Anyone else feel that "suprise inspections" was too easy?

[paladinofshojo]

It makes sense if you think about it really, a lawful evil dystopia wouldn't really have a system of checks and balances to limit the power of the military/police state/party in power. So there really shouldn't be anyone doing any "inspections" in the first place. There is no "media watchdog" or infighting between officials over what's best for the country, there's only one political group, they control everything and if you get in their way, you'll die, that's it, no more. So I doubt "inspections" mean anything as to the fact that there's no one who's in power that's going to do anything about it and the people can't even be publicly outraged by such travesties if the prisoners' conditions were brought to light..

Aside from that, if we have a police state willing to kill reporters who talk too much and end up being replaced like an ordinary occurance or condemn people who failed to just show their proper papers then what makes you think that they care enough to spend resources to end abuse and corruption within their prison system?

[Falconer]

1) A natural 20 on a bluff check.

2) There wouldn't just have to be an inspection to make sure the prisoners are treated humanely. Like you said, in an Evil Empire (tm) that wouldn't make much sense. But they could be checking to see whether, say, there was proper security. Also, keep in mind that the prisoners are used in the arena--ill-treated, half-dead gladiators tend not to be the most entertaining.

[Felixc-91]

all your statements make sense. your just overlooking something. there is also the surprise inspections for the purpose of insuring that the gaurds are preforming to spec. while making sure the prisoners are well cared for probably isn't high on the to do list, insuring that said prisoners don't escape, probably is. making the gaurds are attentive, in position, and prepared. inspecting the walls, locks, etc. that kind of stuff.

[paladinofshojo]

all your statements make sense. your just overlooking something. there is also the surprise inspections for the purpose of insuring that the gaurds are preforming to spec. while making sure the prisoners are well cared for probably isn't high on the to do list, insuring that said prisoners don't escape, probably is. making the gaurds are attentive, in position, and prepared. inspecting the walls, locks, etc. that kind of stuff.

Haley specifically stated that they were checking if "conditions were safe for your older prisoners". Aside from that, no doubt any fine tuned government conspiracy has inspections now and then, but in a lawful evil society they probably don't have "surprise" inspections, instead they probably have an assessment at the end of the month, but it would probably be something along the lines of "doing their job adequately"...it's not like the higher ups would care that their grunts are corrupt goons that extort the civilians or kill passersby for amusement...

[Pyron]

Haley specifically stated that they were checking if "conditions were safe for your older prisoners".

Safe as in they're secure in their cells. Prisoners who can easily escape tend to get burned alive - which is very unsafe. :smallsmile:

[Felixc-91]

Haley specifically stated that they were checking if "conditions were safe for your older prisoners". which probably gave the guard a bonus to his intelligence check


Aside from that, no doubt any fine tuned government conspiracy has inspections now and then, but in a lawful evil society they probably don't have "surprise" inspections, instead they probably have an assessment at the end of the month, but it would probably be something along the lines of "doing their job adequately"...it's not like the higher ups would care that their grunts are corrupt goons that extort the civilians or kill passersby for amusement... look, the point of the Surprise part of the inspection is to make sure the people don't slack off every day other than that of the inspection. and the point of keeping them at their posts isn't keeping them from abusing people, its to make sure the security system they are part of functions properly. if the gaurds are out of position or not paying attention because they are hurting someone then there's the possibility of someone infiltrating or exfiltrating the jail.

[paladinofshojo]

look, the point of the Surprise part of the inspection is to make sure the people don't slack off every day other than that of the inspection. and the point of keeping them at their posts isn't keeping them from abusing people, its to make sure the security system they are part of functions properly. if the gaurds are out of position or not paying attention because they are hurting someone then there's the possibility of someone infiltrating or exfiltrating the jail.


That may be true, but this is a lawful evil empire, it's more likely fueled by fear rather than the direct threat of a supervisor. Since the chances are that the guards would be executed for even the slightest screw up, I doubt it would take that many surprise inspections to keep them in line.

[Felixc-91]

That may be true, but this is a lawful evil empire, it's more likely fueled by fear rather than the direct threat of a supervisor. Since the chances are that the guards would be executed for even the slightest screw up, I doubt it would take that many surprise inspections to keep them in line. of course, the mere threat of surprise inspections is usually enough, you just have to do one every once and then to make sure people don't see it as a bluff. and your right, it would probably be doubly effective in a judicial system like tarquin's.

[paladinofshojo]

you just have to do one every once and then to make sure people don't see it as a bluff..

Yes but again, this is an evil empire we're talking about, so they probably wouldn't do things the same way as a good kingdom. For instance, someone as dangerously genre savy as Tarquin wouldn't let even the slightest rumors go unnoticed, if there was even the slightest whisper that there is treason from one soldier in his army, he'd execute that soldier's entire platoon just to be on the safe side. So it would take care of the problem of them slacking off on duty as the fact that their lives can be ended with just words.

[suszterpatt]

Three words:

Maxxed Bluff Skill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html)

[Morquard]

I don't quite understand this threat? You argue that Tarquin because he's an evil overlord of an evil empire doesn't need or do surprise inspections?
Yeah well, he doesn't, see the handbook.

Or what are you trying to say? That Haley and Elan should have known that, because it's logical that they obviously don't do them? Remember it was Elan who said that, Haley had to go with it then

[Forum Explorer]

I think he's saying they shouldn't have needed the manual

[NerfTW]

It's called a joke. This comic still makes them sometimes.

:haley:"We were a lot safer when we just made fairly obvious jokes about the rules!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0242.html)


You're really over thinking it. Especially since the second guard DIDN'T fall for it. The fact that he had a manual to refer to is the joke. You're right. There wouldn't be surprise inspections to check prisoner conditions. The first guard was fooled by the fact that it was Tarquin's son.

[Morquard]

They should have continued the bluff instead of running

"So? My dad said I take over the prison, I wanted to take a look at it. He didn't tell me yet that we don't do surprise inspections. You know my dad right? He's your boss. Sure you can capture me now, I guess technically you'd be right to do so, but do you really think my dad will be happy if you capture his son. The same dad that just crucified 30 people and torched them to make a pretty sign to make said son - me - happy? Up to you guys"

[faustin]

It´s difficult to make a consistent bluff to someone with Elan´s "help"
You remember, :elan: ""Bluff, bluff bluff the stupid guards!""

[Leecros]

They should have continued the bluff instead of running

"So? My dad said I take over the prison, I wanted to take a look at it. He didn't tell me yet that we don't do surprise inspections. You know my dad right? He's your boss. Sure you can capture me now, I guess technically you'd be right to do so, but do you really think my dad will be happy if you capture his son. The same dad that just crucified 30 people and torched them to make a pretty sign to make said son - me - happy? Up to you guys"

hindsight is always 20/20

I've had adventurers in a similar situation do the exact same thing they did.

[JonestheSpy]

I think the OP is mistaking Lawful Evil for Lawful Stupid. Surprise inspections are one of the best ways to make sure people are doing their job right, and a government would have to have gone wayyyy into Order>Sense to not have them.

Tarquin is just genre-savvy enough to know that in his universe the likelihood of intruders using the "Surprise Inspection" ruse outweighs the actual benefits of having them.

[Morquard]

I think the OP is mistaking Lawful Evil for Lawful Stupid. Surprise inspections are one of the best ways to make sure people are doing their job right, and a government would have to have gone wayyyy into Order>Sense to not have them.
You don't really need surprise inspections for that.
Just make sure every guard is keeping an eye on the other guards and reports any wrong behaviour. Then you publically punish said guard according to what he did wrong. Sometimes you punish other guards that should have reported something but didn't (but you know because a third guard reported it), to make sure guards actually report things.

Yeah, that's Stasi and Gestapo methods but we're talking about an evil regime here.

[Felixc-91]

You don't really need surprise inspections for that.
Just make sure every guard is keeping an eye on the other guards and reports any wrong behaviour. Then you publically punish said guard according to what he did wrong. Sometimes you punish other guards that should have reported something but didn't (but you know because a third guard reported it), to make sure guards actually report things.

Yeah, that's Stasi and Gestapo methods but we're talking about an evil regime here.geee, thats... an interesting method. you do know that fear of punishment can drive people away from following the rules, right? especially since working together can increase the likelihood of making friends, and the fear of getting your friend executed is a excellent reason not to report him? there's even the possibility of gaurds murdering each other to stop themselves from getting reported. surprise inspections work better because it allows the gaurds to trust each other and work together more effectively.

[Morquard]

geee, thats... an interesting method. you do know that fear of punishment can drive people away from following the rules, right? especially since working together can increase the likelihood of making friends, and the fear of getting your friend executed is a excellent reason not to report him? there's even the possibility of gaurds murdering each other to stop themselves from getting reported. surprise inspections work better because it allows the gaurds to trust each other and work together more effectively.
Sure but think about this:
4 people witness a report-worthy incident or are involved in some major screwup and decide not to report it.
Now just one of them has to think "Ok, so I play poker every week with Jim, Bob, and Frank, but do I really trust them. I mean, TRUST them? With my life? If just one of them reports this, I'm dead, while they get a promotion. I mean, I like them and all, but I like myself a good lot better. Damn it, it's gonna be me that gets that promotion! I'm gonna report this right away"
Just one.

I'm not saying surprise inspections aren't good, I'm not even saying they aren't better, but they're not the only way.

[Merellis]

Well, the inspections for how the prisoners are treated make sense in a number of ways.

For one, Red is being held for a ransom, and I believe Tarquin mentioned they do that all the time, so them being alive would be a good idea. There is also the fact that they have the Gladiatorial matches, so having them in shape enough to do so for the entertainment of the populace makes sense.

[paladinofshojo]

Well, the inspections for how the prisoners are treated make sense in a number of ways.

For one, Red is being held for a ransom, and I believe Tarquin mentioned they do that all the time, so them being alive would be a good idea. There is also the fact that they have the Gladiatorial matches, so having them in shape enough to do so for the entertainment of the populace makes sense.

Well from Tarquin's attitude towards his ransomed prisoners, it doesn't seem to be he cares much for the prisoners he ransoms. Not enough to make sure they're comfortable at least as "Red" has suffered from malnutrition for 3 years. Asides from that, real gladiators weren't exactly given cushy positions in life either. They were whipped, beaten, and then forced to clobber each other with REAL weapons in practice, what makes you think that they would be any better off in the Empire of Blood?

[Merellis]

Well from Tarquin's attitude towards his ransomed prisoners, it doesn't seem to be he cares much for the prisoners he ransoms. Not enough to make sure they're comfortable at least as "Red" has suffered from malnutrition for 3 years. Asides from that, real gladiators weren't exactly given cushy positions in life either. They were whipped, beaten, and then forced to clobber each other with REAL weapons in practice, what makes you think that they would be any better off in the Empire of Blood?

I was thinking more of making sure that most of the prisoners can live long enough to be in the Gladiator Ring, and to keep the ransomed ones alive long enough for a reasonable time to get the money, then just not care.

[Cerlis]

Haley and Elan didnt have 20 minutes to think of a Logical lie with not holes, that made perfect sense based on the intricacies of the government and society.

Its a cliche for a reason. it was a sensible last minute-out-your-ass excuse. for a sudden random bluff check.

Sorry, but though one can talk about the sensibilities behind it, it is and always will be a lie they had to pull out suddenly. Not part of an intricate plan

[paladinofshojo]

I was thinking more of making sure that most of the prisoners can live long enough to be in the Gladiator Ring, and to keep the ransomed ones alive long enough for a reasonable time to get the money, then just not care.

Like Geoff said, the Warden only cares about the best fighters and the worst...and besides it's been three years since the ransom note was given to Haley so the odds are that Tarquin probably forgot about him a while back or doesn't really care about ransoming him that much, after all he has the wealth of an entire continent at the beck of his call.

[Swordpriest]

I think the OP is mistaking Lawful Evil for Lawful Stupid. Surprise inspections are one of the best ways to make sure people are doing their job right, and a government would have to have gone wayyyy into Order>Sense to not have them.

Tarquin is just genre-savvy enough to know that in his universe the likelihood of intruders using the "Surprise Inspection" ruse outweighs the actual benefits of having them.

While it's true that surprise inspections are useful, Tarquin can still get the benefits of them without the risks by using a little creative scrying.

[TreesOfDeath]

This pic can go in here to

http://unmotivationalposters.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=458&g2_serialNumber=2

[King of Nowhere]

Surpirse inspection is one of the commonest excuses when an hero breaks into a prison. Just like faking illness is the stereotyped excuse to break out of prison. Or throwing a rock in the bushes is another stereotyped way to distract the guards.
Those are very stupid excuses, and would never work for real - not to mention they've been used to death, and you would expect guards to be prepared. I suppose Rich is poking fun at the conventions

[Lemonus]

It's called a joke. This comic still makes them sometimes.

I think that's it. People are really over-thinking this.

[Nimrod's Son]

I think that's it. People are really over-thinking this.
Maybe, but at least they stopped talking about it ten days ago. :smallwink: