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Frozen_Feet
2010-12-31, 11:48 AM
You know, the type where you prepare a spell in the morning, use it during the day and *poof*, it's gone.

I've seen complaints about how this is stupid or unintuitive resurge every once in a while, from the day I was introduced to D&D. However, there should be fluff explanations that cause the mechanic to make Perfect Sense (tm). But what are they, and what setting actually use anything of the sort?

One explanation I can think of is Spells as spiritual contracts. This would work especially for Divine casters such Clerics and Druids. It works best if a setting is animistic, with every object and natural law having a spirit of its own that can be contacted and negotiated with. During the morning, when preparing spells, the caster reaches out to these spirits and effectively makes a job contract with them, either using his own spiritual authority or that of his Gods' to bargain services from them.

This explains why the caster can only use limited amount of magic per day, why he can't just tap into "unused reserves" to do some extra and why some spells can qualify as [Good] and [Evil] enough (etc.) to cause alignment chance despite of what they're used for. For the first two, the answer is that the caster isn't really using his own power, but that of commanded spirits - a deal's a deal, once a spirit has done its job, it won't be coming back; you only get what you asked for. For the last, it's because the caster is actively dealing with forces representative of such forces.

Supernatural and Spell-like abilities, Reserve feats (etc.) as well spontaneous casting, can be explained with the character partly being a spirit himself, or alternatively, by them having some kind of a patron spirit with whom they have a more longer-lasting deal with.

Researching spells is of course seeking knowledge of or communing with previously unknown tricks. Meta-magic would be persuading the spirits to do something they're uncomfortable with or coudln't think of themselves.

Bonus spells for Int-based casters would be explained as achieving extra knowledge of the spiritual world and finding more spirits to work with; Bonus spells from Wisdom would be explained with the character being more attuned to and observant about the natural spirits, as well as commanding greater spiritual authority due to his heightened senses. Bonus spells from Charisma or Appearance would be explained with spirits finding a character especially alluring and coming to swoon over him willingly; alternatively, in case of Evil characters especially, the spirits (and by extension, world itself) could be so terrified of the character that they obey his orders from simple fear. New spells from simple advancement would be due to increase of the character's spiritual authority in the eyes of the spirits.

Even grimmer variation would be one where the Caster uses part of his own soul to temporarily give life to a natural law - and then uses the argument "I created you, thus you must obey me" to coerce a spirit to do something that will, in the end, cost it its granted life. This'd also explain why spells are finite (the spell dies when used, and there are only so many suitable natural laws to awaken...), and maybe also material components and focuses, and XP costs (you need a particular object to invoke right sort of a natural law, you're using part of your own life-force).

Another explanation would be Spells as Machinery. The tapestry of the universe is akin to a big clock-work; making it do what you want requires willfull tinkering with it. These processes are so complex they simply can't be done on the fly - the "spell" uttered is simply a trigger. Alternatively, like in the case of Power Words, the spell is just a single word, but natural laws pose a limit on how often such power can be invoked - the caster is effectively pressing a pre-programmed switch that has the desired effect only once in a given timespan (ie., you can't empty the same pool twice unless it's refilled in between.)

Naturally, this sort of explanation makes best sense for Arcane casters, such as Wizards. Note that it isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with the animistic world-view of the previous version - indeed, the difference between Divine and Arcane magic might be whether the caster handles (or is even capable of perceiving) the universe as "alive".

Again, this explains why the caster can only use limited amount of magic per day, why he can't just tap into "unused reserves" to do some extra and why some spells can qualify as [Good] and [Evil] enough (etc.) to cause alignment chance despite of what they're used for. For the first two, the reason is that while the caster is using his own expertise to ready, use and maybe even make the spell, he's still building a construct of limited scope. An analogy would be building, loading and firing a gun - even if you have the gun ready, you need ammo, and if your making your own ammo from limited resources, you won't always have as many as you want or need. The last question would be explained with the actions required to ready and use a spell - maybe jury-rigging the firmament to Create Undead requires you to effectively murder babies in their sleep.

Supernatural and Spell-like abilities, Reserve feats (etc.) as well spontaneous casting, can be explained with the character having intuitive understanding of how to use or exploit some parts of the machinery; alternatively, like in the case of Reserve Feats, the caster has taken time to alter his own metaphysical composition to turn himself to a (sort of) perpetual motion machine.

Researching spells can naturally be explained with caster seeking new knowledge of how to tinker with the machinery.

Bonus spells from Int can be explained with similar hoarding of knowledge. Charisma is a bit trickier; for the explanation to work, you have to define Charisma partially as a person's ability to cause an impression on the machinery, a sort of "Spiritual Pressure" if you will. The implication is that a Cha-based caster is effectively taking a big whopping hammer to the clockwork and smashing a part of it to pieces to achieve what he wants, untill he's hit the machine so many times it seizes to work. New spells from simply gaining levels is due to the character's knowledge and ability to reach the machinery improving; or, you could say that by messing around with it, the caster slowly becomes a part of it, which also affects his understanding and ability to influence it.

Alleran
2010-12-31, 12:37 PM
I normally choose to interpret a "memorised spell" as that being the sigil of a spell transferred into a mind and containing (through the process of memorisation) trapped power drawn from the world around (such as the Weave in FR). By unlocking the sigil/sequence and releasing the stored power, the spell is cast and its power unleashed. It thereafter needs to be re-memorised in order to gain the power necessary to cast the spell again. A wizard can only store so much power in their mind, and certain spells have more inherent power to them than others (i.e. a Wish spell as opposed to a Fireball). This leads to the Vancian casting.

Salbazier
2010-12-31, 12:38 PM
Cool. This makes Vancian preparation thing more sesible. Especially the Spiritual contrat thing. That's I can totally imagined.

Another flavor: What if preparing spels is like making a scroll or potion? Using simple materials nad the result is carried in the spell component pouch (deliberately ignoring for now what can be happened to aid pouch) or other places (accessories etc). Casting a spell is actually just using this sort of spell-trigger items. Alternatively, it uses the caster's the own body (and/or spirit) as material and the spell is imprinted within his body. Because the spellcrafting is very personalized (whether or not it is imprinted in the body) it is impossible for other to use them.

It just that a caster have limited spirit/mana/whatever to fuel this costless spellcrafting, so if they want more they need special materials to add to heir spirit or creating emulation of the caster's body for the spell to be imprinted to and not all casters can do it (thus Scribe scroll ect).

Foryn Gilnith
2010-12-31, 12:43 PM
While I never had a problem with Vancian casting and am therefore incapable of judging the efficiacy of this system as a solution to explain Vancian casting, I can safely say that these would be fairly nice magical fluff systems.

Crow
2010-12-31, 12:55 PM
It's pretty damn simple. You're not memorizing anything. You are casting most of the spell ahead of time, so that you may finish it (and unleash it) later.

Defiant
2010-12-31, 01:04 PM
It's pretty damn simple. You're not memorizing anything. You are casting most of the spell ahead of time, so that you may finish it (and unleash it) later.

Exactly. Those 15 minutes you spend in the morning? You're casting the spells. All you need to do is finish them. Your mind can only hold so many 99% completed spells, though...

Psyx
2010-12-31, 01:55 PM
Another solution is to read some Vance, of course. Discworld also describes Vancian casting a couple of times.

Prime32
2010-12-31, 02:22 PM
It's pretty damn simple. You're not memorizing anything. You are casting most of the spell ahead of time, so that you may finish it (and unleash it) later.Which is why power word kill takes up nine pages. The trigger is one word.

Godskook
2010-12-31, 03:06 PM
I think of Vancian casting much like a black powder rifle. No prep time = worthless. Spontaneous casters are more intuitive, and thus can 'load' their 'bullets' on the fly, provided they have refreshed their supplies. Prepared casters require time to actually 'pre-load' their 'bullets'.

JonestheSpy
2010-12-31, 03:20 PM
Another solution is to read some Vance, of course. Discworld also describes Vancian casting a couple of times.

Heresy, sir! Damned heresy!

Come on, it's not like The Dying Earth is a fantasy masterpiece that all fans of the genre should know or anything.

Crow
2010-12-31, 03:27 PM
Heresy, sir! Damned heresy!

Come on, it's not like The Dying Earth is a fantasy masterpiece that all fans of the genre should know or anything.

Well Vancian casting as described in his books is remarkably similar to what the OP called "spiritual contracts".

Salbazier
2010-12-31, 04:02 PM
Well Vancian casting as described in his books is remarkably similar to what the OP called "spiritual contracts".

I thought that was something-like-scientific formula or something like that (I never read Vance)

JonestheSpy
2010-12-31, 04:03 PM
You think? That's not the impression i get from Vance at all.

In The Dying Earth and other books in the same setting, spells are formulas of such power that even an experienced wizard can hold a few of them in their brain at one time, and can't be remembered once used. Though I do recall that in some of his later works Vance has his wizards employ/enslave other magical beings that actually cause the desired effect.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-31, 04:03 PM
For prepared spellcasters, supposedly there's a line somewhere about their preparations for memorization really being most of the casting, what they do later in the day is just finishing the spell. Or maybe someone made it up and I though it sounded good enough to be official. :smallconfused:


Edit: Ninja'd way up the thread, guess that's what I get for skimming. :smallsmile:

WarKitty
2010-12-31, 04:11 PM
It's pretty damn simple. You're not memorizing anything. You are casting most of the spell ahead of time, so that you may finish it (and unleash it) later.

And some spellcasters have learned a formula that they can finish multiple different ways. Hence why they still need to rest to get spells back.

kieza
2010-12-31, 04:53 PM
The fluff that I used when I ran 3.5 was that there were lots and lots of little "elementary" spells, which were easy to use but had little effect. The elementary "lightning" spell produced a shock roughly equivalent to what you get from wearing wool socks on shag carpet.

What casters did with these elementary spells was set up, at the start of the day, a big series of them, "balanced" against each other so that a slight disturbance would cause them to come "crashing down," producing a desired effect. Then, when they cast it, they just used one elementary spell to set off the others.

Orzel
2010-12-31, 06:34 PM
I always when with the "crazy long complated formula and numbers writen in a crazy sciencific language". Basically spells come from a complex series of events (movements, sounds, and images) that do not happen naturally. When preparing, a caster remembers this sounds, movements, etc and implants them in their mind. When casting, the caster recalls all this seemingly meaningless nonsense, preformed the nonsense, and crazy stuff happens.

The reason casters forget is that they have to remember hundreds of items at once, in order, with a small time restraint. Its near imposisble to remember and recall all that crazy normally. Amd if you remember it, you. Most quickly forget it or your brain will be overloaded. Therfore most people need tricks to compact and unpack the info (either through academics, gentics, or divinity). And even with a trick, a brain can only hold so many packets of info.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-31, 06:51 PM
There's any number of possible explanations. Here's one:


For the most part, Wizard's can't touch magic directly. Sure, they can do a few things every here and there, and they can apply mystic energy.... but mostly, they're stuck powering the awkward "magical circuitry" which is their spellbook. Apply energy here, here, and here for fifteen minutes, putting a variance in the energy then to control certain options, and the painted "circuits" manipulate the energies into an energy packet which can then be picked up and maintained with almost no effort. In a scroll, the energy packet is tied to the parchment; the spellcraft roll to copy represents figuring out how that particular packet of energy was shaped; the spellcraft roll to familiarize yourself with it for later casting represents tracking down which tabs for triggering are appropriate; the caster level check for activating a scroll with a caster level higher than yours represents seeing if you can manage the force needed to activate the stored spell. When using a borrowed spellbook, the Spellcraft check represents tracking down where to apply energy properly (they don't come with instructions) and how to pick up the resultant packet. The Wizard doesn't so much cast a spell as build and invoke one. It's something he picks up and uses, not something that's a part of him. This explanation also covers why it takes a 20th level specialist Wizard with in excess of fifty spell slots and 227.5 spell levels (counting 0th level spells as half a level) a full fifteen minutes to prepare a cantrip in an empty slot; fifteen minutes is the minimum needed to run and retrieve a "spell program"; it's just that the Wizard is capable of running more than one such at a time, so he can run (prepare) his fifty spells in an hour. As a bonus, this explains why scribing a spell into a spellbook is expensive - the wizard is painting magical circuitry onto the pages... possibly using things like gold and platinum directly.

A Sorcerer's magic is virtually a part of him. He touches it directly and shapes it through raw mystic force. Like most cases of the biological vs. the mechanical, it's a lot more efficient; the spell a Wizard takes fifteen minutes to put together via his spellbook, a Sorcerer sets up in one standard action. The downside, though, is that it's a lot less flexible. He can only put his impromptu packets together in so many ways, as he has to remember them all personally (they are partially instinctive, but do require practice and experimentation). He can do it more often, though, as he only has to gather a pool of energy, there's less maintenance involved in holding an energy pool together than there is in trickle-charging a bunch of spell packets.

The bard constructs his spells on the fly, similar to how a Sorcerer does. But in the Bard's case, he's using verbal memory tricks to remind himself of exactly how the spell goes, in a musically "learned" fashion, rather than drawing on instinct. He's got a lot of other things to focus on, though, and doesn't have quite the energy to apply to packet-making as the Wizard or Sorcerer.

A Divine spellcaster gets these packets handed down pre-made; the Cleric need only invoke them (Causes, if permitted, are [quasi-]deities under this Theory of Magic; perhaps Causes are what the deities were originally born of, or there's an awful lot of deities out there and you don't actually need a deity's name to pray to one [and thus a Cause cleric is actually getting spells granted by a deity who's name he doesn't know] - it is technically possible for a Cleric to have no ranks in Knowledge(Religion), after all - or whatever).

The verbal and somatic components of spells are not all the same - that's why you need a Spellcraft check to identify a spell as it's being cast. Each Wizard sets up a slightly different trigger mechanism - and, indeed, sets up slightly different trigger mechanisms even for copies of the same spell, so he doesn't fumble two spells trying to supply the right bit of extra push to the same triggers and coming up short (the Quicken Spell metamagic feat partially revolves around arranging for less "push" and redundant triggers). Much of the Spellcraft check to identify a spell on the fly is involved in tracking the energies as they come into play in order to predict the final result; the energy packet has something of an effect on the outside world while it's still being given that final push.

Spellcasters need the material and focus components because some energy packets require a pattern to draw off of; there's a little more information needed to finish the effect than can be easily contained in the energy packet (in the case of "complex" material or focus components, such as a live spider or a cocoon; Eschew Materials alleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more info into the spell); others require something physical for a slight boost in energy or focus (for "simple" components like the copper coin for Detect Thoughts or the copper wire for Sending; Eschew Materials alleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more force or focus into the spell). Sorcerers still need them because sometimes, there's just too much to remember, or some of it really does need to be channeled outside the body, for whatever reason. Other components are either a source of energy to power certain portions of the spell that are only quasi-magical in and of themselves, a bribe of sorts to certain forces,
or even a form of insulation against backlash. A divine caster avoids the need for most such trappings with help from above... but there are limits to what they can be bothered to do for their followers.

Frozen_Feet
2010-12-31, 07:07 PM
It's pretty damn simple. You're not memorizing anything. You are casting most of the spell ahead of time, so that you may finish it (and unleash it) later.


Exactly. Those 15 minutes you spend in the morning? You're casting the spells. All you need to do is finish them. Your mind can only hold so many 99% completed spells, though...

Ah, but that's only telling what is happening, not why. :smallwink: What I attempted to in the previous post was to tie all nuances of D&D magic together and provide setting elements that would necessitate and explain why casters do things this particular way.

However, I'm curious to note you're differing opinions about memorization. In my experience, the concept of a person "running out of memory" or "forgetting" important information are the most unintuitive parts of Vancian Casting, as those mechanics pointedly differ from how human memory works in real life - enough that the phenomena require explanations of their own.

Indeed, I find the idea that spells rely solely, or even primarily on inherent qualities of the caster to work somewhat poorly with Vancian casting - which is why both of my explanations have the casters working together with or in context of many outside factors.

Another poorly compatible idea with Vancian casting is that all magic comes from a single source, like a form of energy that can be shaped to any desired effect (Like Mana, the Force etc.). If a setting is based on such principles, it often raises the question why Vancian spells have such strict and arbitrary effects or mechanics. This is why both of my versions attribute magic to highly varied sub-systems, where any desired effect needs very specific knowledge and measures. A caster isn't just clapping his hands and making things come true (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Laconic/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve), and instead working with defined elements of the setting.:smallsmile:
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Laconic/MagicAIsMagicA)

Another solution is to read some Vance, of course. Discworld also describes Vancian casting a couple of times.

I've never read Dying Earth, but from what I've heard of it, it uses a variant of the "Spells as Machinery" idea - sometimes with literal machinery doing the work, maybe.

The thing about "formulas" to affect reality is also echoed in works of H.P. Lovecraft, where things that are "magical" are often tied to extremely advanced mathematics and alien understanding of the world. The core idea is that sufficiently advanced understanding of natural laws allows to do things seemingly impossible to lesser creatures. This too is a clear variant of "Spells as Machinery", or perhaps "Magic as Science" since it is treated as extension of natural sciences. :smallsmile:

Defiant
2010-12-31, 08:03 PM
I find the "running out of memory" idea fairly appropriate. You can cast the spells, but you can only remember so many completion triggers, especially given their magical power.

I mean, if I give you a bunch of numbers and tell you to memorize them, there's a certain limit that you can memorize. If you keep doing it and working at it, then you can increase your limit. Vancian casting works in the same way, except due to its magical nature, it's somewhat harder.

Of course, this interpretation necessitates the idea that casting the magic is also physically or mentally draining - such that a wizard couldn't just spend every 10 minutes casting fireball for an unlimited amount of time in the day.

So in the morning, you can cast a bunch of spells... but due to the limitation of how many completion triggers you can remember and hold in your mind, and how much mental draining you can handle, there's a limit.

Frozen_Feet
2010-12-31, 09:40 PM
The problem is that while human short term memory can indeed only hold 7 or so different objects, human long-term memory has no such limit. It is possible for a human to memorize long, complex formulas, songs and whole passages from a book, and remember them for years. Because the triggers can be uttered in less than 6 seconds, they can't be more complex than, say, a phone number. This means that a caster could learn much more of them with much less effort and training than the number of spell-slots imply. Indeed, since you can pre-cast a huge number of even the most complex spells in 15 minutes, even the actual spells can't be much longer than their triggers. The idea of spells being hugely mentally draining and complex made much more sense when preparing them took hours instead of minutes.

There's also another disparity. If you are precasting spells and only need to remember the triggers, why can't the wizard take another extra 15 minutes to prepare more spells than the given number, and just write triggers of the "excess" spells on cluecards? There has to be some limiting factor independent of the caster's memory, or that should be perfectly viable. If you start giving magic qualities that screw around with human memory, such as that "spells never stay the same" or "wizard forgets everything written to his spellbook every day", it stards to undermine the premise that two spellcasters can learn from each other, or ever cast spells with similar effects. In case of Vancian magic, I find it more fitting to state that the knowledge of the spells remains intact, and it's the other efforts required to set up the spells causing their limited nature.

The problem of fatigue is an interesting one. Personally, I think the only fatigue that comes from spells happens when they are triggered - and that only in the case of spells which actually specify some costs (XP or components). The very existence of material components suggests that if spells have "energy costs", they usually come from somewhere else than the caster.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-31, 09:49 PM
I generally do it this way:

Wizards: Prepare 99% of their spells in that hour prep time. The spellwork is laid down and set up. When you cast the spell you are finishing up the spell and it casts. The spell is now spent and gone, you can try and finish it again but there isn't anything there to finish. As Wizards gain levels they become more organized, find shortcuts and are generally more time-efficient prepping more complex spells and more spells in general.

Clerics: Their God gives them Spells for doing his/her/it's work. It is like a lolly: you get X lollies each day from a selection. The lollies go off when you get the next batch of lollies. When you eat the lollies the spell goes off doing whatever it does. The lolly is now gone and can't be re-eaten. As they level they do more of their God's work and get more lollies and a bigger selection of better lollies (higher level spells).

Sorcerers: Every day they get X Spirit Points (naturally produced by people with sorcerous blood and used as currency by Spirits). They can spend Spirit Points to "buy" the use of 1 Spirit for a certain amount of time. As they level they get more Spirit Points a day to buy higher-priced spirits. To buy a spirit you must study it or befriend it, It will basically give you it's business card so you can summon it and buy it's services. You can only have a certain number of business cards at a time but that number goes up as you level.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-01, 10:13 AM
Ah, but that's only telling what is happening, not why. :smallwink:

Actually yes, it does explain why.

Spells take too long to cast if you don't prepare them ahead of time. That's how Vancian magic works in D&D.

He can only hold so many spells "mostly cast" at a time. It has nothing to do with memorisation - you'll note that D&D doesn't use that word anymore.

Zaq
2011-01-02, 04:30 PM
The problem is that while human short term memory can indeed only hold 7 or so different objects, human long-term memory has no such limit. It is possible for a human to memorize long, complex formulas, songs and whole passages from a book, and remember them for years. Because the triggers can be uttered in less than 6 seconds, they can't be more complex than, say, a phone number. This means that a caster could learn much more of them with much less effort and training than the number of spell-slots imply. Indeed, since you can pre-cast a huge number of even the most complex spells in 15 minutes, even the actual spells can't be much longer than their triggers. The idea of spells being hugely mentally draining and complex made much more sense when preparing them took hours instead of minutes.

There's also another disparity. If you are precasting spells and only need to remember the triggers, why can't the wizard take another extra 15 minutes to prepare more spells than the given number, and just write triggers of the "excess" spells on cluecards? There has to be some limiting factor independent of the caster's memory, or that should be perfectly viable. If you start giving magic qualities that screw around with human memory, such as that "spells never stay the same" or "wizard forgets everything written to his spellbook every day", it stards to undermine the premise that two spellcasters can learn from each other, or ever cast spells with similar effects. In case of Vancian magic, I find it more fitting to state that the knowledge of the spells remains intact, and it's the other efforts required to set up the spells causing their limited nature.

The problem of fatigue is an interesting one. Personally, I think the only fatigue that comes from spells happens when they are triggered - and that only in the case of spells which actually specify some costs (XP or components). The very existence of material components suggests that if spells have "energy costs", they usually come from somewhere else than the caster.

I like to view the situation as your weak mortal form being only able to deal with so much magical power per day. As you become more experienced (gaining levels) or simply sharpen your raw talent (increasing your key stat), you can handle more of it, but there's always some kind of limit. (This also nicely explains why casters invariably have good Will saves—they're increasingly adept at resisting the strains that magic itself forces upon their bodies and souls.)

As for the components? I really like the suggestion in Complete Mage (a rare example of me agreeing with WotC's fluff) that V/S/M components are locks, rather than keys. The spells themselves don't actually involve eating spiders, waving your arms around, chanting nonsense, or anything like that. Casters use them as little rituals to intentionally distract themselves or otherwise prevent the spells from reaching full power—because if the spell were at full power, the caster wouldn't be able to handle it. Only by intentionally putting these distractions and limitations in place can the spells be made manageable. Maybe the sulfur and bat guano actively drains away some of the fieriness of the Fireball, or maybe it's just the fact that a sorcerer mucking around with that stuff can't fully focus on the unbridled power of the spell itself (like wearing a mask when you look at a welding torch, to oversimplify a bit), but either way, it keeps the spell at a manageable level. That explains why it takes special training and extra magical effort (read: higher spell slots) to cast Still Spells or Silent Spells, and why it takes special training to cast spells without the usual material components. (Why doesn't Eschew Materials also have a spell slot increase? Game balance, basically.) Works for me, at least.