PDA

View Full Version : Read about an interesting trap



Traab
2011-01-02, 09:53 PM
And wanted to hear thoughts on how well it could function for a D&D game. The party is walking down a long hallway, when suddenly the floor drops out from under them. At the bottom of the pit are silver tipped spikes, not impossible to miss them btw, its hardly like a bed of nails down there. If you survive the fall, (once again, hardly impossible with all the spells and other mechanics) and dont get impaled on the spikes, there are 4 trolls down there waiting for you. You might think that the trolls are the trap right? Wrong, they are the distraction. The doors swinging open triggers a magical build up, after a certain length of time, the walls, floor, spikes, all will heat up to the point of flash frying.

Heres how it worked out in the story, (remember, this wasnt a D&D game) One member had a belt that let her fall like a cat. So she avoided the spikes and landed on her feet. One was able to levitate the other 3 members in mid plummet, but not himself. Luckily he was wearing some pretty solid armor, he skidded off the spike he hit with a nasty bruise. The other three landed safely due to the levitation effect, (think feather fall) When the trolls attacked, three of the party members shape shifted into Nemean lions, (awesomely strong, HIGHLY resistant to damage) and basically tore them apart. At this point the temprature was rising rapidly and about to hit the flash point. The three shape shifters had also been through an EXTREMELY rare and powerful ritual that made them so totally immune to fire damage that they could swim in a vocano and not take fire damage. They shrank down the two less protected members, and put them into a sealed pocket of their armor, thus protecting them from the flame.

Now, the real question here is, would this trap, assuming that you fell for it in the first place, kill most D&D groups? Or would it be just a challenge, but doable? Or so easy that its almost a waste of time? HOW would you survive this stuff? Adjust monster levels to match your groups of course.

DMfromTheAbyss
2011-01-02, 09:57 PM
Depends entirely on the group. A high level group that has members that could say.. survive a volcano erupting on them might only find it a challenge or hassle. A lower powered/level group might find it inescapable death.

So depending on magic, power level and specific abilities is varies quite a bit.

Traab
2011-01-02, 10:08 PM
ARE there actual spells/items/whatever that make you completely immune to all forms of fire damage out there in the game? That they can reduce damage im sure, but to be totally, utterly, completely, and unendingly immune to fire damage, everything from stepping into a campfire, to standing in front of the oldest and most powerful fire breathing dragon and breaking out the marshmallows? As for the monsters and spike pit, is it possible to scale up the damage they are each capable of dishing out by level? Or will a spiked pit always do "x" base damage, wether against a level 1 party, or a level 20?

EagleWiz
2011-01-02, 11:25 PM
ARE there actual spells/items/whatever that make you completely immune to all forms of fire damage out there in the game? That they can reduce damage im sure, but to be totally, utterly, completely, and unendingly immune to fire damage, everything from stepping into a campfire, to standing in front of the oldest and most powerful fire breathing dragon and breaking out the marshmallows?

That would be a yes.

Cealocanth
2011-01-02, 11:31 PM
And wanted to hear thoughts on how well it could function for a D&D game. The party is walking down a long hallway, when suddenly the floor drops out from under them. At the bottom of the pit are silver tipped spikes, not impossible to miss them btw, its hardly like a bed of nails down there. If you survive the fall, (once again, hardly impossible with all the spells and other mechanics) and dont get impaled on the spikes, there are 4 trolls down there waiting for you. You might think that the trolls are the trap right? Wrong, they are the distraction. The doors swinging open triggers a magical build up, after a certain length of time, the walls, floor, spikes, all will heat up to the point of flash frying.

Heres how it worked out in the story, (remember, this wasnt a D&D game) One member had a belt that let her fall like a cat. So she avoided the spikes and landed on her feet. One was able to levitate the other 3 members in mid plummet, but not himself. Luckily he was wearing some pretty solid armor, he skidded off the spike he hit with a nasty bruise. The other three landed safely due to the levitation effect, (think feather fall) When the trolls attacked, three of the party members shape shifted into Nemean lions, (awesomely strong, HIGHLY resistant to damage) and basically tore them apart. At this point the temprature was rising rapidly and about to hit the flash point. The three shape shifters had also been through an EXTREMELY rare and powerful ritual that made them so totally immune to fire damage that they could swim in a vocano and not take fire damage. They shrank down the two less protected members, and put them into a sealed pocket of their armor, thus protecting them from the flame.

Now, the real question here is, would this trap, assuming that you fell for it in the first place, kill most D&D groups? Or would it be just a challenge, but doable? Or so easy that its almost a waste of time? HOW would you survive this stuff? Adjust monster levels to match your groups of course.

Seems like a pretty routine Full encounter trap. As long as the group is sufficiently high level, they should survive, if not a little worse for wear. Most Rogues could climb out of the pit eventually, and if they couldn't handle the trolls in time to climb out of the pit on a rope the rogue attached, then there's plenty of items out there that could reduce that vaporization without representation into little more of a static shock.

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-03, 02:23 AM
The trap would need some way to prevent the characters from leaving before they defeated the trolls. Otherwise, they could just Fly or Dimension Door out of there. Perhaps one of the trolls is holding the key to the adamantine exit. The chamber itself could also be warded against teleportation.

Gavinfoxx
2011-01-03, 02:49 AM
Adamantine exit? You sure you wanna drop a bunch of money on the party like that??

Kaww
2011-01-03, 02:56 AM
For a high level party adamantine door isn't that much cash. It's not a challenge ether... Illusion of adamantine door and a real stone one on the opposite side of the wall dungeon/pit however is a bit of a challenge...

DrizztFan24
2011-01-03, 02:58 AM
Better idea. Use an element not fire or acid. Then when the trolls die from the massive elemental damage, they can regenerate and you can use them again. It only makes sense as a bad guy. Why make a trap with which you need to constantly find new trolls?

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 05:35 AM
ARE there actual spells/items/whatever that make you completely immune to all forms of fire damage out there in the game? That they can reduce damage im sure, but to be totally, utterly, completely, and unendingly immune to fire damage, everything from stepping into a campfire, to standing in front of the oldest and most powerful fire breathing dragon and breaking out the marshmallows?

Yes. Energy immunity lasts 24 hours (long enough to count, as combat is measured in 6-second rounds). Clerics and druids can cast it at 11th level; wizards at 13th.

As for the spike pit, traps are usually used by the DM, who is free to bend/break the rules. Things don't "autoscale" by level, though, so yes, the same trap would deal the same base damage against whoever falls into it, though a high-level party will likely be able to brush it off. In 3.5, Challenges are measured by the CR (Challenge Rating) system, which is a very rough and often inaccurate system to be sure, but the idea is that certain monsters/traps/situations are plausible challenges for parties of a certain level. The basic assumption is that a party of X level should be able to consume 1/4 of its resources against an encounter of the same level.

For example, a party of a fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard, each level 1, should be able to fight four Encounter Level 1 encounters a day, consuming enough resources so that they can still deal with the next, until the fourth. By the fourth, they might end up being unable to kill anything or end up dead.

However, even for creatures with technically the same Challenge Rating, their difficulty can possibly vary widely. A 10th-level fighter, a 10th-level druid, and a juvenile red dragon are all supposed to be CR 10, but in practice, they're going to be very different encounters.

It's more of an art than a science, though, so it's up to the DM to decide whether he should employ certain encounters or not.

Traab
2011-01-03, 06:20 PM
Yes. Energy immunity lasts 24 hours (long enough to count, as combat is measured in 6-second rounds). Clerics and druids can cast it at 11th level; wizards at 13th.

As for the spike pit, traps are usually used by the DM, who is free to bend/break the rules. Things don't "autoscale" by level, though, so yes, the same trap would deal the same base damage against whoever falls into it, though a high-level party will likely be able to brush it off. In 3.5, Challenges are measured by the CR (Challenge Rating) system, which is a very rough and often inaccurate system to be sure, but the idea is that certain monsters/traps/situations are plausible challenges for parties of a certain level. The basic assumption is that a party of X level should be able to consume 1/4 of its resources against an encounter of the same level.

For example, a party of a fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard, each level 1, should be able to fight four Encounter Level 1 encounters a day, consuming enough resources so that they can still deal with the next, until the fourth. By the fourth, they might end up being unable to kill anything or end up dead.

However, even for creatures with technically the same Challenge Rating, their difficulty can possibly vary widely. A 10th-level fighter, a 10th-level druid, and a juvenile red dragon are all supposed to be CR 10, but in practice, they're going to be very different encounters.

It's more of an art than a science, though, so it's up to the DM to decide whether he should employ certain encounters or not.

Ah you see, that was part of what I was going for. Back in classic Final Fantasy 1, if you didnt have the right balance of classes and skills, many boss fights were downright unwinnable. I kinda messed up how I phrased the original question, I didnt so much want to see how the perfect group, one you just made up on the spot specifically for this trap, would be able to win, I was just curious to see if most groups would naturally have the skills needed to survive the trap, or if some would die, or even all of them.

Oh, and reading back on the story trap, the stone trapdoors a solid 20 feet above the spike pit closed and magically sealed themselves. There is also no magical transportation like teleporting, or portals allowed inside this building, as its a heavily warded magical stronghold. So in order to get out, you would need to find a way to kill the trolls, have someone climb up a fairly sheer wall, break the magical seal on the door, and have a way to get the rest out. A rope wouldnt do it, as by that time, its likely hot enough to burn rope, unless perhaps that rouge started climbing and ignored the battle as soon as he safely hit bottom. Even then you might be cutting it close.

And by flash frying I dont mean there is a sudden blast of 2000 degree heat and its done, but that the temperature quickly rises to the level of a blast furnace and stays there for a fairly solid length of time. So no single BOOM! "Ok, I made my single saving throw and the trap is over" its more like every round doing a roll to see what damage you are taking until you either die or escape. The trolls are basically there to delay you long enough for the temperature to hit those lethal levels. So you would have time to cast those fire protection spells and such, assuming the trolls arent able to stop you for whatever reason.

Also, you better hope your gear is protected as well, as it would kinda suck if your robe or elather wearing party members were suddenly down an item slot or two for lack of protection. :p In the story a girl in the party lost her underwear in the heat, as it was the only stuff she had on that wasnt protected. lol

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 07:48 PM
Okay, let's take the trap piece by piece and see how they can potentially be dealt with (not to say that all parties can possibly have all of these ready).

I'm going to use the four trolls as a baseline. Four trolls, each at CR 5, make the trolls alone a 9th-level encounter, so let's assume the party is at Lv 9.


And wanted to hear thoughts on how well it could function for a D&D game. The party is walking down a long hallway, when suddenly the floor drops out from under them. At the bottom of the pit are silver tipped spikes, not impossible to miss them btw, its hardly like a bed of nails down there.

Using this trap:

Spiked Pit Trap
CR 5; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; DC 25 Reflex save avoids; 40 ft. deep (4d6, fall); multiple targets (first target in each of two adjacent 5-ft. squares); pit spikes (Atk +10 melee, 1d4 spikes per target for 1d4+4 each); Search DC 21; Disable Device DC 20.

A 9th-level party is likely able to survive the fall without any trouble; the Rogue would either have disabled the trap to begin with, or fallen without taking any damage. The others might take some damage from the fall, but at 9th level, attacks at a +10 AB are more likely to miss than hit.
a. The fighter would likely have +2 full plate, which gives an armor bonus of 10, so he'd have an AC of around 20 (likely more, if he has a shield). Each of the spikes has a less than 50% chance of rolling the 20 it takes to hurt the fighter. If he has a magical heavy shield (+3), even less.
b. The rogue, having a +2 chain shirt, would have an AC of around 20 as well (assuming the +6 armor bonus and 18 Dexterity). The spikes would miss as well.
c. The wizard might take damage if he didn't have his buffs up, but since Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magearmor.htm) at this level lasts longer the entire adventuring day (9 hours), he probably has it on, giving him an AC of at least 16. Only about 1/4 of the spikes will hit him. Let's say one does. An average roll of 2.5 will deal 6 damage. No biggie at Lv 9.
d. Let's say the cleric is in +2 chainmail (+7 armor bonus), even though it's just as likely he has full plate like the fighter. He also likely has a heavy shield (+2 if it's nonmagical). 19 armor will likely protect him from all the spikes he encounters.

Note that these are bog-standard numbers and are not optimized. It's highly possible to get numbers that are much higher than these. Even then, the trap hasn't hurt them much.



If you survive the fall, (once again, hardly impossible with all the spells and other mechanics) and dont get impaled on the spikes, there are 4 trolls down there waiting for you. You might think that the trolls are the trap right? Wrong, they are the distraction. The doors swinging open triggers a magical build up, after a certain length of time, the walls, floor, spikes, all will heat up to the point of flash frying.


Trolls in D&D are annoying in that all damage dealt to them is immediately converted to nonlethal damage, unless that damage is dealt by fire or acid. This regeneration will keep them in the fight quite long. What is unfortunate is that the trolls will be incinerated by the spikes too.

It depends how long the spikes take to heat up, but a single round of casting from the cleric and the wizard should be enough to get up two protection from energy: fire spells up (while the fighter handles the trolls).

The fighter, assuming he has 23 AC (again, +10 from armor, +3 from his heavy shield), can easily take the +9 attack bonus of the trolls, who have to roll a 14 or higher to hit him. That's a 70% chance to miss.

Alternatively, the wizard could simply cast glitterdust on the trolls, blinding them. Assuming he has 18 Intelligence, that puts the DC of his spell at 16. Each troll needs to roll a 13 to pass, due to their pathetic +3 Will save
(Giant-type monsters have miserably weak mental defenses). With the trolls blinded (adding a further 50% miss chance IF they know where to attack), the cleric can cast Protection from Energy on himself (so he can heal the fighter and rogue once they get out).

Assuming the heat goes off, I'll model this on the CR 9 Fire Summoning Trap in DMG2, which both blasts a 20 foot radius area with 11d6 worth of fire damage every round for a full minute (10 combat rounds). In the book, this trap even includes a summoned fire elemental, but let's leave that out, lowering its CR to 8.

The average damage dealt here is 3.5*11, or 38. The fighter, assuming he had not been hit by the trolls, would have to fail two Reflex saves in a row to get barbecued.

Against 38 damage/turn, assuming they fail their saves, the cleric and wizard have 2 turns of no damage and 1 turn of minor damage from the remaining protection before they start taking major damage. The wizard casts levitate, only needing to move up vertically; the cleric might have to cast air walk.

The fighter and rogue start climbing out. 20 feet is a cinch to climb; the Rogue shouldn't have any problems making the DC. I assume a "typical dungeon wall," which has a DC of 20. A rogue with maxed ranks in Climb (easy to do) has 12 ranks, needing only an 8 to pass the checks. The fighter will have a problem due to his armor's penalty, but even then the wizard still has time to cast spider climb on the fighter to get him out.



Oh, and reading back on the story trap, the stone trapdoors a solid 20 feet above the spike pit closed and magically sealed themselves. There is also no magical transportation like teleporting, or portals allowed inside this building, as its a heavily warded magical stronghold.

Dispel magic, which either the wizard or cleric can cast. Considering the wizard needs to stay behind to cast spider climb on the fighter, the cleric should do it.



So in order to get out, you would need to find a way to kill the trolls
Blinded by the glitterdust, the trolls get incinerated by the trap.


have someone climb up a fairly sheer wall
Depending on the circumstances, the DC can be 20 (10 if the space is narrow enough to brace one's back against the other wall).


Break the magical seal on the door
As mentioned, dispel magic, assuming this is a fairly low-level spell like hold portal.


and have a way to get the rest out.
The rogue, wizard and cleric can easily do it. The fighter is in the worst trouble due to his armor penalty.


Also, you better hope your gear is protected as well, as it would kinda suck if your robe or elather wearing party members were suddenly down an item slot or two for lack of protection. :p In the story a girl in the party lost her underwear in the heat, as it was the only stuff she had on that wasnt protected. lol

Only unattended objects are subject to damage from area spells; anything you wear on your person is protected as well as you are.

Against a 9th-level party, this is easily an 11th level encounter.

Resources consumed:
Wizard's Spells: glitterdust, protection from energy, mage armor, spider climb, levitate/fly
Cleric's spells: protection from energy, air walk, dispel magic; potentially a lot of healing spells.
Fighter's HP: Most of it, assuming failed reflex saves and average damage.
Rogue's HP: Potentially none; Evasion will have protected her from the trap.

The party has not lost anyone, but a 9th-level party should be done for the day.

Aside: This shows you how D&D is balanced. The casters pretty much save everyone's gluteus; the fighter, despite supposedly being the meat shield, didn't really do anything but get scorched, and for all his physical might, was unable to pull himself out. The rogue was able to survive unharmed, but might have not been able to do anything to hurt the trolls. She could have, however, spotted the trap to begin with and disabled/gone around it.

Traab
2011-01-03, 08:02 PM
Cool! So in a D&D game, it was a good trap. Well balanced enough to challenge, not overpowered enough to easily kill off your group, nor so easy it was merely an annoyance to waste time getting past. Just for reference, not that I think it matters much in the long run, but it was the entire trap chamber, not the spikes, that heated up. So walls, floor, spikes, everything was quickly heating to blast furnace levels. I dunno if trying to scale a wall that is rapidly approaching the point of causing the 11d6 level of damage would effect a rouge scaling it or not.

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 08:10 PM
Well, the trap I referenced assumed that the entire area was being blasted, so imagine the entire area being shot through by large gas burners. All the damage that can be dealt is factored into this, I'd say.

hobbitkniver
2011-01-03, 09:30 PM
Better idea. Use an element not fire or acid. Then when the trolls die from the massive elemental damage, they can regenerate and you can use them again. It only makes sense as a bad guy. Why make a trap with which you need to constantly find new trolls?

I like this guys idea to not use fire. It makes sense right? Why would a big bad put in a creature thats vulnerable to his trap? If it really needs to be fire, maybe a fire based creature? I feel like trolls would be a stupid choice from the villians perspective.

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 09:33 PM
I like this guys idea to not use fire. It makes sense right? Why would a big bad put in a creature thats vulnerable to his trap? If it really needs to be fire, maybe a fire based creature? I feel like trolls would be a stupid choice from the villians perspective.

Well, the original trap was not based on D&D. The OP was asking if the same trap would work in D&D.

I personally would use a lightning trap instead, or just flood the darn thing if I wanted to make sure everyone died. Held breath = no mouth movements = no verbal components!

Traab
2011-01-03, 09:48 PM
Well there is also the fact that you dont want to make the trap too deadly. After all, you could always have the pit open up, then .25 seconds later, a perfectly sized 50 ton chunk of stone falls off the ceiling crushing everything in the pit instantly. No way to dodge because there is perhaps a quarter inch of clearance on every side of the block of stone, no time to dodge either, as the block starts dropping before you even reach the spikes, let alone get started on climbing back out. And it weighs enough to crush everything short of a greater freaking wyrm. No saving throw will get you out of that one once the trap is triggered.

Anyways, back to the original trap, the whole point of the trolls isnt to kill them, its to delay. Every round you waste fighting the trolls, is another round not being spent getting out of the quickly charging fire trap. In D&D terms, it could just as easily be a pit of molasses, something to slow you down long enough for the final aspect of the trap to go off and kill you. :p Hell, the molasses might be more deadly in the long run, that stuff hardens from heat drying it out. You could be stuck in the equivalent of waist deep cement being pounded by flames while unable to move!

Jack_Simth
2011-01-03, 10:09 PM
ARE there actual spells/items/whatever that make you completely immune to all forms of fire damage out there in the game? Energy Immunity, from Spell Compendium. 24 hour duration, does pretty much what you'd think.

Although the Searing Spell feat (Sandstorm) means fire does half damage anyway.

As for the monsters and spike pit, is it possible to scale up the damage they are each capable of dishing out by level? Or will a spiked pit always do "x" base damage, wether against a level 1 party, or a level 20?
A couple of things about the trap don't make sense.

Why are the monsters there? Are *they* immune to the fire? Why didn't they trigger the trap already, so the thing is piping hot when first the party falls into it?

As for scaling, well, there's a reason the Core trap listing stops at CR 10 in 3.5 D&D. Beyond that, everyone takes a fire resist potion/spell, or claps a hand on the Wizard's shoulder as he Dimension Doors back into the hallway.

But yes: Whether or not you kill the party is based primarily on party makeup. If they have a proper dedicated trapfinder, it's not even a speedbump unless you pump the save DC above what the trapfinder is going to make.

Traab
2011-01-03, 10:30 PM
Energy Immunity, from Spell Compendium. 24 hour duration, does pretty much what you'd think.

Although the Searing Spell feat (Sandstorm) means fire does half damage anyway.

A couple of things about the trap don't make sense.

Why are the monsters there? Are *they* immune to the fire? Why didn't they trigger the trap already, so the thing is piping hot when first the party falls into it?

As for scaling, well, there's a reason the Core trap listing stops at CR 10 in 3.5 D&D. Beyond that, everyone takes a fire resist potion/spell, or claps a hand on the Wizard's shoulder as he Dimension Doors back into the hallway.

But yes: Whether or not you kill the party is based primarily on party makeup. If they have a proper dedicated trapfinder, it's not even a speedbump unless you pump the save DC above what the trapfinder is going to make.

Ok, in order, the monsters are there to kill/delay. This was from a book im reading, not a D&D campaign, the trap was setup to have three lethal parts. The spikes. If you managed to avoid impaling yourself on the spikes, a room full of trolls, which in this story are 8-12 feet tall, very physically strong, resistant to magic, and dumber than chocolate pants, would be the next layer that kills you. If by some freakish twist of luck you survived both those things, this entire time, the entire chamber was heating up like a stove burner, until it reaches a point where most metal would be melting. Three layers, all lethal, and in the case of this story, each should be fatal, not merely a minor hassle.

No they arent immune to the fire, though they should last longer than a group of 13 year old humans. Trolls are idiots, they couldnt trigger a sneezing fit in a pepper factory let alone a magical trap, the trap goes off automatically, it just takes a little time to reach lethal levels.

Also, no teleporting allowed, the entire building makes it impossible to magically travel anywhere on the grounds.

Finally, the entire point is could a group survive the trap, so being able to avoid it isnt a factor, its, could you survive it if it went off?

AslanCross
2011-01-04, 12:42 AM
The interesting thing is that while the bog-standard party (which the CR system assumes) might potentially suffer heavy damage, a moderately-built party might be able to escape with nary a hitch.

A 9th-level Psychic Warrior with Psionic Meditation could activate his Speed of Thought and Up the Walls feats as a move action, and wall-run out of the pit before the burnination happens.

A 9th-level Tiger Claw Warblade with the Leaping Dragon stance and Sudden Leap would be able to get out as a swift action, or at least jump up far enough to cling onto the walls and climb the rest of the way.

Even minor changes to the Wizard's spell list could allow him to get out without anyone getting hurt: Casting celerity could allow him to cast fly on himself and one other person, or perhaps even cast mass fly, fly everyone up, and blast the trolls for good measure.

Masaioh
2011-01-04, 12:51 AM
I say replace the furnace with a device that causes a sonic boom. Nobody expects sonic damage, let alone thinks to prepare specifically for it!

Other than that, awesome idea for a trap.