Dwarves should have level adjustment.

[Darthteej]

I mean, seriously, this makes no gods danged sense that they squeak by with the same adjustment as the useless half-orcs. Let's make a list shall we, and while we're at it compare them to other races.

Hill dwarves get a bonus HP from their CON bonus every level, in exchange for a one-point penalty on skill checks, and the detriments to casting can be circumvented easily when they need access to 7th level spells.Their size means that, despite being 4 feet tall, they can grapple and trip just like the big boys(to say nothing of having a BONUS to Bull Rush/Awesome Blow and trip resistance), already they've got bonuses beyond their size, a major factor in the Goliath's LA. 20 feet base speed sounds bad until you see the armor clause, suddenly you can ditch that mithril for admantitine, or take a dip in barbarian if you're playing a light armor dwarf. The stonecutting gives them a limited version of the Rouges signature class ability, and the weapon proficiencies are fairly useful for those who like something other than 2-handers. Now we come to the saving throws, a 2+ bonus to spells is a 2+ bonus to the vast majority of when those dice need to be rolled, and is actually a BETTER bonus than even the Drow get, and the poison bonus is neat too. Let's give a nice power attack bonus vs golbins, and a very nice armor or shock trooper bonus against giants. Finally, top that off with skill bonuses. Oh and don't forget darkvision.

The problem with this is how many sheer bonuses are piled on. Elves supposedly follow a similar formula with a 2 for 2 balance, but their weapon proficiencies are martial rather than exotic, and their immunities are very specific, whereas dwarves get a generalized bonus.

The duergar is even worse. They get a high Charisma penalty and lose the dwarven familiarity, and also daylight sensitivity(which their spot bonus negates and the to hit minus is negligible.) In exchange, they pack on all these other bonuses plus 3 immunities, a move silently bonus, and two very powerful SLAs.

IMO, at the very least, the dwarf needs to be +1 and the duergar +2.

[Augmented Lurk]

Dwarves are fine, most of the other races just kind of suck.

[Callista]

Compared to the human's bonus feat and skill points, dwarves are actually relatively weak.

[Os1ris09]

see above for my response. Feat > special bonus when used correctly. :smallwink:

[AslanCross]

Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes.

Sometimes, I feel my players actually need this. They're really poor at searching for hidden doors. This also works best when you're actually underground, in worked hallways, which are where dwarves usually live. Situational.


Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.

The elves only get martial weapons. The dwarves get weak exotic weapons. An elf wizard can use a longsword. A dwarf wizard cannot use an urgrosh, because it's treated as a martial weapon.


Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).

Highly situational. Many monsters prefer to grapple instead (improved grab). Monsters that trip are very rare. There are more that bull rush, but those that do tend to be very large and as such cancel out this bonus easily.


+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.

Dwarves absolutely need this, or else they can't drink the way they do. :smallbiggrin:


+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

This is probably one of the better ones, and although a +2 save often doesn't make enough of a difference at higher levels, I'll grant that it's pretty good.



+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears).

Great at level 1. That's all.



+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).

Ok, this is pretty good, but unless your campaign is entirely against Giants, this is highly situational.



+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.

How often are these checks made? Highly situational.

Humans have far less trouble than most races getting into prestige classes, and some of these PrCs are what get things broken. A feat well-chosen at Lv 1 remains useful all throughout a PC's career, and so do well-invested skill points. The dwarf's bonuses all end up being less than stellar as you level up.

The dwarf is probably one of the better races in the PHB, but they hardly measure up to humans.

[Eldariel]

Compared to the human's bonus feat and skill points, dwarves are actually relatively weak.

Yeah, bonus feat is the single most powerful racial feature in the game. Mostly because the feat power level turned out to be so different from what they envisioned (WoTC considered feat equal to +2 to one save, +1 to hit or so; and yet printed Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Natural Spell, all the Craft-feats and so on). It appears it was not accounted for that feat chains mean getting more feats also means you're further into the chains earlier and thus gain the greater benefits of a feat late in the chain earlier.

Though most of this is because of how stingy the game is with feats; unless you have tons of class-based bonus feats and are working with an extremely restricted source list, you simply won't be able to do more than one thing well even by level 20, let alone levels 1-4 where most humans would fall. If there were more feats given to the players, the relative importance of the bonus feat would recede a bit and the racial balance would be a bit better. As it stands tho, racial choices are basically Human, Strongheart Halfling, Anything With +2 To Your Key Ability And Penalty To Dump Stat, and races that truly get a ridiculous amount of non-feat goodies; mostly Whisper Gnomes, Dwarves & company (oh, and non-standard types like Warforged, Neraphim and Elans but that's due to wackiness with types and Polymorph mostlY).

[Os1ris09]

Yeah, bonus feat is the single most powerful racial feature in the game. Mostly because the feat power level turned out to be so different from what they envisioned (WoTC considered feat equal to +2 to one save, +1 to hit or so; and yet printed Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Natural Spell, all the Craft-feats and so on). It appears it was not accounted for that feat chains mean getting more feats also means you're further into the chains earlier and thus gain the greater benefits of a feat late in the chain earlier.

Though most of this is because of how stingy the game is with feats; unless you have tons of class-based bonus feats and are working with an extremely restricted source list, you simply won't be able to do more than one thing well even by level 20, let alone levels 1-4 where most humans would fall. If there were more feats given to the players, the relative importance of the bonus feat would recede a bit and the racial balance would be a bit better. As it stands tho, racial choices are basically Human, Strongheart Halfling, Anything With +2 To Your Key Ability And Penalty To Dump Stat, and races that truly get a ridiculous amount of non-feat goodies; mostly Whisper Gnomes, Dwarves & company (oh, and non-standard types like Warforged, Neraphim and Elans but that's due to wackiness with types and Polymorph mostlY).

could not have said it any better.

[Ernir]

The problem is that half-orcs, which you use for comparison, is notoriously weak.

Dwarves are nice, I give you that. Up there with strongheart halflings, humans, lesser/savage progression Aasimar, dragonborn raptorans, etc., and the crazy stuff like anthropomorphic bats or net-LA-0 incarnate constructs? Nah.

To clarify, it is generally considered mechanically superior to have a single, big "thing" to specialize with, rather than a collection of minor bonuses. Dwarves just happen to have received enough minor stuff to make them worth playing. The half-elf, on the other hand...

Funny thing is that the half-orc looks like an attempt to give a single big thing. They just hilariously overvalued that +2 str. :smallsigh:

[Thames]

The problem is that a lot of races with LA do not deserve it or do not deserve it to the amount it is given and that most of the +0 LA races suck - the dwarf is ok and roughly the right power level for +0 LA - the slow movement can hurt though but that doesn't change the previous comments.

LA is a really horrible mashed on system that was very poorly done to allow for the use of other races that people liked the idea of but were more powerful but seldom are with a LA - class level beats almost all LA adjustments.

I much prefer Fantasy Craft system of Species Feats that allow you to improve your innate species abilities for the cost of a feat and at roughly the power of a feat thus leaving level inconsistencies out of it.

[Cerlis]

yes the issue is EVERY Bonus a Dwarf gets is situational. +4 against giants and +1 against goblins doesnt matter when your not fighting giants or goblins. Stonecunning doesntmatter if there are no secret doors or weird stone. Even for campaigns with those they usually arent to common. Exotic weapons dont matter if you cant or dont use em. +2 agasint spells and poisons is also oh so situational.


In other words the only bonuses a dwarf constantly gets is +1 HP per level.

Oh right and the size thing. Um How is a dwarf being a medium creature any extra power? Humans are medium sized and they dont have a + LA. The only difference is that they have a 1 or so foot height difference. They even weigh the same as humans. All they are, are a short Medium creature with -10 land speed who doesnt get penalties on speed based on weight, which every person with a bag of holding can do.

[woodenbandman]

{Scrubbed}

[Darthteej]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Actually........no. I'm being perfectly serious. Really though, what I'm really talking about is the idiosyncrasies in the LA system. If Hobgoblins are LA +1, then IMO dwarves should be too.

The fundamental problem with the system is that there's no internal tracking. What I'm saying here is that dwarves get many of the same bonuses that races with minor level adjustment do, yet get off scot free. OF COURSE humans are more powerful for the bonus feat, but if we want to apply logic, then it seems that dwarves should get saddled with +1 LA.

[olentu]

Actually........no. I'm being perfectly serious. Really though, what I'm really talking about is the idiosyncrasies in the LA system. If Hobgoblins are LA +1, then IMO dwarves should be too.

The fundamental problem with the system is that there's no internal tracking. What I'm saying here is that dwarves get many of the same bonuses that races with minor level adjustment do, yet get off scot free. OF COURSE humans are more powerful for the bonus feat, but if we want to apply logic, then it seems that dwarves should get saddled with +1 LA.

Personally I would go the other way e.g. if dwarfs are LA 0 then hobgoblins should be as well (well maybe not since I can not recall the hobgoblins stats but you get the idea).

[Eldariel]

Actually........no. I'm being perfectly serious. Really though, what I'm really talking about is the idiosyncrasies in the LA system. If Hobgoblins are LA +1, then IMO dwarves should be too.

The fundamental problem with the system is that there's no internal tracking. What I'm saying here is that dwarves get many of the same bonuses that races with minor level adjustment do, yet get off scot free. OF COURSE humans are more powerful for the bonus feat, but if we want to apply logic, then it seems that dwarves should get saddled with +1 LA.

Maybe we should consider this level the baselane and consider races under it (Half-Elf, Half-Orc, High Elf, perhaps Halfling) and races at LA +1 without meaningfully stronger abilities (Hobgoblin, Planetouched sans the Outsider-type, et cetera) underpowered?

I know for a fact that full-blooded Orcs have quite a few uses, while Half-Orcs are mediocre. They have more severe penalties but they have more powerful bonuses too; in other words, they have a role they excel at. Especially true for Water Orcs; very impressive physical bonuses but at the cost of mental penalties.

EDIT: Sorta swordsage'd.

[grimbold]

dwarves are very strong i agree
there was even a D20 source article on it. However i have always thought the designers saw this and tried to limit them a little.
Of all the tier one and two classes the average dwarf really only has access to one (the cleric) due to its culture and upbringing. Also dwarves tend towards being LG, limiting how they can use their awesome power.
So basically when the dwarf is well role-played according to his cultural beliefs he is not neccesarily OP.

[olentu]

dwarves are very strong i agree
there was even a D20 source article on it. However i have always thought the designers saw this and tried to limit them a little.
Of all the tier one and two classes the average dwarf really only has access to one (the cleric) due to its culture and upbringing. Also dwarves tend towards being LG, limiting how they can use their awesome power.
So basically when the dwarf is well role-played according to his cultural beliefs he is not neccesarily OP.

I do not find racial RP restrictions a very good idea. Aside from the fact that adventurers can easily come from the outliers of personality (perhaps what started them adventuring) the characterization of a race can and often does change from game to game. Not to mention that I would not automatically assume that wizards of the coast thought in terms of class power rankings similar to that particular list of tiers.

[hamishspence]

Of all the tier one and two classes the average dwarf really only has access to one (the cleric) due to its culture and upbringing. Also dwarves tend towards being LG, limiting how they can use their awesome power.

I think in 3.0 and onward, they backed away from "dwarves only like clerical magic, not arcane"- in the Forgotten Realms book, there is an evil dwarven wizard.
And dwarves born during the "Thunder Blessing" period tend to have a higher affinity for arcane magic.

Dwarven society may be biased toward Law and Good- but Abbathor is still a member of the dwarven pantheon despite being NE. So you could have an Abbathor-worshipping dwarven community that tends toward evil.

[umbrapolaris]

dwarves are fine to me, their bonus compensate against the fact that "they are dwarves" :smalltongue:

[Gnorman]

dwarves are fine to me, their bonus compensate against the fact that "they are dwarves" :smalltongue:

You mean their bonus compliments the fact that "they are dwarves".

[The Big Dice]

You mean their bonus compliments the fact that "they are dwarves".

He had it right. The bonuses compensate for them being Dwarfs.

[umbrapolaris]

You mean their bonus compliments the fact that "they are dwarves".

no, no , "compensate" it is a tragedy to play a dwarf,

1-the size: who like to have their size, you imagine when they go to the toilet they must be careful to no fall in the hole ! and when the party needs to peek above a barrier, the dwarf utility is resumed to be a chair.
2- the beard: who like to have a permanent napkin and food store.
3- and i dont mention the dwarf-throwing and their utility in a garden.

:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Aren't dwarves the same width as humans- just a little shorter in the legs and body?

Depending on the setting, they may be even broader and more solidly built than humans- despite being a little shorter.

[Lord Loss]

The Tragedy of the Dwarf:

Nuff Said. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKrei80jBg8)

[KillianHawkeye]

If Hobgoblins are LA +1, then IMO dwarves should be too.

Actually, I think most people agree that Hobgoblins don't deserve that LA +1. They aren't much better than Orcs.

[grimbold]

The Tragedy of the Dwarf:

Nuff Said. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKrei80jBg8)

that is my 2nd favorite scene featuring gimli
this one is slightly better (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZLnDaqo1M) i think

[LOTRfan]

"He was twitching, because he's got my axe embedded in his nervous system!" :smallfurious:

Best line in the movie. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Of all the tier one and two classes the average dwarf really only has access to one (the cleric) due to its culture and upbringing.There are plenty of dwarf wizards in the source material (both game books and novels). There's at least one dwarf druid (granted, it's Salvatore's).

And finally, are you really suggesting dwarf culture and upbringing would discourage them from being artificers? :smallamused:

[Chilingsworth]

Duergar do have a level adjustment! As for the +4 AC bonus, there's either a feat or a PrC that allows you to apply it to anything larger than yourself. I think it's in Races of Stone.

[Heliomance]

The stonecutting gives them a limited version of the Rouges signature class ability

Dwarves get a limited version of Sneak Attack?

Trapfinding is not the signature Rogue ability. Sneak Attack is.

[gbprime]

Actually, the big issue with dwarves IMO is their favored class. Fighter? That's pretty concept-limiting, especially post Tome-of-Battle.

For example, to do a dedicated Dwarven caster (Cleric 1 / Wizard 4 / Runesmith 5 / Dweomerkeeper 10... full wizard casting in armor), I had to spend my 1st level feat on Arcane Schooling. That puts the character down TWO feats as compared to a human.

[Callista]

Ehh... most DMs have dumped favored classes and multiclassing penalties anyway. I mean, humans are good enough without getting a bonus there too, y'know?

[JaronK]

The fact is, Dwarves are above average for LA0 races, but nowhere near the best. Humans get a bonus feat, which is very powerful for the most powerful classes: the casters. That's huge.

Gnomes get access to the Shadowcraft Mage PrC, and Whispergnomes get both that and martial access to the Gnomish Quickrazor via Complete Warrior, plus they have a great statline and awesome stealther bonuses.

There's a halfling variant that gets a bonus feat and is thus awesome (though it's setting specific).

Kobolds... well, let's just say they take the cake and run away with it (and trap it) if they have enough books to work with.

Plus, a Dragonborn Water Orc has +4 to Str and Con with -2 to all other stats, and has some really useful abilities as well (like, eventually, Blindsight).

Dwarves just have a decent stat set, a bunch of situational bonuses, and one awesome dwarf only PrC (the Runesmith, though there's also a few just decent PrCs that require being a dwarf). That's solid, but not amazing. Unless you're required to be a Dwarf due to PrC requirements, it's very rare indeed that another race wouldn't be better (mechanically) in a given build. Clearly, then, they're not overpowered.

Compare them to some of the actually decent LA+1 templates and you'll really see it. The Dark template gives amazing stealth bonuses. Draconic gives solid stat bonuses. Feral and Half Minotaur blow everything else out of the water, though admittedly many feel those are too strong. Lolth Touched gives +6 Str and Con (but you have to be evil). There are other weaker +1 LA types, but since no one wants to play them, they're not really worth balancing off of.

JaronK

[hamishspence]

Compare them to some of the actually decent LA+1 templates and you'll really see it. The Dark template gives amazing stealth bonuses. Draconic gives solid stat bonuses. Feral and Half Minotaur blow everything else out of the water, though admittedly many feel those are too strong. Lolth Touched gives +6 Str and Con (but you have to be evil). There are other weaker +1 LA types, but since no one wants to play them, they're not really worth balancing off of.

Mineral Warrior from Underdark is probably one of the good LA+1 templates.
Also Shadow Walker from Unapproachable East.
Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave modifies Dark Template- making its Hide In Plain Sight ability Supernatural rather than Extraordinary- and allowing it to be used even without cover or concealment.

[herrhauptmann]

Isn't mineral warrior a template you can just buy, and have it become permanent. Unlike that collar of umbral something, which gives you the dark template, but can be removed.

[Tyndmyr]

I mean, seriously, this makes no gods danged sense that they squeak by with the same adjustment as the useless half-orcs. Let's make a list shall we, and while we're at it compare them to other races.

Hill dwarves get a bonus HP from their CON bonus every level, in exchange for a one-point penalty on skill checks, and the detriments to casting can be circumvented easily when they need access to 7th level spells.Their size means that, despite being 4 feet tall, they can grapple and trip just like the big boys(to say nothing of having a BONUS to Bull Rush/Awesome Blow and trip resistance), already they've got bonuses beyond their size, a major factor in the Goliath's LA. 20 feet base speed sounds bad until you see the armor clause, suddenly you can ditch that mithril for admantitine, or take a dip in barbarian if you're playing a light armor dwarf. The stonecutting gives them a limited version of the Rouges signature class ability, and the weapon proficiencies are fairly useful for those who like something other than 2-handers. Now we come to the saving throws, a 2+ bonus to spells is a 2+ bonus to the vast majority of when those dice need to be rolled, and is actually a BETTER bonus than even the Drow get, and the poison bonus is neat too. Let's give a nice power attack bonus vs golbins, and a very nice armor or shock trooper bonus against giants. Finally, top that off with skill bonuses. Oh and don't forget darkvision.

The problem with this is how many sheer bonuses are piled on. Elves supposedly follow a similar formula with a 2 for 2 balance, but their weapon proficiencies are martial rather than exotic, and their immunities are very specific, whereas dwarves get a generalized bonus.

The duergar is even worse. They get a high Charisma penalty and lose the dwarven familiarity, and also daylight sensitivity(which their spot bonus negates and the to hit minus is negligible.) In exchange, they pack on all these other bonuses plus 3 immunities, a move silently bonus, and two very powerful SLAs.

IMO, at the very least, the dwarf needs to be +1 and the duergar +2.

Not really. The dwarf is not that fantastic. The bonuses are numerous, but situational, and not to very useful things.

Human is a lot more fantastic.

[MammonAzrael]

I'm going to join with the other voices here saying that Dwarves are not strong. Other races are just generally weak.

I much prefer the increased strength and influence that d20r races (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20_Rebirth#Races) possess. And as a bonus, they are all much more balanced with one another.

[AtomicKitKat]

I could've sworn I started almost exactly this same thread 5 years ago. Complete with the argument about Hobgoblins, and someone saying signature ability, and "Dwarves get a limited version of Sneak Attack?":smallconfused:

[Marnath]

no, no , "compensate" it is a tragedy to play a dwarf,

1-the size: who like to have their size, you imagine when they go to the toilet they must be careful to no fall in the hole ! and when the party needs to peek above a barrier, the dwarf utility is resumed to be a chair.


Ok, seriously. When people say things like that it bothers me. Lock a tape-measure somewhere between 4 and 4.5 feet and then stand it on end vertically beside you. Unless you're above average height it'll come out about heart high. Also consider that this individual is nearly as wide as he is tall and usually quite brawny and you'll get some sense of the proper scale for a dwarf. They're not that much smaller than most humans.

[JaronK]

LA 0 races that are stronger than Dwarves:

Human: The bonus feat is clearly better the vast majority of the time.

Strongheart Halfling: See human, plus they get other nice abilities.

Dragonborn Water Orc: +4 Str and Con, -2 all other stats, can swim, and get a few other nice abilities. Also, access to the Headlong Rush feat.

Regular Orc: As above, but the stats aren't quite as good and no water thingy.

Whispergnome: Stealth is great, Shadowcraft Mage access, Gnomish Quickrazor is actually a strong weapon.

And that's just off the top of my head. However, some people missed the really big bonuses about Dwarves... they can get into the awesome Runesmith PrC, and Complete Warrior lets them get actually useful Exotic Weapons with their racial ability... the Dwarven War Pike is pretty darn decent.

JaronK

[Firechanter]

Kinda depends on the setting. In a Middle Earth(-like) core-only game, Dwarves are indeed very powerful, since they get some bonus or other to most enemies you encounter.
On a Middle Earth NWN server I sometimes play on, a Dwarf Fighter would actually be worth about LA+2 -- they get all the bonuses but not the speed penalty. I've figured this out just by seeing what kind of areas you can raid at what levels with what character. Since NWN does not feature LA, you are really getting a good deal.

In a regular D&D game, however, they are just good. Not weak, not overpowered, just quite good, certainly not better than humans, and no reason to shove an LA down their throats.

[Haarkla]

Human is a lot more fantastic.
Nope. +2 Con and Darkvision > An extra feat and skill points.

[JaronK]

Nope. +2 Con and Darkvision > An extra feat and skill points.

What's better... Shock Trooper or 6hp, +1 Fort Saves, and 60' vision? One lets you slaughter everything in one hit. The other... isn't much.

JaronK

[LordBlades]

IMHO, Dwarf is one of the best LA0 races, but they're by no means far away from other LA0 races.

As others have said, biggest thing a dwarf has going on for them are +2 Con at no significant penalty (Cha is a dump stat for most non-Cha focused builds) and +2 saves vs. spells (or +3 if you go Deep Dwarf). All the other abilities are pretty situational.

Compare that with stuff like:

-Humans and Strongheart Halflings that get a bonus feat (which chosen carefully is worth more that the whole dwarf race, see JaronK's previous post)
-Warforged that get a whole load of construct immunities
-Neraphs that get outsider type for free martial weapon prof and a whole new level of Alter Self/Polymorph cheese
-Water Orcs for their awesome physical stats bonuses


IMHO the dwarves are an awesome 'jack of all trades race' build-wise. As long as you're not building a Cha-focused char, you can't go wrong with dwarf(decent bonuses, no drawbacks). However, they rarely shine in this field. Can't say I've ever encountered a nice build that was significantly better as a dwarf than as any other decent race.

[Firechanter]

@Haarkla:
I guess that's your personal taste then. Objectively, Darkvision is a level 2 spell, whereas reaping the benefit of feat chains three levels early cannot as easily be duplicated.
Where Dwarves get +2 CON, Humans kinda get +2 INT (most classes can't tell the difference).

[Elric VIII]

Nope. +2 Con and Darkvision > An extra feat and skill points.

This assessment reminds me of the Trollblooded feat (req Toughness and gives Regen 1). It seems like it's worth a feat at low levels, but by mid-high levels it's completely overshadowed.

Darkvision costs 10000gp for a continuous item, +2 Con costs 4000gp. 14000gp << your 12, 15, or 18th level feat. It's about on par with a feat you'd take at 9th level (in my opinion). But, consider lesser MM Rod of Quicken vs. Quicken Spell for your 1st level spells, that's more than 14k.

Plus, Dwarves have the alignment restriction of Chaotic Drunk.

[Haarkla]

What's better... Shock Trooper or 6hp, +1 Fort Saves, and 60' vision? One lets you slaughter everything in one hit. The other... isn't much.

JaronK
The Dwarf can still take Shock Trooper.

I am not saying that human is not better for certain builds, but overall I would rate the Dwarf.

[Cartigan]

Gnomes get access to the Shadowcraft Mage PrC
That's dumb. Being able to access a PrC is irrelevant to the power of the race.


Whispergnomes get both that and martial access to the Gnomish Quickrazor via Complete Warrior, plus they have a great statline and awesome stealther bonuses.
Whispergnomes should have definitively been a +1 LA race.

[Veyr]

Dwarves just have [...] one awesome dwarf only PrC (the Runesmith
Dwarves [...] can get into the awesome Runesmith PrC
Ironsoul Forgemaster!


That's dumb. Being able to access a PrC is irrelevant to the power of the race.
Why? Only Gnomes can enter, and it's one of the strongest PrCs in 3.5. Seems quite reasonable to consider this while evaluating the race.

[LordBlades]

That's dumb. Being able to access a PrC is irrelevant to the power of the race.

When it's a 'Race X only' PrC, then I think it's relevant.



Whispergnomes should have definitively been a +1 LA race.

Doubt it. They're better than gnomes, true, but don;t think they're good enough to warrant +1.

[true_shinken]

@Haarkla:
I guess that's your personal taste then. Objectively, Darkvision is a level 2 spell, whereas reaping the benefit of feat chains three levels early cannot as easily be duplicated.
Except for a level 2 spell. :smallamused:

[Firechanter]

Come again?

[true_shinken]

Come again?

Heroics is a level 2 spell that grants you a Fighter bonus feat for it's duration.

[No brains]

The reason Dwarves have so many racial powers is... well... because they are dwarves.

Think about it, you're new to D&D. You want to play and you scan over the races provided. You can be a person, like you already are (BORING), but you get a flexible bonus, that's pretty sweet.

Then there are Elves/Half Elves who are cool because they are cultured and pretty, or kid-like races that are good at being tricky. The half-orc's penalties actually work for it because you get an excuse to act like a raging clod!

Then you get the Dwarf. The player thinks, "I can play an ugly midget? No thanks." This is where the array of bonuses become important. If Dwarves weren't so powerful, who would want to play them? Being a Dwarf really isn't as interesting as being any of the other races without having that seeming step ahead of them. If a Dwarf were really equals with the other races, they might get picked less because their flavor can't keep up with their power.

Also, this is a tool to spot power gamers early on. Trick the power-hungry into playing as angry short guys so you can tell clearly who's playing more by numbers than by RP.

tl;dr: The answer is noobs.... I think...

[Cartigan]

When it's a 'Race X only' PrC, then I think it's relevant.
Being race X only is a limiter on the PrC, not an empowerer to the race.


Doubt it. They're better than gnomes, true, but don;t think they're good enough to warrant +1.
They get the Gnome bonuses, plus some Halfling bonuses plus a good SLA.
They are 1.75 races!

[Firechanter]

I don't know if that holds true for a significant portion of players. But one of my fellow players is absolutely no "numbers guy", he usually just picks whatever sounds cool to him. And well, he thinks Dwarves are cool, and plays them whenever they are available. He's also the type of player who'd take Combat Reflexes with Dex 13 and no Reach weapon, just because the name of the feat sounds awesome, if you catch my drift.

[VirOath]

Dwarves are a nice race, but I can't comprehend how people are thinking the race is super strong, or even stronger than humans.

First off, Darkvision. Yes it is a second level spell, a really sad second level spell that doesn't compare to the usefulness of any good spell in that category. Actually, it fails compared to Detect Evil/Magic. It lets you see, in the dark for a certain distance.

Now, can you tell me a time that this is going to be useful, in a party that doesn't already have darkvision? Can you tell me the Wizard that is going to use this over a torch or hooded lamp? Does that mean that Bullseye Lamps are over powered because they can give the same effect of Darvision the spell, being able to see 60 feet in perfect darkness?

Now light being a beacon? Not really an issue, as anything that would attack you underground already has Darkvision, Blindsight, or Tremorsense.

So a Dwarven Racial is comparable to to a 2nd level spell that isn't comparable to a 1st level spell, or a cantrip. Seeing how Gnomes get spell like abilities as well as a positive stat adjustment, I don't see this comparing.

Second point, +2 Con. Oh ho-ray, more hitpoints! But you forget that it comes at the cost of -2 Cha, so the stat adjustments are even. Don't be a fool and overvalue physical stat adjustments over mental ones, because that is what happened with the Half Orc.

Also, Dwarves are a medium creature that moves at 20 ft. Yeah, they don't get hampered by armor or otherwise face movement reductions, a Dwarf in heavy armor moves as fast as a human, but having a base speed of 20 ft is a hit to the race still.

And finally, compare to Humans. They have no stat adjustments at all, yet their +1 skill point a level acts as an effective +2 int in most cases. A feat that early might not be useful late game, but it often serves as a means to get started on feat chains or biting down a feat tax for a PrC without hurting as much.

[Firechanter]

re Heroics: indeedy, I had to check to see it is 10min/level, for some reason I thought it was 1min/level, in which case I would have said that it's too short term to serve as actual replacement. That way, well, it's a substitute. On the other hand, you can also cast Heroics on a human and give him _yet_ another feat. Whereas casting Darkvision on a Dwarf does nothing.

That said, I wouldn't discount Darkvision so thoroughly. Torches suck because they don't illuminate so very well: 20ft bright, 20ft dim, none beyond - that's simply not as good as 60' "bright". Lanterns are better but they still have to be held, so your wizard can't wield a staff or crossbow.
Daylight is a level 3 spell, or level 4 Extended (20 mins/lvl), but has the advantage that it helps the entire party.
Then again, so does Mass Darkvision, which is level 4, works on the entire party and lasts 1 hour/level. And it doesn't give away your position, so it's clearly superior to Daylight. If you have one or more Dwarves in the party, it's a question of logistics whether individual DVs or a Mass one are more clever.

Yes, underground dwellers may notice you whether you have a light source or not. But there are plenty of other scenarios, such as infiltrating a _human_ stronghold, where light would be a homing beacon whereas DV gives you an edge.

[Volthawk]

Well, it's pretty easy to get Darkvision, anyway. Apart from the spell, there's potions, scrolls, or a hell of a lot of magic items. As well as one that makes you invisible to darkvision.

[VirOath]

First off, it doesn't keep a hand locked out. You can hold a lamp and wield a two handed weapon like a greatsword, staff or crossbow without a problem. When combat starts it can be set down without an issue so you can actually use the weapon properly.

Two handed weapons only ever need two hands at the instant that they are directly used, attacking in the case of melee weapons and reloading and firing in the case of crossbows.

Second, if you are infiltrating a human stronghold at night, you aren't needing Darkvision. Ignoring the problems of taking a Sneak approach when the entire party isn't suited for sneaking, Darkvision is still the worst spell you could use. Since humans aren't running around with Darkvision, a good portion of the keep would be kept at atleast shadowy illumination so seeing things isn't an issue. Invisibility is a much better spell at this point, even with the 1 minute/level duration.

Because having plenty of dark areas for a race that can't see in the dark on their own is just about the most retarded security loophole that could have been left in. Oil is cheap and burns for hours.

Daylight and Mass Darkvision are even worse spells by comparison. At that level, the entire point of Dwarves becomes non-issue if it ever was one.

[Elric VIII]

Don't most magic items also emit light like a torch?

[VirOath]

Depends on the method of magic used for the style of fantasy. Every magic item could glitter if the DM thought to run it that way.

But most that emit light like a torch, and not designed to be a replacement for one, are like the Flaming Weapon enchant, they tend to be mentioned in their entries.

But no, a +1 sword doesn't emit light like a torch, or doesn't have to, by RAW. And that would be kinda bad, if every magic item was a torch, would make shadow armor useless.

[Amiria]

30% of all magic weapons emit light as a torch.

Light generation, DMG p. 221, right column at the very bottom.

Also, DMG contradicts itself a bit. On p. 216, left column under 3. it says it is only 20% of all melee weapons.

[VirOath]

Also says that certain weapons always shed light, or never shed light, as per their description.

And elsewhere there is talk in the DMG of picking between Magic is Obvious, or Magic is Mysterious, one subset turns everything into clear and obvious means, magic weapons shedding light, shadow armor making physical and tangible shadows as the armor, always a visual cue that an object is magical.

Magic is Mysterious sits as every magical item looks the same as a mundane item and must be identified. That rough wooded stick the fighter uses as a back scratcher could really be a Rod Of The Magi.

Both overrule the stated rule, so once again it depends on setting. But I can see guards trying for weapons that shed light as a torch, and the same with most adventuring parties. And, if that isn't allowed by the DM, a single casting of Everburning Torch normally does the trick.

[Warlawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI
Questionable language for some situations (Ass, penis, hell... nothing bad, just fair warning for those in a workplace)
Dwarves vs elves

Mechanically, dwarves are rock solid (pun fully intended). They lack some of the advantages that top notch races get (Feats, casting stat) but they also really have little drawback for any build that is going to dump cha. They get a lot of neat little advantages that come up regularly, but don't have anything exceptionally powerful. They're a good choice for a lot of things, but rarely the top choice for anything.

Fluff has nothing to do with this discussion, but for what it's worth I like the dwarven fluff a lot. I miss the good old days of dwarven battleragers and vindicators (multiclass fighter/cleric berserkers). For some reason that just tickles my fancy I love the idea of each dwarven community having a Department of Hearth and Warfare. I think it's probably tied to the old 2E complete book of dwarves having the kit/class or whatever for the dwarven ladies who stayed at home, it was a fighter kit called the Dwarven Hearth Guard or something like that, I'd go grab my book off the shelf but the wife is in there napping, so maybe later.

[Enterti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI
Questionable language for some situations (Ass, penis, hell... nothing bad, just fair warning for those in a workplace)
Dwarves vs elves


This is the definitive answer to the age old debate of elves vs dwarves.

However the debate of dwarves vs everything else is much less clear cut, +2 con is one of the best adjustments on the base phb races. However as has been stated numerous times on this thread feats are always better

[Warlawk]

This is the definitive answer to the age old debate of elves vs dwarves.

However the debate of dwarves vs everything else is much less clear cut, +2 con is one of the best adjustments on the base phb races. However as has been stated numerous times on this thread feats are always better

I don't dispute that looking strictly at the PHB races, dwarves are excellent. However, I don't think we can argue that there has not been power creep since the PHB. Strongheart halflings, whisper gnomes, etc etc. In the larger picture, dwarves are still a decent choice for a lot of things, however almost any of those things have another specialty race that could fill the role better.

If you're only playing with the PHB dwarves are certainly one of the top 2 races, but with all the material out there, they get a bit overshadowered. I mean, it's not like they have the racial ability to cause cancer or anything.

[Enterti]

If you're only playing with the PHB dwarves are certainly one of the top 2 races, but with all the material out there, they get a bit overshadowered. I mean, it's not like they have the racial ability to cause cancer or anything.

True, Elves do have them beat there at least

[Psyren]

I mean, seriously, this makes no gods danged sense that they squeak by with the same adjustment as the useless half-orcs.

Dwarves are not overpowered - half-orcs just suck.

Even the Giant agrees. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)

[Cadian 9th]

Agreeing with the above posters, Dwarves are not an overpowered race.

Well, apart from lesser Mauleth, In my opinion. Still. From an optimizers viewpoint, I want as many stat mods and abilities as possible, or, stated otherwise, more options.

For example, Water Orc gets +4 strength, which you can use to good effect, and +2 con. Mongrelfolk get +4 Con, the list goes on. Mainly, you want options so that you can optimize a specific part. Yes, Water orc gets -2 all mental, but the bonus is far worth it.

Now, Dwarves get +2 con. Yes, it's handy. But it's not going to be a crux of your build. Other races get you better con boosts, and those races don't lose nearly as much from Dragonborn. Dwarves also get a variety of situational bonuses, which are okay, but by far are nowhere near the special abilities of other races, such as Elan, Human, Strongheart Halfling, Warforged, Lesser Planetouched, and more.

Gnomes got brought up: Gnomes are so much better than dwarves, sorry. Small size is useful to anyone, yes, -4 to grapple etc, but hey. More importantly, Illusion affinity, and the prestige classes and feats far outstrip the Dwarf's. Additionally, Gnome Subraces rock, even excluding whisper gnome, e.g. Tinker Gnome, lesser Deep Gnome, the full crew.

If anything, I'd give Dwarves a slight leg up in terms of power, such as giving them better racial sub levels, and a +2 fortitude or something. Perhaps a limited form of tremorsense, etc. Since Elves have secret door detection, which works everywhere (Including trapdoors :smallwink:) and we all know elves are suboptimal at best.