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Paseo H
2010-12-31, 06:10 AM
Scenario:

Player uses a Wish to paralyze someone per Hold Person (specifically, an Archmage), with automatic success.

Of course, this is so they can immediately behead the person.

By the letter this should be okay, but by the spirit isn't this basically 'wishing someone dead?'

Kurald Galain
2010-12-31, 06:13 AM
Sounds reasonable to me.

Note that an Archmage worth his salt is not necessarily going to be helpless while paralyzed.

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 06:14 AM
I see....what are some ways? I haven't used Archmages too much.

FelixG
2010-12-31, 06:15 AM
I would have the wish back fire some how, as doing the hold person is completely ok but wishing that the person cant save against it is not.

I would have to think for awhile for a good back fire on the person :smallbiggrin:

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 06:18 AM
Probably Contingent spells.

Stilled Silent spells may work.

Halae
2010-12-31, 06:19 AM
Probably Contingent spells.

If he entered archamge through wizard (or is just a wizard with a title) then really, you would be doing his high intelligence poor justice if he wasn't protected in some way from this sort of silliness

Runestar
2010-12-31, 06:20 AM
There are already spells which automatically disable the foe, and at lower lvs. Eg: Stun ray (ranged touch, stuns for at least 1 round). Seems like a fair use of a 9th lv spell which costs 5000xp, though it does seem to set a dangerous precedent.

As for warding against paralysis, the archmage may have the heart of XXX line of spells active, heart of water can be activated for a temporary freedom of movement benefit, negating the paralysis.

Though for a good reason why high lv wizards just won't die, look at the Elminster's Evasion spell in FRCS.:smallamused:

Elminster's Evasion
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M, F, XP
Casting Time: At least 10 minutes (see text)
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until discharged

This powerful variant of the contingency spell automatically transfers you and everything you carry or touch (except for other creatures or objects that weigh more than 50 pounds) to a locale you name.
- When casting Elminster's evasion, you must specify the locale and detail up to six specific conditions that trigger the spell. When any of these situations occurs, your body, mind, and soul are whisked away to the location. The location can be any place you have visited, even on another plane. Also when casting the spell, you can greater teleport and one or two other spells that are to take effect when you arrive at your destination. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for all castings. If the companion spells have combined casting times longer than 10 minutes, use the combined casting times instead. The greater teleport spell whisks you through the Astral Plane to your destination, so anything that prevents astral travel also foils Elminster's evasion.
- The spells to be brought into effect by the evasion must be ones that affect your person (feather fall, levitate, fly, teleport, and so on) and be of a spell level no higher than one third of your caster level (maximum 6th level).
- The conditions you specify to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general (see the contingency spell).
- The spell pulls together your mind, body, and soul if they have been separated. For example, if your soul is trapped in a magic jar when the evasion is triggered, your soul returns to your body. (This breaks the magic jar spell.) If your body or soul has been magically trapped (for example with a binding, imprisonment, or trap the soul spell), you must succeed at a caster level check (DC 11 + the caster level of the person who cast the trapping spell). If you succeed, the trapping spell is broken and the evasion works. If you fail, the evasion fails. If you're dead when you arrive at your destination (and do not have a ressurection spell attached to the evasion), your soul immediately departs just as though you died at your destination.
- Material Components: Those of the companion spells, plus quicksilver; an eyelash of an ogre mage, ki-rin, or similiar spell-using creature; and some of your own blood, freshly drawn. Drawing the blood deals 1d4 points of temporary Constitution damage. These hit points remain incurably lost until the evasion is triggered, at which point they are immediately recovered.
- Focus: A statuette of you carved from ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the evasion to function.
- XP Cost: 5,000 XP.

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 06:21 AM
Well the whole point of using a Wish instead of Hold Person is precisely because the Wish would merit an automatic success, otherwise they could just use Hold Person.

Having the Archmage not be powerless would be a better way, I'd think.

Also hypothetically, being taken off guard would be justified if said Archmage was some eccentric obsessive who didn't think everything through, like having said Wishing ring used against him.

FelixG
2010-12-31, 06:24 AM
Well the whole point of using a Wish instead of Hold Person is precisely because the Wish would merit an automatic success, otherwise they could just use Hold Person.

Having the Archmage not be powerless would be a better way, I'd think.

Also hypothetically, being taken off guard would be justified if said Archmage was some eccentric obsessive who didn't think everything through, like having said Wishing ring used against him.

Backrfire on the wish:

He is held, but not hold person, he is effected by a time stop like spell, he cant be harmed in any way

as I said, that is not on the approved wishables, it encourages the GM to be creative with backfires, this way it gives them their desired result but tweaks it a little so they cant just auto win.

That is still 1d4+1 rounds or so of healing

Halae
2010-12-31, 06:24 AM
Despite this, using magic on an archmage is generally a bad idea. one staple use of contingency is to put the contingency "If I become immobilized, cast freedom of movement on me" and suddenly you disable a lot of potential problems, and any archmage worth his salt would know this sort of trick

Noble Savant
2010-12-31, 06:25 AM
He spent 5000 exp to get this wish. Unless it's really problematic for your campaign, I'd probably let him get his wish. If you want the Archmage alive, have him use some sort of contingent teleport to get away. I'd still leave the wizard something for his trouble though, maybe some magic item the Archmage left behind.

Mastikator
2010-12-31, 06:26 AM
I'd allow it.

And the archmage has a silenced teleport prepared. :smallamused:

Kaww
2010-12-31, 06:28 AM
Or allow him the Archmage to cast a SLA with no verbal, somatic, material components and kick his ass for trying such a childish murder attempt.

Fable Wright
2010-12-31, 06:29 AM
There's also, of course, quickened dimension door that you could have the archmage use, if you need him to get away, but otherwise let the wish go through.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-31, 06:30 AM
Probably Contingent spells.
For example.

Or that robe he's wearing? Yeah, that's actually an awakened Cloaker familiar, buffed out and imbued with spellcasting. That runic circle he's standing in? Oh, it will invoke a Prismatic Sphere if he stops moving. That tatoo on his forehead? It summons a bunch of greater demons at his purely mental command.

Any archmage has precautions. Heck, Xykon had precautions against Vaarsuvius's scry-and-die attempt, and he's not known for having a great intelligence score.

Wings of Peace
2010-12-31, 06:31 AM
I'd let it work. A 9th level spell to set up a single enemy for death? That sounds fair to me.

Now then, should the Archmage be without magical defenses to keep him alive? Nay. If he's an Archmage he should probably have some contingent spells set up if for no other reason than to remove status ailments that would rob him of his most powerful ability, spellcasting.

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 06:31 AM
Actually, I was not being honest.

It's an NPC doing it. I avoided saying NPC because I figured the answer would be "he's your character, do what you want," which wouldn't be useful.

It is actually the Big Bad. And the Archmage had just created for her a ring of Wishes she had commissioned.

She's the sort of person who's not too powerful (used to be a powerful mage but sacrificed her power for the ability to sense where all wishing items in the multiverse is), but generally gets by on tricks and nonsense (in addition to being a high level thief, has a Bag of Holding full of various things).

So I suppose it would be an even greater show of her power for that to backfire, but then manage to succeed through another way.

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 06:34 AM
Despite this, using magic on an archmage is generally a bad idea. one staple use of contingency is to put the contingency "If I become immobilized, cast freedom of movement on me" and suddenly you disable a lot of potential problems, and any archmage worth his salt would know this sort of trick

Huh, freedom of movement works?
They might wear a Ring of Freedom of Movement. Never care about grapples, or anything that impedes movement. (If I'm a caster, this would be one of my top choices for rings)

You could try Maximized Shivering Touch. No save 18 Dex damage with just Touch Attack.

umbrapolaris
2010-12-31, 06:44 AM
a well prepared wizard is aware of that kind of situation and will always craft some contingent spells specially prepared against any kind of paralysis, deathly effect and situation, and anchor effects.

it is why a high wizard is almost unkillable unless his enemies found a way to inhibit his spellcasting capacity, any magical effect on him and contingent items.

it is what i do with my wizard, im under a contingent spell named "Elminster Evasion" that permit me to teleport to a prepared sanctuary with healing/restorative/magic dispelling contingent spells in case of loosing my arms , be mind-controlled, soulshifted, etc...

Earthwalker
2010-12-31, 06:56 AM
Can the person with the wishing ring, wish for a anti magic field to surround the arch mage ?

I am thinking no but thought I would ask.

umbrapolaris
2010-12-31, 07:05 AM
Can the person with the wishing ring, wish for a anti magic field to surround the archmage ?

depend the DM ! maybe with a short duration and drawbacks. a wish is never 100% beneficial ^^

in the Forgotten Realms setting , there is some "Dead Magic" areas which is the result of the battle of Godly Avatars.

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 07:27 AM
a wish is never 100% beneficial ^^


Well I try to avoid it being a screw over as long as some thought is put into it and it doesn't go far beyond the limitations listed.

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 07:30 AM
a wish is never 100% beneficial ^^



Well I try to avoid it being a screw over as long as some thought is put into it and it doesn't go far beyond the limitations listed.

Yes. You're playing 5k xp for it. If it always screws you, might as well not cast it.

Runestar
2010-12-31, 07:34 AM
Always ask yourself if there is some way of replicating your wish using a 8th lv or lower spell first. As a DM, I would assume the wish spell follows the path of least resistance (which in game terms, means it tries to fulfill the wish in the easiest and most straightforward manner).


Can the person with the wishing ring, wish for a anti magic field to surround the arch mage ?

I am thinking no but thought I would ask.

Yes, with caveats. Spell compendium has antimagic ray, which on a successful ranged touch, bypassing sr and failed will save, leaves the target unable to cast spells or SLAs (but eq is unaffected, and he can still use magic items).

Kurald Galain
2010-12-31, 07:38 AM
Always ask yourself if there is some way of replicating your wish using a 8th lv or lower spell first.

Power Word: Stun would do the trick.

Vistella
2010-12-31, 07:46 AM
considering limited wish allows the following:

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.
so for the normal wish maybe not a 100% success but maybe giving a -15 penalty on the hold attempt

Grumman
2010-12-31, 07:51 AM
Power Word: Stun would do the trick.
Stun does not let you CDG someone.

I'd allow one of two options: either use Wish to cast Power Word: Stun with all the usual effects, or treat it as something like a Heightened Reach Ghoul Touch (Fort save as for a Lvl 6 spell). Under no circumstances should he be able to wish for a no save, no to hit paralysis.

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 07:57 AM
As for "why not use a lower level spell besides Wish," well she probably does have quite a few useful scrolls but against an archmage such a thing would arguably be a half measure, and therefore wish is the only thing with any sort of power enough to work. Remember, she doesn't have any spellcasting power herself.

For those of you who follow Naruto, spoilers ahead:

Think of her as sort of like Madara in a way...in Naruto terms, she's given up jutsu in order to try to attain Izanagi.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-12-31, 08:02 AM
Well, in power level it's comparable to Greater Arcane Fusion -> Arcane Spellsurge + Rapid Ghoul Glyph, with the caveat that Arcane Spellsurge is dispelled immediately afterward, so I don't think it's that bad.

Because I'm remembering the rules horribly, that wouldn't actually work, but just a straight up Wish -> Ghoul Glyph would do the trick. Wish's casting time is listed as 1 standard action, independent of "See text". Scribe a Ghoul Gylph right in front of them. It goes off immediately; the target is paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds no save (SR yes). Fortitude save against smelling bad.

Runestar
2010-12-31, 08:06 AM
Stun does not let you CDG someone.

I'd allow one of two options: either use Wish to cast Power Word: Stun with all the usual effects, or treat it as something like a Heightened Reach Ghoul Touch (Fort save as for a Lvl 6 spell). Under no circumstances should he be able to wish for a no save, no to hit paralysis.

No, but the fighter could just as easily full-attack in place of a CDG, and should be able to deal enough damage to 1-shot the mage.

Though expecting the DM to know every spell in existence is ridiculous, I would put the onus on the player to suggest the spell in question to be replicated and provide all stats for it. Otherwise, I may just let it be treated as a heightened hold monster spell.

Aharon
2010-12-31, 08:39 AM
I think it is completely ok to use that wish. The PCs shouldn't encounter it at a level where it would be a major problem, though. Throwing it at PCs below 7th level, who won't have Freedom of Movement at hand, would be unfair.

Kylarra
2010-12-31, 11:56 AM
Frankly if the archmage is taking commisions for wish-level magic items, they should have precautions against it being used against them directly.

sreservoir
2010-12-31, 12:28 PM
it duplicates the effect of hold person with the +4 irresistable metamagic (Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide p87) applied, a 7th level spell using sor/wiz hold person.

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 12:40 PM
Yeah, I decided that the wish will be wasted, and another measure will be used to prevail.

Kylarra
2010-12-31, 12:48 PM
it duplicates the effect of hold person with the +4 irresistable metamagic (Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide p87) applied, a 7th level spell using sor/wiz hold person.Irresistible metamagic is unquestionably broken.

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 12:59 PM
Irresistible metamagic is unquestionably broken.

SoD just became No save, just Die.

Douglas
2010-12-31, 01:03 PM
it duplicates the effect of hold person with the +4 irresistable metamagic (Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide p87) applied, a 7th level spell using sor/wiz hold person.
Using a notoriously broken metamagic feat from a third party source is hardly a good way to argue for balance.

In general, removing the save from an effect that is balanced specifically by the fact that it has a save is Extremely Broken. Specifically for Wish, Wish can ... um ... force one reroll if the first save succeeds. And only if the enemy fails his save against the Wish itself. And that's when the Wish is not spending its power producing the effect itself. Forcing an auto-fail is pretty clearly beyond Wish's power.

It sounds like you're specifically looking for a way to explain to your players how NPC X killed NPC Y. I would advise against this particular method, along with any other method that succeeds automatically - any such method is practically begging your players to take that method and turn it around to use on your toughest boss fights. Additionally, an Archmage high enough level to craft such an item would have defenses against a great many things, and a simple direct Wish-kill without studying those defenses would probably fail outright due to a Contingency, Freedom of Movement, or some other emergency measure. Specifically as an Archmage, if this character took the SLA High Arcana then he could use his SLA even while paralyzed.

For a really believable story without handing your players an auto-kill technique, you should design a set of defenses for the Archmage that would defeat most attackers, including at the very least a spell (Teleport is the most generally useful) tied to Contingency, Mind Blank, a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and a few other long duration debuff immunities. Then have your villain character learn about these defenses, possibly through direct conversation (especially if the villain is a bluff/diplomacy master) or learning about how and why previous assassination attempts failed, then carefully negate or avoid each defense before striking.

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 01:18 PM
Hmm, I just had an idea...

Combined with the story of "she's known the guy for awhile and figured out some of his secrets," perhaps part of her strategy is to wear down his possible contingencies until she figures out what will actually work to kill him.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-31, 01:25 PM
I'd allow it.

And the archmage has a silenced teleport prepared. :smallamused:

Honestly, any mage who expects the possibility of combat someday (i.e., not just some peaceful crafter type living in town) who doesn't have at least one or more Silenced or Contingent Dimension Doors and/or Teleports once he reaches the level that he could cast them is just begging for eventual death. It is pathetically easy to take out mages with grapples and paralyzation effects, or even just Silence spells. Once a PC party realizes this and takes advantage of this fact, then they eventually must realize that the same can be done to them.

If the GM hasn't already determined that a given mage has a way of getting out of a jam like this, then let them have the victory. However, if the enemy mage doesn't have the Silent Spell or Sudden Silent Spell feats, who's to say that he hadn't prepared in some other way? Aside from lifesavers like Contingency or Elminster's Evasion, there are ways to plan ahead for violent death. The mage might have a phylactery. Perhaps killing him will just bring him back as a lich. Or maybe he's got a clone backup. Or an insurance policy that covers True Resurrection (or just a high priest who's a really good buddy).

Victory is sweet. But that victory might prove temporary...

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 01:51 PM
Yeah, it's alright if the archmage finds some slippery way to survive, the point is to show off the Big Bad's power.

More Naruto spoilers:

I am intending this scene to be as meaningful as in Naruto when we find out that Tobi is really Madara, even if the circumstances are different.

To clarify further, basically she goes from being a charming heroic sociopath to being revealed to the player, if not the character, as an unappeasably deranged crusader who will either bend reality to her will, or destroy it. That said, Xykon would accuse her of being another 'whiny evil but for a good cause' type. :tongue:

NichG
2010-12-31, 03:55 PM
If the villain is the planning sort and has access to a spellcasting minion, you could have it go something like this (taking only a single round):

Villain accepts ring, and says 'minion, bring the payment!'

The minion is in an AMF, and the payment contains an excessive number of (currently suppressed) glyphs/explosive runes/etc triggered spells that will go off once the AMF is removed. The mage notices the AMF at the last instant, snarls in betrayal, and throws a disjunction, causing the field to collapse and the spells inside to go off (since the AMF protects things inside it). At this point, either the mage is dead, or he could have survived via some contingency/etc, at which point he tries to teleport away and either makes it or runs into some natural environmental teleport blocker involved in where the villain planned the exchange to take place, a simple forbiddance or dimension lock, or even as a side effect of one of the exploding glyphs. Alarmed, he quickens a low level spell attempting to one-shot the villain (perhaps something like ray of stupidity or shivering ray), but this fails either because of a miss or because the numbers just aren't quite sufficient to do the job.

The villain then uses a wish off the ring to produce an antimagic field on, say, a cricket that is 5ft behind the caster, approaches to within 10ft, activates a belt of battle to get a full round action, takes a 5ft step, and full attacks the mage and kills him (or uses a reach weapon).

That way it doesn't look too much like fiat since the archmage had a good showing for himself. The main problem with this suggestion is that if the party is present for this, they will probably intervene before the villain has a chance to finish the guy, so it may not be a quick enough kill.

Edit: The Clone idea can make for an interesting plothook too, if the villain's access to wishes is going to be a major plot point. If the mage survived somehow, he might be able to give the party something that would break the enchantment on the ring. Its not RAW, but since a wizard can always dispel their own spells, it'd make sense that they'd also be better at breaking the enchantments on magic items of their own creation.

Douglas
2010-12-31, 05:53 PM
Yeah, it's alright if the archmage finds some slippery way to survive, the point is to show off the Big Bad's power.

More Naruto spoilers:

I am intending this scene to be as meaningful as in Naruto when we find out that Tobi is really Madara, even if the circumstances are different.

To clarify further, basically she goes from being a charming heroic sociopath to being revealed to the player, if not the character, as an unappeasably deranged crusader who will either bend reality to her will, or destroy it. That said, Xykon would accuse her of being another 'whiny evil but for a good cause' type. :tongue:

So, the PCs will be present when this happens? If so, you'd better be prepared for the party throwing the biggest monkey wrench you've ever seen into this plan.

Or is this something a bystander will tell them about later, or they watch through a scrying spell, or something? Or do you mean the players will find out about it OOC only?

Paseo H
2010-12-31, 06:04 PM
Probably OOC'ly. Like how video games sometimes show what the villains are doing.

Nero24200
2010-12-31, 06:14 PM
I think theres an easy way to determine if it's fair or not. If you pulled this trick on the PC (I.E, use wish to cast a Save or Suck effect without the save), would he accept it?

As a player, I wouldn't be happy if it was used on me, so as a DM I wouldn't allow it to be used by the PCs.

Dralnu
2010-12-31, 06:23 PM
I'd allow the Wish to work as intended. Then, assuming the archmage is high level and smart, which he likely is, I'd give him a back-up plan of either contingency or silent+stilled spells.

Personally, I'd go for silent+stilled spells. They're just classier than lame contingencies. I imagine an archmage frozen in some awkward pose, drooling a little from an agape mouth, zooming around with a silent+stilled fly spell and tossing out silent+stilled glitterdusts/fireballs/summon monsters. Hilarity!

Lysander
2010-12-31, 07:00 PM
The wish would not work, because Wish clearly specifies what happens when you use it to duplicate another spell:


Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

They're probably better off casting an offensive spell that has a good chance of killing the archmage, and then if the archmage makes their save using the wish to "undo misfortune" and make the archmage reroll that save.