Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Temotei

2011-01-01, 03:22 AM

Any entries for contests should be entered in the current contest and discussed here. That is, anything other than entries goes here. Also, anyone who enters the contests may have their classes evaluated for what "tier" it's in by Morph Bark here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701). This has no bearing on the contest, however, so keep making what you like.

For those of you who are fans of the Pathfinder system (sometimes called 3.P), please refer to the Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234663).

Current Contest - Champions and Mooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257051)

Past Contests

{table=head]Contest|Name|First Place
I|The Light Beckons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8008389)|Twilight Caster
II|Altar of Naught (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8591867)|Ebon Initiate
III|Can I Borrow That? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9411886)|Hemoscribe
IV|Tipping the Scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10075276#post10075276)|Gambler
V|You're MIND! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10504199)|Mindwarped
VI|Let's Play Dress Up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199119)|Stylist
VII|You've Been PUNK'D! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206927)|Generator
VIII|One Small Step for a Contest...One Giant Step for Contestkind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216894)|Zodiac
IX|Better Than it Sounds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12291460)|Farmer
X|Name That Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230747)|Tempest Warlord
XI|Big Money Weave a Mighty Web (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237024)|Companion
XII|Race Race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244379)|Son of Man
XIII|On a Whim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250826)|Cycle Warden[/table]

Lord_Gareth

2011-01-01, 03:28 AM

Interesting. I may actually have an entry for this one, my friend.

We shall see.

Temotei

2011-01-01, 03:34 AM

We shall see.

This just gave me an idea for another contest. Sweet.

DragonOfUndeath

2011-01-01, 05:52 AM

Sounds good. Color me interested

IcarusWings

2011-01-01, 07:53 AM

Oooh, was wondering when another one of these would come around. Let's hope I get it finished by the deadline this time.

EDIT: I think I'm gonna' use the concept for a class I've had for a while now. It's basically an Alchemist inspired by the Full Metal Alchemist series. With the law of Equivalent Exchange being the balance schtick.

DragonOfUndeath

2011-01-01, 07:59 AM

I'm thinking a Reaper type class. Straddling the line between Life, Death and Undeath.

TheGeckoKing

2011-01-01, 02:51 PM

This noob might just make an entry......how does The Mechanus Knight sound?

Temotei

2011-01-01, 05:35 PM

This noob might just make an entry......how does The Mechanus Knight sound?

Taking that "scales of justice" idea further?

TheGeckoKing

2011-01-01, 05:46 PM

Temotei

2011-01-01, 05:48 PM

Oh yeah. It'll be Mechanicus' way of bringing balance to the Multiverse while sidestepping the various jurisdictions that stop the Inevitables (That and Inveitables tend to botch things up, a la Pandorym). I think. Basically "If there can be Paladins and Blackguards, why not Mechanus Knights?"

Fair enough. Good luck.

On the life and death idea: That was what I first thought of for a theme, but I decided to simply make it an option in a broader spectrum of thought. Interesting.

boomwolf

2011-01-01, 05:57 PM

Oh yeah. It'll be Mechanicus' way of bringing balance to the Multiverse while sidestepping the various jurisdictions that stop the Inevitables (That and Inveitables tend to botch things up, a la Pandorym). I think. Basically "If there can be Paladins and Blackguards, why not Mechanus Knights?"

Take it a step farther with TN paladins?

Anyway. might come up with something, but don't catch me on my word.

Amechra

2011-01-01, 06:04 PM

I think I'll join in, perhaps with a new magic system as well...

Basic idea is that members of the class will have the ability to shift across alignments, with powers based off each alignment. You would have to be TN to play one, though, and they must take on alignments that are the least frequent in the area, as they see it.

A Jack of all trades element will have to be in there too, so as to completely balance out a party, with no personal focus on one thing, for that way would lead to imbalance :smallbiggrin:.

Of course, it will be capable of even impossible alignments, for what if the Party are all NG or NE? Of course he has to LC (Lawful Chaotic, just so you know.) Or Good Evil, or any other impossible fusion.

I've got my work cut out for me...

DragonOfUndeath

2011-01-01, 08:12 PM

Morph Bark

2011-01-01, 08:13 PM

Balance, eh? Interesting. And yeah, had been wondering when the fourth would be up. The third was never even officially finished!

This somehow makes me think of trying something with the Balance skill. Skill-based casting, perhaps?

Temotei

2011-01-01, 08:16 PM

Skill-based casting, perhaps?

Good luck balancing (:smallamused:) that. It's usually a bad idea to do it, but with a blank slate (a whole new base class), it could be done.

Ecalsneerg

2011-01-01, 08:47 PM

I'm currently thinking of an Arbitrator class. I'm currently thinking a psionic class, so it can, y'know, judge the TRUTH! And nothing but the truth!

I was also thinking Maneuvers, but I've never been a big fan of classes with two progressions (except, y'know, Theurge PrCs), so probably won't go that route.

Amechra

2011-01-01, 08:55 PM

That seems pretty easy to do. Spell list: All the Detect spells, Immunity to Detect spells on anyone, etc.
For the Alignment thing: Good gets A abilities
Neutral (Good/Evil) gets B abilities
Evil gets C abilities
Law gets D abilities
Neutral (Law/Chaos) gets E abilities
Chaos gets F abilities

Believe me, it's not going to be that simple, seeing that the class is focused on balance as concept, and true balance at that. For example, one of the class features is that you get the average of all your ability score modifiers as a bonus to saves; another will allow you to cut that down to three ability scores instead of 6.

And it has a capstone that permanently sets you to 0 hp, neither alive nor dead, not belonging to any type, subtype, or alignment, and basically becoming immortal through being perfectly balanced with the imbalance within.

And the class name is in Estonian. Who can hate that?

Ajadea

2011-01-01, 10:35 PM

I may have to do this...I have this crazy idea in which the character utilizes supernatural class features by moving points from one thematic pool (Creation/Destruction/Freedom/Control probably) to another rather than expending anything, and having any pool not full enough or too full penalizing the character somewhat, probably with penalties of some sort(fatigued/sickened). I'm visualising some sort of crazy 4-d scale link up...this is going to be complicated.

It probably involves finding personal balance through accepting the smaller imbalances in life, so the imbalances allowed without penalty would increase until they are eliminated at the capstone...

I just need a halfway decent actual capstone now.

Amechra

2011-01-01, 10:49 PM

Sounds like we have similar ideas. Don't go stealing my capstone now!

Ajadea

2011-01-02, 12:17 AM

Your capstone, now that I look at it, seems a little...off. What if something hits you? 0 hp is...awkward, honestly. Do you become invincible? If so, that's broken.

But I don't think they're that similar. Mine specifically becomes less obsessed with balance as it levels, becoming able to drift farther from that ideal as it levels while also getting closer to it. Also, the alignment restrictions are as druid, rather than 'must be TN'.

EDIT:...unless you're using skill checks to resist taking damage at all. In which case, great minds think alike, I guess, because I was thinking about implementing that...

Amechra

2011-01-02, 12:47 AM

Basically, it will be a level check. With scaling effects. Basically, at 2nd level, you can make a level check instead of a save, and it escalates from there.

But it definitely includes loss of type, subtype, and alignment in there, because my concept is more that the person taking the class is balancing all things within themselves, including their imbalance/balance, and also trying to balance out the world around them.

They basically exist for balance as an end in and of itself.

Hell, the class name is 'Balanced' in Estonian! (I happen to like how Estonian sounds, so there!)

IcarusWings

2011-01-02, 07:31 AM

Posted the WIP of the Alchemist, so that people can get the general concept.

Morph Bark

2011-01-02, 09:30 AM

Good luck balancing (:smallamused:) that. It's usually a bad idea to do it, but with a blank slate (a whole new base class), it could be done.

It is in balancing the balance of Balance-based casting that lies the challenge of this balancing-based Base Class Challenge. :smallamused:

I think I might also have to better balance my jokes...

Temotei

2011-01-02, 11:49 AM

It is in balancing the balance of Balance-based casting that lies the challenge of this balancing-based Base Class Challenge. :smallamused:

I think I might also have to better balance my jokes...

I think the best part is the balance of your joke (front- and back-loaded).

Frozen_Feet

2011-01-02, 01:36 PM

I'm finding it mildly concerning that so many people here are expressing practically the same concept I first though of when I read the challenge. (^_^;;) Now I just have to hope this doesn't boil down to who can type fastest! :smalltongue:

Ajadea

2011-01-02, 01:41 PM

Ecalsneerg

2011-01-02, 09:35 PM

So I posted the first few levels of my Arbiter class in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10085056#post10085056). Admittedly, he is without class skills, a power list or anything lik that which is important to running and playing one, but that's not the point :P

Any comments so far?

Temotei

2011-01-02, 10:54 PM

Any comments so far?

You should probably explain what "the next creature he fights" means. Does it mean the next creature the arbiter declares an enemy? Does it mean the next creature that attacks the arbiter? Does it mean the next creature the arbiter attacks?

I read that under scales of justice, but it may be mentioned elsewhere, too.

Ecalsneerg

2011-01-03, 06:34 AM

You should probably explain what "the next creature he fights" means. Does it mean the next creature the arbiter declares an enemy? Does it mean the next creature that attacks the arbiter? Does it mean the next creature the arbiter attacks?

I read that under scales of justice, but it may be mentioned elsewhere, too.

Hmmm... good point. Clarifying now.

Mangles

2011-01-03, 07:29 AM

@Ecalsneerg

is Ordered Strike meant to smite evil or smite chaotic. At the moment it smites evil

Ecalsneerg

2011-01-03, 07:50 AM

Ah, it's meant to smite chaos. I forgot to edit that part when copying the wording off the Paladin :P

On the subject of Ordered Strike, is it too strong, or too weak? I'm conscious that maybe it costs too much to augment it for the amount of pp an arbiter is getting. I mean, plausibly, at level 20, he could dump 19pp into an Ordered Strike, for an extra +10 to hit and +10d6 damage.

It may look like a lot, but compared to a level 20 Warblade/Swordsage, he can only do this 5 times a day and he's burned out all his power (the obvious issue of bonus pp aside).

boomwolf

2011-01-03, 08:43 AM

Well, I have an idea.

The Elementalist.

A spellcaster of sort, that casts spells from one of the four elements, and each time he does he "gains" points of that element and looses from the others, and he must keep all elements in check or suffer some serious side-effects.

Naturally not with the all-out casting capeabilites of true casters (as he can cast as much as he awnts if he balances the elements), maybe somehting along the lines of warlocks, power wise that it.

Ecalsneerg

2011-01-03, 09:31 AM

boomwolf

2011-01-03, 10:44 AM

It might shoot fire, but it also freezes the opponents body, create minor earthquakes, and blast people with small tornados....

IcarusWings

2011-01-03, 10:55 AM

Well, I have an idea.

The Elementalist.

A spellcaster of sort, that casts spells from one of the four elements, and each time he does he "gains" points of that element and looses from the others, and he must keep all elements in check or suffer some serious side-effects.

I always prefer five elements. Pick any five from water, earth, fire, metal, wood, lightning, or wind and you'll make me happy :smallbiggrin:. (Or elements based on the I-ching could be cool: Heaven, Wind, Fire, Mountain/Stone, Earth/Sand, Thunder, Sea, Swamp).

blackmage

2011-01-03, 11:52 AM

Blast you, boomwolf! That is almost exactly the idea I had!

Amechra

2011-01-03, 06:33 PM

Alright, I've posted the start of the Lahendus; 2 Roles out of the 3 Roles, 6 Associated Subroles and 3 Unassociated Subroles to go!

I also need to post Balance Shifting Abilities, and most class features.

boomwolf

2011-01-04, 04:47 AM

Amrecha-WTF are funky and square? that just strike me as silly...

Anyways. I don't see "balance" in any of the classes much....

IcarusWings

2011-01-04, 05:18 AM

The Axis of Funk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55828&highlight=funky+square).

And mine's gonna' be pretty balance focused when I get the fluff down.

Amechra

2011-01-04, 05:10 PM

I haven't got most of my class features posted yet, but that Center the Skaala ability is basically converting one of the Alignment components you go into neutral, thus effectively "balancing" it. There is a stronger use, but that requires you to have to opposite alignments.

Also, the Balancing Abilities don't harm, heal, create, or destroy; they even stuff out.

For example, there is one where you transfer HP from someone who has a lot of HP into someone who has less HP, up until they have the same HP.

So basically, he "balances" the battlefield... Also, if you notice, the Lahendus has a completeky average class chasis. :smallcool:

unosarta

2011-01-04, 05:14 PM

I am a bit into my class. I have decided to go with an interesting system on this one. Similar to spontaneous casting, but per encounter, and with points instead of slots. Also, the progression only goes up to 6th level spells to limit the power.

Any thoughts on the concept?

PairO'Dice Lost

2011-01-04, 06:00 PM

A few things:

1) The link in the OP of the contest thread doesn't lead here. It leads to http://here/. Might want to fix that.

2) My own idea is a gambler class that focuses on manipulating luck to make things less swingy and more predictable--lucky enemies are penalized, unlucky allies get bonuses, randomness is mitigated, etc. Not completely sure how I'll do that yet, but I'm working on some mechanics now.

3) Regarding the elementalist idea:

A spellcaster of sort, that casts spells from one of the four elements, and each time he does he "gains" points of that element and looses from the others, and he must keep all elements in check or suffer some serious side-effects.

I would suggest that you strictly enforce the balance rather than simply incentivizing the elementalist to keep things balanced. Don't have a fire spell (for instance) give you X fire points and take away Y water points and try to put in something that would make people want to keep all of the elements between A and B points; instead, start each elemental pool off at a certain points value, have each element give points of the opposite element, and require each ability to use up more points of its own element. Thus, if the elementalist starts off with 10 points in each element and casts a fire spell costing 10 points, he loses 10 fire points and gains 10 water points--he is forced to keep to a balance because he literally cannot use any more fire until he uses some water, and the same with air vs. earth.

I always prefer five elements. Pick any five from water, earth, fire, metal, wood, lightning, or wind and you'll make me happy :smallbiggrin:. (Or elements based on the I-ching could be cool: Heaven, Wind, Fire, Mountain/Stone, Earth/Sand, Thunder, Sea, Swamp).

While I also like the 5-element system, the traditional 4 work better for a balance theme, seeing as there are 2 axes to balance around rather than a M:tG "color wheel" or elemental cycle to work with.

Temotei

2011-01-04, 09:55 PM

1) The link in the OP of the contest thread doesn't lead here. It leads to http://here/. Might want to fix that.

Oops. I forgot to edit the address in. Fixed. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Ajadea

2011-01-04, 10:36 PM

Amercha, what's the Lahendus's armor and shield proficiencies? And you have listed Follow Skaal's Shifting in the table and Follow the Skaala in the descriptions before. Are they the same thing? If so, which one is the correct name?

boomwolf

2011-01-05, 08:59 AM

3) Regarding the elementalist idea:

I would suggest that you strictly enforce the balance rather than simply incentivizing the elementalist to keep things balanced. Don't have a fire spell (for instance) give you X fire points and take away Y water points and try to put in something that would make people want to keep all of the elements between A and B points; instead, start each elemental pool off at a certain points value, have each element give points of the opposite element, and require each ability to use up more points of its own element. Thus, if the elementalist starts off with 10 points in each element and casts a fire spell costing 10 points, he loses 10 fire points and gains 10 water points--he is forced to keep to a balance because he literally cannot use any more fire until he uses some water, and the same with air vs. earth.

While I also like the 5-element system, the traditional 4 work better for a balance theme, seeing as there are 2 axes to balance around rather than a M:tG "color wheel" or elemental cycle to work with.

Actually, the more I think of it, the more I like the MtG 5 color wheel too, I'll make it a 5-color "platform" that you need to balance out. so you can't just fling around 2 types endlessly say, fire-water-fire-water, but if you got 5 trying "white"-"black"-"white"-"black" will cause "blue", despite never used, to rise FAR higher then green and red, making it more of a game of juggling between changing abilities then calculating how much to use of each, and this seems more fun to me.

So, we get a mage of an unnamed casting tye that channels "Light", "Darkness", "Order", "Chaos" and "Nature (naturally order and chaos need different names to avoid conflict with aligenment axis...)

Amechra

2011-01-05, 01:35 PM

I forgot to post the armor proficiencies, and the proper name is Follow Skaala's Shifting. I'll go fix it now.

TheGeckoKing

2011-01-05, 01:36 PM

Finally finished MK.I of the Mechanus Knight! Go have a look and poke it with the sticks of curiosity! Also, would letting it use manuvers from one Discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86266) be too much?

blackmage

2011-01-05, 02:23 PM

So, we get a mage of an unnamed casting tye that channels "Light", "Darkness", "Order", "Chaos" and "Nature (naturally order and chaos need different names to avoid conflict with aligenment axis...)

How about "anarchy" instead of chaos? I think Order is okay, its different enough from Lawful to avoid confusion.

boomwolf

2011-01-06, 05:04 AM

anarchy would do nicely.

Now, all I gotta do is compile "spell lists" for each "mana" (working with MtG terms until I find something better.

I am thinking of the following style for each: (a bit similar to MtG actually...)

Light: defensive spells, healing and such.

Order: detection/divination spells, antimagic and other subtle manipulation (like illusions)

Darkness: forcing others to your will (domination), debuffs and global harm (spells that hurt EVERYONE around, not only foes.)

Anarchy: destruction spells, and spells with not-so-sure result (like confusion)

Nature: summoning, shaping the battlefield (stone wall style)

Cheesy74

2011-01-06, 04:04 PM

I figure I may as well get in on this. It took me a minute, but I've got an inspiration. Juuust a tad cliche, but I think I've got a decent twist on it.

Amechra

2011-01-06, 06:46 PM

Dang, you stole one of my Balancing Abilities.

I'll probably condense them into one, just because.

Temotei

2011-01-11, 10:12 PM

Here you are, GeckoKing. You can keep using that spoiler or use this image and get rid of it--whichever you prefer. http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Temotei221/Optimized-Mordekaiser_Revamped_by_DarkIron.jpg

:smallcool:

I was going to do a review, but I have more pressing matters to attend to. Perhaps later.

Amechra

2011-01-12, 03:12 PM

I think I'm going to have to drop out for personal reasons.

Oh well, I look forward to seeing everyone's creations.

TheGeckoKing

2011-01-12, 03:16 PM

@Temotei

Aw thanks, but I found a picture I thought looked a bit more LN to me. Sorry :smalltongue:
Also, i'm gonna ask again. How would giving the Mechanus Knight a single, law themed disipline to use be? OK? Thematic? Broken?

DragonOfUndeath

2011-01-17, 12:24 AM

I have to withdraw from this. I'm sorry

TSED

2011-01-18, 12:49 AM

Channelers are a pretty powerful class, I think, but their power is a little limited:
- Extremely high charisma creatures won't have a low enough CR (or a low enough LA) to get the really powerful effects to bear.
- MAD, because frontliners still need that str/con and some points in dex.
- Their abilities are not guaranteed, though at level 11 you can start seeing some interesting rapid-change effects.

They are intended to be a force multiplier, but I admit I am a little nervous about the general lack of saving throws on their negative effects.

I dunno. Any one else's thoughts? They're meant to be more in line with the TOB type of melee classes, without taking the maneuvers mechanic. You can peach if you'd like. (;

Temotei

2011-01-18, 01:20 AM

I just had an awesome idea. Does anybody object to having the "host" post a class?

TSED

2011-01-18, 11:57 PM

I just had an awesome idea. Does anybody object to having the "host" post a class?

Since no one else has an opinion, I'll speak for them: "go ahead."

boomwolf

2011-01-19, 02:06 PM

Yea...I'm redrawing...not way I'll be done in time.

Lord_Gareth

2011-01-19, 02:12 PM

I just had an awesome idea. Does anybody object to having the "host" post a class?

The Host retains the power of the tiebreaker vote, which is why he is typically forbidden from posting. I'd say no.

Vauron

2011-01-19, 03:29 PM

Maybe write it up and simply post it outside of the challenge thread?

Morph Bark

2011-01-19, 04:54 PM

Maybe write it up and simply post it outside of the challenge thread?

That's prettymuch what I would say.

Then again at this point with schoolwork stacking up again I'm unsure if I'll be able to get in an entry at all, so dunno what a non-participant's voice counts for here.

Temotei

2011-01-19, 05:12 PM

The Host retains the power of the tiebreaker vote, which is why he is typically forbidden from posting. I'd say no.

Fair enough. I'll post it in another thread.

I'm sad to see three people (I think) withdraw so far. :smallsigh:

Vauron

2011-01-19, 05:22 PM

Was just reading the Jade Weaveshaper, and I have two questions. First, are 0 level spells supposed to add to your weave pool? While you have limited the number of times per day they can be used, it sounds like they still cost -1 weave points, thus adding one back to your pool.

Second, how long due Season points last? Until you rest? An hour? A week? Or are they permanent until they are used up?

unosarta

2011-01-19, 05:26 PM

TSED

2011-01-20, 12:05 AM

The Host retains the power of the tiebreaker vote, which is why he is typically forbidden from posting. I'd say no.

He could post his and have his un-vote-for-able.

Temotei

2011-01-20, 12:09 AM

He could post his and have his un-vote-for-able.

There's hardly any point in putting it in the contest, then. It would probably be better to just put it in its own thread. I'll link to it in a post in this thread, in any case, just so everyone can see what I would have entered with. :smalltongue:

Cheesy74

2011-01-25, 10:27 PM

Due to lack of inspiration for a unique mechanic, and wanting to avoid making a class that consists of twenty predetermined abilities, I'm withdrawing the Null from this competition.

Temotei

2011-01-25, 10:33 PM

Due to lack of inspiration for a unique mechanic, and wanting to avoid making a class that consists of twenty predetermined abilities, I'm withdrawing the Null from this competition.

That's unfortunate. :smallsigh:

Cheesy74

2011-01-25, 10:36 PM

I hate to do it, but I'd rather wait for a competition where I can make a better idea than submit an uninspired class. I may return it to the runnings if I'm struck with an idea, but for now things are looking grim.

And yeah, I know I'm something like the fifth. Dunno what to tell you there. :smallfrown:

PersonMan

2011-01-26, 02:00 AM

I was going to make an accountant class to enter this, but then I remembered something.

A character I didn't want to make, who I wanted to be so boring I wouldn't have to play him. His defining character trait was being incredibly average.

I will make this a base class. Somehow.

Temotei

2011-01-26, 02:09 AM

PersonMan

2011-01-26, 11:38 AM

T'will be.

Balancing will be tough, though.

It's slow going, I'll probably be adding and modifying stuff over the course of a couple days, at least.

Especially because the abilities are...well, automatically changing rolls or stats or whatever to 10, and surges of 20s/1s...well, it's a high-effort thing to keep the flavor and not make it horribly overpowered.

PairO'Dice Lost

2011-02-21, 11:37 PM

Soooo...that gambling/luck based class I mentioned a while back is done; I spent all of today just writing it up, so I'm not sure about the balance and clarity. The class uses a new spin mechanic (not related to the fatespinner at all) and has quite a few class abilities, but I don't think it should be too hard to figure out. After posting it, I noticed that there's already a luck-themed class...whoops. :smallredface: In my defense, I haven't checked the thread since I expressed my intentions last month.

Temotei

2011-02-21, 11:46 PM

PairO'Dice Lost

2011-02-22, 12:00 AM

Hey, with so few entries, I'm sure we'll all welcome anything. You have an hour and fifteen minutes to edit the class, if you'd like to, according to my clock. :smalltongue:

I generally enjoy your homebrew, besides.

It's already 12 here and I don't have any stylistic changes to make, just number-crunching, so I think I'll pronounce the Gambler complete. Now its fate is in the hands of the voters.

Temotei

2011-02-22, 01:34 AM

Tipping the Scale is closed. The voting thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188307).

Temotei

2011-03-06, 02:54 PM

There's a new challenge up, complete with bad pun: You're MIND! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10504199)

There are a lot of directions one can take this challenge. Let's see some great base classes, eh? :smallcool:

Volthawk

2011-03-06, 03:01 PM

Hmm, interesting. I suppose I'll make something for this. Not sure what form it's going to be, though.

Morph Bark

2011-03-06, 03:03 PM

Temotei

2011-03-06, 03:08 PM

For some reason this makes me want to think up a class based around Engrish, since I was like "you're mind? Shouldn't it be your mind?" and then figured that it didn't matter. (Not even sure if it actually is a mistake or intentional, since it probably is.) :smalltongue:

It's intentional. I was once known as one of the biggest English-fixers of homebrew on this board. :smalltongue:

Think "You're MINE!" Insert pun based on mind. :smalltongue:

unosarta

2011-03-06, 03:18 PM

I am probably going to do a base class initiator based on the Open Tome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188014), Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind, and maybe a few more disciplines.

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-06, 03:19 PM

Methinks I shall finally write up the Nightmare King class i've always wanted to do.

Morph Bark

2011-03-06, 03:35 PM

It's intentional. I was once known as one of the biggest English-fixers of homebrew on this board. :smalltongue:

Think "You're MINE!" Insert pun based on mind. :smalltongue:

Makes me think "You're MINED!" and making a class called the Mindminer. :smalltongue:

Temotei

2011-03-06, 03:38 PM

Makes me think "You're MINED!" and making a class called the Mindminer. :smalltongue:

I actually had thought of that, too. It made me wish that the racial prestige class contest was still open. :smallamused:

Cheesy74

2011-03-06, 03:49 PM

Reading this, my first instinct is a divine caster who unites the minds of his people.
And then I remembered that there is an ability already created that unites the minds of people.
So I'm going to be making a divine version of the Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic), most likely. My current task is to think up some new abilities that will stop it from being a variant class.

Morph Bark

2011-03-06, 04:06 PM

I actually had thought of that, too. It made me wish that the racial prestige class contest was still open. :smallamused:

Hmmm, thinking about it as a racial PrC, a Mindminer would certainly befit Duergar.

If I make the base class, the sample NPC will be a duergar. :smallamused:

Amechra

2011-03-06, 05:01 PM

I AM SOOO DOING THIS!

I mean... I'm joining in. If that's OK.

unosarta

2011-03-06, 05:37 PM

I AM SOOO DOING THIS!

I mean... I'm joining in. If that's OK.

Feel free. Anyone can enter a class into the contest.

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-06, 07:07 PM

Just posted the bare bones of the Nightmare Sculptor, with no crunch so far (too sleepy do do anything worthwhile), so basically tell me (if possible) if the fluff is any good/makes any sense, so I can fix it now, and not when i'm worrying about the more important bits.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-06, 07:29 PM

Awesome theme. I've been thinking of a class that would be a sort of monk/soulknife hybrid/fix, using it's body and mind as it's power, and now I can fit it into the contest. :smallsmile:

unosarta

2011-03-06, 07:36 PM

Oh man, I have a fun concept in the works.

”I sing of the ancient skies,
Fool hardy lies,
That filled the minds of my fathers,
Chasing away their bothers.

I sing of the roaring fires,
That tore through lyres,
Broke up homes,
And ate the tomes.

I sing of the sacrifice my mothers made,
to fight away the warring raid.
the wounds they received,
their sister’s corpses seen bleed.

I sing of the sacrifice of the strong,
For the idiot throng,
I will not make
That same mistake.”

--Lisaan Oroubourous, Warrior Poet of the Singing Thrush

Going to be an intelligence based Bardic Music/Poetry using Initiator, with roughly Warblade maneuver progression. They will be getting songs per encounter instead of per day, and activate them as a move action, granting all allies the bonus for one round only.

Amechra

2011-03-06, 10:13 PM

Interesting.

My idea is a sorta Psychic Warrior (conceptually, not a class clone), who has a part of their personality split off, to be used as a defense, and later on a Schism-like effect.

Will have a uniqueish casting mechanism, and will generally be... something. I don't know.

My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement.

The first part of The Wake by Abney Park, and in general an awesome quote that will be used for my class.

Temotei

2011-03-06, 11:07 PM

I like what I'm seeing so far. :smallbiggrin:

Also, yes, the challenge is open to everyone.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-07, 12:41 AM

Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing.

The Transcendentalist

Hyooz

2011-03-07, 12:50 AM

Might enter this one. Toying with an idea right now.

Temotei

2011-03-07, 03:51 AM

For those that won first, second, and third place in the last contest, I have a little gift:

PairO'Dice Lost: http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Temotei221/TiptheScale1st.png

unosarta: http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Temotei221/TiptheScale2nd.png

Derjuin: http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Temotei221/TiptheScale3rd.png

Feel free to leave them here or put them in your signatures. I'll also PM them to you in case you miss this post.

I like the prospective participation. All of this looks promising. :smallcool:

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-07, 04:50 AM

Why were there no kneecaps in those prizes?

Morph Bark

2011-03-07, 02:37 PM

Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing.

The Transcendentalist

Once I got to "dream" I couldn't finish. I started having dreams within dreams within dreams.

The Inceptor

Temotei

2011-03-07, 03:25 PM

Why were there no kneecaps in those prizes?

Because...they kept them? *cowers slightly*

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-07, 04:31 PM

I hereby deem the Nightmare Sculptor ready for use, although I could add more paths, i'm too tired to root through books for spell lists, which is why I did the three easy ones and one normal one first.
Therefore, even if it's just a "It's ok", go have a look! Tell me how it is! Is it usable? Is fear immunity at 1st level too much? Does it smell of kippers? Tell me!

Garryl

2011-03-07, 07:21 PM

Are partially complete projects that are already posted on these boards allowed as submissions? I've got a project that would fit this nicely, but I never completed it. This would be a good excuse for me to work on it again.

Hyooz

2011-03-08, 12:27 AM

Notes and rhymes carry power with them quite simply. They touch the rhythms of magic and life, interacting with them on a fundamental level. To manipulate reality with such is child's play.

My words, however, do not merely describe the world.

They define it.

The Scribe

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZ23WyMt20gwcD9Y_rWR3dAe-KrjITdgRm129Uc6mtbxQw8y68&t=1

unosarta

2011-03-08, 07:04 PM

Well, the rest of the Warrior Poet is done. Any comments?

Amechra

2011-03-09, 08:41 PM

I like the concept, unosarta.

How does my fluff look?

Temotei

2011-03-09, 10:16 PM

I've looked at:

The Nightmare Sculptor:
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Nightmare Sculptor. They are (Su) effects, unless otherwise noted.

It would probably be best to just note everything as supernatural as is standard, since having this statement makes weapon and armor proficiencies supernatural, as well as spellcasting and armored mage by a strict reading. I'd rule it as is intended, but it would be best to have each one noted with (Su), I think.

Numb to Nightmares (Ex): The Nightmare Sculptor has long been subject to horrors, borne from their own mind. Thus, the fears that can be created by other men simply do nothing for Nightmare Sculptors. A Nightmare Sculptor gains immunity to fear. This immunity ignores anything that would subvert it, such as the Dread Witch's Greater Mastery of Terror class feature. This is not borne by magic or training. The Nightmare Sculptor just does not care.

That's fair.

Phobic Path: At the start of their journey through paranoia, the Nightmare Sculptor must make a grim decision - what phobia defines them best? At 1st level, a Nightmare Sculptor chooses one of the paths below. They then add the spells noted to their spell list, and treat them as any other spell on their spell list (Divine Spells, if any, are cast as Arcane Spells by the Nightmare Sculptor). A few exceptions may occur, but each path, one way or another, gives the Nightmare Sculptor one spell of levels 1st-9th.

All of the phobic paths seem alright upon first glance. I don't remember the Cerebrosis spells too well, though.

Let Me Tell You A Story (Ex): At 3rd level, the Nightmare Sculptor can use their talking skills to greater terrify their enemies. The Nightmare Spinner treats their total ranks in Intimidate as their original ranks in Intimidate, plus half their ranks in Perform (Oratory). This ignores the skill rank cap, but only specifically for this ability.

Nightmare spinner isn't this class's name. :smalltongue:

This is fair.

Advanced Learning: At 4th level, a Nightmare Sculptor can add a new spell to their list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a cleric or wizard spell with the [Mind Effecting] tag, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the Nightmare Sculptor already knows. Once a new spell is selected, it is added to that Nightmare Sculptor’s spell list and can be cast just like any other spell she knows. If a spell is both a cleric spell and a wizard spell, use the higher of the two spell levels (when different) to determine what level the spell is
for a Nightmare Sculptor. A Nightmare Sculptor gains an additional new spell at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.

While I agree that the spells in the descriptor could very well be mind-effecting, the tag is actually mind-affecting.

Fear Me (Ex): At 6th level, the Nightmare Sculptor oozes fear out of their bones, and can make the weak flee with a glance. The Nightmare Sculptor gains a Gaze Attack that makes anyone seeing into the Nightmare Sculptor's eyes make a Will Save (DC is 10 + Levels in Nightmare Sculptor + Wis Mod)
or be affected by a Fear spell, with a caster level equal to the Nightmare Sculptor's. At 12th level, this effect benefits from the Nightmare Sculptor's Fear Me Regardless class ability as if it were being cast like a spell.

Aw. I thought it was going to be literally oozing out of your body. Like, in ooze form. If I use this, I'm fluffing it like that, just so you know. :smalltongue:

This is pretty powerful. A gaze attack is constant, remember, making every creature in range of the nightmare sculptor constantly subject to panic, which is an encounter-ending status effect. Making it require an action would reduce its power to a nicer level, as would a daily limit, or maybe just making the status effect shaken instead. You could also reduce its effect to only affect one creature at a time with the option of not affecting anything. That would remove the problem of your allies being in range, as well as remove many problems otherwise. It still makes single- and two-enemy encounters cakewalks--especially at 12th level and past it.

Share Your Worries (Ex): At 9th level, the Nightmare Sculptor of all people, can make a good listener. They know that the horrors the mind can make, inside and out. In fact, they have been known to heal mental integrity with their conversations with their words, and bolster their knowledge of that which induces fear with it. After all, one mind can only imagine so much. A number of times equal to their Wis Mod, a Nightmare Sculptor can converse with a willing creature (creatures with 0 WIS are considered willing regardless) that can hear and understand them for one minute. If they do, they gain a bonus to Intimidate checks equal to that creature's CR, and that creature is healed a number of points of Wis Damage/Drain equal to the Nightmare Sculptor's Wis Mod (Damage is healed before Drain). This Intimidate bonus does not stack, and a larger bonus replaces the previous bonus. A small side effect is that the worry sharer doesn't really find the Nightmare Sculptor scary for a while, and so demoralization checks the Nightmare Sculptor makes against that person automatically fail, for 24 hours.

It took a second reading to see why this works for the class, but I see it now. The only problem I see is that you say "A number of times equal to their Wis Mod..." That means in total, the ability only works a number of times equal to the nightmare sculptor's Wisdom modifier. Did you mean per day, per week, per month, or what?

Fear Me Regardless (Ex): At 12th level, the Nightmare Sculptor is so knowledgeable about fear that pathetic things like the blessing of a god, or that fact your dead doesn't stop them. They simply adapt. When a Nightmare Sculptor casts a spell, they may choose to ignore any [Mind Effecting] and [Fear] tags the spell might have, thus subverting any immunity to these effects.

Good.

Seeds of Paranoia (Su): At 15th level, the Nightmare Sculptor is terror incarnate, and they may sow the seeds of paranoia in their spells. Wis Mod times per day, when the Nightmare Sculptor may infect their spells with a little extra. On top of the normal saves the target makes, it must make one additional Will Save or contract a special kind of Cackle Fever, with an Incubation Period of Instantaneous, and the disease cannot be spread to other victims. This disease ignores immunity to disease (unless the target has Wis -), as it it only an infection in the most basic sense, and more mental degradation. The only way to remove this special disease is to make an opposed dispel check (Use the Nightmare Sculptor's caster level in this case).
While under the disease, the victim loses the ability to tell their dreams from reality slowly, and becomes more un-trusting and paranoid. At the end of their wretched lives, victims of this malady normally live alone, psychotic and delusional.

I thought you weren't going to notate supernatural abilities. :smallamused:

I like it. When you say dispel check, you mean with the dispel spell, you can destroy the effect, right? I just want to make sure there's no other dispel check involved here.

Nightmares Made Real (Su): At 18th level, when the Nightmare Sculptor sleeps, the dreams literally pour out, and induce torment into their enemies. While the Nightmare Sculptor sleeps, the land around them is affected by a Shadow Landscape (http://sites.google.com/site/shockfrosted/Home/dnd/spells#TOC-Shadow-Landscape) spell, centered on the Nightmare Sculptor. Allies are unaffected.

Ooh. I like this.

Your Logic Is Not Welcome Here (Ex): At 20th level, the Nightmare Sculptor realizes - it's all in their head. They can subvert immunities and induce insanities, yet help the mad themselves. Why? Because they thought it was the normal thing to do, and their near-omnipotent mind obliged their imagination. The reason they were once weak and now are near-gods? Because their mind thought that was the correct power level and so reality could do nothing as the magic just rewired reality to do as it's told. Hence, with this realization, the Nightmare Sculptor becomes more. They transcend their nightmares, their dreams, and everything else in their way. The Nightmare Sculptor takes no penalties for aging (Existing ones are removed), their maximum age is Infinite, and they gain a continual Greater Visage of the Deity (SpC p231) on their person, with the Nightmare Sculptor being treated as an Evil Cleric for the spell, regardless of their actual alignment.

The nightmare sculptor thought aging and dying was in their head, so they can circumvent it? Okay. I can see that happening in D&D.

It's a fair capstone, I think. The bonuses are large, but not too much so.

Alright. For the most part, I like the class. The gaze attack is the only feature that bothered me, really.

The Warrior Poet:
Weapon Proficiencies: War Poets are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and light armors, and shields. They are not proficient with Tower Shields.

This is alright, but you already made a mistake with the name. :smalltongue:

Song of the Poet (Ex): The Warrior Poet may sing, read poetry, chant, or make a speech to his allies, to inspire them. He may do this for himself as well, or to his enemies. Once per encounter per point of Intelligence he possesses, the Warrior Poet may sing or read. He knows all poems or songs that he has access to. He has access to Least songs at first level, and gains access to Lesser songs at fifth level, Greater songs at tenth level, and Artisan songs at fifteenth level. Reading or singing is a move action. Least and Lesser songs cost one use per encounter, and Greater and Artisan songs cost two uses.

Under the least songs spoiler, it says it can affect only the warrior poet or his enemies. I think you mean an enemy, since greater songs would be mostly useless if least songs affected all enemies.

Do artisan songs work on the warrior poet as well as on allies? The song that grants rage, bear's endurance, and bull's strength is fairly unnecessary, it seems. Transformation covers nearly the same effects and does it mostly better. The only thing the three-spell combo has over transformation is a +6 bonus to Strength and Constitution as opposed to +4 to each.

I like this allowing maneuver recovery. It's a nice touch.

Battle Poetry (Ex): Starting at sixth level, the Warrior Poet may add his Intelligence modifier to Perform checks, instead of his Charisma modifier. At eighth level, the Warrior Poet may add his Intelligence modifier to Will saves, instead of his Wisdom modifier. At fourteenth level, he may add his Intelligence modifier to attack rolls, in addition to whatever ability score he normally adds to his attack rolls. At twentieth level, he may add it to damage rolls. These bonuses stack with those granted from the Song of the Poet ability.

The Perform part of this comes pretty late and doesn't match up with the table text. I assume you meant for it to be at 2nd level, but the text trumps the table, as they say.

Tactics of the Warrior: Starting at sixth level, the Warrior Poet may gain any tactical feat that they qualify for. They gain another at twelfth level, and another at eighteenth level.

Naming this "Warrior Tactics" would get the point across more concisely. It also sounds better, in my opinion. Keep it if you like it, though.

Quickened Poetry: Starting at tenth level, the Warrior Poet may use his Song of the Poet ability as a free action, once per round.

Does this allow song of the poet to be used more than once per round? A rewording is in order, I think.

"...may use his song of the poet ability as a free action once per round in addition to using it as a move action once per round." You could use that if it does allow two uses per round.

"...may use his song of the poet ability as a free action instead of as a move action." Use that if you meant it to be so. You could also cut out "instead of as a move action," if you like.

Songstrike: Starting at twentieth level, the Warrior Poet may make a strike and spend all of the uses of his Song of the Poet ability per encounter he possesses, as a full round action. If he does so, he empowers the strike, maximising any variabalic damage components to the strike. He deals an additional damage equal to his Intelligence modifier. He may only use this ability once per day.

You like that undefined word (variabalic), don't you? :smalltongue: Variable works just fine if you want to replace it, but on Google, you're the first and second results (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=google#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=variabalic&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=170344a196d61403) for the word. Maybe it's your signature word. :smallamused:

Anyway, I like it. Combining this with open tome's crippling strike, shadow hand's five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike, diamond mind's time stands still, or even tiger claw's feral death blow would be fairly devastating. That's just looking at 9th-level strikes. :smallcool:

Overall, I don't have much to say about the class. Every dead level still grants a new maneuver, so you're basically covered there.

unosarta

2011-03-09, 10:32 PM

I've looked at:The Warrior Poet:
This is alright, but you already made a mistake with the name. :smalltongue:
Arrrgh. I made that mistake like 50 times when writing this class.

Under the least songs spoiler, it says it can affect only the warrior poet or his enemies. I think you mean an enemy, since greater songs would be mostly useless if least songs affected all enemies.
Yes, it is meant to be one enemy.

Do artisan songs work on the warrior poet as well as on allies? The song that grants rage, bear's endurance, and bull's strength is fairly unnecessary, it seems. Transformation covers nearly the same effects and does it mostly better. The only thing the three-spell combo has over transformation is a +6 bonus to Strength and Constitution as opposed to +4 to each.

I like this allowing maneuver recovery. It's a nice touch.
The Artisan effect does affect the Warrior Poet as well.

Good point on the spells. Hm. I think I will replace it with a song that grants the effects of the Keen Edge and Greater Magic Weapon instead. That way it also provides a bonus to any weapon wielder, instead of just strength based ones.

The Perform part of this comes pretty late and doesn't match up with the table text. I assume you meant for it to be at 2nd level, but the text trumps the table, as they say.
Shoooot, that was supposed to be second level.

Naming this "Warrior Tactics" would get the point across more concisely. It also sounds better, in my opinion. Keep it if you like it, though.
I honestly thing Tactics of the Warrior rolls off the tongue better than Warrior Tactics, and I was kind of trying to make the abilities sound more "flowery" so to speak.

Does this allow song of the poet to be used more than once per round? A rewording is in order, I think.
No. Good point. I will add a clause stating that the Warrior Poet may still only use the Song of the Poet ability once per round.

"...may use his song of the poet ability as a free action instead of as a move action." Use that if you meant it to be so. You could also cut out "instead of as a move action," if you like.
I could use this wording, I suppose.

You like that undefined word (variabalic), don't you? :smalltongue: Variable works just fine if you want to replace it, but on Google, you're the first and second results (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=google#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=variabalic&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=170344a196d61403) for the word. Maybe it's your signature word. :smallamused:
I like that word! Also, it technically should exist. And I like making up words like that, especially when they make more sense than using the existing word, or at least remove confusion. Also, using it twice hardly makes it my catch phrase. And my catch phrase is the first line in my Signature anyway. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I like it. Combining this with open tome's crippling strike, shadow hand's five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike, diamond mind's time stands still, or even tiger claw's feral death blow would be fairly devastating. That's just looking at 9th-level strikes. :smallcool:
Thanks!

Overall, I don't have much to say about the class. Every dead level still grants a new maneuver, so you're basically covered there.
I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions, even just fluff abilities, that could go in those levels. I desperately hate having those terrible white spaces in my tables.

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-10, 12:08 PM

I've looked at:

The Nightmare Sculptor:

It would probably be best to just note everything as supernatural as is standard, since having this statement makes weapon and armor proficiencies supernatural, as well as spellcasting and armored mage by a strict reading. I'd rule it as is intended, but it would be best to have each one noted with (Su), I think.

Done

That's fair.
Gooooood.

All of the phobic paths seem alright upon first glance. I don't remember the Cerebrosis spells too well, though.
Glad that the paths are O.K. The Cerebrosis spells are alright in my opinion, although the teleportation spell is downright suicidal to escalate.

Nightmare spinner isn't this class's name. :smalltongue:
Dammit! Curse you WotC, for taking the good class names! :smallfurious:

This is fair.
Again. Goooooood.

While I agree that the spells in the descriptor could very well be mind-effecting, the tag is actually mind-affecting.
Potato, Potato. Wait, who says Poh-TAH-to instead of po-tay-to? :smallconfused:

Aw. I thought it was going to be literally oozing out of your body. Like, in ooze form. If I use this, I'm fluffing it like that, just so you know. :smalltongue:

I'm tempted to make a Path of the Slimedrowned now. :smalltongue:

This is pretty powerful. A gaze attack is constant, remember, making every creature in range of the nightmare sculptor constantly subject to panic, which is an encounter-ending status effect. Making it require an action would reduce its power to a nicer level, as would a daily limit, or maybe just making the status effect shaken instead. You could also reduce its effect to only affect one creature at a time with the option of not affecting anything. That would remove the problem of your allies being in range, as well as remove many problems otherwise. It still makes single- and two-enemy encounters cakewalks--especially at 12th level and past it.

Fixed. Is using your Move Action a good payoff?

It took a second reading to see why this works for the class, but I see it now. The only problem I see is that you say "A number of times equal to their Wis Mod..." That means in total, the ability only works a number of times equal to the nightmare sculptor's Wisdom modifier. Did you mean per day, per week, per month, or what?

Per day. Fixed.

Good.

Goooood.

I thought you weren't going to notate supernatural abilities. :smallamused:
You never saw that! Chuck Norris says you never saw that!

I like it. When you say dispel check, you mean with the dispel spell, you can destroy the effect, right? I just want to make sure there's no other dispel check involved here.
Dispel spell. Fixed.

Ooh. I like this.
I liked it too.

The nightmare sculptor thought aging and dying was in their head, so they can circumvent it? Okay. I can see that happening in D&D.

It's a fair capstone, I think. The bonuses are large, but not too much so.
I thought it was O.K. My mental justification was if they're powerful to stand up to Warblades and Beguilers while suffering from mental delusions or recovering from a breakdown, imagine what happens when they get over it?

Alright. For the most part, I like the class. The gaze attack is the only feature that bothered me, really.

Replies in bold.
Also, that reminds me. Tier. I'd say T3/Low T2 with effort, but i'd like a 2nd Opinion if it's possible.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-10, 03:47 PM

Alright, my first draft of the Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10531049&postcount=6) is in. The class is has a mix of influences from both the monk and the soulknife, but is solidly its own class. PEACH please! :smallsmile: I feel I may have gone a little overboard on the defensive side, though I haven't crunched any numbers yet.

For those wondering, the PP progression is as if they had a spell progression equal to:

Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1|0|--|--|--
2|1|--|--|--
3|2|--|--|--
4|3|--|--|--
5|4|--|--|--
6|4|0|--|--
7|4|1|--|--
8|4|2|--|--
9|4|3|--|--
10|4|4||--|--
11|4|4|0|--
12|4|4|1|--
13|4|4|2|--
14|4|4|3|--
15|4|4|4|--
16|4|4|4|0
17|4|4|4|1
18|4|4|4|2
19|4|4|4|3
20|4|4|4|4

Amechra

2011-03-10, 05:24 PM

I have the Dreaming system set up, and an example Dreaming.

So anyone have any comments?

Gideon Falcon

2011-03-11, 12:00 PM

MammonAzrael

2011-03-11, 04:39 PM

The Ascetic is a work of art. It's basically THE Soulknife fix, sans psychic strike and such. Psychic strike could easily be a feat or ACF for those who anxiously want it, but in any case I'm just awed by a weapon that can have a base damage of 2d12.

:smallbiggrin: Thank you, I'm really happy you like it! I could see an ACF that turned the class into a more stealthy creature.

And I went to 2d12 because I was looking at the monk and thought "...why does it stop at 2d10? It can go another step up!" And now we have a class other than barbarian that gives the maligned d12 some much-deserved love.

boomwolf

2011-03-11, 06:32 PM

Well, I'm after a rather unexplored area of "mind magic"

A full-blown telekinesis class, and not a damn caster, but a Su user.

Now, concept is that the class has a limited "kinetic power" per turn based on level, and that all uses of his telekinesis are actually "free" actions, but more powerful uses (learned later on) take increasing amount of power.

So, is you want you can use your power to make one powerful use, or multiple weaker uses, or even a ****load of very basic uses, depending on what you need that turn.

Kenshi Style for the win...

Maybe add some mind-reading abilities...(Kenshi can apparently fight pretty damn well despite being blind. and I AM trying to imitate him a bit here.)

Volthawk

2011-03-11, 06:42 PM

Hmm, I'm thinking of perhaps a class that uses mind-reading to help it in combat. Y'know, getting a small impression of where the other guy will strike to help you avoid/block it, doing the opposite to hit more accurately, that kinda thing. Maybe something along the lines of Spellthief, copying a few abilities of others, or to assist others.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-11, 11:52 PM

The ascetic is now sporting improved formatting and two alternate class features! :smallsmile:

Amechra

2011-03-12, 01:50 PM

Am considering changing my concept to something that uses Psychic Meditation (look at the WotC website) as the basis for casting.

Because that concept just hit me like a pile of bricks, and really wants to be made.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-13, 04:27 PM

I'm thinking of adding some Racial class substitutions and feats for the class. Should I add them to the class entry for the contest, or post them in this chat thread?

I will be PEACHing the other entries over the week. :smallsmile:

Temotei

2011-03-13, 08:24 PM

I'm thinking of adding some Racial class substitutions and feats for the class. Should I add them to the class entry for the contest, or post them in this chat thread?

Those can be in the class entry post.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-13, 11:51 PM

Updated the class with Racial substitution levels for Kalashtar and Xeph, and 4 feats.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-15, 03:56 AM

Thoughts while reading TheGeckoKing's The Nightmare Sculptor:

I love the creepy Inspector Gadget. :smallbiggrin:
"And then there are the special kind of fearing people?" This sentence comes off as odd, and I'm not sure what it is supposed to mean. Are you talking about people who inspire fear? People who fear and are somehow special? Something else?
The opening paragraph makes entry feel more like a narrow PrC, like the Nightmare Spinner, rather than an entire base class.
So these guys can become what they fear? Cool, thought my first thought is that it'd be better to become what others fear, specific to the individuals they're facing.
Many learn to fear them? Are they well-defined enough to not be mistaken as wizards or sorcerers the vast majority of the time? Or is this a more specific "learn to fear them" refering the the individual Sculptor, and not the class on the whole?
Adventurers - So the few people who become Nightmare Sculptors by overcoming their fears with their iron will become murderous hobos because deep down they're still trying to avoid their fears? And extreme situations can distract them from their phobia?
Religion - Needs some grammatical clean up. Tharzidun seems like an extreme choice, and I'm sure there has to be at least one god out there devoted to fear.
Background - As I said above, it feels like you're building up a "Special" entry requirement for a PrC...I think that a base class needs to be a little more widely available. I would think any suitably frightening incident could spur their magic, and perhaps some could seek it out deliberately.
Races - Can Kalashtar become Nightmare Sculptors?
Other Classes - Looks solid. It's really beating home the feeling that these guys are driven not by control of their nightmares, but nearly crippling fear of them.
Role - Looks solid. I'm currently worried about how they handle creatures immune to fear effects and those immune to mind-affecting effects, but I haven't got to the meat of the class yet.
Wisdom casting? That is a surprise, given that is seems they're plagued by their nightmares to the point of psychosis, and I thought Wisdom was the most general gauge of overall sanity?
Strange to see autohypnosis on a non-psionic class, but I can understand the reasoning. I don't feel like having access to all knowledge skills really fits, I'd be more inclined to see them with arcana, dungeoneering, religion, and the planes. Why do they get UMD?
Spell progression - This is just a personal pet peeve, but I hate that spontaneous casters get their spells a level later than prepared casters. Sorcerers would still be tier 2 if they got their spells at the same level as wizards. So I, personally, like to see classes that don't delay casting a level, unless it is for a reason much better than spontaneous casting.
Casting stats - I dislike SAD casters, preferring things like the Favored Soul. This, like the spell progression, is a personal preference. If the class requires Wisdom to determine if you can cast the spell, and your bonus spells, I'd prefer the DC to be based off of either Int or Cha.
Numb to Nightmares makes sense as a mechanic. However, it really clashes with the fluff that a large part of their paranoia is based on trying to avoid their own phobias. They can't have phobias if they're immune to fear.
Phobic Paths are interesting, and a nice way of defining your character. This could also be a way to reconcile Numb to Nightmares with the fluff. Have each phobic path specify a certain type of thing. Against the specified thing, the nightmare sculptor is not immune to fear, and can never become so.
WARNING WILL ROBINSON! DEAD LEVELS! DEAD LEVELS! Even assuming that access to a new spell level, a feat gained from your HD, or a stat boost is enough to not be "dead," the class is still sporting 7 dead levels.
Let Me Tell you a Story is interesting, but I fear it doesn't do much from a practical standpoint. Even optimizing for intimidate use, it front line friendly. And most of its uses wouldn't really qualify for a boost from skilled oratory. Not in 6 seconds. This needs a power boost...a big one. Otherwise it is almost a dead level itself.
Advanced Learning is close to a dead level, but given its history its ok.
I like Fear Me, but the DC needs some work. It should either be 14 + Wis mod (as fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fear.htm) is a 4th level spell), or 10 + half your class level + Wis mod. Additionally, I really think this needs to be supernatural, not extraordinary. The intimidate focus is the extraordiary scariness. I'd also remove the note about Fear Me Regardless (which I'll cover when I get there).
I love Share Your Worries. Make the skill bonus an insight bonus (since that is what it is), and you can remove the parts regarding stacking bonuses.
Fear Me Regardless is a very important part of this class...one that I feel needs to come earlier than 12th level. Additionally, as worded it can combine with Advanced Learning to hit creatures normally immune to mind-affecting effects with spells that are in no way fear-based. I think it needs to be rewritten as: Creatures that are immune to fear or mind-affecting effects are not immune to any fear-based spells or abilities from you.
Seeds of Paranoia is pretty cool, but not terribly useful for PCs. Most things they encounter are dead before diseases do much. Very flavorful though!
Nightmares Made Real is another cool ability that is practically useless for an adventurer. It is only effective when the Nightmare Sculptor can't do anything.
The fluff of Your Logic is Not Welcome Here is a little...odd for me to follow. while immunity to aging penalties isn't surprising, removing existing ones is highly unusual. The Greater Visage of the Deity is a good choice, though I feel like it would be better to just spell out the abilities gained.
Very strange that they gain access to all 0th level spells, as the other classes don't.
I'm going to assume that the spells are otherwise fitting with the theme of fear and nightmares. Thought BBoD does feel a little out of place.
Path of the Cerebrotic is...odd. Doesn't help that most people won't have access to Dragon 330.
Path of Confinement is great, though the fluff could use some sprucing.
Path of the Cystic - So...they're basically extremely mysophobic?
Path of the Nightbane feels way to open-ended compared to the other paths.
Path of Oblivion works in our world, but it falls apart in DnD. the afterlife is demonstratively real. Resurrection exists, you can visit dead people, and so much more. This fear is only really applicable to outsiders and other creatures that can't be raised. The spell list works, but the concept behind it doesn't.
Path of the Vermin fluff should probably be expanded to include all the crawly insects they're summoning.
Acquired Psychosis looks solid.

Final thoughts: I like the idea, and it is a good attempt at a caster in the same vein as the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. However, the few abilities it grants and the sheer number of dead levels means that as it stands this would be better as a PrC. It needs to gain some more abilities, from extra feats to Intimidate boosts and so on. You've got some great foundations, now you just need to build on them! :smallsmile:

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-15, 11:33 AM

Thoughts while reading TheGeckoKing's The Nightmare Sculptor:

I love the creepy Inspector Gadget. :smallbiggrin:
I like it too
"And then there are the special kind of fearing people?" This sentence comes off as odd, and I'm not sure what it is supposed to mean. Are you talking about people who inspire fear? People who fear and are somehow special? Something else?
Ew, I'm fixing that.
The opening paragraph makes entry feel more like a narrow PrC, like the Nightmare Spinner, rather than an entire base class.
Eh, It might work better as a Prc, but that's what the Nightmare Spinner is for.
So these guys can become what they fear? Cool, thought my first thought is that it'd be better to become what others fear, specific to the individuals they're facing.
That......would be really hard to adjudicate. Not that the Nightmare Sculptor could differentiate between their spells and their fears. Denial, ignorance, or just plain insanity help.
Many learn to fear them? Are they well-defined enough to not be mistaken as wizards or sorcerers the vast majority of the time? Or is this a more specific "learn to fear them" refering the the individual Sculptor, and not the class on the whole?
I'd say they are. They might get mixed up with Sorcerers or slightly mad Clerics though. Might put that in the fluff.
Adventurers - So the few people who become Nightmare Sculptors by overcoming their fears with their iron will become murderous hobos because deep down they're still trying to avoid their fears? And extreme situations can distract them from their phobia?
Yeah, basically. They can ignore the creeping thought for a time, but they still need something to take their mind off the nagging paranoia. And stabbing Kobolds is perfect.
Religion - Needs some grammatical clean up. Tharzidun seems like an extreme choice, and I'm sure there has to be at least one god out there devoted to fear.
Well, I couldn't find one, other than maybe Bane or Hextor, but that doesn't seem right.
Background - As I said above, it feels like you're building up a "Special" entry requirement for a PrC...I think that a base class needs to be a little more widely available. I would think any suitably frightening incident could spur their magic, and perhaps some could seek it out deliberately.
Weeeeeell.......I could tone it down from "Psychotic Breakdown" to "A deep understanding of fear". Maybe. I like it how it is.
Races - Can Kalashtar become Nightmare Sculptors?
Hard to say. They're not immune to fear, but they don't dream, so I wouldn't say they're nearly as common.
Other Classes - Looks solid. It's really beating home the feeling that these guys are driven not by control of their nightmares, but nearly crippling fear of them.
Yay!
Role - Looks solid. I'm currently worried about how they handle creatures immune to fear effects and those immune to mind-affecting effects, but I haven't got to the meat of the class yet.
I'm getting there.
Wisdom casting? That is a surprise, given that is seems they're plagued by their nightmares to the point of psychosis, and I thought Wisdom was the most general gauge of overall sanity?
Well, the better control over your fears (Thus, the higher your Sanity/Wis), the more you can use your fears. Plus, i'm sick of Wis being a Divine-Only stat.
Strange to see autohypnosis on a non-psionic class, but I can understand the reasoning. I don't feel like having access to all knowledge skills really fits, I'd be more inclined to see them with arcana, dungeoneering, religion, and the planes. Why do they get UMD?
The Knowledge Skills are because i'm of the opinion that if it reaches higher than 3 different types, just give them all the skills. UMD is because it's a caster, and I always give UMD to casters. :smalltongue:
Spell progression - This is just a personal pet peeve, but I hate that spontaneous casters get their spells a level later than prepared casters. Sorcerers would still be tier 2 if they got their spells at the same level as wizards. So I, personally, like to see classes that don't delay casting a level, unless it is for a reason much better than spontaneous casting.
I only did that because I was basing it off DN/Warmage/Beguiler. They seem to do just fine (Warmage has other problems that aren't hard to guess).
Casting stats - I dislike SAD casters, preferring things like the Favored Soul. This, like the spell progression, is a personal preference. If the class requires Wisdom to determine if you can cast the spell, and your bonus spells, I'd prefer the DC to be based off of either Int or Cha.
And I tend to hate MAD casters unless it's called for, like the Archivist. I don't think it needs to be MAD considering the spell progression.
Numb to Nightmares makes sense as a mechanic. However, it really clashes with the fluff that a large part of their paranoia is based on trying to avoid their own phobias. They can't have phobias if they're immune to fear.
Just because they're not afraid of the silly Orc trying to intimidate them doesn't mean they can't fear other things. But I can amend this easily.
Phobic Paths are interesting, and a nice way of defining your character. This could also be a way to reconcile Numb to Nightmares with the fluff. Have each phobic path specify a certain type of thing. Against the specified thing, the nightmare sculptor is not immune to fear, and can never become so.
Will Do.
WARNING WILL ROBINSON! DEAD LEVELS! DEAD LEVELS! Even assuming that access to a new spell level, a feat gained from your HD, or a stat boost is enough to not be "dead," the class is still sporting 7 dead levels.
I didn't want the class to be full of little useless abilities like the last class I made, or god forbid, The Monk.
Let Me Tell you a Story is interesting, but I fear it doesn't do much from a practical standpoint. Even optimizing for intimidate use, it front line friendly. And most of its uses wouldn't really qualify for a boost from skilled oratory. Not in 6 seconds. This needs a power boost...a big one. Otherwise it is almost a dead level itself.
I can fix the power level, if that's bugging you.
Advanced Learning is close to a dead level, but given its history its ok.
I like Fear Me, but the DC needs some work. It should either be 14 + Wis mod (as fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fear.htm) is a 4th level spell), or 10 + half your class level + Wis mod. Additionally, I really think this needs to be supernatural, not extraordinary. The intimidate focus is the extraordiary scariness. I'd also remove the note about Fear Me Regardless (which I'll cover when I get there).
No, it was supposed to be half your class level, I just can't read.
I love Share Your Worries. Make the skill bonus an insight bonus (since that is what it is), and you can remove the parts regarding stacking bonuses.
Fear Me Regardless is a very important part of this class...one that I feel needs to come earlier than 12th level. Additionally, as worded it can combine with Advanced Learning to hit creatures normally immune to mind-affecting effects with spells that are in no way fear-based. I think it needs to be rewritten as: Creatures that are immune to fear or mind-affecting effects are not immune to any fear-based spells or abilities from you.
It was meant to be like that, actually, so your 5 spells from AL wouldn't be useless because they weren't fear based. Yes it's a Fear Class, but we don't want to confine them to the same spells.
Seeds of Paranoia is pretty cool, but not terribly useful for PCs. Most things they encounter are dead before diseases do much. Very flavorful though!
I guess it'll do. I've seen/made worse.
Nightmares Made Real is another cool ability that is practically useless for an adventurer. It is only effective when the Nightmare Sculptor can't do anything.
Yes, but you can go to sleep whenever you like, as long as you have protection so you don't get insta-ganked.
The fluff of Your Logic is Not Welcome Here is a little...odd for me to follow. while immunity to aging penalties isn't surprising, removing existing ones is highly unusual. The Greater Visage of the Deity is a good choice, though I feel like it would be better to just spell out the abilities gained.
This class assumes the player already has the SpC, so I don't think the copypasta is warranted.
Very strange that they gain access to all 0th level spells, as the other classes don't.
I'm lazy and there were about 2 cantrips that fit the class. So shoot me. :smalltongue:
I'm going to assume that the spells are otherwise fitting with the theme of fear and nightmares. Thought BBoD does feel a little out of place.
Everything is better with evil swords. Everything.
Path of the Cerebrotic is...odd. Doesn't help that most people won't have access to Dragon 330.
It was an add-on because I really like that feat.
Path of Confinement is great, though the fluff could use some sprucing.
Done.
Path of the Cystic - So...they're basically extremely mysophobic?
Yeah.
Path of the Nightbane feels way to open-ended compared to the other paths.
Basically, all of the Shadow/Darkness spells I found were very specific (one was making a bridge from shadows :smallconfused:), other than the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation/Shades, which were a given.
Path of Oblivion works in our world, but it falls apart in DnD. the afterlife is demonstratively real. Resurrection exists, you can visit dead people, and so much more. This fear is only really applicable to outsiders and other creatures that can't be raised. The spell list works, but the concept behind it doesn't.
Honestly? Only the real nutjobs are going to pick this path, because at their level of thinking, logic just doesn't want to be near them. Think of someone so paranoid, they abhor death because they just don't trust anyone about what happens.
Path of the Vermin fluff should probably be expanded to include all the crawly insects they're summoning.
Sure.
Acquired Psychosis looks solid.
Gotcha.

Final thoughts: I like the idea, and it is a good attempt at a caster in the same vein as the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. However, the few abilities it grants and the sheer number of dead levels means that as it stands this would be better as a PrC. It needs to gain some more abilities, from extra feats to Intimidate boosts and so on. You've got some great foundations, now you just need to build on them! :smallsmile:

Replies in bold.
Also, you speak of other class abilities, but I can't think of anything. What do you suggest?

MammonAzrael

2011-03-15, 03:50 PM

"And then there are the special kind of fearing people?" This sentence comes off as odd, and I'm not sure what it is supposed to mean. Are you talking about people who inspire fear? People who fear and are somehow special? Something else?
Ew, I'm fixing that.

Looks good.

So these guys can become what they fear? Cool, thought my first thought is that it'd be better to become what others fear, specific to the individuals they're facing.
That......would be really hard to adjudicate. Not that the Nightmare Sculptor could differentiate between their spells and their fears. Denial, ignorance, or just plain insanity help.

Understandable, I'll mention some ideas farther down.

Adventurers - So the few people who become Nightmare Sculptors by overcoming their fears with their iron will become murderous hobos because deep down they're still trying to avoid their fears? And extreme situations can distract them from their phobia?
Yeah, basically. They can ignore the creeping thought for a time, but they still need something to take their mind off the nagging paranoia. And stabbing Kobolds is perfect.

Fair enough, this works. As long as you change Numb to Fear so their phobia still frightens them.

Religion - Needs some grammatical clean up. Tharzidun seems like an extreme choice, and I'm sure there has to be at least one god out there devoted to fear.
Well, I couldn't find one, other than maybe Bane or Hextor, but that doesn't seem right.

Yeah, I can't think of one either, otherwise I would've mentioned them. :smalltongue:

Background - As I said above, it feels like you're building up a "Special" entry requirement for a PrC...I think that a base class needs to be a little more widely available. I would think any suitably frightening incident could spur their magic, and perhaps some could seek it out deliberately.
Weeeeeell.......I could tone it down from "Psychotic Breakdown" to "A deep understanding of fear". Maybe. I like it how it is.

Fair enough, its your class. I stand by the feeling that its just too specific for a base class...but it is purely flavor, so it should be fine.

Races - Can Kalashtar become Nightmare Sculptors?
Hard to say. They're not immune to fear, but they don't dream, so I wouldn't say they're nearly as common.

Well it depends, I'd say, on if you use the term nightmare figuratively or literally. Note that a kalashtar can't make use of Nightmares Made Real.

Wisdom casting? That is a surprise, given that is seems they're plagued by their nightmares to the point of psychosis, and I thought Wisdom was the most general gauge of overall sanity?
Well, the better control over your fears (Thus, the higher your Sanity/Wis), the more you can use your fears. Plus, i'm sick of Wis being a Divine-Only stat.

Fair enough.

Strange to see autohypnosis on a non-psionic class, but I can understand the reasoning. I don't feel like having access to all knowledge skills really fits, I'd be more inclined to see them with arcana, dungeoneering, religion, and the planes. Why do they get UMD?
The Knowledge Skills are because i'm of the opinion that if it reaches higher than 3 different types, just give them all the skills. UMD is because it's a caster, and I always give UMD to casters.

Fair enough with the knowledge skills, though I can't recall any class that weren't Int based gaining access to all of them, which is what makes it stand out. And UMD on casters I can understand as a personal preference. It stands out because casters don't get UMD (beguiler gets it from his rogue side, not caster). You know that casters don't need UMD to activate a wand or such if the spell is on their list, right?

Spell progression - This is just a personal pet peeve, but I hate that spontaneous casters get their spells a level later than prepared casters. Sorcerers would still be tier 2 if they got their spells at the same level as wizards. So I, personally, like to see classes that don't delay casting a level, unless it is for a reason much better than spontaneous casting.
I only did that because I was basing it off DN/Warmage/Beguiler. They seem to do just fine (Warmage has other problems that aren't hard to guess).

I can understand this, and can't look down on it much. Though I'd houserule all those classes to a better progression, that is solidly a houserule.

Casting stats - I dislike SAD casters, preferring things like the Favored Soul. This, like the spell progression, is a personal preference. If the class requires Wisdom to determine if you can cast the spell, and your bonus spells, I'd prefer the DC to be based off of either Int or Cha.
And I tend to hate MAD casters unless it's called for, like the Archivist. I don't think it needs to be MAD considering the spell progression.

What constitutes "calling for it?" Casting is already the most powerful ability in the game, why does it inherently get to be SAD as well? I mean, I prefer SADness when I'm optimizing, but in general I feel like a dependency on three attributes is just good class design. And no, I don't consider Dex and Con real attributes the class needs; they're just the dumpstats that offer the best extras.

Numb to Nightmares makes sense as a mechanic. However, it really clashes with the fluff that a large part of their paranoia is based on trying to avoid their own phobias. They can't have phobias if they're immune to fear.
Just because they're not afraid of the silly Orc trying to intimidate them doesn't mean they can't fear other things. But I can amend this easily.

Phobic Paths are interesting, and a nice way of defining your character. This could also be a way to reconcile Numb to Nightmares with the fluff. Have each phobic path specify a certain type of thing. Against the specified thing, the nightmare sculptor is not immune to fear, and can never become so.
Will Do.

Looking forward to the revisions.

WARNING WILL ROBINSON! DEAD LEVELS! DEAD LEVELS! Even assuming that access to a new spell level, a feat gained from your HD, or a stat boost is enough to not be "dead," the class is still sporting 7 dead levels.
I didn't want the class to be full of little useless abilities like the last class I made, or god forbid, The Monk.

Even minor abilities are better than nothing at all. The monk would not be improved simply be removing all its useless abilities and not replacing them with anything. :smalltongue:

Let Me Tell you a Story is interesting, but I fear it doesn't do much from a practical standpoint. Even optimizing for intimidate use, it front line friendly. And most of its uses wouldn't really qualify for a boost from skilled oratory. Not in 6 seconds. This needs a power boost...a big one. Otherwise it is almost a dead level itself.
I can fix the power level, if that's bugging you.

*nod* I'm just not feeling it as it stands. The flavor is obviously telling the target a scary story in some fashion, which doesn't translate well to a 6 second round, and the other requirements of demoralizing actions.

Fear Me Regardless is a very important part of this class...one that I feel needs to come earlier than 12th level. Additionally, as worded it can combine with Advanced Learning to hit creatures normally immune to mind-affecting effects with spells that are in no way fear-based. I think it needs to be rewritten as: Creatures that are immune to fear or mind-affecting effects are not immune to any fear-based spells or abilities from you.
It was meant to be like that, actually, so your 5 spells from AL wouldn't be useless because they weren't fear based. Yes it's a Fear Class, but we don't want to confine them to the same spells.

I can understand that, and support it. The problem comes from the fluff and crunch clashing, as if you are casting something like irresistible dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm) or sympathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sympathy.htm) you clearly aren't doing something fear-based to the target.

Seeds of Paranoia is pretty cool, but not terribly useful for PCs. Most things they encounter are dead before diseases do much. Very flavorful though!
I guess it'll do. I've seen/made worse.

From a PC standpoint, I feel like this is one of those small monk-like abilities you didn't want to fill the class with in the first place. :smallsmile: I'm not saying you should scrap it, just that disease is never going to be a major part of a PC's arsenal (unless they're a Cancer Mage).

Nightmares Made Real is another cool ability that is practically useless for an adventurer. It is only effective when the Nightmare Sculptor can't do anything.
Yes, but you can go to sleep whenever you like, as long as you have protection so you don't get insta-ganked.

Yes, assuming your DM says that you can fall asleep. And then the player just sits there and...sleeps for round after round while everyone else gets to fight. It is awesomely flavorful, but practically useless.

The fluff of Your Logic is Not Welcome Here is a little...odd for me to follow. while immunity to aging penalties isn't surprising, removing existing ones is highly unusual. The Greater Visage of the Deity is a good choice, though I feel like it would be better to just spell out the abilities gained.
This class assumes the player already has the SpC, so I don't think the copypasta is warranted.

Fair enough. Though I still find the fact that it removes previously accrued age penalties odd.

Very strange that they gain access to all 0th level spells, as the other classes don't.
I'm lazy and there were about 2 cantrips that fit the class. So shoot me.

:smalltongue:

I'm going to assume that the spells are otherwise fitting with the theme of fear and nightmares. Thought BBoD does feel a little out of place.
Everything is better with evil swords. Everything.

BBoD is not an evil spell, and how dare you imply otherwise! :smallsmile:

Path of the Cerebrotic is...odd. Doesn't help that most people won't have access to Dragon 330.
It was an add-on because I really like that feat.

*nod* Fair enough. Though I'm still not sure what exactly they're scared of.

Path of the Nightbane feels way to open-ended compared to the other paths.
Basically, all of the Shadow/Darkness spells I found were very specific (one was making a bridge from shadows ), other than the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation/Shades, which were a given.

As long as you're aware that this is the most versatile path by far.

Path of Oblivion works in our world, but it falls apart in DnD. the afterlife is demonstratively real. Resurrection exists, you can visit dead people, and so much more. This fear is only really applicable to outsiders and other creatures that can't be raised. The spell list works, but the concept behind it doesn't.
Honestly? Only the real nutjobs are going to pick this path, because at their level of thinking, logic just doesn't want to be near them. Think of someone so paranoid, they abhor death because they just don't trust anyone about what happens.

This needs to be included in the fluff! Their paranoia is such that they refuse to accept any rational arguments, or even proof of an afterlife or anything like that. Helps bring home the insanity.

Also, you speak of other class abilities, but I can't think of anything. What do you suggest?

*cracks knuckles* Ok, now for some mechanical suggestions. Remember that these are quick brainstorms. Its still your class, so I just want to give you some inspiration, and not writing full abilities. It is still a competition, after all! :smallwink:

Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a bonus feat.
LMTYaS gives a flat competence bonus to Intimidate, like the Samurai's Staredown. In addition, perhaps spend a full-round action to tell a brief tale or something that affects all (enemies) within a certain range that can hear you. This could induce shaken for a round, frightened later, possibly for CHA rounds so the longer you tell your story, the more scared your enemies will be.
As mentioned, the Phobic paths still need to induce fear in the nightmare sculptor. Perhaps they are not immune to certain effects and abilities that are based on that phobia? And whenever they are confronted by their phobia they become shaken/frightened/panicked?
They could gain limited telepathy, and be able to rummage around the minds of those close, gaining a bonus to the DC of their fear effects, able to project fear directly into the minds of others, and so on.
They could have a limited polymorph ability, when they have pre-set bonuses, or a list of bonuses they can choose from to mix and match, that represents them turning into what their opponents fear.
While sleeping they can summon their nightmares into consolidated shapes of shadow and darkness, being able to cast limited Summon Monster spells while sleeping.
Perhaps a way to influence, coerce, suggest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm), command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm), or dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominateMonster.htm) those suffering from your fear effects?

I hope these help! :smallsmile:

MammonAzrael

2011-03-15, 07:35 PM

Thoughts while reading unosarta's Warrior Poet:

"stand of grass, strand of lightning" I wouldn't repeat strand, it feels odd when describing lightning. Thread might work.
A lot of repetition in the first paragraph. I can't decide if I feel like its building up, or just repeating itself.
Adventurers - So they adventure to improve themselves, and to enlighten the world with story and song? I have to admit, I was initially picturing something more peaceable and exploratory, who traveled the world to learn and share stories of their exploits, while honing their ability to have more such exploits.
Characteristics - I'd change it to "use the abilities of the Sublime Way," as I don't believe it is called the nine swords in-world (it is called the Nine Disciplines, which obviously doesn't work given their use of the homebrew school, and blade magic; see page 5 of ToB).
Alignment - So the class as a whole tends to favor lawful alignments? Then I'd replace the word "some" in the second sentence with "most."
Religion - Adding in a few actual names of gods would be a nice touch.
Races - I think saying less intelligent would be smoother than stupider in the third sentence.
I would think they'd get along well with warblades at least, given that they study a of the same things, and are generally very intelligent. I could see some uncultured friction, though. How do they feel about casters? Rogues? Bards?
Why do they get Listen and Spot as Class skills? Additionally, most classes just get "Perform" as a class skill, not two specific instances of it only. Why did you go this route?
6 SP a level seems high for a class that thus far has come off as fairly martially focused, and when Skill Monkey was not one of their recommended roles (especially since they already have a large Int focus).
Why do they not have a good fortitude save, as Constitution has already been mentioned as a relevant ability, and they are clearly intended to be tough front line fighters?
Why do they have good reflex and will saves? Neither dexterity or wisdom have been mentioned as being important, and I've seen nothing to make me think they are particularly strong of mind of quick of reflex. Frankly, the saves are the complete opposite of what I was expecting.
The lesser, greater, and artisan songs are all on the wrong levels on the table.
The dead levels all come when you gain access to a new level of maneuvers, so that should be ok. Except for 19th level.
So this class has full BAB and has more maneuvers known, readied, and stances than Warblade? This needs to be toned down. The Warblade focuses on nothing but battle, so a class that divides it's focus should not be out performing it. its like you're taking the best parts of the swordsage and warblade and combining them without trying to balance against wide-accepted good classes.
Proficiencies look good, though they further enforce my belief that this class needs a good fort save and poor Will (on the fence about Ref)
Maneuvers - I'm not going to read through Open Tome, so I'm going off the assumption that it is balanced in line with the other disciplines.
Nice of you to include the IL table for those without ToB access or knowledge.
Maneuvers Readied - So the warrior poet can use the same maneuver round after round? Chance are combat will rarely last long enough for him to expend all this SotP uses. This recovery method, I feel, is too easy and repeatable and abusable. I like that it's tied into their class feature, but still...too easy. The Warblade's is the best because of their dedicated martial focus, a class that doesn't focus solely on combat should not have a recovery method that is even better.
Stances Known - same number as a swordsage, and earlier. This needs to be toned down.
Song of the Poet - What action does it take to use?
Least Songs - Why would you ever grant the attack bonus to yourself instead of reducing the target's AC (something your party members can benefit from)? My first instinct is that these various bonuses and penalties are too strong, but given that they last only a round I can't define it better than that.
Lesser Songs - What does Bonus to combat maneuvers mean? The temp HP and healing, while different, feel redundant.
Greater Songs - I think part of my issue is that the penalties are all based on the character's Int modifier. Not only does this scale with level to some impressive heights at later levels, but I don't understand why this is all Int based and not Cha based. The Int focus implies that they are making reasoned and logical arguments or something, which just isn't working in my mind. I do like the goading option.
Artisan Songs - What is the DR overcome by? Allies cannot be affected by the keen edge or greater magic weapon spells (their equipment can be). And why the bonus to Dex and metal ability of choice? :smallconfused:
Battle Poetry - This is nearly flat out better than the Warblades equivalent abilities. This needs to be toned down and brought in line with that. I'd like to see some fluff for the ability as well, explaining how your Int can affect these rolls.
Tactics of the Warrior - I'm glad to see tactical feats getting some love here.
Quickened Poetry - Its a good ability, and I understand that you went with a free action instead of a swift one so warrior poets can still use boosts. Still, when I see the descriptor "quickened" I automatically think "swift action." Perhaps another name that has the same meaning, but avoids the connotation of a swift action?
Songstrike - Mechanically, I like it, though I don't understand why they can only use it once per day. Once per encounter seems more fitting. From a flavor standpoint...I don't get it at all. I have no picture of what the warrior poet is doing here, and there is no description to help me along.

Final thoughts: There are some great things here, though I feel it needs to be compared to the swordsage and warblade and balanced appropriately. I like the party buffing angle. I'm still unsure why the character uses intelligence instead of charisma, as it seems like all of it's flavorful abilities are solidly bard-like. Finally...I didn't ever really get the feeling the class was using it's mind all that much. I suppose that is where the Int focus comes into play, but for me at least, it just feels forced and unnatural. Now if this class and the flavor took on a much more tactical angle (like the cogitator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10291277&postcount=10)), it would completely understandable.

unosarta

2011-03-15, 08:57 PM

Thoughts while reading unosarta's Warrior Poet:
"stand of grass, strand of lightning" I wouldn't repeat strand, it feels odd when describing lightning. Thread might work.
Good catch.

A lot of repetition in the first paragraph. I can't decide if I feel like its building up, or just repeating itself.
The repetition is intentional.

Adventurers - So they adventure to improve themselves, and to enlighten the world with story and song? I have to admit, I was initially picturing something more peaceable and exploratory, who traveled the world to learn and share stories of their exploits, while honing their ability to have more such exploits.
What makes you think those things are separate? First of all, taking to much of a "bard" feel or outlook with this class is a bad idea. The Warrior Poet is not the bard. They take quite different outlooks on life as they know it. Bards tend to be more free and peaceful, certainly. The Warrior Poet hones themselves on the grinding stone of war.

Characteristics - I'd change it to "use the abilities of the Sublime Way," as I don't believe it is called the nine swords in-world (it is called the Nine Disciplines, which obviously doesn't work given their use of the homebrew school, and blade magic; see page 5 of ToB).
Fine by me.

Alignment - So the class as a whole tends to favor lawful alignments? Then I'd replace the word "some" in the second sentence with "most."
No. A few tend to favor law over chaos. There are chaotic Warrior Poets, but in slightly fewer number than the lawful ones. The wording was intentional, even if it does seem kind of awkward.

Religion - Adding in a few actual names of gods would be a nice touch.
I was trying to keep it without references to campaigns. Art and song focused gods will change depending on the setting, so that was kind of intentional. There aren't any in the standard setting, besides maybe Corellon Larethian. I will be adding in that they also worship war gods.

Races - I think saying less intelligent would be smoother than stupider in the third sentence.
Fine by me.

I would think they'd get along well with warblades at least, given that they study a of the same things, and are generally very intelligent. I could see some uncultured friction, though. How do they feel about casters? Rogues? Bards?
I will update with more reactions.

Why do they get Listen and Spot as Class skills? Additionally, most classes just get "Perform" as a class skill, not two specific instances of it only. Why did you go this route?
Because they are A) important skills for anyone to have, and B) they make sense for the class. A Warrior, honed in the battlefield. Being able to see and find enemies makes a lot of sense. In addition, the Poet uses his or her senses in order to describe the world, in order to find the right words to show what they see, what they hear, what they sense, what they taste, and what they feel. Being able to see and hear better makes quite a bite of sense.

As for Perform; I could easily make it all of the skills. I just thought that it would make sense if the class itself didn't in fact learn to play instruments, or to become a comedian, but to use words.

6 SP a level seems high for a class that thus far has come off as fairly martially focused, and when Skill Monkey was not one of their recommended roles (especially since they already have a large Int focus).
I could easily add in that role to the description.

Why do they not have a good fortitude save, as Constitution has already been mentioned as a relevant ability, and they are clearly intended to be tough front line fighters?
It could be done.

Why do they have good reflex and will saves? Neither dexterity or wisdom have been mentioned as being important, and I've seen nothing to make me think they are particularly strong of mind of quick of reflex. Frankly, the saves are the complete opposite of what I was expecting.
Just because an ability is "good" for them does not mean that they do not deserve a save for that ability. The main idea behind the Warrior Poet mechanically is that they are lightly armored melee combatants, who have a more "magical" focus, in the sense that they use Intelligence, they have a role that is primarily done by magical classes, and they are more "spiritual" so to speak.

The lesser, greater, and artisan songs are all on the wrong levels on the table.
In fact, they are wrong in the text. I will clarify.

The dead levels all come when you gain access to a new level of maneuvers, so that should be ok. Except for 19th level.
Earlier in the thread, I asked for ideas that anyone had for abilities that could come in at any of the levels. Do you have a suggestion?

So this class has full BAB and has more maneuvers known, readied, and stances than Warblade? This needs to be toned down. The Warblade focuses on nothing but battle, so a class that divides it's focus should not be out performing it. its like you're taking the best parts of the swordsage and warblade and combining them without trying to balance against wide-accepted good classes.
3/4s BAB is fine by me.

Proficiencies look good, though they further enforce my belief that this class needs a good fort save and poor Will (on the fence about Ref)
... Why?

Maneuvers - I'm not going to read through Open Tome, so I'm going off the assumption that it is balanced in line with the other disciplines.
Others have critiqued it.

Maneuvers Readied - So the warrior poet can use the same maneuver round after round? Chance are combat will rarely last long enough for him to expend all this SotP uses. This recovery method, I feel, is too easy and repeatable and abusable. I like that it's tied into their class feature, but still...too easy. The Warblade's is the best because of their dedicated martial focus, a class that doesn't focus solely on combat should not have a recovery method that is even better.
Just as a note, look at the action requirement of the Song of the Poet ability. Move action. Which means, realistically, that the Warrior Poet will only ever be able to use the ability when he doesn't move, or when he doesn't attack. I will probably be changing the recovery to be when he makes a non-strike melee attack, but he cannot move when he does it, or at least he cannot move when he is lower than 10th level. The Warblade's recovery is actively better than the Warrior Poet. Really. The Warrior Poet can recover at most one maneuver per round. He can make a strike and can also use his swift actions, this is true. However, the Warblade also recovers all of his maneuvers at once. At higher levels, it is highly unlikely that the Warblade will be able to use every single maneuver he has readied, unless he focuses on using boosts and counters, which isn't likely, since his disciplines don't really support that role. The Warrior Poet has disciplines that focus equally or more on boosts and counters, and less on strikes. This means that the Warrior Poet is very, very likely to be using his maneuvers twice as quickly as the Warblade, since he will want to be using a Strike every round, and a boost. This is fine, and supported by the system, since the Warrior Poet only has a certain number of times that he can use them. However, whereas the Warblade can ready all of them at a standard+Swift action, the Warrior Poet can ready 1 of them as, essentially, a move action. Yes, this move action still gives the Warrior Poet a benefit, but it still only recovers one maneuver. The Warrior Poets are very likely far more maneuver starved than a Warblade. So, at some point, the Warrior Poet will have to stop, and use his song of the Poet ability and a strike. He isn't necessarily that penalized for doing this, and that is something that I will rectify by making it a non-strike melee attack, as a standard action. That way it should be a little bit better.

And the uses for SotP are still fairly limited. If the Warrior Poet doesn't focus entirely on Intelligence, they will probably have at most 3 uses at earlier levels. As they level, this number is unlikely to increase past 8 at the most, and will more than likely remain closer to 6 or 7. If they are attempting to use it every round, which they most likely will be doing past tenth level, then they have roughly 6 rounds that they will be able to keep it up. After that, they will be unable to keep it up. Considering how much boosting it by that much at that level is, it will be more likely at 5 uses. 5 rounds may seem like more than some encounters last (although I wouldn't necessarily agree with that), the fact remains that, unlike every other recovery method, it is limited by a certain number per encounter. So, if the character is foreseeing that they will be using a lot of maneuvers, they will want to conserve the uses they have. But the only way to do that is to invest no small strategy in the character. Thus, the very class itself encourages players to use their minds in order to optimize how they do things. For some encounters, they will be using all of their uses as fast as possible, because either time is a factor, or they simply know that the enemy is easy to kill.

However, that added aspect of strategy in the class is something that I like, and something that I was hoping to keep in the class.

Stances Known - same number as a swordsage, and earlier. This needs to be toned down.
Easily done.

Song of the Poet - What action does it take to use?
Move.

Least Songs - Why would you ever grant the attack bonus to yourself
instead of reducing the target's AC (something your party members can benefit from)? My first instinct is that these various bonuses and penalties are too strong, but given that they last only a round I can't define it better than that.
Maybe change it to penalty to armor class for the Warrior Poet? That wouldn't be bad.

Lesser Songs - What does Bonus to combat maneuvers mean? The temp HP and healing, while different, feel redundant.
Combat maneuvers= Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, and Disarm. I will clarify.

Greater Songs - I think part of my issue is that the penalties are all based on the character's Int modifier. Not only does this scale with level to some impressive heights at later levels, but I don't understand why this is all Int based and not Cha based. The Int focus implies that they are making reasoned and logical arguments or something, which just isn't working in my mind. I do like the goading option.
Basically, think of it this way; Charisma is force of personality. The Warrior Poet is not using his force of personality to make enemies feel bad about themselves. Comparatively; the Marshal uses only his force of personality to encourage allies. It doesn't matter what he says, he could say "Chickens!" for all it matters, it would still make his allies encouraged, boost them, grant them energy. It is less the fact that the Marshal is saying something that makes them feel better, but more so the fact that he is saying something at all, or in most cases, that he is even there at all. The Warrior Poet, by contrast uses the words to grant his allies bonuses. He uses words only, and that is part of the reason that they last for so short of a time. Force of personality will be much, much more powerful, because most every creature can respond much better to empathy than they can to simple words; but words can be just as deep, just as powerful, and just as moving. The Warrior Poet uses the words. It mentions this in the Adventure section as well; he does not adventure so simply to cut through any ignorance, although that may be a part of it as well. In reality, most Warrior Poets adventure to find the words they are missing, to find the final lyric that will make them understand what they are for.

Artisan Songs - What is the DR overcome by? Allies cannot be affected by the keen edge or greater magic weapon spells (their equipment can be). And why the bonus to Dex and metal ability of choice? :smallconfused:
Thinking Adamatine. I will edit that to clarify. Dex+Mental ability score; basically, I wanted to create an effect for classes that were not melee. The only non-melee classes want either a Mental ability score, or Dexterity, pretty much. However, most every class benefits from Constitution, so the melee choice is probably inherently better than those effects separate. Also, the Warrior Poet is a melee character, so they would probably also want that more than Dex or a mental ability score. Thus, the solution seemed to be to increase Dexterity and a mental ability score, since Dexterity is also a good score for casters and other non-melee characters.

Battle Poetry - This is nearly flat out better than the Warblades equivalent abilities. This needs to be toned down and brought in line with that. I'd like to see some fluff for the ability as well, explaining how your Int can affect these rolls.
Yeah, I can see that the bonuses are all around too much better than the Warblade. Any ideas for effects that would make more sense and be less general?

Tactics of the Warrior - I'm glad to see tactical feats getting some love here.
Seriously. My first idea was a Sublime base class that focused on tactical feats.

Quickened Poetry - Its a good ability, and I understand that you went with a free action instead of a swift one so warrior poets can still use boosts. Still, when I see the descriptor "quickened" I automatically think "swift action." Perhaps another name that has the same meaning, but avoids the connotation of a swift action?
Fine by me.

Songstrike - Mechanically, I like it, though I don't understand why they can only use it once per day. Once per encounter seems more fitting. From a flavor standpoint...I don't get it at all. I have no picture of what the warrior poet is doing here, and there is no description to help me along.
Once per encounter is fine by me. I will update the fluff.

Final thoughts: There are some great things here, though I feel it needs to be compared to the swordsage and warblade and balanced appropriately. I like the party buffing angle. I'm still unsure why the character uses intelligence instead of charisma, as it seems like all of it's flavorful abilities are solidly bard-like. Finally...I didn't ever really get the feeling the class was using it's mind all that much. I suppose that is where the Int focus comes into play, but for me at least, it just feels forced and unnatural. Now if this class and the flavor took on a much more tactical angle (like the cogitator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10291277&postcount=10)), it would completely understandable.
See above for Charisma and Intelligence.

[Edit]:... and fully updated.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-16, 01:35 AM

What makes you think those things are separate? First of all, taking to much of a "bard" feel or outlook with this class is a bad idea. The Warrior Poet is not the bard. They take quite different outlooks on life as they know it. Bards tend to be more free and peaceful, certainly. The Warrior Poet hones themselves on the grinding stone of war.

Well the paragraph feels very aggressive and martially focused. but fair enough that I may have had too much bard in my mental image.

Fine by me.

Nine swords still needs to be changed to Sublime Way.

I was trying to keep it without references to campaigns. Art and song focused gods will change depending on the setting, so that was kind of intentional. There aren't any in the standard setting, besides maybe Corellon Larethian. I will be adding in that they also worship war gods.

Fair enough.

I will update with more reactions.

Looks good.

Because they are A) important skills for anyone to have, and B) they make sense for the class. A Warrior, honed in the battlefield. Being able to see and find enemies makes a lot of sense. In addition, the Poet uses his or her senses in order to describe the world, in order to find the right words to show what they see, what they hear, what they sense, what they taste, and what they feel. Being able to see and hear better makes quite a bite of sense.

As for Perform; I could easily make it all of the skills. I just thought that it would make sense if the class itself didn't in fact learn to play instruments, or to become a comedian, but to use words.

Fair enough that they're important skills. Perhaps they could receive their Int as a bonus to Listen and Spot checks, to represent their shard focus on the world around them (since Wis is a natural dump stat). I can understand the Perform limitation.

I could easily add in that role to the description.

I feel like they have too many rolls they can manage. Especially with their high Int, they're going to have a lot of skill points. Personally I think 4 + Int makes more sense, but ultimately it isn't a major thing.

Just because an ability is "good" for them does not mean that they do not deserve a save for that ability. The main idea behind the Warrior Poet mechanically is that they are lightly armored melee combatants, who have a more "magical" focus, in the sense that they use Intelligence, they have a role that is primarily done by magical classes, and they are more "spiritual" so to speak.

What is this primary role they have that is usually taken by spell casters? De/buffing? They doesn't prevent them from contributing to attacks and laying down the hurt. I can understand the Reflex save, but the good Will still feels off to me, as the doesn't seem particularly strong in that way. I think Battle Poetry represents their strong mind well enough.

Earlier in the thread, I asked for ideas that anyone had for abilities that could come in at any of the levels. Do you have a suggestion?

Hmm...well its at 19th level, so it should be strong. My instinct is to have it focus on the poet side of this warrior, as that feels secondary to the Sublime side to me. At this point nothing is really coming to me, but I'll let you know if I have any ideas.

3/4s BAB is fine by me.

Oh, I like that a lot better.

... Why?

Well given everything else it had, it just felt very much like a front line character that dabbled in some de/buffing. And very rarely do I picture classes like that having a weak Fortitude save.

Others have critiqued it.

Pretty much what I figured.

Recovery reasoning...[/quote ]

Fair enough. And I like the change to a non-strike melee attack. You may want to change it to an attack though, so he isn't screwed if he misses. And the number of SotP uses seem good.

[quote]Easily done.

Awesome.

Maybe change it to penalty to armor class for the Warrior Poet? That wouldn't be bad.

Or make the penalty half the poets Int bonus. That gives it a choice that can benefit your allies, but there is a trade off.

Combat maneuvers= Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, and Disarm. I will clarify.

Can't boost Sunder attempts, eh? I guess Warrior Poets are against the destruction of loot. :smallamused:

Basically, think of it this way; Charisma is force of personality. The Warrior Poet is not using his force of personality to make enemies feel bad about themselves. Comparatively; the Marshal uses only his force of personality to encourage allies. It doesn't matter what he says, he could say "Chickens!" for all it matters, it would still make his allies encouraged, boost them, grant them energy. It is less the fact that the Marshal is saying something that makes them feel better, but more so the fact that he is saying something at all, or in most cases, that he is even there at all. The Warrior Poet, by contrast uses the words to grant his allies bonuses. He uses words only, and that is part of the reason that they last for so short of a time. Force of personality will be much, much more powerful, because most every creature can respond much better to empathy than they can to simple words; but words can be just as deep, just as powerful, and just as moving. The Warrior Poet uses the words. It mentions this in the Adventure section as well; he does not adventure so simply to cut through any ignorance, although that may be a part of it as well. In reality, most Warrior Poets adventure to find the words they are missing, to find the final lyric that will make them understand what they are for.

Ok. I think the name of SotP could be changed to something that implies that shorter duration, like Tactical Verse, and his words are guiding his allies or distracting/misdirecting his enemies. Other than that, well explained. Thanks.

Thinking Adamatine. I will edit that to clarify. Dex+Mental ability score; basically, I wanted to create an effect for classes that were not melee. The only non-melee classes want either a Mental ability score, or Dexterity, pretty much. However, most every class benefits from Constitution, so the melee choice is probably inherently better than those effects separate. Also, the Warrior Poet is a melee character, so they would probably also want that more than Dex or a mental ability score. Thus, the solution seemed to be to increase Dexterity and a mental ability score, since Dexterity is also a good score for casters and other non-melee characters.

Ok...now is it DR/adamantine and magic, or DR/adamantine or magic? :smalltongue:

And fair enough on the ability boost.

Yeah, I can see that the bonuses are all around too much better than the Warblade. Any ideas for effects that would make more sense and be less general?

As I suggested earlier, he could gain his Int to listen, Perform, and Spot checks and the Int to Will is good, as is the final damage bonus. The bonus to attack rolls is the major issue here, and I'm not sure what a good replacement would be. Perhaps you could make a number of AoOs equal to your Int mod, or your could add it to your AC for 1 round when you used your SotP. Maybe you add it to you AC against AoO?

Once per encounter is fine by me. I will update the fluff.

The fluff is a good short explanation. You may want to make a note of the minimum number of SotP uses you need to use it, as I don't think your vision includes using all your SotP uses for the encounter, and then using Songstrike.

[Edit]:... and fully updated.

Looking good!

NineThePuma

2011-03-16, 06:28 AM

unosarta

2011-03-16, 06:43 AM

Nine swords still needs to be changed to Sublime Way.
Shoot. Thanks.

Fair enough that they're important skills. Perhaps they could receive their Int as a bonus to Listen and Spot checks, to represent their shard focus on the world around them (since Wis is a natural dump stat). I can understand the Perform limitation.
Good idea. I will fold it into the first battle poetry ability. I kind of made it all Perform skills, since none of the Warrior Poet's abilities are actually tied to using the skill, so the actual abilities remain as the Warrior Poet using words, but they can use the Perform skill for any instrument.

I feel like they have too many rolls they can manage. Especially with their high Int, they're going to have a lot of skill points. Personally I think 4 + Int makes more sense, but ultimately it isn't a major thing.
4+int would probably still leave them as pretty effective skill monkeys. The main problem, however, is that their Disciplines are fairly skill heavy. They have a pretty large array, but they are probably going to want to keep around 4 skills maxed just for the purposes of using their maneuvers effectively. Those probably won't be very useful skills, depending on the discipline. None of the Disciplines share a skill at all, so if the Warrior Poet really wants to use more than that many disciplines, they will really have to max even more skills. So, in reality, they will only ever really have around 2+Int skills that they will get to choose, unless they focus on one or two Disciplines, which will leave them less effective in combat.

What is this primary role they have that is usually taken by spell casters? De/buffing? They doesn't prevent them from contributing to attacks and laying down the hurt. I can understand the Reflex save, but the good Will still feels off to me, as the doesn't seem particularly strong in that way. I think Battle Poetry represents their strong mind well enough.
Fine. Your point is proven, I will change the other Good save to Fort.

Hmm...well its at 19th level, so it should be strong. My instinct is to have it focus on the poet side of this warrior, as that feels secondary to the Sublime side to me. At this point nothing is really coming to me, but I'll let you know if I have any ideas.
Yeah. Thanks!

Fair enough. And I like the change to a non-strike melee attack. You may want to change it to an attack though, so he isn't screwed if he misses. And the number of SotP uses seem good.
The problem with just saying an attack is that many strikes also say attack. So, theoretically, they could RAW their way into using it every round. I could probably change it to "attempt."

Or make the penalty half the poets Int bonus. That gives it a choice that can benefit your allies, but there is a trade off.
Interesting idea. I also capped the bonus or penalty at 1/2 Warrior Poet class levels.

Can't boost Sunder attempts, eh? I guess Warrior Poets are against the destruction of loot. :smallamused:
Derp. On it.

Ok. I think the name of SotP could be changed to something that implies that shorter duration, like Tactical Verse, and his words are guiding his allies or distracting/misdirecting his enemies. Other than that, well explained. Thanks.
Tactical Verse isn't bad.

Ok...now is it DR/adamantine and magic, or DR/adamantine or magic? :smalltongue:

And fair enough on the ability boost.
There is an and in there.

As I suggested earlier, he could gain his Int to listen, Perform, and Spot checks and the Int to Will is good, as is the final damage bonus. The bonus to attack rolls is the major issue here, and I'm not sure what a good replacement would be. Perhaps you could make a number of AoOs equal to your Int mod, or your could add it to your AC for 1 round when you used your SotP. Maybe you add it to you AC against AoO?
I changed it to when the Warrior Poet is using his Song of the Poet ability against an opponent, he gains a bonus to attack rolls against that opponent. I will probably clarify the wording a bit.

The fluff is a good short explanation. You may want to make a note of the minimum number of SotP uses you need to use it, as I don't think your vision includes using all your SotP uses for the encounter, and then using Songstrike.
Good point.

Looking good!
Awesome! :smallsmile:

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-16, 11:56 AM

Looks good.

Understandable, I'll mention some ideas farther down.

Fair enough, this works. As long as you change Numb to Fear so their phobia still frightens them.

Yeah, I can't think of one either, otherwise I would've mentioned them. :smalltongue:

Fair enough, its your class. I stand by the feeling that its just too specific for a base class...but it is purely flavor, so it should be fine.

Well it depends, I'd say, on if you use the term nightmare figuratively or literally. Note that a kalashtar can't make use of Nightmares Made Real.

Fair enough.

Fair enough with the knowledge skills, though I can't recall any class that weren't Int based gaining access to all of them, which is what makes it stand out. And UMD on casters I can understand as a personal preference. It stands out because casters don't get UMD (beguiler gets it from his rogue side, not caster). You know that casters don't need UMD to activate a wand or such if the spell is on their list, right?

I can understand this, and can't look down on it much. Though I'd houserule all those classes to a better progression, that is solidly a houserule.

What constitutes "calling for it?" Casting is already the most powerful ability in the game, why does it inherently get to be SAD as well? I mean, I prefer SADness when I'm optimizing, but in general I feel like a dependency on three attributes is just good class design. And no, I don't consider Dex and Con real attributes the class needs; they're just the dumpstats that offer the best extras.

Looking forward to the revisions.

Even minor abilities are better than nothing at all. The monk would not be improved simply be removing all its useless abilities and not replacing them with anything. :smalltongue:

*nod* I'm just not feeling it as it stands. The flavor is obviously telling the target a scary story in some fashion, which doesn't translate well to a 6 second round, and the other requirements of demoralizing actions.

I can understand that, and support it. The problem comes from the fluff and crunch clashing, as if you are casting something like irresistible dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm) or sympathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sympathy.htm) you clearly aren't doing something fear-based to the target.

From a PC standpoint, I feel like this is one of those small monk-like abilities you didn't want to fill the class with in the first place. :smallsmile: I'm not saying you should scrap it, just that disease is never going to be a major part of a PC's arsenal (unless they're a Cancer Mage).

Yes, assuming your DM says that you can fall asleep. And then the player just sits there and...sleeps for round after round while everyone else gets to fight. It is awesomely flavorful, but practically useless.

Fair enough. Though I still find the fact that it removes previously accrued age penalties odd.

:smalltongue:

BBoD is not an evil spell, and how dare you imply otherwise! :smallsmile:

*nod* Fair enough. Though I'm still not sure what exactly they're scared of.

As long as you're aware that this is the most versatile path by far.

This needs to be included in the fluff! Their paranoia is such that they refuse to accept any rational arguments, or even proof of an afterlife or anything like that. Helps bring home the insanity.

*cracks knuckles* Ok, now for some mechanical suggestions. Remember that these are quick brainstorms. Its still your class, so I just want to give you some inspiration, and not writing full abilities. It is still a competition, after all! :smallwink:

Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a bonus feat.
LMTYaS gives a flat competence bonus to Intimidate, like the Samurai's Staredown. In addition, perhaps spend a full-round action to tell a brief tale or something that affects all (enemies) within a certain range that can hear you. This could induce shaken for a round, frightened later, possibly for CHA rounds so the longer you tell your story, the more scared your enemies will be.
As mentioned, the Phobic paths still need to induce fear in the nightmare sculptor. Perhaps they are not immune to certain effects and abilities that are based on that phobia? And whenever they are confronted by their phobia they become shaken/frightened/panicked?
They could gain limited telepathy, and be able to rummage around the minds of those close, gaining a bonus to the DC of their fear effects, able to project fear directly into the minds of others, and so on.
They could have a limited polymorph ability, when they have pre-set bonuses, or a list of bonuses they can choose from to mix and match, that represents them turning into what their opponents fear.
While sleeping they can summon their nightmares into consolidated shapes of shadow and darkness, being able to cast limited Summon Monster spells while sleeping.
Perhaps a way to influence, coerce, suggest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm), command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm), or dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominateMonster.htm) those suffering from your fear effects?

I hope these help! :smallsmile:

The Phobic Paths now turn off the immunity, and they get Skill Focus (Intimidate). I'm going to mull over the rest, and get back to the class later.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-16, 02:21 PM

Me being in the midst of a Soulknife fix, I think I'll post it. (Yes, I see MA's fix. No, that isn't gonna stop me.)

While I like his fix, I went in a different direction with my class. I will admit, it looks to me like he got the good art though.

More entries are welcome! With only three, its good to see more people submitting. :smallsmile:

@ unosarta -

Fair enough of the SP/Disciplines.
You'll want to included a (min 1) in Tactical Verse, so you still get an effect at 1st level.
Battle Poetry still needs to boost Spot and Listen.
Additionally, I'd have Battle Poetry just add your Int to your Will save, not replace Wisdom. more closely mirrors the Warblade ability.

@ TheGeckoKing -

I don't see Skill Focus anywhere.
Live My Nightmare is cool, but I think death is too much. Wisdom damage, even a notable amount of it, would be quite fitting though. Is the nightmare sculptor aware of the divination attempt, or is it just a natural defense?
I like the addition to numb to nightmares, allowing the suppression of the ability.
I look forward to your replies! :smallsmile:

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-16, 02:37 PM

I don't see Skill Focus anywhere.
Frazzling website eating my posts. It's been doing that all day
Live My Nightmare is cool, but I think death is too much. Wisdom damage, even a notable amount of it, would be quite fitting though. Is the nightmare sculptor aware of the divination attempt, or is it just a natural defense?
I'll make the death/damage scale, methinks. And I think they would be aware of the attempted intrusion, yeah.
I like the addition to numb to nightmares, allowing the suppression of the ability.
Snazzy.

Replies in bold, yada yada.

unosarta

2011-03-16, 03:11 PM

More entries are welcome! With only three, its good to see more people submitting. :smallsmile:

@ unosarta -

Fair enough of the SP/Disciplines.
You'll want to included a (min 1) in Tactical Verse, so you still get an effect at 1st level.
Battle Poetry still needs to boost Spot and Listen.
Additionally, I'd have Battle Poetry just add your Int to your Will save, not replace Wisdom. more closely mirrors the Warblade ability.

Good point for the minimum to the Tactical Verse. Oh crap, forgot about the spot & listen. On it.

Morth

2011-03-18, 11:42 PM

Question: Can I use a fairly common idea? Like my plan was for a Sublime Soulknife or such. Is that allowed?

Temotei

2011-03-19, 02:10 AM

Question: Can I use a fairly common idea? Like my plan was for a Sublime Soulknife or such. Is that allowed?

Yeah. I recommend you make it unique in at least some ways, though. If you just tack maneuvers onto the soulknife, I doubt you'll get any votes, let alone critique beyond the fluffy bits.

With that said, I don't expect you to do that. Still, it's worth saying. :smalltongue:

MammonAzrael

2011-03-19, 02:15 AM

Sooo...if someone's got the time, could you maybe give the Ascetic a critique? Thanks! :smallsmile:

Temotei

2011-03-19, 02:16 AM

Sooo...if someone's got the time, could you maybe give the Ascetic a critique? Thanks! :smallsmile:

I'm planning on doing it over the weekend.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-19, 02:20 AM

Shiny, thanks! :smallsmile:

Derjuin

2011-03-19, 08:09 PM

Temotei

2011-03-19, 08:12 PM

Just checking to make sure, are we allowed to reserve a post for the continuation of a class if it doesn't fit into one post? I think I might need to if I'm going to fit all the of the class feature "spells" into it...:smalleek:

A single post contains up to 50,000 characters. If it's not enough, I think the best plan would be to reserve another post and then to delete it if the first did, in fact, have enough room.

dragonjek

2011-03-21, 03:28 PM

Hi!

I just finished my first class, the Mindwarped, and put it up in the challenge. I put up a lot of information on her, but I know that quantity does not equal quality. Could I have any advice on how to fix her up, so when the judging comes round she looks alright?

Amechra

2011-03-21, 05:27 PM

WOW THAT IS A LOT!

I know have post-size envy. Seriously, I can't keep my attention on a project for long enough that I would be able to make something like that.

Noctemwolf

2011-03-21, 05:36 PM

Hey fellas! Hope you don't mind If I pop my head in and see if contests like these are for me. :smallbiggrin:

MammonAzrael

2011-03-21, 07:38 PM

Those are some serious submissions. I'll try to critique them sooner rather than later, but it may be a bit. Is The Occultist finished and ready for reading?

@ dragonjek - Without reading anything, I think that your posts, at leat your second post, would benefit from the use of Spoiler tags.

@ Derjuin - I'd really appreciate it if you could break up your expanded enigmas into smaller spoilers. Like one spoiler level 1, another for level 2, and so on.

Temotei

2011-03-21, 09:57 PM

MammonAzrael: I'm going to have to delay my review of your class for a bit. I've got quite a bit of homework. I'll see about doing it tomorrow. I figured I would let you know so that you didn't have to ask or think I forgot.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-21, 10:02 PM

No worries, take your time. :smallsmile:

Derjuin

2011-03-21, 10:04 PM

@ Derjuin - I'd really appreciate it if you could break up your expanded enigmas into smaller spoilers. Like one spoiler level 1, another for level 2, and so on.

Okay, will do. With exception to the rest of the Enigmas, Occultist is finished.

Temotei

2011-03-21, 10:17 PM

Hey fellas! Hope you don't mind If I pop my head in and see if contests like these are for me. :smallbiggrin:

These contests are for everyone. Join us. Join us. :smalltongue:

Derjuin

2011-03-22, 02:55 AM

Occultist is finished, including all 9 levels of Enigmas. If anyone wants to give it a look-through...:smallwink:

Note: There may be some discrepancies between the Expanded Enigmas details and the listed Enigmas in the post previous to it, as I changed some of them as I went, though I tried to remember to go back and edit the short-detail list.

NineThePuma

2011-03-23, 07:25 PM

I'm gonna withdraw from this contest. Too many invocations. Can't actually finish the class comprehensively enough for me to consider it 'Done'

Amechra

2011-03-24, 12:28 AM

Dropping out of participation. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11449.msg391939#msg391939)

Temotei

2011-03-24, 09:45 PM

Dropping out of participation. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11449.msg391939#msg391939)

I don't plan on joining a site just to read whatever you linked. I'm curious, though. Can you say? :smalltongue:

Also, that's disappointing. If either of you change your minds and finish, feel free to repost or edit in the thread. Only repost if you plan on deleting your previous posts or if you've already done so.

Amechra

2011-03-25, 10:06 PM

I'm going to leave all DnD boards until late May, to help preserve my sanity.

Adieu.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-29, 06:38 PM

Amechra, I don't know if you're still reading this...but if you've really pulled out, would you mind deleting your two posts on the submission thread?

@ Temotei - So...what's goin' on? :smalltongue:

unosarta

2011-03-29, 08:37 PM

@ Temotei - So...what's goin' on? :smalltongue:

... We still have 14 days of contest left. *twiddles thumbs*

MammonAzrael

2011-03-29, 08:38 PM

... We still have 14 days of contest left. *twiddles thumbs*

Yes...But I'm curious if he finished looking over my class or not. :smallsmile:

unosarta

2011-03-29, 08:40 PM

Yes...But I'm curious if he finished looking over my class or not. :smallsmile:

Oooooh. Nevermind.

Temotei

2011-03-29, 11:05 PM

Yes...But I'm curious if he finished looking over my class or not. :smallsmile:

Short answer: No.

Long answer: I started, but being sick today for school hasn't helped my homework situation. College classes really do carry a lot of that, don't they? :smallsigh:

With that said, I should be finished in time for you to make a rebuttal and some edits, as well as for us to go through that process again if necessary.

MammonAzrael

2011-03-29, 11:15 PM

Short answer: No.

Long answer: I started, but being sick today for school hasn't helped my homework situation. College classes really do carry a lot of that, don't they? :smallsigh:

With that said, I should be finished in time for you to make a rebuttal and some edits, as well as for us to go through that process again if necessary.

No worries, school and health always come first.

MammonAzrael

2011-04-05, 06:53 PM

So, did anyone ever get a chance to critique the Ascetic?

I'd like to go over each of the other entries myself this week, assuming I can find the time :smallsmile:

MammonAzrael

2011-04-12, 05:17 PM

Well the contest ends tomorrow. I don't think I'll be able to critique the last too entries, sorry. They're just so large. You both obviously put a lot of work into them, and I think you should post them in their own threads after the contest ends - they deserve to been seen and read.

Temotei

2011-04-14, 12:03 AM

Mammon: I'm really sorry. I tried to make time to critique, but I haven't been able to take the time to really pout around on the internet for a while now with a ton of things coming up and taking place right now. I'll see if I can look at it soon, but since the contest is over, it'll have no effect on your results. :smallsigh::smallfrown:

MammonAzrael

2011-04-14, 12:06 AM

Don't worry about it. :smallsmile: I feel just as bad for not being able to get to the other submissions myself, but sometimes the time availible just isn't enough.

MammonAzrael

2011-04-15, 11:15 PM

Voting thread?

Temotei

2011-04-16, 12:20 AM

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195397) we are. I've been far more busy than I thought I would have been this week. Ai. :smallfrown:

On Challenge VI: What are some themes or ideas you'd like to see implemented, everyone? I could come up with one of my own again, but I'd like to get some ideas from you all before I put up a thread this time. :smallsmile:

Morth: Add a recovery method or state that your class has none and you'll be golden for voting. For now, you're in the list, but the edit should be done within a few days, if possible. If you don't edit, I'll just assume there is no recovery method.

dragonjek

2011-04-16, 05:56 PM

How about...

A class based on science (Technology! Mad Science! Normal Science! Alchemy! Fake Science! Magitech! Etc.!)?

A class involving creating an entire unique system of magic?

A class requiring a formal education?

A class that is based on language, rune-working, Truespeaking, the Words of Creation, Black Speech, the written word, etc.?

A class based on the spirits, the dead, souls, etc.?

A class that has an object or companion required to work to full potential?

A class that you can only take if you were born with it, or if you were cursed/blessed, or some accident made you have it--not something you can learn?

A class based off of a part of nature--not nature as a whole, but a specific aspect of it.

A class with spellcasting, but that cannot cast spells over 6th (or 4th, your choice) level?

A class that requires others to be present or used in some method to work at their full potential?

A class based on deception?

A class relating to dreams?

A joke class?

A class that relates to or has a connection to a certain creature or type of creature?

A class that is involved with the nobility in some fashion?

A class based on psionics/soulbind/mysteries/etc.?

A class that must be made using only abilities that already exist in a published WotC book?

A class that must be made without using any abilities--even spells--that have ever been published in a WotC book?

A class that must have every ability start with the same letter?

A class that engages in melee combat?

A class designed to protect?

A class with connections to the planes of existence, or to a specific plane?

A class that originated from a certain race or culture, and is rarely found outside of it?

A class that is connected with the gods, but does not cast divine spells?

A class that involves the character changing into something else, be it becoming a lich ala Dread Necromancer, becoming an outsider like the Monk, transforming with Wild Shape like a Druid, or anything else the creator may think of?

A class that must take damage using at least one of its class abilities?

A class involved with manipulating time?

A class designed for a specific campaign setting?

Sorry, that's all I could think of. I hope one of the ideas helps!

Morth

2011-04-16, 09:46 PM

About a recovery method, I didn't want him to have one. The idea was that they have only have so many options to balance out the other stats.

Edit: I fixed it boss!

Amechra

2011-04-26, 07:07 AM

A class based of personal perfection.

A class where you do something nonmagically that is normally done with magic (Necromancy, for an example)

A pacifist class. That doesn't suck.

A class based entirely around the physical form?

Every ability name must be a line from a x many line long poem, whose title is the name of the class? (screw it, now I want to make the Jabberwocky!)

Morph Bark

2011-04-26, 07:09 AM

A class based off Disney princesses.

Which isn't a joke class.

And totally kicks ass.

YouLostMe

2011-04-26, 08:50 AM

A class based off Disney princesses.

Which isn't a joke class.

And totally kicks ass.

I second this statement.

unosarta

2011-04-26, 09:01 AM

I call Mulan. She was always the coolest princess... even though she technically isn't a princess? I don't get it either...

Temotei

2011-04-28, 11:22 PM

I like a lot of those ideas. Shall we hold a vote or should I just assume that Disney Princess is the best idea ever and everyone wants to participate? :smalltongue:

Derjuin

2011-04-28, 11:29 PM

I vote disney princesses :smallbiggrin: though I have no idea which one to pick or how to make the class NOT a joke...

MammonAzrael

2011-04-30, 09:00 PM

So...voting over? New contest ETA?

dragonjek

2011-05-03, 02:46 PM

You know...

Disney owns Marvel now. So "Disney Princess" actually covers... a lot of really, really badass stuff.

Morph Bark

2011-05-03, 02:52 PM

You know...

Disney owns Marvel now. So "Disney Princess" actually covers... a lot of really, really badass stuff.

Truly (http://marvel.wikia.com/Princess). There might be more well-known superheroines than that list, like Storm in some of the universes she exists in.

They're not a part of the Disney Princess line of franchise though, but you could simply re-interpret the concept. :smallwink:

I like a lot of those ideas. Shall we hold a vote or should I just assume that Disney Princess is the best idea ever and everyone wants to participate? :smalltongue:

Hey, I'm down, considering it was my idea after all. :smallwink:

MammonAzrael

2011-05-03, 05:01 PM

I think it would be a very jokey competition. I'm not sure if I'd have anything to submit, especially since most of the princesses could easily be represented with commoner or expert.

But don't let me stand in the way of fun! :smallsmile:

Morph Bark

2011-05-03, 05:07 PM

I already have ideas cookin' about making the class centered on the dress and other clothes.

Yeah, it would be a little jokey. But remember: the best serious classes are the ones that can be played silly and the best silly classes are the ones that can be played seriously!

Temotei

2011-05-03, 10:44 PM

Morph Bark

2011-05-12, 06:02 PM

Bump for great justice thread postiness maybe?

Temotei

2011-05-12, 09:22 PM

Bump for great justice thread postiness maybe?

Oh, my. I forgot to post a thread after my internet had problems a few days ago. I'm sorry, everyone. I'll get one up quickly.

Lord_Gareth

2011-05-12, 11:16 PM

This month's theme should be guns >.>

Temotei

2011-05-13, 01:47 AM

This month's theme should be guns >.>

Ha. Combine it with Disney Princess. I want a gun-wielding Belle. None of this, "No, Gaston!" :smalltongue:

Well, sorry guys. I tried posting the thread again, but apparently, my internet hates me and likes to quit only when I'm posting large things. Maybe it's my computer. I really need a new laptop. :smallsigh:

Morph Bark

2011-05-13, 03:54 AM

I could post the thread in your stead. With how voting here goes, I suppose that might not bar me from entering myself, or would it?

Temotei

2011-05-13, 05:38 PM

I could post the thread in your stead. With how voting here goes, I suppose that might not bar me from entering myself, or would it?

Hm. I can take the tiebreaker vote while you post the thread, if you like. That would be nice. :smallsmile:

The troubles I've had with posting here are just horribly timed. Rather crazy, that.

Morph Bark

2011-05-13, 07:17 PM

Alright, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10986499) we go!

(Couldn't think of a better name for it.)

DracoDei

2011-05-13, 08:28 PM

Hmmm.... I might do something about controlling large numbers of (relatively) low HD animals based on Perform(Sing) checks.

That "cleaning the house" scene from "Enchanted" anyone?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-13, 10:52 PM

Hi, I'd like to participate in this, so I'm posting.

Regarding the current one: I don't watch a lot of Disney movies, so I'll probably have to sit this one out.

unosarta

2011-05-13, 11:54 PM

Gah. I didn't think we were actually taking that seriously. How exactly is one supposed to make a base class around Disney Princesses? Seriously, that theme is really narrow and not at all allowing variety in the abilities. And, in addition, there are only about, what, 6 or 7 princesses? And a few of them are essentially the same thing, over and over again, with no new abilities. So, in reality, there are only about 4 or 5 princesses worth mentioning (IF THAT), and those princesses aren't even really worth it.

Lord_Gareth

2011-05-14, 01:00 AM

I must join Uno in my objection; that theme is for a PrC contest. Base classes kinda have to be broader. Might I suggest "Purity"?

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 01:23 AM

Guys, just go with it.

Remember, Mulan is part of the disney princess label. So is Pocahontis.

Lord_Gareth

2011-05-14, 01:31 AM

Guys, just go with it.

Remember, Mulan is part of the disney princess label. So is Pocahontis.

Fighter. Ranger. Done.

It's a really, really narrow theme, man.

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 02:04 AM

Then make a boring NPC class that is a danger magnet and has bonuses to "Being Kidnapped" and "Being in another castle" or something.

Temotei

2011-05-14, 03:32 AM

I sort of thought it was a joke, too, but I guess we can go with it. I'd broaden the spectrum to make the theme based around royalty or charisma, though. Disney Princess is a really thin theme, after all. For a contest, I don't think it'll work, simply because there are a limited number of princesses, whether Disney or not. There's only so much you can do with that.

Then again, I probably should have asked what theme you were going to post. :smallredface:

I guess we could go with this, though...perhaps broaden the theme to be something like "media characters." Make a base class around one or more characters in movies, books, on television, or whatever.

Just my thoughts on the matter at 3:33 a.m.

Morph Bark

2011-05-14, 04:43 AM

Then again, I probably should have asked what theme you were going to post. :smallredface:

Well, I hadn't read any objections, so I thought everyone wasn't joking about it.

I could make the base class be based around clothes instead? Considering princesses and those who act like them tend to be stereotypically fascinated with clothing. That's prettymuch the idea I had for what I could do, if I were to join in should I have the time.

EDIT: I have changed it now to the idea above, which is a lot broader. I figured I'd best do that before I disappeared for the rest of the day.

Next time don't be sounding serious when you don't mean it. :smalltongue:

DracoDei

2011-05-14, 09:39 AM

Well, that nixes my idea... unless I take it to the REALLY parody level and go with the joke idea I had for a comic strip about having one's cute little animal friends swarm up your body to cling on such that they count as a layer of armor that walks the line between cute and squick.

Temotei

2011-05-14, 03:39 PM

Well, that nixes my idea... unless I take it to the REALLY parody level and go with the joke idea I had for a comic strip about having ones cute little animal friends swarm up your body to cling on such that they count as a layer of armor that walks the line between cute and squick.

Doooo eet. :smallcool:

DracoDei

2011-05-14, 08:16 PM

Ummm, I think you have a copy-pasta error with regard to the due-date.

Amechra

2011-05-16, 08:06 PM

Edit: Changed my idea. I have reserved two posts for my class.

Blood_caller

2011-05-17, 04:47 AM

I have a idea:
The Con-Artist/spy

A rogue bard type who uses others belife in his apperense to accomplish tings
Bluff based non-magic casting and social skill bonuses from Disguises

If I can make it work (And can make the time) im game

Morph Bark

2011-05-17, 05:41 AM

Edit: Changed my idea. I have reserved two posts for my class.

I suggest you decrease the pic size to half width and half height, otherwise the pic would need opening in a new tab to fully view it and on some computers or browsers that is impossible.

Amechra

2011-05-17, 02:46 PM

I will go do that.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-17, 02:54 PM

I'm gonna make a class for the Red Cloaks, a group of rogues that wear red cloaks and run the rooftops at night.

But first I have to find the picture they use for the Red Cloak paragon path in Martial Power 2. Anyone want to help me with that?

MammonAzrael

2011-05-17, 06:19 PM

Good luck to everyone. I won't be submitting for this one, as I'm swamped with both real life and other contests (in addition to not having a concept atm). I know you'll all come up with impressive work! :smallsmile:

Also, Temotei, if you still wanted to weigh in on the Ascetic, I made it it's own thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199227) to hopefully generate some critique and give it some exposure, as I really like how it turned out and hope that it'll get more looks. Feel free to drop a comment or critique if you've got the time.

unosarta

2011-05-17, 09:05 PM

My concept; a Stitch Witch. Their main abilities would not, in fact, be spellcasting, but instead use cloth and magic-like cloth in order to make supernatural effects. Some examples include; Effigies, essentially small constructs made out of cloth; Shrouds, which are buffs for characters, usually spread over a certain area; Weaves, which turn cloth into weapons, able to give them to self as well as allies. Basically, the class would be very much a support class more than anything else. The shrouds could potentially be used for battlefield control, and debuffing, and the Effigies for some grappling/tripping/meat (cloth?) shielding, the Weaves for damage, but the Stitch Witch wouldn't excel at any, but able to transfer the powers to other players.

PoorHobo

2011-05-17, 10:41 PM

Does anyone ever get intimidated out of these contests? I was going to post something but after seeing the first two classes come up I feel like I'd be bringing a commoner build to a Optimization thread. Then I started looking at other contest threads and was floored. Do professional designers post in these contests or is the community just this damn good?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-17, 10:46 PM

NineThePuma

2011-05-17, 10:49 PM

unosarta

2011-05-17, 11:08 PM

PoorHobo, you are not alone! I too am frequently tanked by the people here.

As an aside, we should start The Contest Compendium, cataloging the various classes and giving short overviews of them. It'd be awesome.

Dude, this is a fantastic idea! Considering there are only what, 45 classes in the first five contests... yeah, good luck with that. :smalleek::smalleek:

Does anyone ever get intimidated out of these contests? I was going to post something but after seeing the first two classes come up I feel like I'd be bringing a commoner build to a Optimization thread. Then I started looking at other contest threads and was floored. Do professional designers post in these contests or is the community just this damn good?

Oh my gosh, don't worry at all. I love some of my creations, I am absolutely floored by my stupidity in creating others. It all just depends on the class/monster/what have you. Honestly, the best way to learn is to just try or do it. We will critique you, and via that you will get better. That's why I do most of these competitions. :smallbiggrin:

Amechra

2011-05-17, 11:13 PM

I got intimidated out of the last one, and almost got intimidated out of this one by my own feelings of inadequacy; really, it all comes down to screaming at yourself to just do it.

After all, Commoner Builds don't all stink, and creating decent classes isn't as hard as it looks.

(Why, oh why did I choose to make a new discipline?)

Morph Bark

2011-05-18, 05:11 AM

As an aside, we should start The Contest Compendium, cataloging the various classes and giving short overviews of them. It'd be awesome.

That'd definitely be a great idea, at least for the finished entries. So many sad unfinished ones. :smallfrown:

I also have to admit, there's a large amount of these classes that I'd love using for NPCs sometime, but considering I am sticking to my promise made in the Homebrew Playtest Services, that won't happen in my current campaign, at least not of my own accord.

NineThePuma

2011-05-18, 08:37 AM

Dude, this is a fantastic idea! Considering there are only what, 45 classes in the first five contests... yeah, good luck with that. :smalleek::smalleek:

Complete Classes Only, as MB noted.

PLUS, I'd probably wanna do the PrC contest too.

Morph Bark

2011-05-18, 09:10 AM

PLUS, I'd probably wanna do the PrC contest too.

Definitely.

I also would actually love to see sample NPCs in such a thread, since those are great to use from the get-go.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-18, 11:36 AM

Woops, realized I didn't use the template provided, sorry.

blackmage

2011-05-18, 12:01 PM

How does this sound...a fighter who uses clothing as weaponry. I'm thinking each 'magic item slot' is a 'type' of 'weapon' for this class, and wearing certain combinations of clothing allows for certain special attacks. Like, having gauntlets/gloves and a ring allows for a stunning punch attack, having a cloak lets you temporarily blind or confuse someone, etc.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-18, 12:10 PM

Changed my post to fit the template, I just erased what I had and pasted in the template.

unosarta

2011-05-18, 12:11 PM

Complete Classes Only, as MB noted.

PLUS, I'd probably wanna do the PrC contest too.

Oh, okay, that could definitely work better.

That... is going to take a while. A long, long, long while.

Temotei

2011-05-18, 02:22 PM

Changed my post to fit the template, I just erased what I had and pasted in the template.

It's not absolutely mandatory that the template be used. As long as it's readable and not too cluttered or something, it should be fine. Continuity is sometimes nice, but if it looks better with colors and different fonts and such, feel free to use them.

Amechra

2011-05-18, 02:27 PM

Maneuver section up, and I will post exactly what a Beautiful Dress IS soon.

(Heavenly Mitoste is the replacement name for Heavenly Ribbons. It's an old term for dressmaker)

EDIT: And now we see the Beautiful Dress. I especially like how Adjust the Hem turned out; never get thrown out of a social function for not wearing the fashion again!

unosarta

2011-05-20, 08:49 AM

All of the class features are pretty much done, including Shrouds, Weaves, and Effigy benefits. All I need are to remove the dead levels at 9th and 17th level.

Debihuman

2011-05-23, 09:02 AM

unosarta

2011-05-23, 01:52 PM

unasorta -- your base class doesn't allow them to use the satin sword (and shouldn't it be like a longsword), flax axe, cotton hammer, and woven longbow since they aren't proficient with Martial Weapons.

Debby

Oooooh, I actually meant for the Weaves to not have a proficiency requirement, so that they can be used by anyone. I will add that in. Thanks!

Temotei

2011-05-23, 03:58 PM

unasorta -- your base class doesn't allow them to use the satin sword (and shouldn't it be like a longsword), flax axe, cotton hammer, and woven longbow since they aren't proficient with Martial Weapons.

Debby

Well, they'd be allowed to use the weapons, but there would be a -4 penalty involved.

That's just nitpicking, though. :smallwink:

Gideon Falcon

2011-05-23, 10:47 PM

I have to ask... Is there such things as Resplendant Masters of Ribbons (or perhaps Belts)?

Amechra

2011-05-24, 07:37 PM

There are; I just haven't completely worked out all the fluff yet, so thats why I don't have anything written out yet.

Anyone have opinions on what I have up so far?

Garryl

2011-05-24, 11:12 PM

It's a little barebones at the moment. The unique class features (extruding and imbuing ribbons) aren't written up at all at the moment, although the basic idea behind them is easy enough to infer, at least (you make ribbons to fight with and you put spells on them).

For the Beautiful Dress, what does a positive modifier for the Armor Check Penalty mean? The dress isn't based off an existing suit of armor, so it's obviously not supposed to reduce any existing penalties. Also, the miss chance should be granted to attacks targeting the Resplendent Mistress of Ribbons, not to her herself (check the wording of concealment, Blink, and similar effects). I'd also recommend finding a different way of limiting the special abilities transfered to the dress. Dividing your miss chance by 10 is clunky (and it should be 10%, not 10, don't forget about the units). Level/4 rounded up would be clearer, for instance.

Also, just to clarify (since you make mention of the dress being destroyed), would the Beautiful Dress's hp and hardness follow the normal rules for armor? That is, 5 hp/armor bonus and hardness 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm), with the usual +10 hp and +2 hardness per point of enhancement bonus.

Although you haven't given us the specifics yet, I like the look of Heavenly Ribbons Style so far. It looks like some interesting battlefield control and disruption, especially with the emphasis on grappling (similar to Setting Sun's partial emphasis on tripping/throwing). It has very few strikes (only 5 out of 23) which helps emphasize its more defensive and nonlethal nature. The names are pretty darn flavorful, too. I'm also happy to see my rushes being put to good use.

I look forward to seeing more. Good luck.

Amechra

2011-05-24, 11:30 PM

Thanks. I'll get around to dealing with the necessary changes to Beautiful Dress soon.

invinible

2011-06-09, 10:52 PM

Isn't anybody going to create a base class that lets you wear the clothing type monsters safely?

Morph Bark

2011-06-10, 01:57 AM

Isn't anybody going to create a base class that lets you wear the clothing type monsters safely?

Your perhaps? :smallwink:

Gideon Falcon

2011-06-10, 09:00 AM

Are the contests usually this slow-going?

Cipher Stars

2011-06-10, 04:27 PM

Can I join with my Stylist? I should have asked, but I did make it for this, and with this contest in mind. Saved it in forum elsewhere because its easier then open office or something, and I can actually see what it looks like and not a wall of text and coding.

Never done a contest before... So.. hello.

Apparently it can't be posted anywhere previously even if it was made after the contest was nearly over, and despite it not saying anything about that in the four rules given.
*sigh* what ever...

Temotei

2011-06-10, 09:56 PM

Lord_Gareth

2011-06-10, 09:57 PM

I, personally, would. You're supposed to make something from scratch - that's part of the creativity of the thing.

Cipher Stars

2011-06-10, 10:00 PM

I, personally, would. You're supposed to make something from scratch - that's part of the creativity of the thing.

I made it for this contest, I just made a thread for it because I don't know what the heck I'm doing. All the rules said was no plagiarism, ect ect ect.

Here:
1. You will be creating an original base class based around clothes. Be it socialites in haute couture, simple peasant's clothing making you badass or changing stuff on the go to give you magical bonuses inherent in your clothes. There are no other restrictions other than that you cannot have posted your entry anywhere else before. Aside from that, anything goes--psionics, martial maneuvers, spellcasting, whatever. Go crazy; new mechanics, new feats, new items, and everything else you can think of are fair game!

2. Submissions are due by June 14th, and should be submitted in the format shown in the next post. Feel free to play around with fonts, images, and the like, but the overall format should be somewhat similar. Mostly, just make it easy on the eyes.

3. There must be a name, complete class, and fluff for both combat and role playing purposes. Incomplete entries will be disqualified--no exceptions.

4. Plagiarism is strictly forbidden.

That was all I had to go on besides the given template.

Temotei

2011-06-11, 04:23 AM

I made it for this contest, I just made a thread for it because I don't know what the heck I'm doing. All the rules said was no plagiarism, ect ect ect.

Here:
1. You will be creating an original base class based around clothes. Be it socialites in haute couture, simple peasant's clothing making you badass or changing stuff on the go to give you magical bonuses inherent in your clothes. There are no other restrictions other than that you cannot have posted your entry anywhere else before. Aside from that, anything goes--psionics, martial maneuvers, spellcasting, whatever. Go crazy; new mechanics, new feats, new items, and everything else you can think of are fair game!

2. Submissions are due by June 14th, and should be submitted in the format shown in the next post. Feel free to play around with fonts, images, and the like, but the overall format should be somewhat similar. Mostly, just make it easy on the eyes.

3. There must be a name, complete class, and fluff for both combat and role playing purposes. Incomplete entries will be disqualified--no exceptions.

4. Plagiarism is strictly forbidden.

That was all I had to go on besides the given template.

Eh. After thinking about it, I'm not so sure. It is in the rules that it can't be posted elsewhere. While you may have made it for the contest, this mistake has sad consequences. I'm sure a lot of us will be happy to critique your work, though. Feel free to participate in the next contest for sure. Sorry if it doesn't work out.

Gideon Falcon

2011-06-11, 11:53 AM

Well, if it was posted in its own thread due to a misunderstanding, I think we can make an exception to the rule.

Cipher Stars

2011-06-11, 08:29 PM

Eh. After thinking about it, I'm not so sure. It is in the rules that it can't be posted elsewhere. While you may have made it for the contest, this mistake has sad consequences. I'm sure a lot of us will be happy to critique your work, though. Feel free to participate in the next contest for sure. Sorry if it doesn't work out.

Is there a reason theres such a rule in the first place. :smallannoyed: I see no valid reasoning behind a rule like that.

"Can't have been made prior to the contest" works fine. but "Can't be anywhere else besides our thread", I cannot see.

And when "Can't be anywhere else besides our thread" just doesn't work when its no where on the actual contest thread.

If your that stingy about it, deleting my thread I made for this should serve the same purpose.

unosarta

2011-06-11, 09:37 PM

And when "Can't be anywhere else besides our thread" just doesn't work when its no where on the actual contest thread.

Actually, "can't be anywhere else besides our thread" doesn't work either, because, if my memory serves me right, others have posted outside of the actual contest thread, in addition to the contest thread, and asked for critiques there. If it didn't happen in this contest, it happened in another one, and it seems both valid and intelligent, in order to get more critiques.

Cipher Stars

2011-06-11, 09:46 PM

Two for it, one hesitant "Maybe" and changed mind to "Um... I don't think so". and one rejection that didn't seem to have any boundaries, and didn't even seem to be related to this rule. "You're supposed to make something from scratch - that's part of the creativity of the thing. " It was scratch of course, and is that saying I'm not creative?

Morph acted pretty much the same as Tem, Just a little more for it then a little more against.

So! Admittedly still hesitant, I ask:

So do I post my class here or in the main thread first :)

Lord_Gareth

2011-06-11, 09:49 PM

Actually, "can't be anywhere else besides our thread" doesn't work either, because, if my memory serves me right, others have posted outside of the actual contest thread, in addition to the contest thread, and asked for critiques there. If it didn't happen in this contest, it happened in another one, and it seems both valid and intelligent, in order to get more critiques.

The actual rule is that you can't have posted it elsewhere before you posted it here, because it gives you an unfair head-start on critiques and revisions.

Cipher Stars

2011-06-11, 09:53 PM

The actual rule is that you can't have posted it elsewhere before you posted it here, because it gives you an unfair head-start on critiques and revisions.

By that same logic were pretty even. Haven't you been talking it up for ages and to each other here in this thread? Meanwhile I made my class yesterday as the contest seems to be close to ending.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-06-11, 09:55 PM

By that same logic were pretty even. Haven't you been talking it up for ages and to each other here in this thread? Meanwhile I made my class yesterday as the contest seems to be close to ending.

I haven't seen a single post of feedback for any of the contest classes.

Cipher Stars

2011-06-11, 10:02 PM

I haven't seen a single post of feedback for any of the contest classes.

I thought I read a few posts chattering about something, I did look through a few. maybe... four before giving up.
oh well.

Only one comment was helpful, but I won't be following but one part. And that was something I would have asked in another thread or here anyway. "What do you do for Starting age or Starting gold" Because I didn't have access to PHB and all the classes I found online just said "As X" with no listed starting gold, or neither.

unosarta

2011-06-11, 10:12 PM

The actual rule is that you can't have posted it elsewhere before you posted it here, because it gives you an unfair head-start on critiques and revisions.

That doesn't make any sense, since the contest thread was posted before they put up their thread, and after literally every other entry, including the ones that aren't finished, had been posted. They did get critiques, but that is the fracking point of this contest. In addition, if they had posted the class in this thread, and then made an additional one as an actual thread, they would have gotten literally the exact same number of critiques. There is literally no unfair advantage. If people were going to complain about not getting critiques, they could have offered to critique other works, they could have asked specific homebrewers as a favor, or they could have posted in a separate thread just like Cipherthe3vil did. The point of that rule is in order to make sure that no one makes something before the contest, and then posts it up and gets it critiqued and has it all polished, and then submits it, getting a head start on the other entrants. That is clearly not what happened here, and I feel like we are arguing semantics for no purpose.

Lord_Gareth

2011-06-11, 10:24 PM

Una, you seem to be misunderstanding - it's not, "It can't have been posted before the contest thread was posted". It's "you need to have put it in the contest before you posted it somewhere else". Once it's in the contest thread, start all the other threads about it that you like.

Cipher Stars

2011-06-11, 10:34 PM

Lord_Gareth

2011-06-11, 10:35 PM

Cipher Stars

2011-06-11, 10:56 PM

*Shrugs* This is Temo's show now, not mine. If I were running it, I'd ban the class and I wouldn't bother justifying it, but I gave it up due to IRL concerns. Talk to Temo for his rationale or ruling.

He seemed fine with it the first time he replied...
Well, I'd hope you mention it in the thread then if you intend to ban anyone who makes a thread for they're class to house their class... Because banning someone who did not know as it wasn't written at least where anyone could see it would be very unjust.

Lord_Gareth

2011-06-11, 10:57 PM

Like I said, this is no longer my party, though again, allow me to state:

The original rule required only that your class first be posted as part of the contest before any outside threads were created.

*Hopes that clears up the confusion*

Gideon Falcon

2011-06-11, 11:20 PM

And in this case, it was posted outside the thread due to a misunderstanding, meaning it's not anyone's fault, especially not Cipher's. Thus, there's no need to punish anyone, nor any reason why Cipher's class can't be entered. I do think you're being a bit unnecessarily harsh. Uno was talking about the intent of the law, rather than the letter, which he took to be against pre-contest material being entered, rather than actually against posting the class outside the contest thread per se. His interpretation makes much more sense to me than arbitrarily banning an entry due to a simple, honest mistake. In addition, one must consider Ciphers motivation, which was not to break any rules or to cheat or gain an unfair disadvantage in any way, right? As such, I vote that his class should be allowed in.

NeoSeraphi

2011-06-11, 11:37 PM

I don't claim to know anything about the previous competitions or whether those of us not associated with the running of them have any say, but what I do know is this is a very interesting concept (A clothes-based base class) and that making something like that requires a lot of creativity and work.

Cipher's class is good, for what it's worth. It's interesting and it fits the theme. It's unique, and I don't think the contest has too many other entries anyway, so why not let her compete? She did get critiques from others, yes, but she made probably close to 12 or 15 edits to that class since she made the thread, and at least 10 of them were her own doing. She spent an entire day changing it and fixing it so she could submit it and I think that merits lenience.

My 2 cp.

Cipher Stars

2011-06-11, 11:44 PM