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Dralnu
2011-01-01, 10:09 PM
During a 12 hour flight from Argentina back to Canada, I started wondering about the possibilities of a DnD-based MUD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD) I've wanted to create and host a MUD for a while and now I actually have the means to do so. I know there must be others like me that love the idea of a faithful DnD conversion, so let's brainstorm!

I've only played 3.5, but I've been reading 4th ed's PHB and DMG and it seems to be the best version to carry this out. Though I'd like to remain as faithful to the core mechanics as possible, there obviously will be many conversion issues that I'll need to address. Here are problems so far and some possible corrections.

1) Converting 4e's turn-based combat system into real-time action:

First, changing the rounds into something workable. I have an idea of achieving this by making actions produce "rounds," each round lasting a second and not allowing a similar action to be used until the time is up. A typical standard action will produce 6 standard rounds, which means 6 seconds until you can activate a new standard action. I envision having 3 separate types of rounds: standard, movement, and augment. Standard will restrict standard actions, movement will restrict movement actions, and augment will handle minor actions among other things. This should maintain the action types in a real-time setting without changing their purpose.

Ex. You're a level 1 Wizard fighting a goblin. You decide to use Magic Missile targeting the goblin, an at-will ability that requires a standard action. This is how it'd look like. <> denotes the commands you'd use:

[Goblin Cave, Entrance]
Room Description.
You also see: A goblin.
Exits: north, east, south

<target goblin>
You are now targeting a goblin.

<magic missile>
You launch a silvery bolt of force at a goblin!
Attack: 1d20 + 3 = 16 vs. Reflex: ???
... and hits, dealing 4 force damage!
The blast of force pierces the chest!
6 Standard Rounds Remaining

<ray of frost>
You must wait 3 Standard Rounds before you can do that.

There will be a counter on the interface to track how many rounds are remaining.

2) At-will, Encounter, and Daily Powers:

These can easily be swapped out for a cooldown system. Abilities have cooldown timers that don't allow them to be used again until their cooldown is complete. At-wills have no cooldown, while dailies have significantly higher cooldowns than encounter powers. I'm not sure about the right numbers yet, but I'm thinking for now something like 30second cooldown for encounter powers and 5 minute cooldown for daily powers. Ideally I want the cooldown to accurately reflect the power's strength, but not make the cooldown feel too long in a game that has more combat than a usual campaign.

Also, abilities that say "until end of encounter" will have to be given a specific amount of time instead. Probably something like 1 minute duration.

Like round times, cooldown timers will be tracked on the interface.

3) Movement and Distance:

Spatial elements are essential in D&D and must be incorporated unless I want to overhaul the entire system, which would defeat the purpose. Still, incorporating this into a MUD is a little tricky. I have an idea of how to solve this but it looks a little weird on paper.

Like all MUDs, areas will be divided into rooms. Each room will be a specific size. Currently I'm thinking 60x60ft. Moving from one room to another with an "average" movement speed produces 1 Movement Round. This is an elegant method of making sure people aren't being frustrated with moving around an area, but still prevents people from blasting through continents at warp speed. Significant reductions of movement speed from things like difficult terrain, slow effects, or a broken leg will increase the Movement Rounds required to move from one room to another. Likewise, a significant movement speed increase may lower the Movement Round to move from room to room down to 0. Okay, so far so good right?

Now for the ugly part. Distance in combat has to be accounted for or else the whole combat system falls apart. Because battles take place within rooms, that means rooms themselves need to allow for distance so that combat works as intended.

My idea is this: split up rooms into planes, an inner and outer plane. When you enter a room, you're automatically placed within the room's inner plane. Close range abilities can only be used on targets on the same plane that you're on, while long range abilities can target different planes. Moving from one plane to another produces 6 Movement Rounds with an average movement speed of 6 squares. +1 square movement is -1 Movement Rounds.

Example: You're a level 7 dwarf cleric adventuring with a level 7 dragonborn fighter named Bob. You're squaring off with an ogre chieftan and two ogres.

[Ogre Chieftan's Tent, Throne]
Room Description.
You see in the inner plane: two ogres, Bob.
You see in the outer plane: an ogre chieftan, a blood-stained throne.
Exits: east.

<target chieftan>
You're now targeting an ogre chieftan.

<searing light>
You fire a holy ray of searing light at an ogre chieftan!
Attack: 1d20 + 9 = 22 vs. Reflex: ???
... and hits, dealing 10 radiant damage!
The searing heat scorches the head!
An ogre chieftan is blinded!
6 Standard Rounds Remaining
Searing Light Cooldown: 30 Seconds Remaining

<bastion of health, Bob>
You invoke a prayer directed at Bob. He becomes instantly fortified!
6 Augment Rounds Remaining
Bastion of Health Cooldown: 30 Seconds Remaining

An ogre swings a morningstar at you!
Attack: ??? vs. AC: 23
... and hits, dealing 12 damage!
The savage blow smashes into the ribs!

An ogre swings a morningstar at Bob!
... and misses!

Bob enters a defensive stance!

Bob taunts nearby enemies over before attacking all that draw near!
Bob swings his greatsword at an ogre!
... and hits, dealing 9 damage!
The horizontal slash leaves a bloody streak across a leg!
Bob swings his greatsword at an ogre!
... CRITICAL HIT, dealing 23 damage!
The diagonal slash removes the head from the body!
An ogre flails in agony and dies!

<split the sky>
You're too far away from the target to use this ability.

<move outer>
You move into the outer plane.
7 Movement Rounds Remaining.

<split the sky>
You invoke ancient words of wrath as you swing with your thundering warhammer at an ogre chieftan!
Attack: 1d20 + 8 = 18 vs. Fortitude: ???
... and hits, dealing 9 damage!
The horizontal swing crashes into an arm!
An ogre chieftan is knocked prone!
6 Standard Rounds Remaining
Split The Sky Cooldown: 30 Seconds Remaining

An ogre chieftan is no longer blinded!

<look>
[Ogre Chieftan's Tent, Throne]
Room Description.
You see in the inner plane: an ogre, Bob.
You see in the outer plane: a prone ogre chieftan, a blood-stained throne.
Exits: east.

Obviously this is a big simplification of distances in D&D. In this current state I'm not even sure if things like opportunity attack triggers will even be worth implementing. I'm hoping that it doesn't mess up the balance of abilities too much.

4) Converting Skills

All skills will be passively rolled out of sight by the client. Things like Stealth, Perception, Climb, and Swim are easy conversions to a MUD. Others may not be possible.

I'm thinking I might have a new use for the Knowledges though. When you encounter a creature for the first time you're given a knowledge roll if you have the appropriate skill. If you beat the required DCs, you pick up some useful information. By <examine>'ing the creature, you might find extra information about the beast, including type and even vulnerabilities as the skill describes in the book. But the best DC's, those will give you that missing information blocked out by ???'s when you interact with it in combat. This makes knowledge skills quite useful indeed.

5) XP and Leveling:

I'll go the normal MMORPG route and have large areas where monsters roam that PCs can enter and kill things for XP and do basic quests. The most desirable locations, however, will be "elite areas" with far more difficult creatures that require groups to defeat and offer up much greater rewards.

This part of the game troubles me the most though. I don't want people to just grind away. I want to encourage RP and social interaction as well. I'm not too sure how to accomplish that.

Well, that's it for my blueprints so far. Thoughts? Any other potential problems that I might come across but haven't realized yet?

Maxios
2011-01-01, 10:11 PM
During a 12 hour flight from Argentina back to Canada, I started wondering about the possibilities of a DnD-based MUD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD) I've wanted to create and host a MUD for a while and now I actually have the means to do so. I know there must be others like me that love the idea of a faithful DnD conversion, so let's brainstorm!

I've only played 3.5, but I've been reading 4th ed's PHB and DMG and it seems to be the best version to carry this out. Though I'd like to remain as faithful to the core mechanics as possible, there obviously will be many conversion issues that I'll need to address. Here are problems so far and some possible corrections.

1) Converting 4e's turn-based combat system into real-time action:

First, changing the rounds into something workable. I have an idea of achieving this by making actions produce "rounds," each round lasting a second and not allowing a similar action to be used until the time is up. A typical standard action will produce 6 standard rounds, which means 6 seconds until you can activate a new standard action. I envision having 3 separate types of rounds: standard, movement, and augment. Standard will restrict standard actions, movement will restrict movement actions, and augment will handle minor actions among other things. This should maintain the action types in a real-time setting without changing their purpose.

Ex. You're a level 1 Wizard fighting a goblin. You decide to use Magic Missile targeting the goblin, an at-will ability that requires a standard action. This is how it'd look like. <> denotes the commands you'd use:

[Goblin Cave, Entrance]
Room Description.
You also see: A goblin.
Exits: north, east, south

<target goblin>
You are now targeting a goblin.

<magic missile>
You launch a silvery bolt of force at a goblin!
Attack: 1d20 + 3 = 16 vs. Reflex: ???
... and hits, dealing 4 force damage!
The blast of force pierces the chest!
6 Standard Rounds Remaining

<ray of frost>
You must wait 3 Standard Rounds before you can do that.

There will be a counter on the interface to track how many rounds are remaining.

2) At-will, Encounter, and Daily Powers:

These can easily be swapped out for a cooldown system. Abilities have cooldown timers that don't allow them to be used again until their cooldown is complete. At-wills have no cooldown, while dailies have significantly higher cooldowns than encounter powers. I'm not sure about the right numbers yet, but I'm thinking for now something like 30second cooldown for encounter powers and 5 minute cooldown for daily powers. Ideally I want the cooldown to accurately reflect the power's strength, but not make the cooldown feel too long in a game that has more combat than a usual campaign.

Also, abilities that say "until end of encounter" will have to be given a specific amount of time instead. Probably something like 1 minute duration.

Like round times, cooldown timers will be tracked on the interface.

3) Movement and Distance:

Spatial elements are essential in D&D and must be incorporated unless I want to overhaul the entire system, which would defeat the purpose. Still, incorporating this into a MUD is a little tricky. I have an idea of how to solve this but it looks a little weird on paper.

Like all MUDs, areas will be divided into rooms. Each room will be a specific size. Currently I'm thinking 60x60ft. Moving from one room to another with an "average" movement speed produces 1 Movement Round. This is an elegant method of making sure people aren't being frustrated with moving around an area, but still prevents people from blasting through continents at warp speed. Significant reductions of movement speed from things like difficult terrain, slow effects, or a broken leg will increase the Movement Rounds required to move from one room to another. Likewise, a significant movement speed increase may lower the Movement Round to move from room to room down to 0. Okay, so far so good right?

Now for the ugly part. Distance in combat has to be accounted for or else the whole combat system falls apart. Because battles take place within rooms, that means rooms themselves need to allow for distance so that combat works as intended.

My idea is this: split up rooms into planes, an inner and outer plane. When you enter a room, you're automatically placed within the room's inner plane. Close range abilities can only be used on targets on the same plane that you're on, while long range abilities can target different planes. Moving from one plane to another produces 6 Movement Rounds with an average movement speed of 6 squares. +1 square movement is -1 Movement Rounds.

Example: You're a level 7 dwarf cleric adventuring with a level 7 dragonborn fighter named Bob. You're squaring off with an ogre chieftan and two ogres.

[Ogre Chieftan's Tent, Throne]
Room Description.
You see in the inner plane: two ogres, Bob.
You see in the outer plane: an ogre chieftan, a blood-stained throne.
Exits: east.

<target chieftan>
You're now targeting an ogre chieftan.

<searing light>
You fire a holy ray of searing light at an ogre chieftan!
Attack: 1d20 + 9 vs. Reflex: ???
... and hits, dealing 10 radiant damage!
The searing heat scorches the head!
An ogre chieftan is blinded!
6 Standard Rounds Remaining
Searing Light Cooldown: 30 Seconds Remaining

<bastion of health, Bob>
You invoke a prayer directed at Bob. He becomes instantly fortified!
6 Augment Rounds Remaining
Bastion of Health Cooldown: 30 Seconds Remaining

An ogre swings a morningstar at you!
Attack: ??? vs. AC: 23
... and hits, dealing 12 damage!
The savage blow smashes into the ribs!

An ogre swings a morningstar at Bob!
... and misses!

Bob enters a defensive stance!

Bob taunts nearby enemies over before attacking all that draw near!
Bob swings his greatsword at an ogre!
... and hits, dealing 9 damage!
The horizontal slash leaves a bloody streak across a leg!
Bob swings his greatsword at an ogre!
... CRITICAL HIT, dealing 23 damage!
The diagonal slash removes the head from the body!
An ogre flails in agony and dies!

<split the sky>
You're too far away from the target to use this ability.

<move outer>
You move into the outer plane.
7 Movement Rounds Remaining.

<split the sky>
You invoke ancient words of wrath as you swing with your thundering warhammer at an ogre chieftan!
Attack: 1d20 + 8 vs. Fortitude: ???
... and hits, dealing 9 damage!
The horizontal swing crashes into an arm!
An ogre chieftan is knocked prone!
6 Standard Rounds Remaining
Split The Sky Cooldown: 30 Seconds Remaining

An ogre chieftan is no longer blinded!

<look>
[Ogre Chieftan's Tent, Throne]
Room Description.
You see in the inner plane: an ogre, Bob.
You see in the outer plane: a prone ogre chieftan, a blood-stained throne.
Exits: east.

Obviously this is a big simplification of distances in D&D. In this current state I'm not even sure if things like opportunity attack triggers will even be worth implementing. I'm hoping that it doesn't mess up the balance of abilities too much.

4) Converting Skills

All skills will be passively rolled out of sight by the client. Things like Stealth, Perception, Climb, and Swim are easy conversions to a MUD. Others may not be possible.

I'm thinking I might have a new use for the Knowledges though. When you encounter a creature for the first time you're given a knowledge roll if you have the appropriate skill. If you beat the required DCs, you pick up some useful information. By <examine>'ing the creature, you might find extra information about the beast, including type and even vulnerabilities as the skill describes in the book. But the best DC's, those will give you that missing information blocked out by ???'s when you interact with it in combat. This makes knowledge skills quite useful indeed.

5) XP and Leveling:

I'll go the normal MMORPG route and have large areas where monsters roam that PCs can enter and kill things for XP and do basic quests. The most desirable locations, however, will be "elite areas" with far more difficult creatures that require groups to defeat and offer up much greater rewards.

This part of the game troubles me the most though. I don't want people to just grind away. I want to encourage RP and social interaction as well. I'm not too sure how to accomplish that.

Well, that's it for my blueprints so far. Thoughts? Any other potential problems that I might come across but haven't realized yet?

Genius. Just genius. This could be really cool :smallbiggrin:

Dralnu
2011-01-02, 09:54 AM
Thanks. I'm hoping that it'll be something special when it's done.

I guess my biggest worry now is: how much material can I copy without getting into legal issues? I don't even know where to even research that kind of legal stuff. :smalleek:

Yora
2011-01-02, 09:58 AM
The most probably answer is: You're not allowed to.

3rd Edition is a special case because of the OGL. If you make a game based on the SRD, it's okay and you can modify it as much as you want.
Converting it into a 4E clone could get you into trouble, and you certainly wouldn't be allowed to make any claims it has something to do with D&D.

Dralnu
2011-01-02, 10:49 AM
What about stuff mentioned in the SRD but used in 4th ed? For example, Magic Missile is mentioned in the SRD, could I use how it's represented in 4th ed with my modifications (ie. it produces "6 Standard Rounds")?

If I just renamed and refluffed anything that doesn't show up in the SRD would I be alright? Any lawyers in the playground? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Wiki to the rescue again. The OGL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Game_License) allows me to use the Open Game Content found in the SRD...
"...the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity...."

... but nothing that embodies the Product Identity...
"...product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark..."

... which may or may not allow me to use general spells or monsters found in the SRD, they're not very clear.

HOWEVER! The GSL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_System_License) is like the OGL for 4th edition, but apparently more restrictive. Now I have to read a ton of fun legal stuff over here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome) So maybe I can still do my thing! Woo woo!

Ichneumon
2011-01-02, 11:04 AM
We're not allowed to give legal advise on the forum.

But I'd say, without having any legal authority, that you could just make an awesome MUD based on "generic swords and sorcery fantasy" with races and class options so people can play D&D... without playing D&D. Just make up your own mechanics and you'd be fine.

Thespianus
2011-01-02, 03:20 PM
Having been away from the MUD-community for almost 20 years (I cut my teeth on MUD on good old LP-MUDs in the early 90ies) I can add nothing to the current state of MUDs, but the basic mechanics should be the same. The only trouble that I see is that it's hard to use a turn based mechanic and translate that into the "live" environment of a MUD, where entities act on a server based heart beat.

My major peeve about DnD-based games (after the earlu Pool of Radiance-series) is that it's almost impossible to manage the turn based action with the same precision as with a pen and paper game. Being an avid NWN2-player, that is my only peeve with the game: Some stuff pertaining to the action economy and positioning (for flanking, for example) just doesn't work right, and I believe that would be even more so in a MUD based environment.

If you can work around that, I think it would be great to run a DnD MUD! :)