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linebackeru
2010-12-31, 11:17 AM
I have an idea of capabilities I want for a character, but I'm not sure what class(es) will fit (3.5e):

-Arcane spellcaster: I'm mostly interested in transmutation, illusion and conjuration. The idea is to self-buff (with things like Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person) and possibly cast spells like Blur or Blink.

-Melee capability: proficiency with some assortment of weapons and armor. Light armor is fine.

-Decent hit points: Ideally d8 or better, but d6 might be ok.

-Workable combination: some mitigation against arcane spell failure chances while in armor

I've seen the Warmage class, but that uses mostly Evocation magic, not the type of magic I want.

I've also seen Hexblade, but that's essentially a fighter with a few spells, rather than a Wizard with lessened spell failure chances.

Is there anything out there that would fit?

Thanks.

Private-Prinny
2010-12-31, 11:22 AM
Have you looked at a Duskblade (PHBII)? They get 6th level spells, self-buffs, and can channel spells through their weapons.

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 11:25 AM
How's Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) Wizard? With 1 lvl fighter dip taking Armored Mage ACF (Complete Mage) to be able to cast in Light armor.

D6's, full BAB, nice class features.

Can Foc Spec (Trans) for fun.

Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Swiftblade ?/Abjurant Champion ?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-31, 11:29 AM
So essentially you want a gish?

Base classes sadly won't do much for your idea; but if you are open to Prestige classes, then is is much easier to your build your concept.

Suel Arcanamach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159617) A prestige class found in Complete Arcane, it has spells 1 through 5 from illusion, abjuration, transmutation, and divination from the wizard/sorc spell list. and it is Charisma based (the link is for a handbook)

The other way is to build a more traditional build, which involves a lot of multi classing and many prestige classes.


Sorcadin: Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellssword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 /Sacred Exorcist 8

Traditionatl Gish Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 /Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight

Edit: PrivatePrinny; Duskblades only get up to 5th level spells, and their spell list is quite lacking on the buffing department

Kobold-Bard
2010-12-31, 11:30 AM
Have you looked at a Duskblade (PHBII)? They get 6th level spells, self-buffs, and can channel spells through their weapons.

Unless you want to go the PrC heavy Gish route then Duskblade is definitely best.

If you want to go the PrC heavy route then:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 8 gives BAB+17 & a Wizard CL of 19, sucks hard at low levels but gives you the full range of Wizard spells as a backup to self-buffs.

Greenish
2010-12-31, 11:38 AM
If you want to go the PrC heavy route then:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 8 gives BAB+17 & a Wizard CL of 19, sucks hard at low levels but gives you the full range of Wizard spells as a backup to self-buffs.Where's Spellblade from?

I only know of the item by that name, and the CW PrC Spellsword, which you wouldn't qualify for.

Kobold-Bard
2010-12-31, 11:51 AM
Where's Spellblade from?

I only know of the item by that name, and the CW PrC Spellsword, which you wouldn't qualify for.

I meant spellsword, and why wouldn't you qualify?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-31, 11:57 AM
I guess greenish got confused and thought it required BAB +5 as most gishy prestige classes.

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 11:59 AM
It does require 4, which I don't think you have yet. Swap Abjurant Champion to the front, then yeah.

dextercorvia
2010-12-31, 12:01 PM
It does require 4, which I don't think you have yet. Swap Abjurant Champion to the front, then yeah.

Which requires BAB +5.

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 12:03 PM
Which requires BAB +5.

Huh. Then 2 Wiz lvls, or 1 fighter before you can take Spellsword

EDIT: Meh, confused 1/2 BAB. Wiz 6 is enough.

Kobold-Bard
2010-12-31, 12:03 PM
It does require 4, which I don't think you have yet. Swap Abjurant Champion to the front, then yeah.

Ahh, I knew something looked up there. I usually add a 6th Wizard level to get the BAB for Spellsword (technically three of those Wizard levels will be Master Specialist/Master Generalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139779) levels though).

CyMage
2010-12-31, 12:12 PM
How's Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) Wizard? With 1 lvl fighter dip taking Armored Mage ACF (Complete Mage) to be able to cast in Light armor.


The Armored Mage ACF isn't as good as it sounds. You need more Fighter levels to cast higher spells in armour, which makes you lose more caster levels...

2xMachina
2010-12-31, 12:16 PM
The Armored Mage ACF isn't as good as it sounds. You need more Fighter levels to cast higher spells in armour, which makes you lose more caster levels...

Damn it, I missed the last line.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-31, 01:16 PM
How's Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) Wizard? With 1 lvl fighter dip taking Armored Mage ACF (Complete Mage) to be able to cast in Light armor.

D6's, full BAB, nice class features.

Can Foc Spec (Trans) for fun.

Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Swiftblade ?/Abjurant Champion ?

The Armored Mage ACF is actually pretty terrible in so much that it only lets you cast spells of I think Fighter level or less without the ASF. So, in this case: 1st level spells.

Honestly, there are a bunch of guides to playing a Gish out there.

I'm a big fan of Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 using either some flavor of elf, kobold or Otherwordly to qualify for Swiftblade.

Bang!
2010-12-31, 01:50 PM
Battle Sorcerer 20 works fine if your group doesn't like all the dips involved in stronger/more intensive builds. Abjurant Champion and Sacred Exorcist levels don't hurt either.

Duskblade, Bard and Mystic Ranger should also be able to fit the bill.

You could tweak the Hexblade a bit. If you just tacked on the Bard's casting progression, it still wouldn't match the Bard in terms of power or versatility. Maybe drop the HP or BA a step, if your group doesn't like that kind of handout.

Fighter 2/Focused Transmuter 6/Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) X is pretty cool. Maybe add Abjurant Champion levels if they won't get you funny looks.

Psyren
2010-12-31, 03:25 PM
Battle Sorcerer 20 works fine

Ye gods, no! At least take something with class features...

Crow
2010-12-31, 03:30 PM
Ye gods, no! At least take something with class features...

Battle Sorcerer works fine for what the OP wants. I played one from level 1 to 25. The class is fine as is.

Psyren
2010-12-31, 03:35 PM
Battle Sorcerer works fine for what the OP wants. I played one from level 1 to 25. The class is fine as is.

It also maxes out at +15 BAB, i.e. only 3 attacks, and doesn't have BAB-increasing spells like Divine Power. +16 BAB is the standard gish metric. Then you throw in proficiency with only one martial weapon, light armor only, and -10 spells known across your career...

I'm not saying BS 20 is unplayable in a vacuum, but compared to other gish options it falls short.

Forged Fury
2010-12-31, 03:40 PM
It also maxes out at +15 BAB, i.e. only 3 attacks, and doesn't have BAB-increasing spells like Divine Power. +16 BAB is the standard gish metric. Then you throw in proficiency with only one martial weapon, light armor only, and -10 spells known across your career...

I'm not saying BS 20 is unplayable in a vacuum, but compared to other gish options it falls short.I'm playing one in the 5-8 range right now and enjoy it. As long as the OP isn't planning on playing above 10th-12th level or so, it should be okay. He'd get most of the good melee self-buffs and not be totally hamstrung on itierative attacks.

Crow
2010-12-31, 03:45 PM
I'm playing one in the 5-8 range right now and enjoy it. As long as the OP isn't planning on playing above 10th-12th level or so, it should be okay. He'd get most of the good melee self-buffs and not be totally hamstrung on itierative attacks.

Seriously. It's an enjoyable class.

The board dogma around here is stifling.

linebackeru
2010-12-31, 03:52 PM
Thanks for the good discussion. Not sure what "Gish" is, but it sounds like what I'm after.

I don't have anything against multiple PrC's, but since I'm playing this from level 1 up, I'd rather have the flavor of the abilities early on. I think Duskblade will do it.

Urpriest
2010-12-31, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the good discussion. Not sure what "Gish" is, but it sounds like what I'm after.

I don't have anything against multiple PrC's, but since I'm playing this from level 1 up, I'd rather have the flavor of the abilities early on. I think Duskblade will do it.

Gish is a term for a spellcasting meleer. It comes from a term for Githyanki Fighter/Wizards.

Bang!
2010-12-31, 04:09 PM
I'm not saying BS 20 is unplayable in a vacuum, but compared to other gish options it falls short.
It has the Polymorph line and Wraithstrike, attained at the normal Sorcerer rate. I've honestly never seen a gish that's needed more than that.

There's nothing stopping a BS from PrCing into Abjurant Champion either, if the extra attack and lack of class features really bothers you (but with easily-obtained natural weapons, I'm not sure why it should).

I'm not claiming it's the best Gish, but it's easy, playable from level 1, and unlikely to prompt min-maxing complaints.

Dralnu
2010-12-31, 06:55 PM
Duskblade really is the most elegant answer to playing an arcane melee combatant imo. It's a base class that's great all the way through. No muss no fuss.

There are, of course, other options. Swiftblade is one of them, as other people mentioned. There's also Sorcadin, which meshes together Paladin and Sorcerer for CHA synergy before moving on to the usual gish PrCs like Abjurant Champion.

Keep in mind that some gishes take more levels until they shine than others. Something like Duskblade is great starting at level 1. Sorcadin on the other hand really needs a few levels before it starts getting good.

For something a little different than the other suggestions, if you want to be fancy you could try out my TWF'ing arcane gish that I made for the latest iron chef over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9945922&postcount=216). Duskblade 5 / Swordsage 2 / Assassin 9 / Abjurant Champion 4, starts off strong and piles on the damage until it caps off with Dancing Mongoose.

Psyren
2010-12-31, 07:30 PM
Seriously. It's an enjoyable class.

The board dogma around here is stifling.

You could try, you know, addressing my points instead of dismissing them as "board dogma."


There's nothing stopping a BS from PrCing into Abjurant Champion either

But it wouldn't be a BS 20 then would it? :smallsigh:

woodenbandman
2010-12-31, 07:36 PM
seriously just play a battle sorceror. Don't be afraid because people tell you how suboptimal it is because it "only" learns 3 9th level spells, because then you can "only" cast shapechange 6 times per day and you "only" etc etc.

Bang!
2010-12-31, 07:58 PM
You could try, you know, addressing my points instead of dismissing them as "board dogma."
Both your points are valid, but not crippling. Most of the class features omitted are things like Spellsword's "ignore %ACF," which the BS already replicats or Sacred Exorcist's low DC purge of a niche condition. Iterative attacks don't matter much when a character is generating extra attacks via shapeshifting.

The Battle Sorcerer does have an edge over other popular gishes (namely the sorcadin) in its spell progression - it casts Alter Self when the Sorcadin casts Enlarge, it casts shapechange when the sorcadin casts Veil of Undeath. With Kobold shenanigans, BS trounces most non-Beholder gishes in terms of spell advancement rate.

Past about level 14, it starts to fall meaningfully behind other sorcerer gishes in terms of low level spells known, and it never matches the versatility of wizard, but it has its niche.

But it wouldn't be a BS 20 then would it?
My mistake. I thought you were complaining about the Battle Sorcerer base, which is a popular target of forum ridicule. In that case, you're right. PrCing out of BS into something like AC or SE would be a good choice, especially with PHB2's spell retraining options. The existence of other options doesn't make the Battle Sorcerer somehow cease to meet the OP's requests, though.

@ linebackeru:
Sorry for the tangent. Duskblade is a good choice, and probably the best for low level campaigns. Good luck!

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-31, 08:14 PM
Battle Sorcerer works fine for what the OP wants. I played one from level 1 to 25. The class is fine as is.

The issue with Battle Sorcerer is that, as a sorcerer your starved for spells: as a battle sorcerer you're starved for more more spells known.

Most gishes get off the ground at about 6th-8th level. Admittedly, most gish-sorcerers will burn two levels of casting on Paladin levels, but nothing stopping a Battle Sorcerer from doing the same. The first 3rd level spell a Sorcadin would learn would probably be either Haste, Girallon's Blessing, or Displacement. A Battle Sorcerer grabs the second of those spells at Effective sorcerer spell casting level 9th, compared to the other guy's 7th. That's... that's a problem.

I love haste as much as the next guy, but it being my only spell for that long is a pain and it remains forever, even when you prestige class out.


seriously just play a battle sorceror. Don't be afraid because people tell you how suboptimal it is because it "only" learns 3 9th level spells, because then you can "only" cast shapechange 6 times per day and you "only" etc etc.

Er.. we're not talking endgame here. We're talking every. single. level. If you're starting from one, you eat pains then for little gain and they stay with you, even if you go into Abjurant Champion or Sacred Exorcist, both Sorcerer-Gish standards.

Runestar
2010-12-31, 08:41 PM
Arcane swordsage. Once you figure out just how it is supposed to work. :smallamused:

Tvtyrant
2010-12-31, 08:50 PM
I got the perfect method for you. You go Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hieorphant. Then you simply turn into Mr. Bearsington and cast fireball from your bears mouth. You are now capable of arcane casting and melee combat.

Waker
2011-01-01, 02:19 AM
Well, if you are open to feats from Dragon, there is a simple enough solution.
Dragon 355 has an alternate Fighter feat called Armored Savant (replaces 1st level Fighter feat) that amongst other things decreases the arcane spell failure of armor by half. 5 levels of Spellsword would get you 20% ignored spell failure at the cost of 2 spellcaster levels, making you into a wizard who could wear fullplate with no arcane spell failure (although if you found a special armor quality, I'm sure you could avoid a level or two of Spellsword.)

End result would be Fighter 1/Wizard 14/Spellsword 5 with an effective spellcasting level of 17.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-01, 02:29 AM
Well, if you are open to feats from Dragon, there is a simple enough solution.
Dragon 355 has an alternate Fighter feat called Armored Savant (replaces 1st level Fighter feat) that amongst other things decreases the arcane spell failure of armor by half. 5 levels of Spellsword would get you 20% ignored spell failure at the cost of 2 spellcaster levels, making you into a wizard who could wear fullplate with no arcane spell failure (although if you found a special armor quality, I'm sure you could avoid a level or two of Spellsword.)

End result would be Fighter 1/Wizard 14/Spellsword 5 with an effective spellcasting level of 17.

It's honestly often easier to save time, money, and levels and instead go Abjurant Champion using Greater Luminous Armor for what amounts to +5 Full-plate with no penalties at all for a 4th level spell slot a day.

Waker
2011-01-01, 03:05 AM
It's honestly often easier to save time, money, and levels and instead go Abjurant Champion using Greater Luminous Armor for what amounts to +5 Full-plate with no penalties at all for a 4th level spell slot a day.
That is quite a handy spell. The only benefit my path would give is that the armor worn could be enhanced further with some armor qualities, but for simplicities sake you do win.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-01, 05:03 AM
That is quite a handy spell. The only benefit my path would give is that the armor worn could be enhanced further with some armor qualities, but for simplicities sake you do win.

Well, all the good enhancements would probably be on some sort of floating +1 darkwood/mithral shield as the Shield spell gets similar treatment from Abjurant Champion.:smallcool:

gorfnab
2011-01-01, 05:33 AM
I like Bard based Gish builds.
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 4/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 4/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 4/ Jade Phoenix Mage 4
Bard 8/ Barbarain (CC Lion Totem) 1/ Knight Phantom 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Knight Phantom 9
Bard 8 (with Militia feat)/ Knight Phantom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Knight Phantom 8
Bard 8/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Eldritch Knight 8

All of the above builds have BAB 16+ and 9th level spells thanks to Sublime Chord. Going Bard for a base class sets you up with spellcasting in light armor, decent skills, ample buff spells, some healing spells, and Inspire Courage buffing (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0).

linebackeru
2011-01-01, 09:48 AM
I just looked up Luminous Armor; that seems like quite a useful spell. Question for the group: There's a feat in Libris Mortis called "Sacred Vitality", which allows anyone with ability to turn undead to spend a turn attempt in order to be immune to ability damage for 1 minute.

Would you allow a player to invoke this feat, and then cast Luminous Armor? Since the spell component for Luminous Armor is a "Sacrifice", it would seem that this is against the spirit of the rules. But it doesn't seem explicitly illegal.

Waker
2011-01-01, 10:08 AM
I had this idea after getting a bit of sleep. Using the same build I mentioned before, add the Twilight quality to armor (-10% arcane failure) a lvl 5 Spellsword would have an extra 5% ignored spell failure that could let you equip a light shield. In addition to the obvious benefits of having a shield (1 AC + 5 enhancement bonus/qualities) you could take Shielded Casting (Races of Stone) which makes your spellcasting not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Bang!
2011-01-01, 10:21 AM
Er.. we're not talking endgame here. We're talking every. single. level. If you're starting from one, you eat pains then for little gain and they stay with you, even if you go into Abjurant Champion or Sacred Exorcist, both Sorcerer-Gish standards.
Alternatives to Battle Sorcerer generally involve lost caster levels, which means the BS often has more spells known than other options. The Sorcadin, for instance (a gish based off a framework of Paladin 2/Socerer 4), has fewer spells known until level 12 (and at that point, it has an extra cantrip and level 1 spell versus the BS's level 6 spell).

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-01, 11:44 AM
I just looked up Luminous Armor; that seems like quite a useful spell. Question for the group: There's a feat in Libris Mortis called "Sacred Vitality", which allows anyone with ability to turn undead to spend a turn attempt in order to be immune to ability damage for 1 minute.

Would you allow a player to invoke this feat, and then cast Luminous Armor? Since the spell component for Luminous Armor is a "Sacrifice", it would seem that this is against the spirit of the rules. But it doesn't seem explicitly illegal.

The fun fact about "Sacrifice" costs is that they come at the end of the duration, not at the start, so it's usually a matter of telling someone else to hit you with a wand of lesser restoration. That or you can just keep extending the duration to the point where, when someone finally does dispel it you hit 0 strength.

The blurb on sacrifice components at the start of the spell section in BoED might have a blank cover on dodging the cost to pay the sacrifice components, but I'm not sure.


Alternatives to Battle Sorcerer generally involve lost caster levels, which means the BS often has more spells known than other options. The Sorcadin, for instance (a gish based off a framework of Paladin 2/Socerer 4), has fewer spells known until level 12 (and at that point, it has an extra cantrip and level 1 spell versus the BS's level 6 spell).

However, that second level of Paladin nets you Cha to all saves, the cost of a 4th level spell that only applies for 1d4 rounds. Admittedly, there's a higher start up cost to going Sorcadin, but it actually benefits from multiclassing, and, once it starts getting those precious few spells known, it gets them at the affordable rate of "new levels of spells acquired" dings and then again on the ding right after that, no waiting around an extra 2 levels for that second Xth level spell known.

Prime32
2011-01-01, 01:01 PM
One big issue with battle sorcerer is that levels in PrCs get all the drawbacks (fewer spells) and none of the benefits (better BAB/hp).

linebackeru
2011-01-01, 03:22 PM
The blurb on sacrifice components at the start of the spell section in BoED might have a blank cover on dodging the cost to pay the sacrifice components, but I'm not sure.


It doesn't address that in terms of game mechanics, but it does say that the spell is "powered by the sacrifice".

In this case I'm the DM and I'm trying to decide whether to point out this tactic to the party's cleric. My wife pointed out that he'd be burning a feat for this purpose is a fairly high price, but I'm thinking that a 2nd level spell that gives essentially +9 AC in melee is too good to not have a tradeoff.

2xMachina
2011-01-01, 03:29 PM
It doesn't address that in terms of game mechanics, but it does say that the spell is "powered by the sacrifice".

In this case I'm the DM and I'm trying to decide whether to point out this tactic to the party's cleric. My wife pointed out that he'd be burning a feat for this purpose is a fairly high price, but I'm thinking that a 2nd level spell that gives essentially +9 AC in melee is too good to not have a tradeoff.

It just costs a Clr 2 spell, Lesser Restoration.

Forged Fury
2011-01-02, 10:41 AM
My wife pointed out that he'd be burning a feat for this purpose is a fairly high price, but I'm thinking that a 2nd level spell that gives essentially +9 AC in melee is too good to not have a tradeoff.
Well, it's not like the feat doesn't have really nice uses outside of this particular situation. Being immune to ability damage for 10 rounds can be very useful at times. If the feat only allowed you to ignore self-inflicted ability damage, then that would be a different story.

I wouldn't allow the spell to be cast without the sacrifice being made. It's one of the few things that keeps those spells in balance.

Benly
2011-01-02, 11:11 AM
Stalwart Sorcerer (from Complete Mage) is a good alternative to Battle Sorcerer. You get extra HP, a martial WP and weapon focus, and lose one spell known from your highest level (you get the spell known back as soon as you get access to a higher level, so it really is only one spell lost at any time). I had a pretty good Stalwart Sorcerer/Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion at one point; at low levels you're a sorc who can buff up with Mage Armor and Alter Self and go in to mix it up or just cast spells if you feel like it, and at high levels you're a tornado of reaping death with Slippers of Battledancing. My version dual-wielded Prismatic Burst kukris for MAXIMUM RAINBOW but it's pretty adaptable. You won't be nearly as powerful at the high end as a full-on "pure" sorcerer would, but you'll have a lot of fun in melee.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-02, 11:42 AM
Well, it's not like the feat doesn't have really nice uses outside of this particular situation. Being immune to ability damage for 10 rounds can be very useful at times. If the feat only allowed you to ignore self-inflicted ability damage, then that would be a different story.

I wouldn't allow the spell to be cast without the sacrifice being made. It's one of the few things that keeps those spells in balance.

Again, note that the sacrifice happens after the spell finishes. If you keep extending the duration of Greater Luminous Armor via more castings, you won't take any of the strength damage from all of those castings until you either stop or it gets dispelled.

randomhero00
2011-01-02, 02:09 PM
A lot of good suggestions. So I'll give a poor one. Look at the swordsage from 4e and maybe try a backwards conversion homebrew. They're a really neat class that teleports a lot.

Kobold-Bard
2011-01-02, 02:15 PM
A lot of good suggestions. So I'll give a poor one. Look at the swordsage from 4e and maybe try a backwards conversion homebrew. They're a really neat class that teleports a lot.

Don't play 4e so I don't know their powers, but maybe Duskblade & Shape Soulmeld [Blink Shirt] feat?

linebackeru
2011-01-02, 02:36 PM
Actually, now I'm thinking

Wizard 6
Fighter 1
Abjurant Champion 5
Eldritch Knight 8

I need the level of Fighter to qualify for Eldritch Knight, which I can then take to increase my BAB and qualify more quickly for Abjurant Champion than I would if I went straight Wizard. This will put me back by two levels of spellcasting, but keeps open the entire list of Wizard spells.

Kobold-Bard
2011-01-02, 02:42 PM
Actually, now I'm thinking

Wizard 6
Fighter 1
Abjurant Champion 5
Eldritch Knight 8

I need the level of Fighter to qualify for Eldritch Knight, which I can then take to increase my BAB and qualify more quickly for Abjurant Champion than I would if I went straight Wizard. This will put me back by two levels of spellcasting, but keeps open the entire list of Wizard spells.

Take Knight Phantom over Eldritch Knight, they're the same class except the Phantom gets some class features.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-02, 03:06 PM
Best part of Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)? it is just as free as the eldritch knight.

Atheon
2011-01-02, 03:09 PM
you could go 5 Sorcerer/3 Duskblade/5 Abjurant Champion/and take the rest in Duskblade

tons of spells, lots of buffs to choose from, take armored mage, somatic weaponry, and shielded casting and start bashing.

linebackeru
2011-01-02, 03:18 PM
Take Knight Phantom over Eldritch Knight, they're the same class except the Phantom gets some class features.

You're right, that's far better than EK.

Greenish
2011-01-02, 04:28 PM
You're right, that's far better than EK.Well, it costs a feat to enter, and doesn't grant a bonus feat. For a sorcerer, it also eats a spell known.

Keld Denar
2011-01-02, 04:39 PM
Yea, most of the knight phantom abilities are replicatable by spells. The two feats burned over eldritch knight are totally not worth it. Those are feats you could spend on useful things like minor shapeshift or arcane strike or other great gishy feats.