[3.5] Sacrifice for Saint Template

[Claudius Maximus]

I have a player in my campaign who I think would like the Saint template from BoED. The character is definitely good enough for Saint and meets all the mechanical requirements, so I'm inclined to grant it. There is, however, one outstanding issue:


Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or her life) for the good of another.

The character hasn't really met this fluff requirement, and while I'm aware I could just handwave it, I think I'd rather set up a circumstance where the character could go for some suitably epic sacrifice to finally earn the template. This is where the playground (hopefully) comes in. What interesting or awesome circumstances can you think of that involve personal sacrifice? I'm actually open to entire adventures and quests, since the PCs will enter a time of relative "freedom" very soon as the villains go back into scheme mode.

If it helps you guys tailor an idea, here is some information about the character:
The character in question will be a CG Barbarian 6/Champion of Gwynharwyf 4 when the adventure takes place.

He was born a half-orc but was raised by halflings since his tribe was destroyed when he was a baby. He became exalted by fighting evil and saving a nearby settlement of a foreign empire. Positive experiences with good dragons led to him deciding to become a Dragonborn, and he has already helped slay a green dragon. He instantly and spontaneously gained his PrC while defeating a demon that had subjugated and cursed an entire town (which was an awesome moment, and I might be amenable to another such spontaneous upgrade). He has done much to oppose a nearby cult of Mephistopeles.

Personality wise he is protective and paternal, and totally wrecks the faces of people who harm the helpless or innocent (especially women and double especially children). Very sympathetic to evil done under duress or forced circumstances, so he has a lot of sympathy for things like vampires, werewolves and possessed people, and less exotically, people who do things like steal to feed their kids. The player has shown an interest in vampire morality in particular. Hates slavery and oppression, and the sort of people who create those above forced circumstances.

So the short list is dragons, devils, and vampires, but much much more is on the table if a good story can be told.
Like I said I'm willing to make an entire small arc out of this. The party can work on adventuring contracts, and even beyond that most of the other characters are pretty easy to shoe in motivations for.

[MammonAzrael]

Well...he's an adventurer, right? So the most precious thing he could sacrifice is...his equipment.

j/k

Kinda

Seriously though, this is hard to know without the character's backstory. What is important to him? The halfling tribe that raised him? Sounds like he is a pretty good RPer, so you shouldn't have too much trouble coming up with something.

Additionally, have you read page 29 of the BoED? How much of a stickler of you with Exalted? It sounds like he is meeting your requirements for it, yes? Gaining Sainthood is an effective free two levels...so perhaps he needs to give up something like an arm or part of his soul, or something that could carry some nasty penalties either then or later. Perhaps they sacrifice a part of themselves to redeem an evil like a vamp or werewolf.

Is the fact that he may outshine other party members with this new template of awesome a concern for anyone in your group? Cause that could happen.

[Zonugal]

The biggest thing that jumped out at me as his interest in vampires, so I'd go ahead and perhaps use that as a foundation. Perhaps have him track a vampire to a kingdom only to find out that the King's son has been infected. You can than set-up a lot of options of him including breaking into the King's castle to rescue his son, before he is killed by his father, to attempt to cure him of the curse.

As a result the kingdom (and their Church) decrees him to be a villain. His reputation tarnished and being hunted by paladins and knights, he has to give up his former life all for the sake of the child.

[Gabe the Bard]

I agree that it could be interesting to have some negative effect (not necessarily permanent) that is associated with the Saint template, such as a curse or possession by a demon.

An ex-villain, someone who had made contracts with demons, is trying to reform himself. But a powerful demon wants to return him to his evil ways. In order to prevent the would-be reformer from being possessed and to save his soul, your barbarian can choose to take the demon into his own body.

The demon's presence is suppressed by a divine power which grants the barbarian sainthood. Or perhaps the powers of the template are actually being channeled from the demon itself. Either way, the demon is there, waiting for a chance to get free and wreak havoc with the barbarian's strength. (It could become interesting if there's a % chance of the demon getting free each time the barbarian rages.)

Getting rid of the demon (while keeping the template) could be the next part of the adventure.

[FelixG]

I like the sacrificing of his reputation.

Goes in hand with the dark knight:
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

[Claudius Maximus]

Many of the other PCs have LA that they've bought off, so the boost granted by Saint won't be as big as it normally would. I imagine any further complaints could be stopped by making Saint's LA impossible to buy off (it is worth a lot more than the racial LA the others had, after all).

The sacrifice of his reputation would be a hard one to pull of in this game, because it would drag down the whole party (they are notable people who are known to be linked). Some of the party members are very interested in their reputations, so I expect that approach wouldn't go over very well with those players.

[Jack_Simth]

Go undercover as slaves for a time, to break a slaving ring.

The guy who values freedom above almost all else needs to:
1) Find a slaver
2) Get caught by him
3) Lick boots, muck stables, take arbitrary beatings & whippings to maintain his cover of being a good slave.
4) Bust out a few months later when he is transferred through the central holding pens
5) Take down the slaving ring

[Toliudar]

Establish a sympathetic NPC who has traded his soul for some noble end (a fiend's help in curing a plague, breaking a goblin seige, whatever), and let the PC's find out that another could offer his soul in place of the NPC's. This not only could be the sacrifice by the PC, but also opens up an interesting side quest to either break the contract, work off a debt of service in order to let him keep it, or establishes a high-level quest to rescue the soul from hell.

[Zonugal]

Many of the other PCs have LA that they've bought off, so the boost granted by Saint won't be as big as it normally would. I imagine any further complaints could be stopped by making Saint's LA impossible to buy off (it is worth a lot more than the racial LA the others had, after all).

The sacrifice of his reputation would be a hard one to pull of in this game, because it would drag down the whole party (they are notable people who are known to be linked). Some of the party members are very interested in their reputations, so I expect that approach wouldn't go over very well with those players.

I think that would add even more to the dramatic tension.

"I do not want to be decreed an enemy of the state."
"We have to save that child!"

[FelixG]

I think that would add even more to the dramatic tension.

"I do not want to be decreed an enemy of the state."
"We have to save that child!"

Also: Disguise.

After he sacrifices his reputation he can get himself changed magically by a friend, say Polymorph any object to change his features, its a permanent change after all, when people see the party they congratulate them for getting rid of that "treacherous scum" and taking the high road.

So he is a saint, he can see the hatred the people have for the old him but the rest of the party doesn't suffer but he has exposure to what the people think they know about him

[Callista]

An ex-villain, someone who had made contracts with demons, is trying to reform himself. But a powerful demon wants to return him to his evil ways. In order to prevent the would-be reformer from being possessed and to save his soul, your barbarian can choose to take the demon into his own body.

The demon's presence is suppressed by a divine power which grants the barbarian sainthood. Or perhaps the powers of the template are actually being channeled from the demon itself. Either way, the demon is there, waiting for a chance to get free and wreak havoc with the barbarian's strength. (It could become interesting if there's a % chance of the demon getting free each time the barbarian rages.)I like this, but what's to say the character won't simply find himself a continuous Protection from Evil effect (there's an armor enhancement that does it) and trap the demon forever (negating the drawback)? Additionally: What happens if the character is killed? Does the demon get freed? If so, then the character would probably make it priority one to find a way to get rid of the demon, because he's going to die eventually and he doesn't want to be a ticking time bomb. So you'll end up with more of a "get rid of this demon" arc than having a character who's got this demon to deal with pretty much permanently.

Of course, if the demon is banished or destroyed when the character is killed, then he'll simply off himself and pay for a True Resurrection.

On the other hand, if True Resurrection is not possible and he had only Raise Dead, then this might be an appropriate sacrifice--one character level (and a deliberate though temporary death) for the chance to banish a powerful demon--a good trade-off, if you're Good-aligned. Setting it up like that would help game balance somewhat, because he'd only be the equivalent of one level ahead, and that wouldn't be much of an issue. On the other hand, it doesn't let him die in battle... not exactly the sort of thing a barbarian would find glorious... then again, that may make it more of a sacrifice. (Depends on what the player finds fun, I guess!)

[Claudius Maximus]

I like this, but what's to say the character won't simply find himself a continuous Protection from Evil effect (there's an armor enhancement that does it) and trap the demon forever (negating the drawback)?

The Saint template itself does that.

Not a huuuge fan of the trapped demon plot, because it seems like it might turn into a much bigger arc than I'm looking for. Same goes for dealing with a Faustian pact. Also the party is going to come right out of dealing with devils so I'd prefer to mix things up a bit.

Anyone have anything that focuses on dragons? He is a dragonborn but he never got to truly crush a diabolical dragon plot. If you can lump vampires in too then we're really talking.

[Reynard]

Tiamait experiments in creating an extremely powerful vampiric dragon?
After a few close encounters with the beast, Bauhmutt approaches the PC with an offer (the Sainthood), but asks that in order for the power to defeat the beast to be fully attained, the PC must forswear all he has and ever will have to him and his service.

Yes, spellings are probably wrong. Sue me.

[Zonugal]

Anyone have anything that focuses on dragons? He is a dragonborn but he never got to truly crush a diabolical dragon plot. If you can lump vampires in too then we're really talking.

Pull a page from Dragon Heart? Have him slay an evil dragon to its very limits but than place a spirit bond on the creature. If it ever continues to terrorize the lands he will kill himself (and thus kill the creature) but the sacrifice is that the character feels every hateful/vile desire the dragon does.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, considering his interest in vampire morality, I'd shoot for giving him a bit to try to redeem someone and his sacrifice either coming in to make it happen or his and the to-be-redeem's lose when either he or the target finds it too difficult if not impossible. Basically, a big emotional lose type of thing, fighting for someone who was almost saved. Almost.

EDIT: Options from my guru: A) "set up a quest for him to redeem a vampire...that was a former enemy of no small significance (can he sacrifice past malice rather than give in to the temptation for vengeance)"

B) "have him work towards redeeming a vampire only to have that vampire succumb to his own inner twisted workings (best played off a PC who blames himself). If he can overcome perceived failure, or even make attempts to redeem no matter the cost, that'd be a go"

[Vemynal]

an interesting idea: can anyone think of a way for him to have to become a vampire as part of his sacrifice? (you could ignore the actual template and give him the sun damage bit to balance out the saint's awesome abilities)

Like he's redeeming a vampire or something and the vampire will die unless it drinks from someone so he offers himself?

[Callista]

I don't think vampires are redeemable without special circumstances. They're Always Evil undead; and depending on how you play that, it either means they haven't got souls (the soul of the person they used to be is in the afterlife), or their souls are trapped and along for the ride, possibly corrupted along the way. So you would have to either raise the vampire, or retrieve the soul, or use powerful magic to change the vampire's alignment forcibly.

How about this one:

Have a vampire kill and turn an ally of the party (you may want to choose a vulnerable ally, a trusted friend, or just someone they really need alive). Naturally, their ally (or what's left of him) is now an evil-aligned vampire. If they face him, they will eventually have to kill him; but it should be possible to cast a resurrection spell on him and restore him to his true self... only his soul doesn't want to come back. Turns out he's been corrupted by his stint as a vampire; and the party has to travel to an evil-aligned plane to convince the soul to come back. This works best if you choose someone whose alignment wasn't strongly good-aligned to begin with--a child, for example. (Bonus: Vampire children are ridiculously creepy...)

[hamishspence]

I don't think vampires are redeemable without special circumstances. They're Always Evil undead; and depending on how you play that, it either means they haven't got souls (the soul of the person they used to be is in the afterlife), or their souls are trapped and along for the ride, possibly corrupted along the way. So you would have to either raise the vampire, or retrieve the soul, or use powerful magic to change the vampire's alignment forcibly.

Some undead always have souls- and the soul is "in charge" so to speak- despite being Always Evil- according to Complete Divine.

Others have "trapped souls" where a malign intelligence controls the body- and the soul is not in control of it.

Liches are an example of the former. I think vampires might also be- in 3.5. In earlier editions- they may have been usually soulless- and the Crimson Death was a monster believed to be the separated soul of the vampire.

That said, there is precedent for nonevil vampires who didn't have their alignment forcibly changed (Jander Sunstar, the elven vampire in Ravenloft (and some Forgotten Realms short stories).

[Trekkin]

Given the RP prowess he seems to posess, I'd tentatively suggest taking a leaf from A Clockwork Orange and creating a sort of anti-Faustian pact wherein you exploit his leniency towards necessary evil, perhaps at the climax of a mini-arc to save the practitioners of the same from overzealous Good forces, by having some powerful Good entity agree to spare their lives, and the lives of all such beings in the future, in return for a very specific oath to always punish evil as completely and as immediately as possible, ideally magically enforced.

Effectively, he's sacrificing his dearly loved ability to make judgement calls, or his capacity for mitigation; he's being forced to give up the one thing that stops his name being whispered in fear by ragamuffins stealing bread to live and effectively burning away his paternalism in holy fire. He also doesn't ever get to directly experience the good that comes of his promise, since by its terms he'd be forced to execute everyone whose safety he'd won and is therefore unable to intercede for them in the future; he's basically condemned to either violating his personal moral code or only ever going after the worst fiends imaginable that he'd eliminate anyway. He seems like the type to consider that a sufficiently great sacrifice.

Actually, having the above entity be the previous recipient of such an offer, and this passing of the torch be the mechanism whereby <<insert necessary and redeemable evil>> is saved, would wrap things up nicely.

EDIT: I realize he's chaotic, and it's probably best to leave room for the spirit of the oath to be violated while preserving its letter.

[ShriekingDrake]

I like many of the ideas posted so far . . . they are far more interesting than this simple proposal. But, one option, is to test the player's sense of the character as part of awarding the template. What I have in mind is to give the player a choice among three distinct options: save himself at the expense of the party; risk the party to acquire a powerful item; sacrifice himself to save the rest of the party. I think it could be fun building up to the scenario where our hero has to make his choice.

[Claudius Maximus]

If he wants to deal with vampire morality I'll make it possible (but of course rare) for vampires to be nonevil. It hasn't been concretely established yet so I can do that.

He's recently been failing in his attempts to redeem so if this is supposed to be a big triumphant moment I think I'd rather have him succeed in a redemption attempt.


Given the RP prowess he seems to posess, I'd tentatively suggest taking a leaf from A Clockwork Orange and creating a sort of anti-Faustian pact wherein you exploit his leniency towards necessary evil, perhaps at the climax of a mini-arc to save the practitioners of the same from overzealous Good forces, by having some powerful Good entity agree to spare their lives, and the lives of all such beings in the future, in return for a very specific oath to always punish evil as completely and as immediately as possible, ideally magically enforced.

Effectively, he's sacrificing his dearly loved ability to make judgement calls, or his capacity for mitigation; he's being forced to give up the one thing that stops his name being whispered in fear by ragamuffins stealing bread to live and effectively burning away his paternalism in holy fire. He also doesn't ever get to directly experience the good that comes of his promise, since by its terms he'd be forced to execute everyone whose safety he'd won and is therefore unable to intercede for them in the future; he's basically condemned to either violating his personal moral code or only ever going after the worst fiends imaginable that he'd eliminate anyway. He seems like the type to consider that a sufficiently great sacrifice.

Actually, having the above entity be the previous recipient of such an offer, and this passing of the torch be the mechanism whereby <<insert necessary and redeemable evil>> is saved, would wrap things up nicely.

EDIT: I realize he's chaotic, and it's probably best to leave room for the spirit of the oath to be violated while preserving its letter.

He seems to really be enjoying how he's playing the character, and I think it's a better idea to let him be at this point than force this kind of challenge.

[MammonAzrael]

I feel like part of what makes the Saint template unique (aside from it's obvious power), is that it is a gift granted from a truly exalted sacrifice. I feel like whatever benefits that the character receives from the template should be outweighed by the loss of whatever he sacrifices. Now this doesn't have to be purely mechanical, and it probably shouldn't be in this situation where it sounds like all the characters have been getting various templates/buff and everyone is pretty strong.

But from an RP perspective, if the character ever had a chance to trade his Saint template for whatever he sacrificed (with no other repercussions) I feel like he would want to do so. (Of course, unless they're in the middle of a save-the-world quest, in which case he'd be tempted but ultimately know that he needs the power of sainthood to help save the world).

What sacrifice is there in redeeming a vampire, good or evil? Frankly, I think it is hard to come up with a non-mechanical sacrifice (which would beat the point of getting the template in the first place), because we don't know what is near and dear to the character in the first place. Somehow what he has to give up must be a part of him, something he cares for greatly.

How seriously does he take his oaths to Bahamut? Perhaps he has to help Tiamat and the chromatic dragons succeed in something that seriously damages the forces of Bahamut, and is known to have down so, because he knows that somehow it will benefit the ultimate greater good in a way that cannot be explained to mitigate the distrust.

[gbprime]

I played a Sorcerer who attained the saint template in a campaign a few years ago. His sacrifice was simple enough... stop the ritual sacrifice of the infant heir to the throne by using Transposition to switch places with the infant. He didn't live through the resulting combat, and the PC's had to flee, which means his body wasn't recovered for some time, and his equipment never was.

Sacrifice in combat is very dramatic and is great storytelling, if you set it up right. Buy time against impossible odds, slay the BBEG amidst all his (sharp and pointy) minions, drain your own stats to the point of death/coma to power some spell, lots of possibilities. And you can give them whatever magic gear they need to play into it.

In the last campaign I ran, the pacifist cleric found an artifact early on that increased his caster level. But it also had one greater power... he could summon power directly from his deity, becoming a very powerful celestial spell caster, but at a cost... it breaks the creator deity's rule about divine manifesting in the world, and thus would burn his body out in a matter of hours (one per point of con). He solved a major plot line in one day of sacrifice, and is now regarded as a patron saint, albeit a dearly departed one.

[Stegyre]

Well...he's an adventurer, right? So the most precious thing he could sacrifice is...his equipment.

j/k
This. Seriously.

You want a player to really RP a sacrifice? Death is trivial, but a significant hit to the pocket book -- "You must slay the acid dragon by driving your sword of uber into its black heart; unfortunately, this will completely destroy the uber sword." -- you'll actually make the player think about whether it's worthwhile.

[Trekkin]

Given that he's a barbarian, it might work to have some sort of a test of endurance based around rescuing one of those necessarily evil beings he tries not to instantly kill. Perhaps defending a vampire child from an overzealous, paranoiac city, beating back endless waves of assailants in his defense of non-evil Evil until, days of constant combat later, he finally fails whatever save there is for sleep deprivation (I am AFB), collapses fully believing he's about to die, and rises again as a saint, at which point his saintly radiance is proof to the citizenry that they're in the wrong here.

EDIT: or many such beings. In whatever way a continuous stream of "Nope. Paladin." moments can be constructed until he finally and temporarily collapses.