View Full Version : For epic level-ed campaigns:

2011-01-02, 02:24 AM
Is it just me or do the saves of the epic level monsters pretty much ensure that they wont be affected by spells with a save unless a natural 1 is rolled. Looking at the saves for even a CR 24 monster its lowest save is a +18 which pretty much renders it to roll somewhat decent. As you get even higher such as a CR 27 the lowest save is in the high 20's maybe even 30's as its lowest save.

How are newly epic characters supposed to combat such resistance without resorting to cheese or using no save spells such as evards black tentacles or magic missile.

2011-01-02, 02:36 AM
You may need to be prepared to use 1-2 rounds reducing their saves first with spells like limited wish or enervation.

At lv21, fort saves average +25, ref +20, will +21, so you ideally want a DC of +35, which isn't easy to obtain (since it assumes a +16 enhancement stat bonus from epic spellcasting). Unless you have an ability which triggers more often (like devastating critical), in which case you can afford a lower save DC, but in general, I agree that it becomes progressively harder to boost my DCs as I level. It probably won't be worth the effort later on either.

Damage spells still deal damage on a successful save, though you may want to default to no-save spells like orbs (since touch ACs remain crap for most part), or focus more on buff spells and leave the damage dealing to fighters. :smallsmile:

2011-01-02, 10:54 AM
Our group has had some recent experience in this regard. The saves of epic monsters are going to scale faster than you can pump your save DC's without resorting to cheese. Depending on what you're fighting, having access to Heighten Spell can come in useful if the monster has a low save which you can exploit. Still, as the poster above stated, at these levels, blasty spells become more viable, and buffing your allies goes a long way as well. Don't underestimate counterspelling either (prefarably using direct damage). Since you aren't likely to be taking out these enemies in one shot anymore, your party becomes vulnerable to some of the potent spellcasting abilities of the bad guys.

2011-01-02, 11:17 AM
by the time you reach epic though finding no-save stuff isn't hard. As a caster you've got the chance to pick and choose what you use, and the saves of humanoid opponents stay vaguely onpar with pre-epic for quite a while.

2011-01-02, 12:29 PM
Frankly, if you're still targeting DCs at that point, yes, you're screwed. I mean, you can become undead and start stacking Evolved Undead templates after 21st level in Sorcerer or whatever CHA based caster you want to keep your DCs at ridiculous levels, but at that point you're becoming borked as much as Epic Spellcasting anyway.

2011-01-02, 05:48 PM
It's a funny paradox, but I've found that, at least in my fairly large amount of epic level experience, dealing straight damage becomes a more reliable way to dispatch enemies. Saves and spell resistance can be so high...

2011-01-02, 08:49 PM
I was just thinking that most of the save/die or save/suck spells become mute as you gain in levels when the DC's are that high and how the heck are you supposed to use stuff like no save spells when there aren't alot to begin with.

The character I am going with is a eldritch disciple and using the buffs to make the eldritch glaive something to contend with by applying quicken SLA to it and using it and such. But when I decide to use the warlock powers such as chilling tentacles and stuff at that level it won't do a darn thing because of X and X and X.

I was wondering if there were any suggestions on how to overcome that daunting fact I posted as the OP.

2011-01-03, 12:02 AM
Well, the flip side of save-boosting would be safe-debuffing. A sorc could go arcane spellsurge, followed by quickened limited wish+heightened spell (effectively getting +7 to save dc).

A twinned, maximized enervation would inflict 8 negative lvs, which means -8 to all saves as well.

Some conditions, like sickened, also impose save penalties, if you can get them to affect the monster successfully.

2011-01-03, 01:12 AM
So the best way is debuffing which is understandable. How do you get those abilities to affect epic undead such as a demilich? It seems the only way to actually hit it is to quite literally hit it. There is almost no way to get negative levels to affect it or even get through its immunities.

I am planning on DM'ing an epic campaign and I am trying to solve these issues now so that way the players can have some reference ahead of time on how to handle the issues involving this.

They are 19/20 level now and almost done with the second book in this trilogy. When they start the third book (probably next weekend) the issues start to arise and I don't want my spellcasting players to get discouraged because the spells aren't hitting OR they just outright don't have any effect.

2011-01-03, 01:33 AM
Demilich is vulnerable to Orb of Force. It has no resistance/immunity to it, so shouldn't an orb of force or two take it completely to town?

Depending on how cheese-tacular you're getting with metamagic and such.

Also, it only has elemental resistances of 20 to acid, fire, sonic. Orbs of any of those should hit it pretty hard also!

2011-01-03, 02:19 AM
Plus, they have very little hp. Just get your fighter to whack away.

Though with the way its magic immunity is worded (it even blocks out Su abilities), it doesn't seem like unbeatable sr, but more like real blanket magic immunity, so one can argue that even orb spells would be out.

2011-01-03, 09:03 AM
From the SRD:

Spell Immunity

A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.

They don't have an explanation of magic immunity in this detail in the SRD. By my reading of the orb spells, and the templating of Spell Immunity, they would affect the demilich normally as there is nothing supernatural or spell-like about them after the spell that creates them is cast.

I would highly recommend you find out which side of this debate your DM comes down on before assuming it would work. The question sort of boils down to "Will orb spells work normally in an AMF?" There is a good discussion of this here:
if you/your DM think "yes" I suppose you'd have no problem with the orbs hitting the demilich. If you/your DM say "no", then you'll just have to load all of your metamagic cheese onto a "Shatter" spell :smallsmile: