CR and its meaning

[Hanuman]

So, I think we all use CR as "what the characters should be facing", but as far as I've found, they are more an aprox of the party's limits.

Really, I find it more interesting and useful to underpower campaigns then complicate them.

Can you give me some examples (besides just clever strategy such as Tucker's Kobalds) where the RP disables the characters from solving problems, but perhaps more original than simple political dilemmas?

[Psyren]

I'm not sure I understand you. The CR system is widely viewed as being a series of random numbers added to monster stat entries - intended to represent their difficulty, but in practice being vaguely related at best and completely misleading at worst.

CR and RP are two very different things. (You mean Challenge Rating and Role Playing, right?) I don't think Tucker's Kobolds involve much RP at all, save for the PCs screeching in pain and surprise as they flee.

[Frozen_Feet]

In a system like d20, that varies highly depending on what the party is capable of.

In a party with no casters to cast fly, even a simple canyon becomes a formidable obstacle. Situations which require out-of-the-box thinking can also be highly disarming if no obvious hint buttons are given, either in the form of divination magic or something else.

Emotions can be one too, one of my adventures almost ground to halt when the players were too afraid to go deeper into a temple they found themselves locked into. They were certain their characters would die, even though there'd not been a single hostile encounter yet.

I'm pretty proud of pulling that off, too, even though it took quite some prodding to get them moving again. :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't understand. What do political dilemmas have to do with CR? :smallconfused:

[TheCountAlucard]

Emotions can be one too, one of my adventures almost ground to halt when the players were too afraid to go deeper into a temple they found themselves locked into. They were certain their characters would die, even though there'd not been a single hostile encounter yet.Very, very true, emotions can be way more of a challenge than the monsters. One of the reasons description is such a useful tool to a GM.

@^: OP means that you don't have to use tarrasques or dragons to challenge the PCs when things like roleplay conditions can be just as much of an obstacle to overcome.

[Mastikator]

The CR is just a number that represents what level the PC's should be when they face him if there's 4 of the PC's and they are all not too powerful or weak. But since a PC can easily optimize so that his actual CR is way higher than his ELC the CR of the monster is meaningless even in a perfect world where it's accurate.

So yeah, it's easier and more rewarding (in my experience) to challenge them on a RP-base and get them involved in the story. Encourage them to have a non-combat oriented skill set and let them do some difference with that skill set.

[Curious]

Personally I think CR is off-base at best, and completely unfounded at worst. For example; in Pathfinder, a Will-o-the-wisp is CR 6, but its only abilities are to become invisible and to shock someone for a mere 2D8 damage. This seems grossly overestimated, in my opinion, as any one of the characters I run through my games could easily defeat a Will-o-the-wisp at level 2 or 3, minimum.

[Rixx]

Personally I think CR is off-base at best, and completely unfounded at worst. For example; in Pathfinder, a Will-o-the-wisp is CR 6, but its only abilities are to become invisible and to shock someone for a mere 2D8 damage. This seems grossly overestimated, in my opinion, as any one of the characters I run through my games could easily defeat a Will-o-the-wisp at level 2 or 3, minimum.

It's immune to magic, and has a 26 AC and attacks at +16. It also has a 20+ modifier to Stealth on top of its invisibility. A standard non-optimized 15 point buy character will have trouble defeating it at all before level 3 or 4.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's immune to magic, and has a 26 AC and attacks at +16. It also has a 20+ modifier to Stealth on top of its invisibility. A standard non-optimized 15 point buy character will have trouble defeating it at all before level 3 or 4.

I hate hate hate that even Pathfinder calls "Magic Immunity" and "Immune to Magic" what they call it. They should call it something accurate, like, "Infinite Spell Resistance"...

Lessee..

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/will-o--wisp

Hmmm. Flight, a decent but not great invisibility, good move, kinda sucky attack... high ac and touch ac... looks like a "easy as pie if you know the trick" sort of monster.

[nyjastul69]

Personally I think CR is off-base at best, and completely unfounded at worst. For example; in Pathfinder, a Will-o-the-wisp is CR 6, but its only abilities are to become invisible and to shock someone for a mere 2D8 damage. This seems grossly overestimated, in my opinion, as any one of the characters I run through my games could easily defeat a Will-o-the-wisp at level 2 or 3, minimum.

A Will-o-the-Wisp is a beast that should draw the characters into a quagmire. It shouldn't be a primary opponent.

[Hanuman]

A Will-o-the-Wisp is a beast that should draw the characters into a quagmire. It shouldn't be a primary opponent.
Agreed, it should be a combination of suggestion to do something reasonable, and distraction to make it seem reasonable.

What I mean is to make what would normally be "not worth the XP" challenges into actual complications, we have politics, emotions, terrain, ect. as good ones, what about custom and homebrew magic effects and such?

What about moral uncertainty, what if you fight for a kingdom but the enemies are rebels on puppet strings who are innocent people of the kingdom who are just confused?

[Vangor]

I have been trying to figure out the question of the topic for a while now, but the CR v RP v political machinations v XP interweaving discussion is throwing me for a loop. What exactly is being asked of Challenge Rating?

[Hanuman]

I have been trying to figure out the question of the topic for a while now, but the CR v RP v political machinations v XP interweaving discussion is throwing me for a loop. What exactly is being asked of Challenge Rating?
What are some ways of avoiding challenging the characters to their fullest mechanically while not making the situation easy for them?

Having a CR trend of what you find is kinda boring.

[Popertop]

give them free stuff with strings attached,
make combat involve innocent bystanders that could be harmed
in the process,
heavy moral dilemmas,
all good fun

[Curious]

It's immune to magic, and has a 26 AC and attacks at +16. It also has a 20+ modifier to Stealth on top of its invisibility. A standard non-optimized 15 point buy character will have trouble defeating it at all before level 3 or 4.

Sorry, I should have clarified; the characters that are run in my group are probably more powerful than average, since we role for stats using 4d6, taking the highest three, and re-rolling any ones. We like to have heroic stats for heroic characters.:smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

Personally I think CR is off-base at best, and completely unfounded at worst. For example; in Pathfinder, a Will-o-the-wisp is CR 6, but its only abilities are to become invisible and to shock someone for a mere 2D8 damage. This seems grossly overestimated, in my opinion, as any one of the characters I run through my games could easily defeat a Will-o-the-wisp at level 2 or 3, minimum.

Pathfinder changed CR.
In 3.5 CR of Party Lv=Challenging fight.
Pathfinder = CR = Party lv +1= Challenging Fight.

So you are supposed to be able to fight harder fights based on CR.
So they assume you can easily fight 4 of them each day at level 5.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html#table-12-3-cr-equivalencies

I'd say it would be hard (as pSRD says) for a 3rd level.
It has good AC, 50% miss (invisible), if it knocks someone to dying (it heals). It hits almost always at low levels (high touch attack), but it is energy damage so you can resist.

[ImAPrettyKitten]

CR is correct for the most part, most people just don't read the description and learn that there is generally a certain amount that they say for it to be CR whatever. Like Host Devil, they are SUPPOSED to be in groups of the thousands to take those who cheat death back. So to take from this, don't look at the CR only. There is a description for a reason.

[Flickerdart]

Having a CR trend of what you find is kinda boring.
It's fairly trivial to advance weaker monsters, and also possible to weaken tougher monsters, to the point that what level you happen to be doesn't actually mean anything in regard to what you're facing. A level 10 party might fight some level 10 kobold fighters, or a wounded and ill Great Wyrm.

[jiriku]

It's fairly trivial to advance weaker monsters, and also possible to weaken tougher monsters, to the point that what level you happen to be doesn't actually mean anything in regard to what you're facing. A level 10 party might fight some level 10 kobold fighters, or a wounded and ill Great Wyrm.

+1. I do this all the time. Players love/hate me for it.


What are some ways of avoiding challenging the characters to their fullest mechanically while not making the situation easy for them?
Having a CR trend of what you find is kinda boring.

Put the PCs in situations where they will voluntarily limit themselves. Risk of collateral damage is a good way to do this. A time limit in combat is another -- perhaps the players must defeat the encounter before the xyz can arrive in 3 rounds. Or perhaps the players must not only defeat the encounter, but do so in complete silence to avoid alerting the xyz. Maybe drawing weapons/casting spells/spilling blood is forbidden within the holy city and they must fight at a handicap while opposing the xyz or else offend the Powers That Be. Perhaps they are not here to fight the xyz at all, but must retrieve/destroy the Macguffin while fending off a sudden ambush from the xyz.

Combine several of these at once for real fun. PCs are attending a religious ritual in the holy Forbidden City when the blasphemous XYZ attacks. Spilling blood is forbidden within the Holy City, but they must defend the sacred idol as best they can until the holy monks of the city arrive to defend the idol. The surroundings are full of priceless sacred art and architecture and panicked innocent civilians -- they must avoid directly harming either, with a secondary objective of minimizing any damage the XYZ inflicts -- but defending the idol is the top priority. This is a very challenging encounter even if the OpFor isn't very strong.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.