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Paseo H
2011-01-01, 06:44 AM
Any tips on...

1. Indicating infallibly that said big bad is indeed the big bad without outright saying so?

2. Ensuring that they are given the proper respect and not seen as just another pissant smug snake with delusions of grandeur?

Curious
2011-01-01, 06:55 AM
For establishing respect; have him kick the PC's asses at some point. Hard.

Okay, really, I think to establish his credence as a villain, you need to have some sort of big upheaval or some such happen. For instance; collapsing some huge building like a victory column or ancient arch within a city to showcase his power. This is quite circumstantial, however, and it really depends on what kind of campaign you are running.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-01, 06:59 AM
Really, it kinda depends on what said baddie can do.

I imagine if I needed to convince the party that a BBEG was serious business, I'd definitely have my NPCs take said BBEG quite seriously.

Honestly, though, while getting PCs to fear a bad guy can be a walk in the park, getting players to do it may well be an exercise in futility. :smallfrown:

EDIT: As for telling your PCs, "Yeah, this guy is evil," without explicitly saying so, make his morals entirely alien in nature. I don't just mean, "doesn't get choked up over murder," either - I mean, give this guy a code that no person attached to his own humanity could follow.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-01, 07:02 AM
Don't have them be the big bad till the kill the other, lower "big bad" first.

Worira
2011-01-01, 07:04 AM
Is his name funny?

Could his name be slightly altered to sound funny?

Don't bother answering, it's yes.

Paseo H
2011-01-01, 07:09 AM
Chloe Sheridian is kind of a funny sounding name, I guess.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-01, 07:14 AM
Chloe Sheridian is kind of a funny sounding name, I guess.Eh, it's not that funny a name, but the players will probably find a way to make it funny. :smalltongue:

On a more serious note... I'd advise against just having the bad guy show up out of nowhere to give the PCs a beat-down. Even if he's capable of doing it, it's a little excessively-blunt, both on said baddie's part and that of the DM.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-01, 07:20 AM
The Sauron treatment: tell, don't show.

Keep the players guessing in the dark. Make clear that even the strongest adversaries they directly face are just pawns. Illustrate the scope and vileness of his villainy by having him win a few times regardless of the player actions, by revealing he either had a back-up plan or managed to power through the obstacle they posed nonetheless.

Makes his evil manifest in ways that go outside the game rules - the sky is always red when he's near, wild-life hurries away, there's a stench of blood and sulphur etc. I often find that it's easiest to drive rules-oriented players out of their comfort zones by going outside expected mechanics, evoking the feeling that the safe-and-sound mechanics of the system aren't there to help them. It never gets old for me when players shout "I roll initiative!" when there really is nothing but darkness around.

Alternatively: Wait, this guy is the Villain?

Play the Big Bad as the one who gives the players their quests and rewards. Don't don't make obviously evil or antagonistic at all - rather, play him as a quirky yet oddly affable side-character, someone the players will start remembering the name of after a few sessions, but who won't be stealing their screen time.

Then have this familiar constant of their adventuring life do something horribly attrocious right before their eyes, just before kicking them off a cliff or locking them to starve within an ancient temple (or some other suitably dastardly move).

I both cases:

Read the Evil Overlord list. Don't have the Big Bad personally reveal any of his goals or motives, or at least undermine his reliability by proving them as ruses later on. It's an easy way to keep the players guessing if everything they hear of him is second-hand information.

Don't have him gloat - but do make him insult the PCs. My observation is that all PCs have plenty traits ripe for deconstruction - find some way for the Villain to pick them apart. :smallamused: Extra brownie points if you pull this off without the Big Bad ever being personally present, so that some witty player can't immediatly call him out in turn - it'll leave all the delicious hatred festering in the backs of the players' minds.

Try your best to ensure that eventual failure of the Big Bad is not a result of his personal incompetency, but rather that of his minions. At least once, put the PCs in a position where there is no flaw in the Villain's plans, no way for them to go wrong - expect the (in)human factors of his cronies. And make sure the cronies pay for it (and that the players know they pay for it), invoking the feeling that the Big Bad is not just some static force, but a person who can learn of his mistakes, and will actively outmanuever the PCs if they prove too much of a threat. Arrogance is over-used; sometimes, the best way to make the players take the villain seriously, is to make the villain take them seriously in turn.

Think of Sauron, again. Despite all the efforts taken by the Fellowship, in the end Sauron was right - no-one could resist the power of the One Ring. His loss in the end was much more due to bad luck than his "inability to comprehend good" he and his were often attributed with.

Paseo H
2011-01-01, 07:21 AM
But yeah, she's an outwardly charming heroic sociopath, who in reality is a deranged crusader on a quest to become a reality warper.

Or for those who know what this means:

Ore wa shin-sekai no kami da.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-01, 07:30 AM
In my experience, the best way to inspire the proper feelings towards the BBEG is for the PCs to be defeated by him. Note that, depending on the BBEG's M.O., this doesn't have to be a physical defeat in combat. It could be a political victory, or the PCs could simply fail to stop the villain's evil scheme (part 1).



For example, in one game I am in (it's a homebrew game system with a D&D style) our group has come to truly loathe and hate the new villain. The guy is the equivalent of an epic level Bard, and we've never faced him in combat. However, he's super famous and extremely wealthy and by the time we became aware of him he had already insinuated himself into our home country's government at the highest levels. On top of that, he has used a super-strong love potion on one of the PCs' mothers, and the mother is now pregnant and the couple is set to be getting married soon. We at first thought the mother had been kidnapped, but it turned out she had just run away with him, which just made us angrier. Finally, the dude has some kind of enchantment magic that we have almost no chance of resisting, and that he only uses to make people like him.

It infuriates us. Despite the fact that he is human, I selected a mini of a Tiefling with skulls to represent him, because he is the devil. That is how much we hate and fear this guy.



tl;dr- Don't be afraid to make it personal. Have the BBEG rub in how much awesomer he is compared to your PCs. Villains with powerful story abilities are way more interesting than villains that are just strong in a fight.

Paseo H
2011-01-01, 07:37 AM
"He's the Devil?"

Interesting.

One of my other major villains has even her most loyal minions saying that she is the Devil, though it is often followed by "and I will obey the devil if it's for the greater good."

This has to do with the topic because said major villain was chosen for special training by another powerful wild card/villain...because she reminded him of the Big Bad, whom he holds in both awe and fear.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-01, 07:38 AM
Keep the players guessing in the dark. Make clear that even the strongest adversaries they directly face are just pawns. Illustrate the scope and vileness of his villainy by having him win a few times regardless of the player actions, by revealing he either had a back-up plan or managed to power through the obstacle they posed nonetheless....or perhaps their actions were his plan all along? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit)


Make his evil manifest in ways that go outside the game rules - the sky is always red when he's near, wild-life hurries away, there's a stench of blood and sulphur etc. I often find that it's easiest to drive rules-oriented players out of their comfort zones by going outside expected mechanics, evoking the feeling that the safe-and-sound mechanics of the system aren't there to help them. It never gets old for me when players shout "I roll initiative!" when there really is nothing but darkness around.This has worked for me in the past. For instance, in a D&D game I ran, one of the baddies would leave behind handfuls of red sand wherever he went, and it really freaked the PCs out when they discovered traces of it in the place they intended to make camp. :smallamused:


Don't have the Big Bad personally reveal any of his goals or motives, or at least undermine his reliability by proving them as ruses later on. It's an easy way to keep the players guessing if everything they hear of him is second-hand information.Likewise has turned out useful in my games.

Keeping your group in the dark is a massive aid to keeping players and characters alike fearing and respecting someone. :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-01, 07:56 AM
"He's the Devil?"

Interesting.

Not literally. But you get my point. :smallamused:

Rumpus
2011-01-01, 08:55 AM
Most of these suggestions are for hate, but if you're looking for fear:

Early in the campaign introduce a group of adventurers (the "Heroes") who are obviously way more powerful than the PCs. Have them toss around spells several levels higher than the PCs can manage, relate a story about how the fighter once beat a minotaur to death with his bare hands, whatever.

And then have your BBEG CRUSH that party, ideally in a way the PCs can see the results. Maybe have the PCs set up to provide rear security for the other party when they rush in to challenge the BBEG. Give the PCs a few rounds of holding the line against minions, then have the lifeless body of one Hero blasted out the door past them, and another stagger out, mauled beyond recognition, say something like, "RUN!", and then collapse. That SHOULD clue the PCs that they are way out of their league, at least in a direct confrontation.

Paseo H
2011-01-01, 08:59 AM
Hmm...that gives me the idea of her nearly killing some of the npc stragglers in the group just 'because she can' to intimidate the hero, and she does dislike the hero because she sees him as a possible stumbling block between her and one of the other team members that she's been getting her claws into.

That said, she wouldn't kill them, she'd only go far enough to show that she COULD if she wanted, but allow them just enough room to make a full recovery. She's not a monster.

Waker
2011-01-01, 10:00 AM
Even if these feats were originally designed to be for an Arcane caster, as the DM you can tweak them to function for anyone you want. All of these are snagged from Dragon 359. But used properly, these traits can give your villain a certain level of spook.

Ears of the Mage: Designate one proper name. Anytime anyone speaks this name that is within 10 miles per arcane character levels is automatically heard, you also know the direction, distance and name of the speaker.

Name of the Mage: If anyone speaks your name other than yourself they are subjected to various fear affects. Equal HD to you Shaken for 3 rounds (no save), less HD than you Frightened for 1d4 +1 Rounds (no save). Those hearing your name make a Will sv (DC 10 + Arcane Levels + Cha) or be Frightened for 3 rounds. Those that save are still Shaken for 1 round. This feat requires no effort or knowledge on your part, your name enough has this power. Mind-affecting Fear effect.

Presence of the Mage: Allies within 25ft gain +1 moral bonus on svs and attack. Enemies get -1 penalty. Natural animals shy away from you when within 25ft.

Voice of the Mage: You can alter your voice to become alien. +1 Disguise, Intimidate and Perform when using your voice. Can speak in normal or whispered tone to characters within 1 mile. You can cause specific creatures to hear you, but you must be aware of their presence and general location. No line of sight is needed.

Kyouhen
2011-01-01, 10:08 AM
Most of these suggestions are for hate, but if you're looking for fear:

Early in the campaign introduce a group of adventurers (the "Heroes") who are obviously way more powerful than the PCs. Have them toss around spells several levels higher than the PCs can manage, relate a story about how the fighter once beat a minotaur to death with his bare hands, whatever.

And then have your BBEG CRUSH that party, ideally in a way the PCs can see the results. Maybe have the PCs set up to provide rear security for the other party when they rush in to challenge the BBEG. Give the PCs a few rounds of holding the line against minions, then have the lifeless body of one Hero blasted out the door past them, and another stagger out, mauled beyond recognition, say something like, "RUN!", and then collapse. That SHOULD clue the PCs that they are way out of their league, at least in a direct confrontation.

One suggestion that could make that a little more effective and a little less stereotypical would be to instead make the other party a handful of retired adventurers who still have an impressive amount of power available to them. Have these adventurers offer quests to the PCs once in a while, giving really nice rewards ("Here, I found this a few years back and think you guys could put it to good use") until the players start going to these guys for quests on their own. When the players seem to be attached to them, have one of them mysteriously vanish. Later, have them find his corpse in some horribly unpleasant position. Tied to a tree, head impaled on a spike, nailed to the ceiling, etc. Make sure they find it in the area they're travelling to or in the area of the next quest. If you did a good enough job letting the players know this guy should still be much stronger than them, they should be just a little concerned about what killed him. Don't have them find out what got the guy at this point. Repeat the same thing a few times until the players are thoroughly afraid and you've run out of adventurers to feed to the BBEG.

To let them know it was the BBEG that did it, later on when they go to one of her bases or a similar area, have them find a trademark item that each of those adventurers had inside her personal quarters. Set them up in a nice trophy cabinet with a few other random items. Your players should get the hint at this point. :smalltongue:

EDIT:


Ears of the Mage: Designate one proper name. Anytime anyone speaks this name that is within 10 miles per arcane character levels is automatically heard, you also know the direction, distance and name of the speaker.


This. A hundred times this. Have her keep a few dozen scrolls of Sending handy when she isn't expecting combat, and have her seriously screw with the players.

Player A: "Ok, so that's the plan. Let's go get Chloe."
Chloe: "I would just like to say I fully endorse this plan. Nothing can go wrong!"
Player A: "Dammit."

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-01, 01:26 PM
Or for those who know what this means:

Ore wa shin-sekai no kami da.

My Japanese is rusty, but I think that says "I am the god of the true world.".:smallbiggrin:

Tengu_temp
2011-01-01, 02:10 PM
If you want to show the power of the villain by making it beat up some PCs or NPCs, but not kill them, make sure it has a good reason to keep them alive, and make sure the PCs know this reason. Otherwise you're plunging neck-deep into Beatrix Syndrome.

Dr. Roboto
2011-01-01, 02:25 PM
Slightly off-topic question: How long should you have your players know who the BBEG is? I'm not talking "Someone killed these politicians, who could it be?" I'm asking when should the players know that Bob Smith, the evil mobster, is the Big Bad.

I'm asking this because, for example, some games don't give the BBEG enough screen time to let you hate him/her/it. IE, Sarevok in Baldur's Gate orNihilus (Kind of) in KOTOR 2. On the other hand, in some things, like in KOTOR, you know the Big Bad's name from the start, as well as what he looks like, his powers, and his plans. What/When is a happy meeting between the two?

WarKitty
2011-01-01, 02:33 PM
If you want to show the power of the villain by making it beat up some PCs or NPCs, but not kill them, make sure it has a good reason to keep them alive, and make sure the PCs know this reason. Otherwise you're plunging neck-deep into Beatrix Syndrome.

I find some version of the well-intentioned extremist to be the best at this, or at least the noble villain. Of course the BBEG isn't going to stoop to murder! That would be inhumane! A evil character that is thoroughly convinced that they are good and the PC's are evil can be quite scary - sometimes far more than the traditional selfish evil character.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-01, 02:36 PM
If you want to show the power of the villain by making it beat up some PCs or NPCs, but not kill them, make sure it has a good reason to keep them alive, and make sure the PCs know this reason. Otherwise you're plunging neck-deep into Beatrix Syndrome.

Sorry if this is a noob question, but what is Beatrix Syndrome? Does it refer to Beatrix from FF9?

Piedmon_Sama
2011-01-01, 02:39 PM
You're kind of in a bind. IME there's no way to make a badguy the proper amount of terrifying unless he really kicks the PCs' asses, in which case
1) a Deus Ex Plot (in the form of higher NPCs or a "random" act of chance that is obviously you)
2) Sheer blind stupidity on the BBEG's part
will be needed to allow them to escape with their lives.

I dunno basically the more terrifying I strain to make my adversaries the less my PCs want to "play along" so I've basically long since given up and just focus on bruising them before the end. :smallmad:

Edit: Actually yeah, Nero has the best advice. Which reminds me, the villain in my campaign (Consul Nero) is probably the most effective I've ever run not because he terrorized or embarrassed the PCs like a WWE wrestler on his first performance, but because he's managed to fool the entire campaign setting into thinking he's a normal (if sleazy) politician and get the PCs to work for him for two years out of game. The fact that he, a normal nonmagic using human (Fighter/Rogue) set up all the powerful Wizards in the setting for a huge fall and then elliminated his own coconspirators by setting them against the PCs, before the PCs even knew he was the mastermind, has already made him the biggest badass in the setting, without me needing to directly show him off at all.

Nero24200
2011-01-01, 02:42 PM
I have to say I'm surprised so many people have suggestted having the BBEG beat down the PC's/perform some overpowering act in front of them. I personally don't think it's a good idea. Something like that works in movies/novels since they're meant to introduce the villan to the audience. In fact, some films (such as The Fifth Element), don't even show the main protagonist and villan ever meeting.

But RP games are not movies or books, they're games, so they need to be fun first and a good story second. I don't know about you but being beat down without any chance of avoiding it because the DM wanted to introduce an NPC doesn't sound like fun to me.

I think if you want to make the BBEG feared/hated, I think the best way is to do something subtle. Have the PC's try a variety of quests that don't overlap in any way save for a few baddies dropping the BBEG's name in fear. Or even do something like having the PC's meet the BBEG then meet a trusted NPC who hates him/her (which could be quite effective if the BBEG gave the PC's a good impression upon meeting them).

TheBlackShadow
2011-01-01, 03:01 PM
Personally, combat and storyline/setting elements aside, I cannot properly stress the importance of the Evil Overlord List. Have the villain read up on this, then allow the players to clash with them and invariably be repulsed several times, and they'll soon start to respect them as a worthy foe, one that even the most genre savvy player will struggle with. Just look at the current strip (#766 for any far-future thread necromancers that happen to read this), and how beloved Tarquin is of the fandom despite being an absolute fiend (figuratively speaking, of course).

Chaos rising
2011-01-01, 03:04 PM
My favorite way of making a scary villain is to give hints of their existence everywhere, while still keeping everything about them secret. In the campaign i'm currently running, my main villain has never been seen, he/she/it prefers to destroy society by means of powerful evil artifacts that tear countries apart from within. The most recent boss monster my PC's fought was Morgh the all consuming, a shapeshifting demon that could turn into a scythe. In scythe form, morgh would absorb energy from everything it killed, and when it's wielder stopped feeding it, it would turn into a demon whose power was determined by the number of spirits it had consumed. When Morgh first appeared, it was directly after a massive land war, and it was strong enough to destroy the entire city it was in. Every area my players enter has something like this in it. By now said PC's have guessed that they will have to fight whatever is behind all these freakish artifacts and are scared stiff of whatever it is.

The_Werebear
2011-01-01, 03:16 PM
This is a bit of a side note compared to some of the things previously mentioned, but I feel it bears noting as well. Try not to let the PC's find something to mock/insult the BBEG about. Contempt breeds confidence, earned or not, and once they're laughing at your bad guy, it's very hard to put fear back in them.

Example - I had a campaign I was running a while back, where the main enemy was a creator of warforged (which, in the setting, were more like cyborgs than robots. They required a living human to augment). After finding some of his discarded experiments on the borders of their lands, The party had been struggling to keep him and his minions out of their lands for a while, and while initially successful, were unable to keep out a concentrated push by his forces. He invited the PC's to parley, showed them around his operations, and laid down his terms: They provide raw bodies and a base in their lands, he leaves them in power and lends them troops. The PC's are close to swayed at this point. They are in terror of his armies (which are currently inches away from besieging their city with superior troops), somewhat assuaged by his personality, which is pleasant if, firm, and believing what he says about being turned into a Warforged not being an unpleasant process (about which he was lying his ass off)

Then, a PC brings up a point. If the process really isn't bad, then what about those discarded, insane experiments that he initially let loose in their lands. This was the point in which I had a mental gaffe. I had forgot about those, and didn't have a prepared excuse. I made something up about him hitting them with a cart, and them being too traumatized from that. The PC's broke out laughing so hard that I had to end the session for the night, and they never took that bad guy seriously again, even though all it was was a bad lie.

Shortened variant- Stay prepared, and don't give the PC's anything to laugh about in regards to your villain. Humor is the antidote to fear.

woodenbandman
2011-01-01, 03:37 PM
frame the adventures so that whatever they accomplish is a waste of their time. Don't overdo it, but a big reveal in the end like "yeah, that artifact of unspeakable evil didn't actually do anything" will make them hate the villain (and hate you, vicariously)

Vance_Nevada
2011-01-01, 03:47 PM
Have you considered using cutscenes? It's something video games use all the time to show Villains well above the PCs power level without having to go for a direct confrontation.

I'm not talking about "Villain beats the PCs, no save" style cutscenes, but more the style of "Villain orders underling to go kill the PCs", "Villain intimidates or kills high level NPC", "Cloaked Villain muses in a general sense about his evil schemes to his pet cat" style.

The characters don't see it, and thus can't intervene (so no worries about killing them off, or losing the BBEG too quickly). The players see it, however, and get more interested (thus making the PCs more interested by default).

A short, 1 minute or so, description of the BBEG laying waste to a city, or ordering an underling to kill the PCs (when the PCs just beat tough underling, they'll wonder about how strong the BBEG is), can work nicely if your players are interested in co-operating.

Kyouhen
2011-01-01, 04:08 PM
Have you considered using cutscenes? It's something video games use all the time to show Villains well above the PCs power level without having to go for a direct confrontation.

I'm not talking about "Villain beats the PCs, no save" style cutscenes, but more the style of "Villain orders underling to go kill the PCs", "Villain intimidates or kills high level NPC", "Cloaked Villain muses in a general sense about his evil schemes to his pet cat" style.

The characters don't see it, and thus can't intervene (so no worries about killing them off, or losing the BBEG too quickly). The players see it, however, and get more interested (thus making the PCs more interested by default).

A short, 1 minute or so, description of the BBEG laying waste to a city, or ordering an underling to kill the PCs (when the PCs just beat tough underling, they'll wonder about how strong the BBEG is), can work nicely if your players are interested in co-operating.

Alternatively you could have the PCs still able to see it, just put them somewhere they can't actually do anything about it. At the top of a tower with no good ranged attacks while the BBEG is in the courtyard being evil, and when they get down there she's already gone. Or even a scrying pool of some sort.

big teej
2011-01-01, 04:26 PM
I personally really like the whole "jump out of the comfort zone" technique mentioned above, and I plan to use that. =]

the fact that one of the BBEG's (who know's whos in charge?! :smallamused: )

is a greater fiend lends itself well to that.

Shatteredtower
2011-01-01, 04:38 PM
In chess circles, you sometimes here, "The threat is stronger than the execution."

Before you introduce your BBEG, get your PCs invested in their setting. Reward their with lands and titles and admirers. Have family members, or the friends of family, or some respected mentor always going on about taking pride in them. Have them achieve a prestigious reputation.

Then gradually show the players how these things lie in the villain's pfh, and what she does to things that get in her way. Don't demonstrate on someone or something of value to the PCs at first; focus on related events and give them time to connect the dots.

Thiyr
2011-01-01, 04:47 PM
Yknow, I've always had the greatest respect for those villains that actually -succeed- in what they were planning to do. See: Kefka (final fantasy 3/6), or both campaign logs here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836). Those are the villains that make me fear and respect them. I mean, there is no question that the guy they saw ascend despite their best efforts is the BBEG, and when he pulls it off, "delusions of power" will probably not be the words that come to the PC's minds. Depending on campaign length, a few short quests trying to thwart them, some wins, some losses, then he pulls it off moments before they stop him, and you're golden. It can also be a nifty way to, if you have a world with more powerful NPCs, give a reason why the PCs are the ones solving the problem (born while the stars converged, inherited some minor artifact that lets them surpass much of the BBEG's power, something like that).

shaddy_24
2011-01-01, 07:23 PM
I have a villain in my game named Frenzy that I managed to get the party to seriously hate (note, all these locations and names are from Ebberon, and we're playing 4th edition). The first time he appeared, they were actually trying to break him out of jail. He was a secret agent for Aundair (one of the countries) that had been captured and was being put on trial in the Eldeen Reaches (another country, doesn't have a very good relationship with Aundair). They didn't know he was an agent, he was actually in trouble because of the cult he had infiltrated, and the party was hired to get him out without it becoming known that he was a secret agent.

What was actually the case was he was a traitor, and planned to get the party in trouble for breaking him out. One of the wardens of the jail was part of the cult as well, and the two of them co-ordinated to get the party caught after they broke him out. The whole party gets arrested, though they managed to prevent Frenzy from escaping without realizing it and he's brought in with them. His allies appear to burst him out, and he gets into a fight with half the party (the wizard, the paladin and the monk) in their jail cell. He was mostly winning the fight, but was bloodied and decided to let them escape rather than try and finish them off.

In the end, the party didn't get in trouble for what happened, but rumors were spread that agents from another country had attacked and killed a bunch of druids, and that a member of this cult had been freed by them. Tensions were raised between the countries, so the guy managed to achieve his goal, even if the party figured it out.

He's appeared again a few times, each time slightly more powerful. He appeared when they were fighting the leader of the cult to prevent him from finishing a giant ritual he said would change all the shifters in the area into true lycanthropes (which would have been really bad, since most of the high ranking members of this cult were shifters). Frenzy showed up long enough to finish the ritual while everyone was distracted, though he did seriously injure one party member that tried to stop him. The ritual didn't do as was advertized though, and Frenzy left after, having been seriously drained by the ritual. He did leave a hydra to fight the party though.

The last time he appeared threw the party for a loop. They're still not sure if it was actually him, but it's what makes the most sense. One of their allies, another agent of Aundair, appears to have been possessed by him, and almost managed to kidnap one of the party members. Would have succeeded, if the monk hadn't rolled really, really well. At this point, he was strong enough that he beat the monk down to 10 hit points from 60 in less than a full round. The monk barely managed to escape with the other party member, and would have lost if "Frenzy" hadn't rolled a 2 on the final attack roll. In the end, the entire party fled from that fight, which makes it the second time in three encounters that ended with the party fleeing from this guy.

Basically, this guy was usually around 2-4 levels above the party at any given time, but managed to be a real threat by always succeeding on his plans to some degree despite the party's interferance. He's had to adjust his goals to a degree, and he didn't get much from their final confrontation, but he's always come out ahead. The party really doesn't like the guy, and their general strategy when they hear he's involved with things is to try and avoid him at all costs. They almost gave up on one of their plans entirely when they heard that he "might" be in the area.

Paseo H
2011-01-01, 11:25 PM
Yeah, I like to use cutscenes all the time, and my tentative plan is to have her kill or at least moderately inconvenience the archmage who just created a ring of wishes for her while revealing that instead of being a charming heroic sociopath, she's a deranged crusader who wants to become a reality warper.

She was traumatized by her sister being cruelly sent to her death by a hyperserious and grim commanding officer, partially out of racial prejudice. Imagine Krom from Dark Legacy Comics, played for drama instead of for laughs. The fact that said commanding officer is not a sociopath or complete monster is an important point, because as the villain reasons, there are some people who are born evil, but those who have empathy and a conscience being capable of choosing evil means she can't truly trust anyone, and therefore she has to either change reality or destroy it, for the sake of those who are good and decent.

One small masterstroke I intend with this is that she'll call the archmage by the name of the commanding officer rather than his actual name. Like I said, she's deranged.

Ytaker
2011-01-01, 11:46 PM
Do they have a mechanism to learn of her backstory?

If not they won't find out.

Plus, the whole thing doesn't sound too likely to induce respect, if they found out. She's a crazy chick with sister issues.

To really make a good insane character they have to be competent and effective as well. She has to have goals which conflict with your party's desires.

Failing to kill the archmage would definitely not induce your party's respect.

VirOath
2011-01-01, 11:48 PM
Another nice trick is to keep him entirely unpredictable. Once the PCs learn of his presence and realize he is the power behind the minions, don't just do a reveal and combat, build it up further, feed them false information.

Such as they find out that his hands are dabbling in a cult to raise up an army of demons in the sewers of the city. They fight their way down, all the while cues ringing to the beat of "Running Out of Time" as the cultists do everything in their power to slow them down. And the PCs will fail to meet the deadline, the ritual will be completed.

Yet all it does is summon a single Demon or Devil to sit in a sealed circle, to taunt and laugh at the PCs. Something that could be bargained with, that knows more than she lets on, but is of the opinion of wanting nothing to do with anything. Have the BBEG described with less than evil adjectives, like Alien.

Oh, and those cultists? Just a bunch of bandits and vagabonds that the BBEG dominated/diplomanced and buffed up, complete and utter pawns that were fed false information themselves.

Not a ruse or misdirection, the point of the exercise is just to prove that he couldn't be stopped if the PCs tried, and to mess with their heads, to force a moral question on the PCs while getting rid of some troublesome bothers for the BBEG in an amusing way.

And to really hammer it home, have this be one of the few times that the PCs walk away with little of anything of value. So that the expedition to save the city itself ran into the red. And the fact that the PCs had to put in the effort to dig anything up on this, that none of the information will have been handed on a silver platter, makes it sweeter.

PCs are cats. They will never do what you tell them, they will find ways to self sustain themselves, far too often balance perfectly on the brink of things and will break things just for the purpose of breaking things. Their weakness, curiosity. Call of C'thulu capitalized on that.

true_shinken
2011-01-01, 11:52 PM
But yeah, she's an outwardly charming heroic sociopath, who in reality is a deranged crusader on a quest to become a reality warper.

Or for those who know what this means:

Ore wa shin-sekai no kami da.

She uses a male pronoun to refer to herself? Is she tomboyish or something?

Paseo H
2011-01-02, 12:05 AM
No, I was alluding to Death Note, saying that she's kind of become the same sort of crazed knight templar as Light Yagami, who is known for that quote. She intends good but is prone to going off the slippery slope.

It's okay if you didn't understand, I was just putting it there for those who would.

Anyway, yeah, anything sounds trivial and banal if you say it in certain ways. One's glorious quest to avenge the memory of her dead sister can be explained by more cynical types as "lol crazy chick with sister issues."

umbrapolaris
2011-01-02, 12:18 AM
he want respect ? Angel, uh no Demon Summoner ! then he will impale corpses on lances like Vlad Drakul and bath in a pool of blood !

Ytaker
2011-01-02, 12:20 AM
Delusionally attacking a man because you think he is your sister's killer is still pretty banal. It's not glorious, and it's not vengence when she attacks the archmage, it's just crazy.

Being an insane character encourages your players to treat her dismissively. Mental disorders are mostly treated like that by most people.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-02, 12:23 AM
The Sauron treatment: tell, don't show.

Keep the players guessing in the dark. Make clear that even the strongest adversaries they directly face are just pawns. Illustrate the scope and vileness of his villainy by having him win a few times regardless of the player actions, by revealing he either had a back-up plan or managed to power through the obstacle they posed nonetheless.

Makes his evil manifest in ways that go outside the game rules - the sky is always red when he's near, wild-life hurries away, there's a stench of blood and sulphur etc. I often find that it's easiest to drive rules-oriented players out of their comfort zones by going outside expected mechanics, evoking the feeling that the safe-and-sound mechanics of the system aren't there to help them. It never gets old for me when players shout "I roll initiative!" when there really is nothing but darkness around.

Alternatively: Wait, this guy is the Villain?

Play the Big Bad as the one who gives the players their quests and rewards. Don't don't make obviously evil or antagonistic at all - rather, play him as a quirky yet oddly affable side-character, someone the players will start remembering the name of after a few sessions, but who won't be stealing their screen time.

Then have this familiar constant of their adventuring life do something horribly attrocious right before their eyes, just before kicking them off a cliff or locking them to starve within an ancient temple (or some other suitably dastardly move).

I both cases:

Read the Evil Overlord list. Don't have the Big Bad personally reveal any of his goals or motives, or at least undermine his reliability by proving them as ruses later on. It's an easy way to keep the players guessing if everything they hear of him is second-hand information.

Don't have him gloat - but do make him insult the PCs. My observation is that all PCs have plenty traits ripe for deconstruction - find some way for the Villain to pick them apart. :smallamused: Extra brownie points if you pull this off without the Big Bad ever being personally present, so that some witty player can't immediatly call him out in turn - it'll leave all the delicious hatred festering in the backs of the players' minds.

Try your best to ensure that eventual failure of the Big Bad is not a result of his personal incompetency, but rather that of his minions. At least once, put the PCs in a position where there is no flaw in the Villain's plans, no way for them to go wrong - expect the (in)human factors of his cronies. And make sure the cronies pay for it (and that the players know they pay for it), invoking the feeling that the Big Bad is not just some static force, but a person who can learn of his mistakes, and will actively outmanuever the PCs if they prove too much of a threat. Arrogance is over-used; sometimes, the best way to make the players take the villain seriously, is to make the villain take them seriously in turn.

Think of Sauron, again. Despite all the efforts taken by the Fellowship, in the end Sauron was right - no-one could resist the power of the One Ring. His loss in the end was much more due to bad luck than his "inability to comprehend good" he and his were often attributed with.
^ This is very good advice.

Additionally, don't make the BBEG look like just another monster to be defeated. This is the core of the problem with the "PC Smackdown" approach - it makes the BBEG something the PCs expect to get into a fight and defeat like so many orcs and kobolds before him. A memorable BBEG isn't defeated in a simple combat encounter: you defeat him by defeating his plan.

Yes, the PCs will probably fight and kill many instruments of the BBEG through the course of the campaign. However, if the Players think they are fighting the BBEG's plan rather than his person they will begin to treat the BBEG like an element of the story instead of as an element of the game.

Paseo H
2011-01-02, 12:58 AM
Delusionally attacking a man because you think he is your sister's killer is still pretty banal. It's not glorious, and it's not vengence when she attacks the archmage, it's just crazy.

Being an insane character encourages your players to treat her dismissively. Mental disorders are mostly treated like that by most people.

Well it's more like "She knows it's not him but she's transferring her hatred of her sister's killer to this man," but I get your point.

However, I must disagree with your second point.

Joker is crazy but lots of people (myself included) think he's awesome even though he's a complete monster.

But yeah, instead of a cutscene, maybe just have some bystanders show up and explain what that mysterious explosion was, i.e. using a thermal detonator on the archmage's tower.

Xuc Xac
2011-01-02, 04:51 AM
2. Ensuring that they are given the proper respect and not seen as just another pissant smug snake with delusions of grandeur?

If the villain doesn't act like a pissant smug snake, they won't be seen that way. I would strongly recommend that you completely ignore the "beat up the PCs with irresistible force" advice. That doesn't prove anything except the villain is a higher level than the PCs. When I meet a villain who's only villainy is being really powerful, I hate them but not in the way you want. I don't feel engaged with the story and I don't feel motivated to defeat the villain. I just hate them because they make the game less fun. You know who else is higher level and more powerful than the PCs? Crap like Elminster.

If you want the villain to be respected, then the villain should respect the PCs. If you want the PCs to have a personal stake in defeating this villain, then the relationship needs to be a two-way street. If the villain looks down on the PCs as insignificant specks, that's your smug arrogance and delusions of grandeur again. When the PCs thwart the villain, the villain should take notice and take the PCs seriously. When the villain thinks of the PCs, they should be seen more like James Bond rather than a speedbump or a piece of chewing gum stuck to the bottom of a shoe. If the villain treats the PCs seriously (not necessarily equals, but significant), then the PCs will treat the villain seriously.

The villain's plan can be huge and epic, but the villain should be in the PCs' league so they can identify with each other and relate to each other.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-02, 06:22 AM
The villain's plan can be huge and epic, but the villain should be in the PCs' league so they can identify with each other and relate to each other.

I disagree. First, the Villain is not always there to be "identified with" or "related to", and second, both of these things can be achieved better through personality and ideology of the villain.

Third, knowledge of the Villain's "combat stats" and the idea that "hey, we could duke it out with this guy!" are the last things you want the players to think if you're building up an intimidating Big Bad. Especially in the beginning of the adventure or campaign, the players should feel they're out of their league, feel they should tread carefully or else they're doomed.

Lets look at Sauron again. He was ways above all the might of the Fellowship combined. This is why they had to think so carefully and move cautiously to make their plan work; it is what created most of the tension in the book, the feeling that one single mistake and all will be lost forever.

I sympathize more with Oracle_Hunter here. The moment the players start to think beating the Bid Bad mano-a-mano is what they're supposed to do, they'll start to get disappointed if they can't reach him or turn out to be too weak to cope with him; alternatively, if they do fight and the players manage to cleverly OHKO him, they might feel horribly anti-climatic.

Of course, there's always the potential twist that the PCs do manage to fight and kill the BBEG... but that isn't enough! His plans are still coming to fruition, and the world is still falling apart around their ears! In LotR, Scouring of the Shire works as a minor illustration of this - Sauron might be gone, but evil still hasn't magically disappeared from the world. The after-effects will be playing out for a long, long time...

Xuc Xac
2011-01-02, 10:08 AM
Of course, there's always the potential twist that the PCs do manage to fight and kill the BBEG... but that isn't enough! His plans are still coming to fruition, and the world is still falling apart around their ears! In LotR, Scouring of the Shire works as a minor illustration of this - Sauron might be gone, but evil still hasn't magically disappeared from the world. The after-effects will be playing out for a long, long time...

I think it's better to set it up so the PCs want to defeat the villain's plan but not eliminate the villain. If the villain doesn't exist in a vacuum, then it's not too difficult. Don't just have the king or whoever say "We need you to go find Throgdor the orc warlord and destroy him before he leads an invasion of our kingdom".

Instead, you do something like have the king say, "We need you to stop the orc warbands from uniting and invading our kingdom. The single greatest threat to our future is Warlord Throgdor. Oh, there he is now! The bulky green fellow in the wolf skins talking to ambassador Variel. Come. I'll introduce you. Try to see if you can learn anything about what his next move might be. We need to weaken him enough before spring that he won't be able to invade us, but leave him strong enough to keep the hobgoblins tied up on his eastern front. If the orc tribes are scattered too thinly, we might have a hobgoblin army crossing our border before midsummer. Or worse yet, some other more unpredictable orc might take Throgdor's place and who knows what that will bring. I've heard his brother Ragnar is a nihilist who wants to see the whole world burn. Say what you will about Gruumsh worshipers like Throgdor: at least it's an ethos. Better to deal with the devil we know! Shush, now, and don't smile. Orcs consider that a threat, but puff out your chest and stare him in the eye. Ready? Here we go... Throgdor! Let me introduce you to the general who's going to crush your skull on the battlefield, you old dog!"

Ytaker
2011-01-02, 01:04 PM
Well it's more like "She knows it's not him but she's transferring her hatred of her sister's killer to this man," but I get your point.

However, I must disagree with your second point.

Joker is crazy but lots of people (myself included) think he's awesome even though he's a complete monster.

Joker isn't that insane in the movies. He's got a different way of thinking about the world, a better way, which helps him in conquering the criminal underworld. He's closer to super-sane, which is like insanity but worse. He never actually does anything illogical which wouldn't aim in accomplishing his goals.

And that's the problem. Your character is killing someone who helped her a lot for little reason but her psychosis. She is insane and is weaker because of it. Unlike the joker.

Paseo H
2011-01-02, 01:14 PM
Joker isn't that insane in the movies. He's got a different way of thinking about the world, a better way, which helps him in conquering the criminal underworld. He's closer to super-sane, which is like insanity but worse. He never actually does anything illogical which wouldn't aim in accomplishing his goals.

And that's the problem. Your character is killing someone who helped her a lot for little reason but her psychosis. She is insane and is weaker because of it. Unlike the joker.

Well I've been toying with the idea of whether or not maybe he is a complete monster and that she's been using him until she can find time to kill him.

But anyway, I'm judging the Joker by the movie, and I'm pretty sure most people would agree that he basically stole the show. Like, when you see a scene without the Joker in it, you're like "can we get back to the Joker doing awesome stuff please?"

Ytaker
2011-01-02, 01:24 PM
Well I've been toying with the idea of whether or not maybe he is a complete monster and that she's been using him until she can find time to kill him.

But anyway, I'm judging the Joker by the movie, and I'm pretty sure most people would agree that he basically stole the show. Like, when you see a scene without the Joker in it, you're like "can we get back to the Joker doing awesome stuff please?"

That would put her back into the heroic sociopath territory then.

Yeah, but it's hard to imitate him. He had lines written by a great script writer and one of the greatest actors in the modern era play him, who went very deep into the role. And, he was evil. Unlike her. Evil characters are very engrossing.

Shatteredtower
2011-01-02, 01:54 PM
Xuc Xak, that was a delightful piece to read. Thank you.

Paseo H
2011-01-02, 02:13 PM
Yeah, she's far from the most evil person in the game, though she has had her moments...like right before she originally took revenge on her commanding officer, she betrayed and killed the 'freedom fighters' who she had been cooperating with to cover her tracks, because while she liked them, they had outlived their usefulness.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-02, 02:38 PM
Joker isn't that insane in the movies. He's got a different way of thinking about the world, a better way, which helps him in conquering the criminal underworld. He's closer to super-sane, which is like insanity but worse. He never actually does anything illogical which wouldn't aim in accomplishing his goals.

And that's the problem. Your character is killing someone who helped her a lot for little reason but her psychosis. She is insane and is weaker because of it. Unlike the joker.

Har. Har. Har.

Illogical or irrational thought are not sole definitions of insanity; in fact, sociopaths and psychopaths often act and sound very rational. It's other qualities they lack, namely empathy, the ability to relate to and feel for others. Likewise, narcistic and schizophrenic people can work very rationally... under their own, deluded view of the world.

Joker is clearly psychopathic. He's insane, fair and square. The whole "supersanity" thing? Comes from Harley Quin. Do you trust her in regards to anything about the Joker? I wouldn't since she's as bat**** crazy as he is, maybe more.

'sides, it's not like insane people haven't become greatly influential criminals in the real world. In fact, grand majority of criminals posses anti-social or psychotic traits. Joker's success (or lack thereoff) can, and should be, attributed to wholly other things than his "sanity".

Godskook
2011-01-02, 04:10 PM
My players, stay out:

In my current campaign, I've got three major operators that the PC might eventually have to fight(Assuming they live long enough):

1.Mind Flayers - These guys are *INCREDIBLY* hard for the party to find at present, and are the only current 'villains' in the storyline. They've kidnapped many RL friends of the party, including one of the PC's girlfriends.

2.Wizard that brought them to the setting - This guy is a magnificent bastard who is only interacting with the party cause of a Xanatos Gambit he's running with some prototype magi-tech(The party's 1st class level came from here). I've already planned for him to rip the tech back out of the PCs later, much akin to how Jacob ripped Gregory's blight out in Dominic Deegan(with the added "huh, you survived" too). This will come complete with level loss, and the loss of the party's mental 'friends'. After that, the Wizard will do nothing further to offend the PCs, and may even come to respect them as peers. However, the party has already grown so much distrust for this man that some are considering killing the 5th party member, who's late arrival was assisted by the Wizard.

3.Tarrasque - He's scorched a 500 mile radius patch of land before being imprisoned by tons of 'heroes'. He's the "great predator" who feasts on dragons. His 'spawn' will be coming out of the wood-work soon to attempt to release him. Dragons create rules to hide their offspring from him. Kintarrans(the heroes mentioned above) wield 5th-7th level spells against anyone who tampers with his prison.

DabblerWizard
2011-01-02, 05:05 PM
There can be several super powerful beings in the campaign.

One simple way of bringing about instant fear, panic, or anxiety in the characters, is to compare the BBEG to another powerful force.

Using more eloquence or in-game banter: "You remember that sellsword that almost decimated the whole party? Well this new guy is more than twice his match".

Doomboy911
2011-01-02, 05:21 PM
I'm a fan of getting to know what you're fighting.

One that I have actually solved one of their problems they try so save this village from a dragon bearing the guys symbol. At the end the guy appeared got the dragon to bow down and beheaded him all because he wasn't part of the guy's group and he felt he was disrespecting his name. That and he seems to be everywhere a massive group of people are found dead and in one of the corpses is a blade with his symbol in it.

I keep putting him around the world as a constant thorn in their side that they can't stop.Also I try to give him an air of confidence a feeling that little can take him down and when called upon it he's correct little can hurt him and on the off chance that he does get killed he's transported to a cloned body and he may take interest in you.

Ytaker
2011-01-02, 05:33 PM
Yeah, she's far from the most evil person in the game, though she has had her moments...like right before she originally took revenge on her commanding officer, she betrayed and killed the 'freedom fighters' who she had been cooperating with to cover her tracks, because while she liked them, they had outlived their usefulness.

She really doesn't trust people.



Joker is clearly psychopathic. He's insane, fair and square. The whole "supersanity" thing? Comes from Harley Quin. Do you trust her in regards to anything about the Joker? I wouldn't since she's as bat**** crazy as he is, maybe more.

Yeah, zero empathy.

http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2007/11/10/heath-ledger-says-his-joker-has-zero-empathy/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHscQhKwoms

"I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."

I'm basing it on his own words. His greatest successes come from his immoral world view, which is hyper sane. Though he does lack empathy, which is a characteristic of insanity. I was mainly referring to the fact that the movie version of Joker lacked any of the clownish characteristics of past ideas of the Joker.

In particular, his insanity is nothing to do with him killing people because, say, they remind him of his father. He is unlike the big bad in the story in this thread. He is very clear on what is reality, and much scarier because of it. His only concession to that sort of insanity is a poor memory of his past.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-02, 06:06 PM
Good grief.

You are completely misinterpreting what Joker's saying there. Indeed, you're misinterpreting what the whole goddamn movie is out to say: namely, that Joker is wrong.

What Joker's spouting here is a typical cynical world-view. And he's only doing it to get under Batsy's skin. Joker is proven a liar and a violent sadist during the movies, all traits of a psychopath - why are you even taking his words there at face value?

Stop using the term "hyper sane". It has no established usage in psychology, it's nothing but a comic book fancy. Joker's words in the movie are nothing special, they don't even indicate he's got a particularly keen mind or even if he believes a word of what he says. Indeed, noticed the point about how he's wrong in the end? If you take Joker's words at face value, then it's proven within the film that he is deluded about human nature, and any argument he's "very clear on what is reality" goes down the toilet.

It'd be good if you actually familiarized yourself with traits of psychopathy - because many psychopaths are very keen-minded and observant of reality, despite being insane. In fact, psychopaths are highly-succesful in many competive areas of life, even outside illicit activity; they reputedly fare very well in high level business and academic endeavors.

Finally, mental illnesses don't require bad childhood to bloom. Many psychopaths don't need an excuse to hurt other people - that's why they're problematic.

If Joker is scary, it's despite his insanity, despite his lack of training and powers. He's the kind of evil who could really exist and be effective. Adding some fabricatory term like "hyper" or "super sanity" just undermines it.

DwarfFighter
2011-01-02, 06:45 PM
What do you mean with respect? And whose respect do you want, that of the players or that of the PCs?

-DF

Ytaker
2011-01-02, 06:46 PM
You are completely misinterpreting what Joker's saying there. Indeed, you're misinterpreting what the whole goddamn movie is out to say: namely, that Joker is wrong.

It's wrong for the people in general, but not wrong for Harvey Dent. He has mixed successes with his worldview. Him being super sane doesn't mean that he has to be factually right, it just means that he has a grand view of some aspect of human nature. In particular, the idea that anyone can become like him and it is only the moral restrictions of humanity that are holding people back.

He's wrong, but then, sane people aren't always right either. Being insane in a way like "In a world like this, it's only logical to be insane" is a good way to make a villain menacing.


What Joker's spouting here is a typical cynical world-view. And he's only doing it to get under Batsy's skin. Joker is proven a liar and a violent sadist during the movies, all traits of a psychopath - why are you even taking his words there at face value?

I don't remember the Joker lying much. The only time in the movie when he lies is when he mixes up Harley and the girl. What he is spouting is probably what he believes. That makes it scarier. That he really believes all the horrible things he is saying.


Stop using the term "hyper sane". It has no established usage in psychology, it's nothing but a comic book fancy. Joker's words in the movie are nothing special, they don't even indicate he's got a particularly keen mind or even if he believes a word of what he says. Indeed, noticed the point about how he's wrong in the end? If you take Joker's words at face value, then it's proven within the film that he is deluded about human nature, and any argument he's "very clear on what is reality" goes down the toilet.


Yes, I will definitely obey your order, you person on an internet forum.

The movies are based on comic books. The portrayal of him is much more of a guy who is hyper aware of society. Not aware enough, though. People are better than he thought.

His moral viewpoint is only partially true. It's right for Harvey.


It'd be good if you actually familiarized yourself with traits of psychopathy - because many psychopaths are very keen-minded and observant of reality, despite being insane. In fact, psychopaths are highly-succesful in many competive areas of life, even outside illicit activity; they reputedly fare very well in high level business and academic endeavors.

Finally, mental illnesses don't require bad childhood to bloom. Many psychopaths don't need an excuse to hurt other people - that's why they're problematic.

If Joker is scary, it's despite his insanity, despite his lack of training and powers. He's the kind of evil who could really exist and be effective. Adding some fabricatory term like "hyper" or "super sanity" just undermines it.

Yeah, sure.

Murderous psychopaths almost invariably have an abusive childhood, but regardless, that's not my point. The Joker's focus isn't on his father. His focus is on hurting people. That makes him a more effective villain.

The joker is scary because of his appearance, tics, and violence, I suspect. It's hard to make a scary villain in a dnd game. The players will just find it too easy to mock them.

Some fabricatory terms like hyper or super sanity that are from the comic the story is based on. It's a major, major theme of the movie that he believes that his view of the world is right and sane and he is trying to make others understand it. Knowledge of the underpinnings of that viewpoint helps understand it. A villain who is making the world evil is pretty freaky.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-02, 07:49 PM
It's wrong for the people in general, but not wrong for Harvey Dent. He has mixed successes with his worldview. Him being super sane doesn't mean that he has to be factually right, it just means that he has a grand view of some aspect of human nature. In particular, the idea that anyone can become like him and it is only the moral restrictions of humanity that are holding people back.

He's wrong, but then, sane people aren't always right either. Being insane in a way like "In a world like this, it's only logical to be insane" is a good way to make a villain menacing.

You do realize that by that definition, almost any sany person counts as supersane? You realize that by using the word that way, you're destroying all meaning it even had in the first place?

I think this can be relevant to thread: as a DM, it's not fruitful to get too attached to the ways you describe your villains - chances are, one witty player will deconstruct him and point out he doesn't actually have the qualities you thought he had - in such cases, it might be better to play along and either covertly "fix" the villain's behaviour (since your player so generously provided pointers!) or to swallow your pride and silently agree that the Villain isn't quite what you meant him to be.

Rest of off-topic babbling in spoilers:


I don't remember the Joker lying much. The only time in the movie when he lies is when he mixes up Harley and the girl. What he is spouting is probably what he believes. That makes it scarier. That he really believes all the horrible things he is saying.
He tells what, two or three contradictory origins for himself? Okay, go ahead and believe him nonetheless. I personally don't think his scariness has anything to do with what he says, because what he says is just cynicism - I know people in real life who believe the same things. It's his actions, whatever their motives, that are attrocious.



Yes, I will definitely obey your order, you person on an internet forum.

The movies are based on comic books. The portrayal of him is much more of a guy who is hyper aware of society. Not aware enough, though. People are better than he thought.

His moral viewpoint is only partially true. It's right for Harvey.

I know a grand total of two portrayals of Joker as "supersane"; one is Harley Quin's evaluation, and as noted, she is not reliable. The only other variation I've has "supersanity" meaning he's subconsciously aware that he's in comic book medium, and is exploiting setting rules to thrive.

Neither of these exists in the movie. Furthermore, your definiton of supersane has little to do with either, and you're ascribing things to it that are not shown in the movie. Joker's "hyper-awareness" of the society is nothing of the sort, in fact it's either hoax or proven to be wrong. All his actions in the movie are easily attributed to cynical and nihilistic outlook, as well as psychopathy.

His viewpoint being the "truth" for Harvey Dent is hardly surprising, considering he was mentally tortured and mutilated to the point of mental breakdown. You can't use delusions of another insane person to "prove" those of another.


Yeah, sure.

I take it you are not believing me. Well, you won't need to take my word for it. (http://www.suite101.com/content/corporate-psychopaths-a105336) Hare's research is notified on Wikipedia as well. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy)


Murderous psychopaths almost invariably have an abusive childhood, but regardless, that's not my point. The Joker's focus isn't on his father. His focus is on hurting people. That makes him a more effective villain.

In fiction land, you might be right. In real life, you are wrong. Psychopathy does not require abuse to be its trigger, nor do all psychopaths have a father complex. Whether or not Joker is a more effective villain due to lacking parental problems is something I have no opinion of; nevertheless, it has no bearing on whether he's a psychopath or not.


Some fabricatory terms like hyper or super sanity that are from the comic the story is based on. It's a major, major theme of the movie that he believes that his view of the world is right and sane and he is trying to make others understand it. Knowledge of the underpinnings of that viewpoint helps understand it. A villain who is making the world evil is pretty freaky.
Like said, even the comic stories which attribute such qualities to Joker question whether such evaluations are reliable.

It's a common trait for many insane persons, such a schizophrenics (especially of paranoid variety), to believe their view of the world is right and everyone else's is wrong.

Besides, even if we agree Joker's right... let's see, where'd I put it... oh yes:



Superficial charm and good intelligence
Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking


The idea that Joker's aware of the society is not contradictory with psychopathy. Like said, the concept of supersanity is meaningless, as it explains nothing more or better, and in fact there's no hint of the concept even being in play.


The joker is scary because of his appearance, tics, and violence, I suspect. It's hard to make a scary villain in a dnd game. The players will just find it too easy to mock them.

That's true. I think the same advice as above applies here - a DM has to learn to stomach it, and play along with it. Heck, I mock my villains myself, yet I still get feedback telling me they send shivers down someone's spine. It might be because my esteemed self (http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3461) is oh so awesome, but really, I think it's just that I stick with it and keep 'em doing evil.

Don't they say creative work is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration? Sometimes, the only way to get a concept working is to stick with it.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-02, 07:55 PM
(nudges) Hey, guys, not saying a discussion about the Joker wouldn't be great and all, but it's a little off-topic; do ya mind? :smallsmile:

Ytaker
2011-01-02, 08:37 PM
You do realize that by that definition, almost any sany person counts as supersane? You realize that by using the word that way, you're destroying all meaning it even had in the first place?

Yeah, I phrased that badly. Someone supersane is someone who's got a grand perspective from an insane perspective, and it makes sense to sane people.

It's one way to make insanity more freaky. The villain not only wholeheartedly believes in their own insanity but believes you should too. They may even turn some of your characters.

The villain of this story could certainly do that with her ring of wishes. Make scenarios where people can become more like her.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-02, 08:42 PM
I think the best way to implement something like that would be to get one player who's in on the joke to play it out.

Of course, considering how some players play sociopathic hobos anyway, it's sometimes a bit too easy, with the whole party converting.

Hmmm... maybe I should try that with a Hero Antagonist. :smallbiggrin:

Ytaker
2011-01-02, 08:50 PM
Playing a hero antagonist does give you a good appreciation for how hard the villains have got it. It's not all fun and games.

The villain here is pretty mistrustful so even if the entire party did turn it wouldn't go so well for them when she betrayed them. It does sound fun for them, though.

Paseo H
2011-01-02, 11:41 PM
She's distrustful, but of course the party will be special. I have yet to decide how she truly feels about the main hero, but right now she has her claws in one of the others, who, despite being a lot like the man who killed her sister, has also suffered the same trauma, of his sister's life being wasted pointlessly by a 'We Have Reserves' commanding officer. He fascinates her.

Though at the moment, she seriously dislikes the main hero. Not only could the hero be a main influence against her, the worst thing is, he could somehow try to counter the Wish spell she used on the other guy, and that would be unforgivable. Not only would would it mean she's wasted a wish, it would be like thumbing his nose at her power.

Jallorn
2011-01-02, 11:46 PM
In horror movies, the scariest parts are always what one doesn't see. Because your imagination is far more capable than anything the director could put up on that screen. Use this to your advantage, have lots of build up to the BBEG, with rumors flying about. Have a few of the rumors be totally false, a few be based on truth but totally exaggerated, and a few spot on. Contradictions are good to, they prevent your players from being disappointed in the real villain because they know from before they even meet him that some of what they've heard is false.

There will still be an element of fear and suspense even before they meet him that should carry over. The biggest problem you can run into though is to oversell the villain, so keep that in mind.

Paseo H
2011-01-03, 06:58 PM
Well it's in the process of happening now.

The hero won't get the details unless he strongarms an answer out of her but basically she said "Okay I have to go take care of something, I'll be right back" and when asked if there would be any explosions she confirmed that there would be, but only within hearing distance of where they were at, so they wouldn't be in the blast radius.

One of the wrong suppositions of what is to happen that he made also tells me that he suspects that she is, in fact, a big deal.