We can’t kill him, We don’t know where he’s keeping our tent

[Reize]

I’m currently running a short E6 campaign with friends. We’re all new to DMing so we plan to alternate after each campaign. The next person planning to DM (currently playing in my campaign) mentioned that he wanted his players to hunger for wealth by constantly keeping it out of reach. This will become relevant in a moment.

I have so far kept my players up to speed in terms of WBL, mostly in freebies but very little in liquid wealth (less than 300g total for a 5-6 man party). Last session, they finished a dungeon and came back to find their horses dead and the saddlebags stolen. When they were finally set upon by the thieves, who were some of the few people in the country with guns, the players’ prime concern was their missing tents. In fact, the only thing that kept them from outright killing the thieves was that they had to keep at least one alive to find out where they kept their tents. Keep in mind, the party is entirely LN or good.

Have I awoken something terrible in my friends?

[grimbold]

this is REALLY funny, but why aren't they worried about their other things like magic items and whatnot?

[Reize]

this is REALLY funny, but why aren't they worried about their other things like magic items and whatnot?

I wondered precisely the same thing.

[vegetalss4]

this is REALLY funny, but why aren't they worried about their other things like magic items and whatnot?

do you leave your magic items behind when you enter a dungeon?

[Xiander]

Taking into consideration the cost of a horse, those thieves were asking for it. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: vegetalss4 your sig is hilarious.

[Psyx]

If I'd just come out from spending 14 hours in a hole in the ground killing things and it was raining, then my first concern would be the tent, too. And yeah: I'd be pretty mad about it being stolen!

It's like finding you've lost everything in your pockets. Your immediate concern isn't the money: It's your door key.

This is how humans prioritise, from the bottom up:

http://www.ruralhealth.utas.edu.au/comm-lead/images/Maslows-needs-Pyramid.jpg


Basically, your PCs were just roleplaying well! kudos!

[JaronK]

Yeah, this is your players being VERY realistic. They want shelter first. These thieves took their shelter. It's on!

JaronK

[Thiyr]

one way humans prioritize*. Maslow isn't the only system of looking at human needs. Though that's a bit off topic so I won't discuss much on this (this is also a convenient way for me to sidestep any requests to provide such alternatives, as psych was never really really my thing, so I'm discussing from a comparably uneducated standpoint)

Regardless, I'd say that taking care of their stolen stuff isn't a -bad- thing necessarily. I'd say that depending on what they do with the thieves, they may be starting down the path to alignment shifting (and depending on what they were like before, this could be an interesting character revelation). Regardless, I'd say you've only made them care about their stuff. Not bad at all!

[Telonius]

If I'd just come out from spending 14 hours in a hole in the ground killing things and it was raining, then my first concern would be the tent, too. And yeah: I'd be pretty mad about it being stolen!

It's like finding you've lost everything in your pockets. Your immediate concern isn't the money: It's your door key.

This is how humans prioritise, from the bottom up:

http://www.ruralhealth.utas.edu.au/comm-lead/images/Maslows-needs-Pyramid.jpg


Basically, your PCs were just roleplaying well! kudos!

I think the typical Adventurers' hierarchy would go something like this:

Top: Staying in character
Avoiding DM wrath
Preventing character death
XP/levelling up
Bottom: Obtaining Loot

[Xiander]

I think the typical Adventurers' hierarchy would go something like this:

Top: Staying in character
Avoiding DM wrath
Preventing character death
XP/levelling up
Bottom: Obtaining Loot

Just curious... Where would tents figure in that?

[The Glyphstone]

Tents count as loot, obviously. Anything in their possession, or that could concievably enter their possession, is 'loot'.

[Fiery Diamond]

Just curious... Where would tents figure in that?

In the staying in character bit, presumably. I dunno.

[AyeGill]

I think most players think like this:
Top: avoiding DM wrath
avoiding character death
XP
Loot
Bottom: staying in character.

well, my players, at least. Though the staying in character thing might be keyed somewhat to avoiding DM wrath.

[The Glyphstone]

I think most players think like this:
Top: avoiding DM wrath
avoiding character death
XP
Loot
Bottom: staying in character.

well, my players, at least. Though the staying in character thing might be keyed somewhat to avoiding DM wrath.

Remember, you're supposed to read the pyramid from bottom to top. The widest portion is the most important, the tip is the least important.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Top: Staying in character
Avoiding DM wrath
Preventing character death
XP/levelling up
Bottom: Obtaining Lootlol. Not at all for me, but then again...

[AyeGill]

Remember, you're supposed to read the pyramid from bottom to top. The widest portion is the most important, the tip is the least important.

Oh. right.
reverse that, then
Top: staying in character.
Loot
XP
avoiding character death
Bottom: avoiding DM wrath

[Escheton]

Ever been backpacking? You form an emotional bond to your pack and your tent. You start missing it if you spend a few days indoors.
You would be royaly pissed off if someone dares to swipe it.
Now add in the armed and dangerous adventurer part.

Yeah, good roleplaying.

[Amiel]

The Adventurer's Hierarchy of Needs should at least involve killing things and taking their stuff as a base and ubiquitous need.
It's the reason they signed up to be adventurers.

[Apophis775]

I think most players think like this:
Top: avoiding DM wrath
avoiding character death
XP
Loot
Bottom: staying in character.

well, my players, at least. Though the staying in character thing might be keyed somewhat to avoiding DM wrath.


I wish my players thought like that. Mine are more of:


TOP: progressing
Avoiding DM wrath
Obtaining new loot/xp
Screwing other PC characters over (Stealing items/gold)
Bottom: Hitting on the nearest opposite sex NPC


Sadly, I've never seen them try to really "Stay in character" very hard. Occasionally when they do, it's just so they have an excuse to be jackasses. 2 examples(I wasn't dming):

1. One guy is a desert dwarf, so despite being a paladin (and the tank), low Dex, and a dwarf with a movement penality, he refused to wear anything but a chain shirt, because armor would make his dwarf hot. (No, we are not in a desert)

2. We had a changeling who made it a point to try and steal from the party members as often as humanly possible. We were on an elemental powered train (ebberon setting), and during the 5 day ride, he attempted to steal from both me and another member of the party while we were gambling, mainly because he ran out of money. I held back the urge to have my psion blast him into oblivion with juiced up powers because he didn't successfully steal from me...

[Asheram]

This is actually one of the funniest things I've read for a long while. :smallbiggrin:

Isn't that the big truth? You might send people after us, you may strike and wound us... But stealing our loot? That's crossing a line there, buddy.

[Gralamin]

I held back the urge to have my psion blast him into oblivion with juiced up powers because he didn't successfully steal from me...

That sounds like time to Control Body them into Jumping off the train :smallamused:

[Reize]

I never actually planned to create this mentality. And what surprised me wasn’t that they were angry with the thieves for stealing from them. I wouldn’t have bat an eyelash if they had killed them to retrieve their weapons, armor, or to finally get their hands on real gold. But they never even asked me about money. It was just, “don’t kill the last one. We need to get our tents back.”

[Coidzor]

So let me get this straight, the thieves took tents and rations and killed horses and left the bodies to rot.

Did your players not pick up on that one at all? :smallconfused:

[Reize]

So let me get this straight, the thieves took tents and rations and killed horses and left the bodies to rot.

Did your players not pick up on that one at all? :smallconfused:

Someone did suggest sleeping in the horses if that's what you mean.

[Coidzor]

Someone did suggest sleeping in the horses if that's what you mean.

Hopefully accompanied by cheesy laughter at the star wars reference...

Otherwise, find new players. :smalleek:

[absolmorph]

Someone did suggest sleeping in the horses if that's what you mean.
I think his point was that they killed horses, which cost 75+ gp, and left the bodies to rot (rather than, say, taking the horses and killing them at camp, or even selling the horses to someone) but took the tents and rations.
Not very rational theft.
Pun intended.

[umbrapolaris]

my pyramid will be that:


Top: avoiding character death (im a paranoid Vampire-demilich full spellcaster)
XP/loot
kill a god and then gains divine ranks.
find new (powerful) spells and magic items by any means for the purpose above)
Bottom: kill and reanimate powerful creatures to increase my undead army (still the same purpose)

^^

[Coidzor]

I'm pretty sure XP/Loot would be at the bottom of the pyramid, as it enables one to climb up its rungs.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm pretty sure XP/Loot would be at the bottom of the pyramid, as it enables one to climb up its rungs.
Filthy lucre is nice, but I find in-character rewards, like titles and relationships, to be very satisfying when used well. I hate being a rich hobo with no friends or real stake with the game world. Why am I murdering these orcs, why do I care whether Big Bad Evil Guy takes over the world? Loot and XP can further my goals, making me better equipped to fulfil my oaths to my liege, to protect my loved ones, but I find they can be unsatisfying rewards in and of themselves.
Oh and another thing I like, thematic loot. OK, it's a Flaming +1 Longsword, yahoo. But call it Trollbane, once owned by Dargin, Warden of the Western Reaches, and you got something.

[J.Gellert]

I'm pretty sure XP/Loot would be at the bottom of the pyramid, as it enables one to climb up its rungs.

Avoiding character death must be at the bottom, all else doesn't matter if you're dead. So it's the most basic need.

[FelixG]

Top: avoid GM wrath
pets!
xp/loot
roleplaying/story advancement
Bottom: Staying Alive

Staying alive should obviously be the most important bit
if not for story and characters why play a RPG instead of a videogame
Xp and loots make characters more fun
Pets...yah, i like to collect things, I pissed my GM for pathfinder off yesterday for attempting to train the chupacabra into a loyal pet :smallbiggrin:
And I trust my GMs not to rocks fall on me even if I do piss them off some how

[Trekkin]

This (http://web.archive.org/web/20060106110916/archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/ShowCLUE.php3?page=casefile22.htm) is not D&D, but is very related and an excellent example of why you respect the hierarchy of needs only when safe.

Incidentally, why not simply butcher the horses and make a tent frame from their bones and a covering from their skin? The average human has somewhat less than two square meters of skin, so, roughly scaling up, a single horse probably has enough to make at least a passable tent.

[FelixG]

This (http://web.archive.org/web/20060106110916/archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/ShowCLUE.php3?page=casefile22.htm) is not D&D, but is very related and an excellent example of why you respect the hierarchy of needs only when safe.

Incidentally, why not simply butcher the horses and make a tent frame from their bones and a covering from their skin? The average human has somewhat less than two square meters of skin, so, roughly scaling up, a single horse probably has enough to make at least a passable tent.

Epic idea: take the corpses to the local high level town, pay to have their bodies raises as skeletons after removing the meat and flesh. THey are now skeletal horses, you further remove the rips and make them attachable and tan the hide but give it the same outward apperance

then you sling all of your gear inside of the skeletal horse and put the covering over it and at night remove the covering and the removable ribs to make a tent!

[Trekkin]

I believe part of the problem is a general lack of future money. Raising horses is probably out of their financial reach.

Besides, an item of 1/day [insert preferred shelter spell] is almost assuredly cheaper than six undead horses, and can be used near Paladins without setting off their Detect Evil.

Great idea in general, though.

[FelixG]

I believe part of the problem is a general lack of future money. Raising horses is probably out of their financial reach.

Besides, an item of 1/day [insert preferred shelter spell] is almost assuredly cheaper than six undead horses, and can be used near Paladins without setting off their Detect Evil.

Great idea in general, though.

Could give the paladin a pause though "Why are living horses detecting against evil?!" that round of confusion can be a life or death deal :smallbiggrin:

My favorite item in any 3.P game is a 1/day of CL 13 mages magnificent mansion.

[Tavar]

Incidentally, why not simply butcher the horses and make a tent frame from their bones and a covering from their skin? The average human has somewhat less than two square meters of skin, so, roughly scaling up, a single horse probably has enough to make at least a passable tent.

Butchering an animal is a pretty time intensive process, one that needs some special tools if you really want to do it right. Presumably, the group didn't want to spend the time and didn't have the tools to do it.

[Grommen]

I think the typical Adventurers' hierarchy would go something like this:

Top: Staying in character
Avoiding DM wrath
Preventing character death
XP/levelling up
Bottom: Obtaining Loot

I would tend to agree as well.

However the tent....Is loot! And someone took it. That is a net loss of loot.

It's on :smallfurious:

[ScionoftheVoid]

Avoiding character death must be at the bottom, all else doesn't matter if you're dead. So it's the most basic need.

But this is D&D, where you can buy spells to bring people back to life. You need money (and therefore loot) to do that, and it's easier to afford if you're powerful (and therefore have lots of XP). That means that XP and loot allow you to avoid death or, failing that, reverse it, making XP and loot the bottom section.

[Tavar]

Also, worst case scenario, you're dead, so you need to make a new character. Some storylines may be closed off, but most won't be, thus diminishing survivals importance.

[Coidzor]

Filthy lucre is nice, but I find in-character rewards, like titles and relationships, to be very satisfying when used well. I hate being a rich hobo with no friends or real stake with the game world. Why am I murdering these orcs, why do I care whether Big Bad Evil Guy takes over the world? Loot and XP can further my goals, making me better equipped to fulfil my oaths to my liege, to protect my loved ones, but I find they can be unsatisfying rewards in and of themselves.

Which means those things would be higher up on the hierarchy than XP/Loot, because by themselves, XP/Loot are not satisfying, but a necessary part of furthering those things higher up on the hierarchy. :smalltongue:

So, yeah, survival, XP/loot to grow stronger, because rewards don't make sense if you're a level 1 putz and thus not really worthy of anything.


Also, worst case scenario, you're dead, so you need to make a new character. Some storylines may be closed off, but most won't be, thus diminishing survivals importance.

substitute survival for continuing on in the game, otherwise you have to start a new one and lose all the progress made in the last one.

[FoE]

I'm failing to see why murder ISN'T an acceptable solution here.

As a gamer, I've always maintained a "murder anyone who robs from me" policy myself, and it's worked pretty well in the past.

[druid91]

What if it's a party member who takes loot?

To cover for her own mess up?

Not really angry. As it did remove an unbalancing factor. But still.

[Tavar]

substitute survival for continuing on in the game, otherwise you have to start a new one and lose all the progress made in the last one.
True, though that's more of a group goal. As long as some survive, you can introduce new characters and continue, at least in more plotted games.

[Grendus]

:Top:
Staying in Character
Getting Loot
Getting Exp
Staying Alive
Avoiding DM Wrath
:Bottom:


Reasoning, from bottom to top:
1: The dm can kill you on a whim, and keep you dead if he wants. Never piss him off.
2: Dead men lose exp, and if you're lucky enough to have a party that will actually give you a share of the gold you missed by being worm food, please invite me!
3: Higher level characters get phatter lewt. Long term, exp trumps money, so long as you have enough to survive to the next level.
4: Gotta have enough gold to upgrade my +3 sword to a +4 sword so I can sleep safely in that ditch, I suppose.
5: Sure, yea, stay in character. But if you think that just because the BBEG used a giant spider to protect the mcguffin and my character is arachnophobic I'll be cowering in the corner, think again. I'll take a -2 penalty to attack rolls or something.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm failing to see why murder ISN'T an acceptable solution here.

As a gamer, I've always maintained a "murder anyone who robs from me" policy myself, and it's worked pretty well in the past.

Remember kids, you can't have 'manslaughter' withough 'laughter'.:smallbiggrin:

[Sillycomic]

I am honestly beginning to think these must be some magical tents. Perhaps there is a reason the adventurers want them back.

These tents were in saddlebags of horses. And we all know horses are more expensive than any regular saddlebag or tent. But, masterwork pavilion tents and rhinestone encrusted saddlebags of holding? Now you've got something.

Plus... the thieves actually took the saddlebags off of the horses in order to steal them. When they could have easily stolen the horses (and since the horses carried these saddlebags with all of the lewts on it, had stolen those too as bonus lewts)

It would have taken more effort on the thieves part to kill the horses and steal the tents then it would have to simply stolen the horses.

Which concludes that these tents are magical of some kind, but their magic only works when they are not around horses.

Sheesh, now I want to steal these tents. There must be something about these tents. They have to be mine.

[Reize]

Plus... the thieves actually took the saddlebags off of the horses in order to steal them. When they could have easily stolen the horses (and since the horses carried these saddlebags with all of the lewts on it, had stolen those too as bonus lewts)

It would have taken more effort on the thieves part to kill the horses and steal the tents then it would have to simply stolen the horses.



I guess I wasn't entirely accurate by calling them thieves. It was more of a plan to strand and murder a group of meddling kids than to rob them. I left the horse corpses as a clue to the party. Otherwise they might have walked around for an hour while wondering why their horses were so ill-mannered as to abandon the basement full of monsters. But compared to being without their precious canvas tarps, they must decided an attempt to murder them in their sleep was old hat.