack with every attack.
And then comes the sneak attack snap kicks.

Edit: Oh and

Roles: Why You Walk the Way
Tank – You’re simply not a tank, with a low hit die, light armor proficiency, and class features that reward mobility.[/spoiler]

made me laugh, because my VoP unarmed swordsage has the highest AC in the party. ( which means the fighter must be doing something wrong) Heaven forbid those criticals though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It's been awhile since we got updates. So, any updates?

Sadly Elfin hasn't been online since february so I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sadly Elfin hasn't been online since february so I wouldn't hold my breath.

In the warblade thread, someone suggested copy/pasting the stuff onto a new thread.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In the warblade thread, someone suggested copy/pasting the stuff onto a new thread.

Not really sure, that seems a bit disrespecrful; though it isn't a bad idea per se.

[Drynwyn]

Hooray! I a) got my swordsage's AC to hit 35 and b) figured out a way to dish out 24d6 points of damage in one round using a single maneuver!
With a level twelve build.
BURN, DUNGEON MASTER! BUUUUURRRRRNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Technique will be coming in a few days. I want to see if anyone else can figure it out.
HINT: Tactical feat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hooray! I a) got my swordsage's AC to hit 35 and b) figured out a way to dish out 24d6 points of damage in one round using a single maneuver!
With a level twelve build.
BURN, DUNGEON MASTER! BUUUUURRRRRNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Technique will be coming in a few days. I want to see if anyone else can figure it out.
HINT: Tactical feat.

Alight, it's been a few days. Can you tell us?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Skills not yet rated:

Heal - Not even Clerics take this. Pass.
Hide - Swordsages can easily take the 'forward scout' role. For this, you need Hide and Move Silently.
Intimidate -If you want to go that route, it can be used to lockdown. Otherwise, don't bother
Jump - When used with the Tiger Claw maneuvers (including Pouncing Strike), it can be very nasty.
Knowledge (History) -
Knowledge (Local) -
Knowledge (Nature) -
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) -
All knowledge skills: depends on what your party needs and if you took a dip in Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion or not.
Listen -Nothing sucks like getting surprised
Martial Lore - Not very useful unless your GM throws a lot of ToB classes back at you
Move Silently - See the Hide entry
Profession - It's Profession, did you expect anything different?
Ride - Swordsages don't even have the 'ubercharger with a mount' excuse.
Sense Motive - In addition to being used to counter Bluff used to Feint in combat to avoid a nasty sneak attack, it's use with Setting Sun cannot be underestimated. Particularly when it is combined with Baffling Defense, it is even better
Swim - How often do you really need to use this?
Tumble - Bypass AoO's while closing for the kill? Check. Bonus to AC when you don't want to get hit? Check. Definition of a mobility-enhancing skill? Check. Get this? Check.

[Kaeso]

Not really sure, that seems a bit disrespecrful; though it isn't a bad idea per se.

It does, but if Elfin doesn't finish this handbook it might be good to let a few other playgrounders finish it.

[Corrik]

Elfin's last activity was back in the middle of February, I'm sure he would understand if someone else took over to finish the handbook.

[Hazzardevil]

I'm about to start (hopefully playing one,) I'll repost this and carry on.

[Hazzardevil]

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10850165#post10850165)is my handbook, I'll start working on it later.

[Drynwyn]

And, after much delay, we bring you.... THE 24d6 DAMAGE BUILD!
This build is for level 11, when you get your first level 6 maneuver. THis must be ring of fire. You must then take Desert Wind Dodge and Tactical Feat: Scorching Sirroco. You must also max out Tumble and select 2 Desert Wind stances, plus either a +6 Tumble item or a +3 ite and skill focus. At least half of your maneuver slots should be ring of fire.
Round 1:Act as normal, but make sure to move at least 10 feet and enter a desert wind stance.
Round 2: You can now use the third tactical ability of Scorchng Sirroco. This deals 1d6 fire damage to an opponent when you avoid provoking an attack of opportunity using tumble. Use ring of fire. Use "accelerated tumble" to increase the DC of the avoid check to 25 while moving at full speed.mSince assuming an 18 DEX( which every Swordsage should have by level 11 anyway), you have +24 to tumble, an auto-success. You can move 12 squares since ring of fire grants a double move, moving away from the target with your last 5 feet of movement and switching Desert Wind stances. 12d6 from successful Tumbling + 12d6 from Ring of Fire= 24d6.
P.S. If you have enough Diamond mind maneuvers, take Quicksilver Motion later to bump up damage to 30d6.

[Greenish]

And, after much delay, we bring you.... THE 24d6 DAMAGE BUILD!Pounce & Searing Charge & Dancing Mongoose for five attacks with 5d6 bonus damage each? Works from ECL 10, too.

Of course, yours is AoE, that's just single target.

[Edit]: You can't ready the same maneuver more than once, and you only provoke AoO from movement 1/enemy/round max.

[Draz74]

and you only provoke AoO from movement 1/enemy/round max.

Wait. So if I move past an enemy, and leave multiple threatened squares as part of my movement, he doesn't get to choose at what point he takes a swing at me?

He can only take one swing, yeah. But I think until he actually makes an AoO, I keep provoking AoO opportunities each time I move another square.

I could be wrong, though.

[Essence_of_War]

This build is for level 11, when you get your first level 6 maneuver. THis must be ring of fire. You must then take Desert Wind Dodge and Tactical Feat: Scorching Sirroco. You must also max out Tumble and select 2 Desert Wind stances, plus either a +6 Tumble item or a +3 ite and skill focus. At least half of your maneuver slots should be ring of fire.

This isn't allowed. A maneuver is either readied or not readied for a pure swordsage. You cannot ready a maneuver multiple times.

[Drynwyn]

All right, then only ready it once. Still enough to kill most things.
Also, where is this "only Aoo per enemy per round" coming from? He can only MAKE one attack, but when I Tumble, I don't provoke, so he still threatens.

[Cieyrin]

Also, where is this "only Aoo per enemy per round" coming from? He can only MAKE one attack, but when I Tumble, I don't provoke, so he still threatens.


Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Pretty much that. There's only one provocation per action. Moving past them doesn't produce multiple AoOs.

[Greenish]

Wait. So if I move past an enemy, and leave multiple threatened squares as part of my movement, he doesn't get to choose at what point he takes a swing at me?

He can only take one swing, yeah. But I think until he actually makes an AoO, I keep provoking AoO opportunities each time I move another square.And you are:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.The first time you provoke, it's a "speak now or forever hold peace" sort of deal. Next time you move out of a threatened square during the same round, you won't provoke, so the the enemy doesn't get to choose when to take it's AoO.

And for the same reason you can't stack those d6's from Scorching Sirocco on a single target, now matter how you danced and cartwheeled around him.

[Half-orc Bard]

Thanks so much for doing this. I didn't know about Tome of Battle before this and it is perfect for me. I hated wizards doing insane damage while I hit a guy with a sword a few times, but then I made a warblade using your other handbook, and I love it. I can't wait for this one to be finished:smallbiggrin:

[Half-orc Bard]

In the Warblade handbook you said what the disciplines did and how well they did it can you please do this for this hand book as well:smallsmile:

[Half-orc Bard]

Stances: setting sun
Shifting defense Think about if a monster full attacks you after the first obe leave his reach and on your turn go in and attack and this can go on for quite a while

Step of the wild This stance is situational and even if you always got the benefits it's still only

Giant killing style This was great for my whisper gnome unarmed swordsage. It's not so great for medium swordsages.

Ghostly defense This can be fun! Another player is pissing you off, drink a potion displacement and make him get hurt, or you could make it hit a monster. Still I like it for revenge

[Half-orc Bard]

Diamond mind stances:

Hearing the air this is okay but a magic item does it better but if you can only use core and ToB this is Nice


Pearl of black doubt For those people who are AC junkies this is nice others it's just a meh

Stance of clarity This is okay at first level when if anything hits you you're dead but it soon loses it's punch

Stance of alacrity this great two counters per round or a swift manuver and a counter! This is great but you can live without it. If you meet the pre-recs GET THIS

[Half-orc Bard]

Tiger claw stances:
Blood in the water This is nice and a must Kukri crit fishers


Leaping dragon stance for all you jumpers this can be fun like jumping 60 feet per round without running, but not great for optimization


Prey on the weak extra attacks are alway welcome, but you can do better because it's situational

Wolverine stance who grapples?

Wolf pack tactics this is nice for swordsages with sneak attack

[Half-orc Bard]

Dessert wind stances:
Fiery assault This must be a typo this would be nice at first level, but as a 6th level stance! No way

Flame's blessing have the wizard or cleric cast energy resistance on you! But in a fire heavy game it's nice

Holocaust cloak No no just no

Rising phoenixas a third level stance this would be nice, but it's an eighth level stance so just use a magic item.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Giant killing style This was great for my whisper gnome unarmed swordsage. It's not so great for medium swordsages.

It should be noted in Giant Killing Style and Stonefoot Stance that they're great for small-sized swordsages or warblades.

[Half-orc Bard]

That s true

[Endarire]

Was this handbook updated or finished somewhere? I'd love to have a full version!