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true_shinken
2011-01-01, 08:31 PM
OK, so psionics unleashed for Pathfinder was released. Is the printed Pathfinder Soulknife as broken as the playtest version they presented us? Is the book good? Should I buy one and shelf my XPH?

Psyren
2011-01-02, 11:25 AM
I bought Psionics Unleashed, but lost my link to the playtest version. I can compare them and point out any significant differences for you once I find that link again.

My memory is spotty but it looks like they changed Furious Charge, which is the ability I think you had the most problem with on the playtest Soulknife. I don't see anything broken on this class; it's certainly much more powerful than the D&D Soulknife, but its skill still revolves around hitting things really hard in various ways, like most other martial classes.

Is the book good? I certainly think so - the base classes have lots more goodies, all the races are playable (in PF tradition, none of the player races have LA), and the PrCs seem to have gotten some much needed tweaks. The black-and-white art is nice while the color stuff is somewhat poor, but for $10 I wasn't expecting WotC-level quality anyway.

I can give a detailed comparison similar to Saph's later, but I'm still wrapping my head around it - and Pathfinder in general - at the moment. :smallsmile:

2xMachina
2011-01-02, 11:35 AM
My memory is spotty but it looks like they changed Furious Charge, which is the ability I think you had the most problem with on the playtest Soulknife. I don't see anything broken on this class; it's certainly much more powerful than the D&D Soulknife, but its skill still revolves around hitting things really hard in various ways, like most other martial classes.


Doesn't say much, since the D&D Soulknife sucks.

Psyren
2011-01-02, 11:38 AM
Doesn't say much, since the D&D Soulknife sucks.

Yes, that's what I was getting at with the whole "not broken" bit.

Yora
2011-01-02, 11:53 AM
It's broken bad, not broken good.

true_shinken
2011-01-02, 11:58 AM
It's broken bad, not broken good.

Actually, the playtest Soulknife was broken good. It was the best non-caster class in Pathfinder, no contest.

Yora
2011-01-02, 11:59 AM
We're talking the D&D soulknife. :smallwink:

2xMachina
2011-01-02, 12:02 PM
You know... I think I'd like to see the broken good Soulknife.

Psyren
2011-01-02, 12:02 PM
We're talking the D&D soulknife. :smallwink:

Actually, I'm talking the Pathfinder one. I still don't think it's broken (in either direction.)

Shinken, link me to that playtest and I'll paraphrase important changes.

true_shinken
2011-01-02, 12:11 PM
Actually, I'm talking the Pathfinder one. I still don't think it's broken (in either direction.)

Shinken, link me to that playtest and I'll paraphrase important changes.
It's here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=738.html).

Psyren
2011-01-02, 12:33 PM
It's here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=738.html).

You sure that's the latest playtest? I seem to remember there being a beta.

Anyhoo, differences:


The final Soulknife has less skillpoints.
Mindblade Specialist, Form Focus, Hidden Knowledge and Enlightened Mind have all been scrapped. Instead, the final Soulknife just gets more and more Blade Skills. Accordingly, more blade skills have been added, and existing ones split in two (e.g. "Furious Charge"/"Furious Charge, Improved") to fill those additional slots. You of course must have the initial version of a blade skill to learn its improved version.
There are level limits on some of the blade skills, rather than "you must have X blade skills before you can learn this one."
There is no longer a "defender/striker/skirmisher" choice for your soulknife - you just choose slashing/piercing/bludgeoning and one-handed/dual-wield/2-handed for your mind blade (or mind mace, mind spike, whatever you want to call it) and can reselect these properties as a full-round action. Reallocating the enhancement bonuses however takes 8 hours of rest.
Furious Charge has indeed been nerfed, it no longer gives you Pounce. The best you can get is one additional attack at the end of your Charge (i.e. 2 attacks, unless you can somehow get more), and then only with Improved Furious Charge, which means the Psywar is still the easiest way to get true Pounce that I know of.

true_shinken
2011-01-02, 12:43 PM
Thanks, Psyren.
It looks a lot closer to the T4 balance point I usually see in Pathfinder books.

Psyren
2011-01-02, 01:29 PM
Yes - it's still weaker than the Psywar (imo), but can now hold its own.

Advantages over the D&D Soulknife are considerable:


Full BAB
Medium Armor Proficiency
You can shape your mind blade as early as 1st-level (even into a 2-hander)
Your mind blade benefits from Powerful Build accordingly
Your mind blade enhancements are accelerated by one level (you get a +1 mind blade at level 3 instead of level 4, and a +1 with 1 special ability at 5 instead of 6, for instance.)
You now choose which target you want to discharge your Psychic Strike on, rather than it automatically going off on the first eligible target struck. Furthermore, you can now affect targets otherwise immune to mind-affecting abilities, so long as they are not actually mindless (i.e. no Int score).
Here's a big one: PrCs with "+1 level of existing manifesting class" improve your mind blade's enhancement bonus accordingly. This means you can PrC into, say, Elocater and still end up with a +7 or +8 Mind Blade (maximum +5 enhancement, with +2-3 of abilities). You give up Blade Skills by going this route, however, creating a trade-off.
In an AMF/NPF, you now get a bonus on the Will save to maintain or reform your mind blade equal to its current enhancement bonus. The capstone keeps you from ever having to make this check, and also lets you totally reconfigure your blade without needing to rest. (However, your blade still loses all its enhancement bonuses even if you maintain it, becoming effectively a masterwork weapon.)
The shape of your mind blade is no longer set as a sword - the actual shape is purely fluff-based and can be almost anything. (the soulknife picture in the book is an eastern woman dual-wielding mind-chakram, similar to this (http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee284/JeffreyAcosta/Warriors%20Orochi/SunShangXiang.png).)


The Blade Skills are icing on the cake, including the normal soulknife abilities like Bladewind and Knife to the Soul, as well as brand new (and nifty) ones like Dual Imbue and Combat Slide.

The new Soulknife looks like it would be a blast to play, and a great way to ease your gaming group into psionics without actually picking a manifesting class.

true_shinken
2011-01-02, 05:00 PM
Psyren, you did it. I'm sold on the Pathfinder Soulknife.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-02, 05:27 PM
It does sound good.

Psyren
2011-01-02, 08:43 PM
It seems to have a niche similar to the Scout: a mobile striker, equally comfortable in melee or at range, with Psychic Strike filling in for Skirmish.
It also has a sizeable bag of tricks - like being able to take an immediate 5-foot step if an enemy misses you, sprouting hooks from your mind blade that make enemies bleed + aid you in Climb checks, or a special attack that freezes enemies in place (not a stun.)

All four classes seem to have been buffed though.

true_shinken
2011-01-03, 05:05 PM
All four classes seem to have been buffed though.

This is bad in my book.
Psions don't need a boost, neither do Psychic Warriors. I find Wilders fine as well, but they fall short of their expected power level.
A boost to Wilders - that I can see. To Psions and Psychic Warriors... not so much.

Kalaska'Agathas
2011-01-03, 06:48 PM
This is bad in my book.
Psions don't need a boost, neither do Psychic Warriors. I find Wilders fine as well, but they fall short of their expected power level.
A boost to Wilders - that I can see. To Psions and Psychic Warriors... not so much.

I think by boost, he means that PsyWars and Psions have received class features beyond manifesting and bonus feats, which is in keeping with Pathfinder's treatment of Fighters and Wizards/Sorcerers.

Psyren
2011-01-03, 07:27 PM
This is bad in my book.
Psions don't need a boost, neither do Psychic Warriors. I find Wilders fine as well, but they fall short of their expected power level.
A boost to Wilders - that I can see. To Psions and Psychic Warriors... not so much.

As Kalaska pointed out, Sorcerers and Wizards were buffed despite being high-tiers already; the Psionic classes had to be improved as well lest they fall behind their arcane brethren.

One of the core design philosophies of Pathfinder was "add, don't take away." This was applied to classes of all tiers. (Though a few, like the Druid, came out somewhat worse for wear.)

Where Wilders are concerned, I actually don't think they did enough. The wonderful Educated Wilder ACF has now been included in the base ruleset, but it is only available to one type of Wilder (Student.) The Artificer has decent benefits as well, but the rest don't seem to gain enough to compensate for their low powers known.

Popertop
2011-01-05, 02:57 AM
What made the druid worse?

Psyren
2011-01-05, 08:33 AM
What made the druid worse?

tyck explains it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7610934#post7610934)

They're still good, (great even), just weaker.