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Half-orc Bard
2011-01-02, 05:27 AM
I'm Dming a group of people. The entire adventure is going to be in one city. Later on I want to have an army of orcs try to invade the city, but I'm faced with the challenge of how do I keep track of like 200 orcs and 200 humans. I'm thinking of makeing groups of orcs and humans count as one monster with one HP pool, but that sounds a little lame.

woodenbandman
2011-01-02, 05:37 AM
you call 200 on a side a war?

Yora
2011-01-02, 05:39 AM
Later on I want to have an army of orcs try to invade the city, but I'm faced with the challenge of how do I keep track of like 200 orcs and 200 humans.
You don't. For one thing, it's obviously not practical. But also, the players won't see much of it anyway. Unless they stand on the top of a tower and watch the battle below, they will only see the handfull of orcs standing next to them. Everything that does not take place in the presence of the characters and involves them making rolls (or having the option to intervene and make rolls), does not have to follow the rules for standard combat.
Randomnes makes the game interesting, but there's not much of a point to it when the players have no way to influence the outcome. If for example the characters are defending a front gate and a group of human guards defends the side entrance against orcs, there's no reason at all to make rolls for the second fight. Just pick a number of rounds until the orcs break through. If you roll for it or not, all the players will ever know is a guard running to them screaming the side entrance has been breached. So if you make rolls or not, the players won't ever know the difference. And don't keep yourself busy with rolls that don't matter.

Half-orc Bard
2011-01-02, 05:44 AM
you call 200 on a side a war?
Fine 200,000

Psyx
2011-01-02, 07:19 AM
Roll 200,000 attacks each round.

Do you really want the outcome of a war decided on a few dice rolls? Authors don't flip coins when it comes to determining who wins conflicts in novels, and nor should you. It should be decided by the players actions and narrative requirements.

grimbold
2011-01-02, 08:28 AM
you can have the players not neccesarily see or know what is going on but they can be affected by it.
basically plan out the battle in advance and then allow the players to interact with it. So if you plan for the gate to be breached then maybe some orcs will ambush the players after the gate is breached.

Yora
2011-01-02, 08:31 AM
narrative requirements.
I wanted to give an extensive explaination, but thought it would be too much work to explain it in detail.
You managed to sum it up in one simple term. :smallbiggrin:

Mr White
2011-01-02, 08:32 AM
Work with units, platoons regiments, ...
Determine the strength of your average grunt, determine the number of a unit/platoon/regiment and you have the damage output of 1 force in a certain place. If a unit/platoon/... (you get the picture) takes damage the number of the grunts in that group dies which means they have a smaller damage output.

In short a unit/platoon/horde/... can be seen as a single monster but with a damage output relative to its number.

hamishspence
2011-01-02, 08:34 AM
Heroes of Battle has a few guidelines- flowcharts for events during a battle- suggestions as to what effects the player's actions should have for the next mission they are given, and so on.

While PCs work better as "strike teams" taking out particular targets- in some games, you could have them as unit commanders. A bard, cleric, marshal, White Raven Warblade, and so on, can boost the power of their unit considerably.

BG
2011-01-02, 10:02 AM
Also, the Clone Wars Campaign guide from the Star Wars Saga system has some really good ideas for large-scale battle. You basically either apply the "squad" or "regiment" template to a unit to get a bunch of them together.

Crow
2011-01-02, 10:33 AM
Determine how the battle would commence if the PC's were not there, and let it unfold before them. If they sit back and let it happen, it happens. If they get involved, react accordingly.

Gamerlord
2011-01-02, 11:46 AM
I will second what people said about you choosing what happens. If you really want randomness in the other fights, maybe use something like this:

A group of orcs dig under the walls and attack from below, roll a 1d20:
1-10:The orcs are held at bay, if this happens twice in a row the orc diggers are defeated.
11-20: The defenders start to lose ground against the orcs, if this happens three times in a row the defenders lose the section of the city where the orcs emerged to the orcs.

valadil
2011-01-02, 11:52 AM
Let the PCs choose where they want to be. Run that snapshot of the war in full. Make up the rest. Try to make up the rest based on what the PCs accomplish in their section.

Traab
2011-01-02, 12:23 PM
There are a couple ways you can do it, depending on how you want it to run. You can either run it as an overall huge battle, or a part of the storyline. If its just a huge battle, then you can setup things in advance, such as, "If no heroes are at the rear gate, the orc army will break through in 6 rounds and start charging for the other defensive positions from the inside." Do that with each seperate force, and you can create a scenario where the heroes have to move fast and hard if they want to keep the city from falling, and them from being overwhelmed by 75 still living orcs coming from all sides at the now tired and weakened heroes. It would take some time to setup a reasonable list of how many units would be alive at each given moment at each location, so if say, at round 4 the heros get to the rear gates and reinforce the defenders, they have say, 20 low level fighters still alive to help ward off the orcish horde.

If its part of the storyline, meaning you intend them to survive and keep going past it, then you will have to script out the entire thing, where either side wins or loses, and the heroes only choice is which route they have to escape from or triumph from. As an example, you have already decided the city will fall, (though you dont tell the party this) and you have them choose which area they want to defend. They fight their battle, and clear out the enemy there, but meanwhile the rest of the city is falling. They look up and realize the army has lost and they need to escape. Where they can go, the safety of their escape, and what happens next would be controlled by where they managed to be when they had to run. Say, front gate, rear gate, east wall, etc. This controlls the direction they can flee in, any named bad guys they might have killed, for example, if they took down a general, the army would be in more disarray and be easier to escape from unhindered.

TheWhisper
2011-01-02, 12:50 PM
In general, don't use game mechanics for anything the PCs do not take part in. The outcome of the battle is certainly relevant to their lives, but it is not their job to receive reports and send out orders.

If the plot calls for the battle to be lost, or won, then it is.

If the plot calls for the PCs to be pivotal as elite forces in the battle, give them one or more pivot encounters to fight, and determine the outcome based on their performance.

If the PCs are generals, then you might consider playing the battle out. But use a tabletop fantasy wargame, with rules designed for this sort of thing.

nyjastul69
2011-01-02, 12:58 PM
There are some books that cover mass combat. WotC's Miniatures Handbook and Malhavoc Press' Cry Havoc contain rules for mass combat.

Johel
2011-01-02, 01:21 PM
Heroes of Battle has a few guidelines- flowcharts for events during a battle- suggestions as to what effects the player's actions should have for the next mission they are given, and so on.

While PCs work better as "strike teams" taking out particular targets- in some games, you could have them as unit commanders. A bard, cleric, marshal, White Raven Warblade, and so on, can boost the power of their unit considerably.

This.

If you really want to let players affect whole battles with several regiments battling one anothers, that will really depends on the level of their characters.
High-level characters can be armies on their own rights, especially spellcasters.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-02, 01:42 PM
Or have the PCs defend a certain set of positions; they get flanked by the enemy each time but if they hold the position against the initial attack they get a Battle Point. If they get 5 battle points the enemy loses, if they get less then 5 the enemy wins. Once they have 4 battle points the enemy attempts to break them with elite/unique units.

hamishspence
2011-01-02, 01:56 PM
You could pinch ideas from existing wargames- run the PC's fight as a small-scale battle, follow it up with other battles, depending on how successful or not they are.

"Hold At All Costs" might be the scenario where you have to survive for so many rounds before falling back- to ensure that, say, civilians can be evacuated while you're fighting.

"Assassination" might be where a stealth-equipped party have to get through enemy defences, to take out the commander.

And so on.

AslanCross
2011-01-02, 06:45 PM
Heroes of Battle has a few guidelines- flowcharts for events during a battle- suggestions as to what effects the player's actions should have for the next mission they are given, and so on.

While PCs work better as "strike teams" taking out particular targets- in some games, you could have them as unit commanders. A bard, cleric, marshal, White Raven Warblade, and so on, can boost the power of their unit considerably.

Agreed. Having the players engage in small but vital operations is more interesting and exciting for everyone than rolling 200,000 attacks that have a +2 attack bonus and deal 1d6+1 damage.

Heroes of Battle uses a victory points system, wherein the success or failure of the PCs will affect the overall turn of the war.

It also has rules for arrow volleys, aerial bombardments, and siege engines.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-01-02, 08:06 PM
Assuming you're looking to make this a scenario where the player's affect the battle, use Heroes of Battle's Victory point system.

If not, use the PHB 2's affiliation system, determine what kind of affiliation each makes up (government most likely for the city, tribe most likely for the orcs) and then look at the War ability of affiliations, make opposed violence rolls, and see who comes out on top.

But most of all, describe what happening.

Marxism
2011-01-02, 09:21 PM
Its been mentioned before but 200 vs 200 is not a war. its more of a skirmish and an even one at that the PCs could just sit on their bums while the defenders kill the orcs. The thing almost all good fantasy wars have in common is that the good guys are outnumbered or out teched and there is a set of heroes that through winning small battles win the war. That's what the PCs are heroes! have them do something like take out the spellcaster lobbing fireballs at defenders have them be important in ways that are necessary. for example hold a breach against a deathknight while the hobgoblin army prepares to pour through. That kind of thing yeah its been said before but for making the PCs feel useful make the odds something like 1000 to 100 against them then they will feel needed.

Gullintanni
2011-01-02, 11:35 PM
When I DM a war, there are really two methods I use.

If the PC's are not involved, then run it as narrative. Whatever best suits the story you're telling, should be the outcome. Or flip a coin. Really only one side can win. If the PC's aren't involved, then it doesn't matter how said end comes to be accomplished.

If the PCs ARE involved then what I try to do is set checkpoints and major battles, and then apply tactical modifiers. For example, battle 1 occurs in the field, 150 human pikemen on a hill vs. 300 orc cavalry. Roll D20 to determine a winner. Modifiers as follows:

Pikemen get +2 for having anti-cavalry weapons.
Pikemen get +2 for holding the high-ground.
Orcs get +5 for outnumbering the humans 2-1.

The humans are still at a minor disadvantage. The PC's can offset that by completing a relevant objective, for example, the night before the battle, they infilitrate the orc camp and poison the feed for the horses. If the PC's are successful, the orcs ride in at half strength.

The second encounter, if the orcs are victorious, would have any surviving orcs attempt to penetrate the wall. Provide modifiers as necessary.

This sort of gameplay allows PC action to remain relevant without having to put them in a war and roll for literally hundreds of combat rounds. It also feels much less arbitrary. It also supports tactical gameplay and creativity. Not all PC's will infiltrate the orc camp to posion the horses. Some will opt to use their spells to carve out entrenched positions for the infantry, providing different modifiers to combat. It's a bit more flexible if you want to feel like the PC's are making a difference behind the scenes.

saskganesh
2011-01-05, 04:06 PM
I've adapted "War Machine" from the old D&D Companion for various battles and military campaigns with great success. it's found in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.

nice write up here:
http://greywulf.net/2009/01/rpg-week-dd-rules-cyclopedia-day-five/

It's a very flexible yet crunchy sub-system, d100 based, adaptable to almost any FRPG. My homebrew version adapted stuff from Bushido, Pendragon, SPI's Medieval Battles Quad, and Wargames Research Group.

if you have any grognard tendencies, check it out.