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View Full Version : With Mind And Magic, All Will Fall [3.5 Base Class, PEACH]



Rob Roy
2011-01-01, 02:28 AM
The Psimage
Magic is a very powerful thing. Those that master it can rip the world in half with a thought. Psionics, a thing that the greatest villains in all the multiverse practice, is a very different thing from magic. Weaker some say, others say horribly powerful and a blight upon the world. Wizards and psions, despite the similarities of their disciplines, have not been known to get along. Wizards, in their Ivory Towers, scoff at the psions lack of power and psions, deep within the parts of the mind unknown to most, scoff at the wizards lack of power, even though both groups tend to be as powerful (or wizards more powerful) as each other. Suffice to say, when they do meet each other, they tend to kill each other, or at least try and leave each other presence quickly as possible. That is how things are between the two until the psimage comes along. Mastering both disciplines, both groups have a distaste for such beings. Both think they stupid for mastering the other, as each group sees the other as weaker. When all three groups meet, it is generally the psimage that comes out alive, as their spells can feed their powers and vice versa. One would be stupid to trifle with a prepared psimage, it would cost you your life.
****
I made this class while waiting for midnight New Years day, so a few mistakes due to tiredness are to be expect the entire class being more powerful than the wizard because of some tired induced lack of thinking. This class was made to test out the level one mechanic, and I just kind of extrapolated from there. Please post any critiques, comments or suggestions.

StatblockThe Psimage
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th|Powerpoints/Day|Powers Known|Maximum Power Level Known

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Magic To Mind, Mind To Magic|2|0|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2|1|1st

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Bonus Feat|1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2|1|1st

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+x1|
+3|--|1|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|11|1|2nd

4th|
+2|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|1|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|11|2|2nd

5th|
+2|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|1|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|21|2|3rd

6th|
+3|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|1|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|21|2|3rd

7th|
+3|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|1|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|32|2|4th

8th|
+4|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|1|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|32|2|4th

9th|
+4|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|44|2|5th

10th|
+5|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|44|2|5th

11th|
+5|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|57|3|6th

12th|
+6/+1|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|57|4|6th

13th|
+6/+1|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|64|5|7th

14th|
+7/+2|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|64|6|7th

15th|
+7/+2|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|79|7|8th

16th|
+8/+3|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|79|8|8th

17th|
+8/+3|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|-|95|9|9th

18th|
+9/+4|
+x|
+x|
+x|Bonus Feat|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|95|9|9th

19th|
+9/+4|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|112|10|9th

20th|
+10/+5|
+x|
+x|
+x|--|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|1|112|10|9th
[/table]
Miscellaneous
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d4
Class Skills:
The psion’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Psicraft (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Decipher Script (Int)
Skill Points at 1st Level
(2 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier.
The Psimage cast spells using INT and manifests powers using CHA. It used the wilder powers list for powers and the wizard/sorcerer spell list for spells

Class Features

Magic To Mind: A psimage can turn any spell slot that hasn't been used for the day into power points by using this chart.
Spell Slot Level| Power Points
1st|1
2nd|3
3rd|5
4th|7
5th|9
6th|11
7th|13
8th|15
9th|17
Mind To Magic: When preparing your spells you may turn power points into an extra spell slot using the chart above.

Bonus Feats: At every even level, a psimage gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, Spell Mastery, psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat. The psimage must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The psimage is not limited to these categories when choosing feats at that time.

Chess435
2011-01-01, 06:09 AM
Wow..... that's OP. Combining the power of 2 Tier 1 casters AND throw in a bunch of bonus feats, and you have a class far superior to anything published.

JoshuaZ
2011-01-01, 09:29 AM
There's a formatting error in the level 4 part of the main table.

This is ridiculously overpowered. This gets double 9s for free, and has a lot of bonus feats. Honestly, even if you had no features other than the spellcasting progression and the bonus feats this would seem overpowered, simply given the large number of feats, even with the lower number of spells per a day than a wizard. The fact that they also get 9th level powers and the flexibility to turn spell slots into more power points? Yeah... (although this doesn't actually specify their casting mechanism or spell-lists or powers lists. This might be sane if those were strongly restricted.)

Edit: Also, as written the ability to convert spell slots of powers increases at way too high a level, since a 9th level power normally takes 17 power points. At the higher levels you are getting far more power out of conversion then you are putting in to it.

MountainKing
2011-01-01, 09:44 AM
Even normal Wizards only get a bonus feat every five levels. Subtracting one spell per day per level falls very, very far short of balancing that. Then, you pile on full dose of Psion in ever bite, and then the real insanity starts.

Need a bunch of spells for the day? No problem; with my giant pool of feats, I've actually tweaked out my PP to gargantuan levels! I'll just turn them all into spells... what's that? We'll be needing a pile of psionics tomorrow? Oh, well, I've already got those. Wait, we'll need more? Oh fiiiine, lemme just use this psionic power that lets me re-select my feats; I won't need all the PP optimization, because I won't be needing all these arcane spells.

This class is extremely broken. I honestly can't think of a way to fix it. To balance it, as a *start*, you'd need to massively lock down just what spells can be learned and what powers can be known, and you'd probably need to cut down the spells per day and power points per day at the same time. Eventually, it's going to just be kind of... ouch... and then, there won't be much benefit over... that... one class... There's a PrC in the EPH that already does this; sure, it's re-mapped Mystic Theurge. Does it matter? You have psionics.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 11:15 AM
Congrats you just invented Tier -1
I would cut Bonus Feats back to Wizard, have the Wizard side ban 2-3 Schools of magic and limit the Psionic Powers drastically. You haven't filled in the Saves past level3.

JKTrickster
2011-01-01, 11:19 AM
Well first of all, you're missing what spell list this class has. Or what Stat it uses to cast. I would recommend using a separate stat for Arcane casting and Psion manifesting.

And yeah, this isn't balanced. The two post above already outline why.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 11:21 AM
And yeah, this isn't balanced. The FOUR posts above already outline why.

fixed it for you

boomwolf
2011-01-01, 12:26 PM
Don't be harsh on him. he only wanted to prove you CAN be more broken then erudite.

Rob Roy
2011-01-01, 04:19 PM
Well first of all, you're missing what spell list this class has. Or what Stat it uses to cast. I would recommend using a separate stat for Arcane casting and Psion manifesting.

And yeah, this isn't balanced. The two post above already outline why.
I'm goignto add that in, fix the formatting error, make the casting stat different for arcane and psionics, and remove over half of the bonus feats. Then I'll fix the Magic to Mind Table.

Rob Roy
2011-01-01, 04:41 PM
There, is this monstrosity usable in a normal game now?

JKTrickster
2011-01-01, 06:17 PM
You...didn't fix your saves :smallwink:
And you have level 19 repeated instead of having a level 20.

But umm....wait is the spell chart for spells/day or spells known?

And if its not the latter, how do they learn spells? You don't list them having a spell book or anything.

And wait - access to Psion list? Even to discipline specific powers? No sir, that's bad.

Rob Roy
2011-01-01, 07:14 PM
You...didn't fix your saves :smallwink:
And you have level 19 repeated instead of having a level 20.

But umm....wait is the spell chart for spells/day or spells known?

And if its not the latter, how do they learn spells? You don't list them having a spell book or anything.

And wait - access to Psion list? Even to discipline specific powers? No sir, that's bad.
Second one is fixed, the saves will be fixed when I have time. Spells known, and changed to the wilder list.

boomwolf
2011-01-01, 07:26 PM
What on earth makes you think this is anything NEAR balanced?

I mean. its almost like being a gestalt wizard/psion, two tier 1 classes. its SO overpowered that it makes the erudite-who is unquestionably the strongest class in the game-cry itself to sleep. and for comparison-a level 20 erudite played well WILL win at a 100% ratio versus 1000 level 20 paladins/fighters/rangers/rouges/scouts/barbarians/monks/any combination of those.


Get a grip on gameplay mechanics before you try to homebrew. because what you make is COMPLETELY unusable, and you refuse to listen to the fact everyone tells you so.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 07:38 PM
You state in Class Features that you get Bonus Feats every 2nd level but only Level 2 & 18 in the table.

Maybe have 1/2 Psion manifesting with level9 Powers as a capstone.

Sorcerer Spells Known but with the Scribe Scroll Feat or change level2 Bonus Feat to Scribe Scroll.

Rob Roy
2011-01-01, 07:38 PM
What on earth makes you think this is anything NEAR balanced?

I mean. its almost like being a gestalt wizard/psion, two tier 1 classes. its SO overpowered that it makes the erudite-who is unquestionably the strongest class in the game-cry itself to sleep. and for comparison-a level 20 erudite played well WILL win at a 100% ratio versus 1000 level 20 paladins/fighters/rangers/rouges/scouts/barbarians/monks/any combination of those.


Get a grip on gameplay mechanics before you try to homebrew. because what you make is COMPLETELY unusable, and you refuse to listen to the fact everyone tells you so.
I'm well aware this is a horrible piece of trash. I made it at three in the morning. This class is completely unbalanced. Which is why I'm gradually nerfing it, though giving up and starting over would be easier. It's pretty much a psion/wizard gesalt with an overpowered ability, I am well aware of this and how overpowered it is. I do not think it's near balanced, but if you have any suggestions on how to make a psionic/arcane base class without sounding like a prick, I'd love to hear them.

Rob Roy
2011-01-01, 07:40 PM
You state in Class Features that you get Bonus Feats every 2nd level but only Level 2 & 18 in the table.

Maybe have 1/2 Psion manifesting with level9 Powers as a capstone.

Sorcerer Spells Known but with the Scribe Scroll Feat or change level2 Bonus Feat to Scribe Scroll.

Hmm, I think I'll weaken the arcane casting instead, by making level 5 casting the capstone. I'll fix the wording in the Class Features. Frankly I think letting them get to ninth level in either area makes them overpowered. I'll change the level 2 bonus into scribe scroll.
EDIT
Really I think I'm going to have to make it so they get a casting cap of level 4 spells/powers, so they don't stay as a single class gestalt.
EDIT
I don't have the time to make this overpowered, game breaking class something resembling tier 1 at the moment, so that's the end of that.

necroon
2011-01-02, 01:23 AM
TBH I loved it (Original Posting)... from a certain point of view. It makes a great class for a player char boss type monster or main Villain. Throw the half-fiend template on it ('cause everything needs more fiend) up the saving throws and call it a day!
As far as balanced... I'd cap the spell casting at 5th (like you came up with) and maybe limit the Psionic power cap to 4 or 5 as well (or maybe even alternate between levels granting psionic and arcane progression). Maybe give the feat selection (via bonus feat) limited. Ref and Fort seem good, I agree with the HD. Only problem I see is keeping players in it til later levels (as the gap from 3 - 18 seems a tad bit drollish). At least from my perspective. Though I'm not sure what you could put there to spice things up without the OP ALARM going off again. I'll think about it and let you know if I come up with anything. I love the idea, and the concept (as well as the 1rst level ability) are cool. Keep at it! : D

GnomeWorks
2011-01-02, 01:27 PM
Clearly it is too much. Everyone else who has posted has said as much.

The first answer would be to not cap at 9th level spells and powers. Optimized mystic theurges can hit 8/8 or 9/7, depending on which way you want to go, so capping them at 8th in both seems like it would be alright. 7/7 would be more sane if you wanted to give them more class features.

Dual MAD may be insufficient. I would base casting off of Int, manifesting off of Cha, and bonus spells/PP off of Wis.

I would also stagger the spell/power progression, so that you're getting access to the next spell or power level at each level. So at 1st you'd have access to 1st spells and powers, at 3rd you gain 2nd spells, at 4th you gain 2nd powers, 5th you gain 3rd spells, etc etc.

Make effective caster and manifester level at 3/4 class level, min 1.

The ability to turn slots into PP or PP into slots may be overpowered - it effectively doubles your ability mod used for bonus spells/PP, since you can convert them. But since you reduced base slots and PP, it may be alright.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-02, 04:10 PM
Honestly, to be the Devil's advocate here, if this is meant to be as strong as Wizard and as Erudites and to be able play in a tier 1 and 2 game, than this is perfect.

But remember that Wizards can go into Incantrix or into SCM, and that Erudites love them a bit of the old Anarchic Initiate, which makes them even stronger, whilst this, although they can qualify for those PrC's, don't want to take them as the only PrC that boost both Spellcasting and Manifesting is Cerebremancer, which this is undoubtedly already better at doing.

Heck, as written, if not for extra bonus feats, this is weaker than a strait StP Erudite (although calibrating a class to another tier 1 class is never a good idea) because it loses on the versatility. Also, this is MADer than either Wizards or Erudites, as it requires 2 casting stats.

You have to remember that, when you are tier 1, having access to more spells just makes things less complicated, it rarely make them easier or cheaper, so it doesn't really make you any more powerful or versatile than you already are. This is why both Archivists and StP Erudites aren't tier 0, they are still tier 1.

firemagehao
2011-01-02, 06:45 PM
This could be a very good class.

How does this class function in regards to the Cerebremancer PrC?

Dead_Jester
2011-01-02, 09:08 PM
How does this class function in regards to the Cerebremancer PrC?

It's a Cerebremancer, but better :smallwink:

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-02, 09:10 PM
It's a Cerebremancer, but better :smallwink:

And a Base Class so no jumping through hoops or silly multi-classing penalties (if your DM uses them)