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Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-02, 11:33 PM
Alright guys, I need some real help. Below I will provide a lot of information. Hopefully enough.



My dilemna: I have no clue what to do with the party. I would rather they not be simply walking and fighting forever, but I'm just not sure what to give them without railroading (too much. I figure if the tracks are wide enough it would probably be fine.) Our first session actually went by really well, but honestly I don't know why. The party went from place to place, killed some things, eventually killed an owlbear (to my complete surprise) and that was that. While everyone had fun this time, I feel like next time this won't pass (more on this below.) Now, allow me to get into specifics...

The thrill of battle: I have seen lots of fun encounters for higher level units, but among the lower levels.. Not so much. The party ended up fighting: 2 goblin warrior 1s (as in the monster manual); A constrictor snake (As in the monster manual); A medium monstrous crab (Stormwrack); a party consisting of a goblin warrior 2, 3 goblin warrior 1s, and a fossa (it's a jungle campaign, the fossa was actually just a dog with a different name); and finally an owlbear and a phantom fungus (the fact that they won this encounter was incredible; I gave it to them for fun, saying if it killed them we'd just go ahead and retcon it out.) The party's actual characters are listed below. Anyway, these battles seemed to drain the party like they should have, but it was coincidence. I expected a much larger party (see below.) One thing I'd like to do is find some encounters that will allow the party to do some of their more interesting tricks... I don't mean encounters to beat the party but rather encounters to make the most of the party.

The Quest: I just learned I have no idea how to do this bit. The previous idea, which I told the party, is like this: The bishop of the sun Monastary (tiny little church dedicated to Pelor) has been cursed fighting a fiend, and as there are no clerics capable of healing him at the temple (I did no research as to find an ingame method, honestly. It's all just fluff) he has been sent to the mainland, and now the monastary is left less defended.. Essentially they hired mercanaries to defend them, and had them of unusual backgrounds so that people wouldn't know they were under the church. Maybe it's silly. They weren't too fond of it. I can retcon this however it needs to be done. Beyond this, I need a lot of help. I don't really understand how to run an actual dungeon, or set up a side quest. Both would be nice to know.

The party: Only 3 people actually showed up to the game this time (not including myself). Their characters were:

Eormenhild
Stats wise she's a level 2 human paladin with no intention of multiclassing. I am considering giving her the Saint template if her power becomes less than those around her, as I am aware it is terribly unbalanced. Celestial Mount and Hands of the Healer apply to her character either way. As of now she just strikes people with her sword. She has taken the silvery Smite as well as Mounted combat feats. Story Wise, she is a young commoner girl who's parents were killed when she was very young. Theoretically it was bandits who did it, but if I want she and I can make the actual killers whoever we want. Running away, she found the church of Pelor, which allowed her to stay as a servant before witnessing her unusual powers (paladin calling) and training her to fight against evil. She is still only around 16 (younger than the actual player) and because of her sheltered church life is very naive about good and evil (too much stock in her ability to recognize evil, perhaps too much faith that good will prevail).

Albeurn Gorguts
Stats wise he's a level 1 Half-Ogre templated Neanderthal Psychic Warrior (god that's a mouthful). I have told him his race is called "Primeival Ogre" but he calls himself a half-ogre regardless. Part of the party's flaw is that they go by the book's fluff over my fluff generally, though not on purpose. He basically smashes things with a big cold iron club. Currently he has prevenom weapon, but this is only because he lacks the power points to get his true goal: Expansion. He has no idea what he wants past getting really big, but with his 4 int, he's unlikely to get access to many prestige classes. Fluff wise... I told him ahead of time there'd be some level of baggage for being a psychic warrior. In my campaign setting, psionics are very foreign, and refered to by the Vasharan mentioned below as the first powers, which is the only way to achieve power separate from the Gods (as apposed to magic, essentially). He seems to have forgotten this, so I guess I'll make one more attempt at reminding him. The other problem is that he wants to be a cartographer. The issue here is that he chose to be a character with 4 intelligence before telling me this. Theoretically wisdom is a crucial stat to picking up information (listen, spot, search) but a cartographer without knowledge (geography) seems a bit far fetched. With that said we still have a lot of room to work. He tends to be responsive.

"Stachemaster"
Stats wise, he's a hadozee scout/druid sort of thing. He's taken the druid alternate class feature which trades wild shape for favored enemy, monk speed, and monk AC. He plans to focus on ranged combat, using his high speed and entangle spell to keep out of enemy range. Role playing wise.. We actually have a bit done. He's a hadozee, treated as a monster in his home by humans. He taught himself how to hunt, but unlike a ranger, who learns by fighting the wilderness (generally), he learned by using the wilderness to hunt mankind. In exchange he has a distrust of humans and a somewhat reclusive nature, though he would never hurt innocents and does not blame mankind as a whole (chaotic good Alignment, I let the alignment req for druids slide.) His name "stachemaster" is a joke based on his choice of giving his character a mustache, but it's in no way going to stay his name. He's looking for something of a title right now "the _____" sort of thing. Note that he has "Craft: Pelt", and favored enemy: Human, which he intends to use to creep out other members, mostly (manpelt).


Next time around we have 3 more people coming. They are:

Cecil
Stats wise, she's a vanara Beguiler 1. She has very high int and charisma, and in turn is not much in terms of physical statistics (her incredibly low strength of 6 is sort of expected, but her con isn't too awesome either. Her dex is ok.) She has extend spell as a feat. As a character she lies. She pretends to be able to predict the future, using her beguiler illusions to trick people into thinking she can do so. All in all, more bluff less sneak, I suppose.

Still Not Named
A Warforged Dragonfire Adept 1. She has the adamantine armor feat as well as a heavy wooden shield, so she will not be using invocations in combat, but will instead use her fire breath to serve as a heavy tank unit. Fluff wise, unsure. Originally she wanted to be someone created as an act of revenge. The idea would be that warforged killed a man's people, so he made his own warforged so that he could make it suffer and get revenge on the species. This is slightly ruined because she was unaware all warforged (and not just her character) had souls, but maybe we'll make it work with some edits here and there. She plans to have been trained directly by an aspect of Bahamut (and we plan to allow her to take fivefold breath of tiamut if she ever gets to that level, renaming it fivefold breath of bahamut, given it's clearly much better.)

Unnamed character 2
Has not decided. Still a wildcard. I'm uncertain as to what this party might need: seems pretty complete to me. Perhaps a bard or a healer or something?

A Vanara Beguiler 1. She hasn't much in the way of physical ability, but her Int is 19 and her charisma is 16. She plans to focus on the illusion side of things. A warforged Dragonfire Adept 1. This one is sort of weird, in that she's taken adamantine body and a heavy wooden shield, thus ruining her chances of in combat invocations, choosing instead to focus on tanking with fire breath. The last one is a wild card. She hasn't decided yet. But anything's possible. If anyone has a suggestion for her I will pass it on. Tomb of Battle is banned because I don't really like it (it's not about weeaboo fighting or whatever, but rather that I feel it's harder to roleplay right. I don't like the "hit them to activate special ability" aspect of it at all, and I just don't think it's needed. I know this is weird coming from a guy who uses both BoED and psionics, but whatever.)

I marked in red new things that changed after first session, and crossed out things that changed. We earned literally 1700 exp somehow.. I think I'm doing it wrong. I figured I would input it into this thing, and then just give the highest number. But maybe it's a bit much.

My current plans: I don't really have too much for next session, even if it might be tomorrow. I think it might be a partial session again, with a slightly modified batch of characters. Is this a problem? I don't really think so, but maybe. It might be nice to give individuals the spotlight (via smaller groups) before dealing with the more complicated aspects of 6 people).

It has been suggested that I make the "church" a falsity, something more evil masked as a church. The issue here is that the paladin in the party in fact comes from this church. I am thinking it has been changing behind the scenes: perhaps she was unaware. I was thinking this might upset her, as it would change her character (though naivety is one of her key traits) and give her the feeling that she has no control over her own character. To this end, I am considering talking to her about the change. Would this be ok?

I have a major villain planned out from the beginning. A "Vasharan" (technically human with the half-fiend template - The idea of "human but worse" didn't appeal to me. Also, I made his species' lifespan infinite (but incapable of being revived if killed) and essentially made him the last: the last for a long time. He's an erudite who plans to essentially rebuild the world, rather than killing the Gods. In reality, all I kept was "first people, Gods killed them all." He has empathy for those around him though none of his people do (this allowed him to be undetected by detect evil, and therefor spared), and feels the Gods to be evil for never giving his people the right to choose (giving them an "always evil" alignment). Essentially, the plan was for him to attack the church. If it's an evil church, however, maybe he still can: and perhaps he might even aid the party. He, after all, would not consort with devils even if he is many ways one. This introduction I feel might work even better than having him introduced as a villain: the betrayal might properly display the villain's feelings for the Gods back on the party. Thoughts?

Anyway I'm essentially looking for any DMing advice at all. I really want to make this campaign go well: the groups is currently very excited and I'd like to keep it this way.

TalonDemonKing
2011-01-02, 11:47 PM
Theres something valuable about the church -- Thats why they keep it hidden, and thats why theres a fiend that's being fought right now.

God Fragments, Portals to Hell, a book of unsavory truths, whatever "it" is, "it" is important, and that fiend is going to get it.

Obviously you can't throw a high level fiend at a bunch of players, so have them work through agents. My suggestion would be to throw another adventuring party at them, having them masquerade as someone to help. Once the PCs let down their guard, spring an ambush. PCs should win out, but have one of the NPCs surrender to the paladin. Being lawful good, paladin, blah blah blah, He'll have to accept or lose his paladin powers.

When interrogated, have him confess about being hired by <Name> <Evil class> of <Evil deity> in a <City far away>. The 'True' calvary shows up, and will hold down the fort, and allow the players to move away from the church. They should go to the city, so feel free to ambush them with whatever you feel like while they're on the way.

Once they get to the city, <Name> is actually a noble of rather high ranking, and alot of guards under his control. It'll take some non-combat Rping/skill checks here to get alone with <Name>, so play it up. Sneaking about, going through the legals, hitting up taverns for rumors, blackmail, whatever you can manage. Once solid there, <Name> could be 'Convinced' into giving up that Indeed, he is helping out <Name2>, archfiend.

From there, its all what you want. Maybe the fiend is truly evil and is doing it for personal gain. Maybe the fiend is trying to weaken another fiend. Maybe hes trying to stop the end of the universe, because he likes the universe because thats where he keeps his stuff.

Regardless, this should give you enough to work another session in. If they like it, and you still need help, go ahead and ask us again!

LansXero
2011-01-02, 11:58 PM
DMing is actually hard, but you got the harder part covered (imho): A group thats excited about playing! :D

Aside from the quest-building; which parts did you see them enjoy the most? The social interactions? the combat? Its important to keep an eye on it and try to aim the quest in the direction of what they like and avoid putting in too much of what they dont like :P

As for the actual plot. . . Ok, so there is a church in the middle of nowhere, with a bishop that somehow was cursed by a fiend and then had to hire mercenaries. It sounds fishy, and you said your players weren`t quite swallowing it. . . so make it not true, but in a fun way! Its no church; in fact, its a fiendish cult masquerading as a church to draw in sick and empoverished to use as ritual sacrifice; the fiend attack couldve been a power play by another fiend or actually there was no fiend, it was a paladin who hurt the fiend-bishop, and is lying hurt in one of the church`s dungeons. Next session have them get attacked by night and subtly drop hints about oddly hellish sounds coming from inside the church; you see, they hired mercenaries because if they found out too much they could be dealt with, and if anyone asked where they went, they just claim those bastard (the mercenaries) ran off with the money and broke the contract.

Dunno, its a possibility, there are many. Just play along with the guesses of your players. It something seems fishy to them, maybe its a good thing that it turns out to be so. Makes them feel real smart for figuring out and gives you a hook to develop into :D.

Akal Saris
2011-01-03, 12:15 AM
If you haven't started already, consider starting to write down the names of NPCs that the players meet and the places they go. Tie them in to future adventures, like the next place that the PCs go they see a cleric of pelor who used to live at the sun temple, etc. Basically, work to make sure that PCs can remember people and places in your world, and it will go a long way to making the PCs interested in changing that world.

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 02:27 AM
You're doing fine so far---what's good is that you're actually concerned about their fun.

Only fear that you're railroading them if there is only absolutely one way to deal with a threat. Maybe you can mention only one way of doing it, but if they're creative enough to find a different way, then reward it. I typically mention at least two, may be three ways.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-03, 07:20 PM
You guys are awesome, thank you so much for your responses.

I hadn't really thought about making the church something of a cover up for something else. The more I read it the more I like the idea, actually. I will edit my first post to reflect on this.

LansXero
2011-01-03, 07:41 PM
Oh and also. . . you said Church of Pelor?

Obligatory read:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate

As for the paladin's case, does she come from this very monastery? Maybe the smaller branches of the church are legit, but the higher hierarchy is rotten (devils or demons, one of them, is I think very big on corrupting and twisting good peoplez). If she comes from the same monastery then perhaps its best you talk about it with the player as to how it would develop, without spoiling too much. It will bring a different angle to the session, knowing something the rest of the party dont and having to keep it that way, which could be fun and good :D

Raum
2011-01-03, 08:18 PM
You've posted what the PCs are but have they told you who they are? In other words, have they given you background information? PC histories are excellent places to delve in for adventure ideas. Just use a light hand when building the adventure...giving an interesting MacGuffin to a PC's relative is cool...killing them without giving the PC a chance to change things isn't.

If you don't have backgrounds, the next place to look is at their character sheets. All those skills / powers / abilities they spent lots of points on? Those are what they expect / want to use in game play. So build encounters where stealth / tracking / whatever is central to a scene or two.

Finally you have NPCs. What are their goals? How will the PCs interact with those goals? Do remember, not all NPCs will agree with each other. A web of conflicting goals with the PCs caught in the middle can be lots of fun. :)

Good luck!

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-03, 09:11 PM
Obligatory read:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate

I will certainly have to read this, and will report to the thread when I have, to see what I've learned.


You've posted what the PCs are but have they told you who they are? In other words, have they given you background information? PC histories are excellent places to delve in for adventure ideas.

Whoops. See, when I began this I only intended to ask for technical help, like designing a difficult encounter or something of that sort. As I started writing I realized there was way more I wanted feedback for, but I didn't edit the character section to match my new goals. I will get to this now.


Finally you have NPCs. What are their goals? How will the PCs interact with those goals? Do remember, not all NPCs will agree with each other. A web of conflicting goals with the PCs caught in the middle can be lots of fun. :)

So, as I looked around I have quite a few ideas for NPCs which I would love to see utilized. But now it strikes me that I'm uncertain how to introduce one! Part of the issue for me is that 6 people is a lot of people for a party to me, and adding an NPC with combat capabilities feels like it would clutter things. Would it? Perhaps there's something else I can do to this.

Anyway, I've updated the first post again. Well, maybe not. I will do it now; hopefully no one will post in that time.

Raum
2011-01-03, 10:02 PM
So, as I looked around I have quite a few ideas for NPCs which I would love to see utilized. But now it strikes me that I'm uncertain how to introduce one! Part of the issue for me is that 6 people is a lot of people for a party to me, and adding an NPC with combat capabilities feels like it would clutter things. Would it? Perhaps there's something else I can do to this.Meh. Adding an NPC to the party so you can lead them around is hamfisted at best...and can be far worse.

Take your NPCs goals and start comparing them to the PCs backgrounds, goals, and characters. Look for point of congruence and use those to involve the PCs.

Looking back at your edits, you have a paladin who probably has a thing about bandits...which of your NPCs would profit from or use bandits to further their goals? You also have a psion using unusual / strange / forbidden power - are there any NPCs who'd want to study it? Use it? Or even destroy the wielder? The cartographer 'profession' is pure gold if you can work it in. It's a reason for him to want to investigate any strange, unusual, or simply new areas. Finally you have an 'outsider' who keeps trophies of his kills...even from intelligent beings. Surely you have some NPCs who may object! For even more fun, toss in a few who want to use him...or copy him and stick him with the blame.

You probably have more details you can pull out and use also. And you have the same sort of analysis to do on the other PCs...

Have fun!

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-03, 11:00 PM
Meh. Adding an NPC to the party so you can lead them around is hamfisted at best...and can be far worse.

Take your NPCs goals and start comparing them to the PCs backgrounds, goals, and characters. Look for point of congruence and use those to involve the PCs.

Looking back at your edits, you have a paladin who probably has a thing about bandits...which of your NPCs would profit from or use bandits to further their goals? You also have a psion using unusual / strange / forbidden power - are there any NPCs who'd want to study it? Use it? Or even destroy the wielder? The cartographer 'profession' is pure gold if you can work it in. It's a reason for him to want to investigate any strange, unusual, or simply new areas. Finally you have an 'outsider' who keeps trophies of his kills...even from intelligent beings. Surely you have some NPCs who may object! For even more fun, toss in a few who want to use him...or copy him and stick him with the blame.

You probably have more details you can pull out and use also. And you have the same sort of analysis to do on the other PCs...

Have fun!

Never really thought of it as leading, but that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.

I really like these suggestions you have given. I suppose the flip side would also be true, that those who would wish to work positively with the party could also be partly determined by the group? It seems like a good thought.

Jornophelanthas
2011-01-04, 07:01 AM
You have six player characters of at least five different races. This can be both an opportunity and a threat.

Each character needs an elaborate backstory to explain where they came from, what their place in the world is, and what the race's place in the world is.
The opportunity is that you can use the backstories the players come up with to use to build your world.
The threat is that you are the one who must make this work, and some of the backstories the players give you could be incompatible with each other, or with the plot you want to run.
(Personally, I don't like adventuring parties being exotic zoos, but that's just me.)

Another piece of general advice: Do not retcon in front of the players. It tends to break their immersion and suspension of disbelief. Don't run encounters like the one with the owlbear ("If you lose, it never happened"); players should be genuinely afraid for their characters' lives if things get tense. Don't ask for a player's permission to change a PC backstory unless as a last resort. As the DM, you should pretend to be omniscient towards your players as far as your gameworld is concerned (even if you're not).

Instead, work behind the scenes to write and rewrite plot, setting and NPCs' agendas or true natures, and spring this on the players as a dramatic revelation at an appropriate time. If this clashes with a player's backstory, just adjust it slightly. (e.g. "Well, you honestly believed your family was killed by bandits. But now you learn they weren't bandits, but cultists/assassins/undead/whathaveyou," or "The priests who raised you to be a paladin was a noble soul, but none of them knew about the high priest's secret ritual chamber in the basement.")

In short, do not ask your players for permission to surprise them. If you do, it ruins the surprise. And players want to be surprised or challenged by plot, encounters or whatever.

Lord Loss
2011-01-04, 08:13 AM
To begin with, a few links that help beginning DMs:

Adventure Buidling Advice:

Wolfgang Baur's Adventure Builder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ab)

Vicious Venues (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/vv)

Steal This Hook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sh)

Save My Game (tidbits of Advenutre Advice) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sg)

Now that that's done, allow me to give my personal advice. This is more general DM advice, but here are a few common mistakes:

Don't Sweat the details: Create a general structure for your plot (I particularily like Wolfgang Baur's non-linear adventure planification method), but expect the players to go more off track than a blind horse at a NASCAR race. For instance, here's how my adventure was planned two days ago: The PCs either defend the Prince and stop the kidnappers, or he gets captured and they must track him. Here's what happened: The PCs end up locked in a dungeon a few kilometeres away from the castle and he is about to be eaten by a wererat. Meanwhile, a doppleganger has replaced the real king. Plot-wise (and for designing encounters), come up with a general outline, make some of the details concrete, but improv the rest.

Go with the flow: When (not if, when) your plot goes in a completely other direction than you anticipated, don't fight it, go with the flow. So the PCs came up with the completely wrong conclusion about a set of clues: maybe they're actually right and the cult worships not a demon but a dragon from the Underdark. Perhaps they consulted the wrong sage, or ignored a clue,or don't understand the blatantly obvious prophecy that's been thrown at them. Take this detail and turn it to the advantage of the players (not their characters. The characters may get screwed over, as long as the players are enjoying themselves). Fabricate new clues on the spot, embrace the new direction the adventure has taken, give them a quest to a wiseman that will interpret the prophecy for them, etc.

Don't be afraid to fudge: Don't be afriad to "miscalculate" attacks, saving throws and damage rolls in the favor of both the PCs and enemies as long as it a) doesn't harm the players much more than the other roll would have. b) doesn't make the PCs feel immortal c) does improve their enjoyement of the game. Don't fudge to save a BBEG that was "supposed to survive". If they foiled your plans, they deserve their victory and shouldn't be railroaded just to conserve your plot. Perhaps the villain's wife or right-hand man takes over, or he gets magically ressurected by his minions. Or maybe it's time to scrap that plot and go with another idea.

Say yes!: If a PC asks an unexpected question, for example, is there a wizard's guild in town, I'd like to go exploring the nearby swamp, can I join the local theives guild, can we participate in the festival's wrestling tournament, etc., don't fight the players. They,re giving you a direction for the plot, giving you a chance to please them without needing to guess what they want to do. They're doing you a huge favor and telling you exactly what direction they want the plot to go. Perhaps the Black Creed the players have been tracking wants to assasinate one of the wrestlers, for one reason or another, or perhaps one of their secret shrines lies in the swamp. Maybe they havespies hidden in the thieves guild, or have turned the guild's mages into undead horrors whilst stealing terrible lore that will let them ressurect their fallen god.


Hope it helps, L.L

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-04, 08:13 AM
You have six player characters of at least five different races. This can be both an opportunity and a threat.

Each character needs an elaborate backstory to explain where they came from, what their place in the world is, and what the race's place in the world is.
The opportunity is that you can use the backstories the players come up with to use to build your world.
The threat is that you are the one who must make this work, and some of the backstories the players give you could be incompatible with each other, or with the plot you want to run.
(Personally, I don't like adventuring parties being exotic zoos, but that's just me.)

Another piece of general advice: Do not retcon in front of the players. It tends to break their immersion and suspension of disbelief. Don't run encounters like the one with the owlbear ("If you lose, it never happened"); players should be genuinely afraid for their characters' lives if things get tense. Don't ask for a player's permission to change a PC backstory unless as a last resort. As the DM, you should pretend to be omniscient towards your players as far as your gameworld is concerned (even if you're not).

Instead, work behind the scenes to write and rewrite plot, setting and NPCs' agendas or true natures, and spring this on the players as a dramatic revelation at an appropriate time. If this clashes with a player's backstory, just adjust it slightly. (e.g. "Well, you honestly believed your family was killed by bandits. But now you learn they weren't bandits, but cultists/assassins/undead/whathaveyou," or "The priests who raised you to be a paladin was a noble soul, but none of them knew about the high priest's secret ritual chamber in the basement.")

In short, do not ask your players for permission to surprise them. If you do, it ruins the surprise. And players want to be surprised or challenged by plot, encounters or whatever.

Thank you for the advice. To be fair, the owlbear thing was sort of joke. I wholly expected the party to die and it was past session time anyway. I'll be certain not to do it again. The idea of not retconning to them hadn't occured to me. I will keep it in mind.

So, campaign part 2 is tomorrow. Hopefully it will be good.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-04, 08:35 AM
I second every thing Lord Loss said.

When you Dm, you have to remember that you, like all your players, is contributing to a communal story that must be shaped not only by the Dm, but also by the players.

If your players decide to trainwreck your plot, reflect on why they did so. If it's because they thought the present plot was boring, maybe try adjusting further plots so they are more suited to their playing style. If it's just because they didn't get the clue, then you can always have the plot catch up to them (and even better, make sure there are consequences to them missing the clues, like the village they were in being destroyed).

Also, you have a party of 6 characters. Don't be afraid to send 2 or 3 times the normal amount of mooks their way. And when you start sending goblins/orcs/whatever in the 5s or 6s all the time, why not send a few casters with them? Grease, Evard's Black Tentacles and many other spells that your PC's love are just as fun against them. Or a bard? Your goblins may not be able to hit the broadside of a barn, but when buffed and hitting debuffed opponents, then the odds start to even out.

The only thing you have to remember (if you want to avoid too much party death) is that more PC means they can fight higher CRs, but not necessarily higher CRed monsters.

Psyx
2011-01-04, 08:43 AM
Never retcon anything is good advice.

If you think something might be too hard, then make it easier or be sure that the party can handle the consequences.

Skaven
2011-01-04, 08:47 AM
Here is the system I use.

Basics:

1, Have a notebook on hand to write down things like NPC names and where they appeared.

2, Have a list of generic NPC names to use and a list of tavern names.

3, Have a 'cheatsheet' of minor plots to use if you draw a blank or finish an adventure early or get a bit stuck.

Examples include:

Missing child
Goblin raid on town
Monster seen in area
Bodies found killed and looted in woods
Farmer and family went missing
Noble/Wealthy Merchant's heirloom necklace stolen

etc, you get the idea. As i'm running, I constantly add little bits to each one of these as I get ideas to expand them.

I.e

Missing child: + commoner saw child near sewer drain. + fresh scratchmarks can be seen on drain (DC10 search)

Goblin raid on town: + gather information DC10 local forester tells of totem paint he found on tree he cut. +Knowledge Religion DC15 this was a warding marker to keep away evil spirits.

etc. These little things give you something to fall back on in times of need, I would never go into an adventure without a cheatsheet for downtime like this. Some of them bloom into full on plots.

4, Remember that everyone is there to have fun.. let the players pull off some silly stunts like in the movies. Try and run to their style.. if they're uncomfortable with too much roleplaying, try and use descriptive roleplaying instead.

5, Don't get married to your main plot. The players WILL smash pre-conceived notions to the ground.

6, Expanding from 5, write the main plot loosely. Keep it subject to change.. if the players kill a certain badguy or smash a certain holy relic that your plot is hanging on, it can lead to upset.

7, Ask your players a little bit about their charaters. Ask them if there is anything they want to do or want to happen to their characters. These can make great plots. A Paladin might want to destroy a certain vampire for example.. or perhaps your rogue might want their character to get bit by a werecreature and undergo some sort of struggle to control the affliction as he advances in levels. These little things really help to make adventures something to remember.

Hope this helps.

Keinnicht
2011-01-04, 01:33 PM
I've never had much trouble with railroading. Players seem to generally cooperate with the mission you give them. If they don't, just think of another.

Lord Loss
2011-01-05, 05:00 PM
Another piece of advice is to have all the statistics you may need at hand and easy to find. Write down page numbers on a piece of note-paper and prepare templated/class-leveled monsters you will need on hand. Keeping some random encounter tables and sample plot hooks ready is also a brilliant idea (as suggested by Skraven).

Pronounceable
2011-01-05, 07:31 PM
Good artists copy, great artists steal. Find some novel/game/story/movie they wouldn't know and run it with elves and dwarves (or whatever) tacked on. Especially a long quest chain from some obscure MMORPG would work well.

Also act like you know what you're doing. That's the most important part.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-16, 04:50 AM
Hi everyone, just had another session (another two sessions, but there are only a couple things worth mentioning.

- We've yet to have everyone show up at once still! But we have had our dragonfire Adept enter in, as well as our mystery person, who chose to be a cleric (I would normally not allow a tier 1 class, but she has no idea how to play a cleric and is going full healer. And she insisted on being a half-elf. So there's no issue here really.) Her name is Douchetta and as the name implies she is terrible. She found a kobold, worshiper of Tiamut, and responded by shooting [the unarmed] kobold with her crossbow, killing him instantly. She revealed her goal to be to kill all worshipers of other gods, specifically dragons. Our dragonfire adept is pretty freaked out.

The half-ogre acts the most heroic, to everyone's surprise. He reached level two, and just used expansion for the first time (the 3d8 damage he deals with his cold iron greatclub makes him really happy.) He meant to be true neutral, in the end he's neutral good, I'd say. When ogres were demanding tribute from a small town, he felt morally responsible, and insisted to the party that they defend those who needed them. I'm really starting to like his character, actually, though he's been almost killed twice already.

Our dragonfire adept doesn't talk much. I'll wait for her to give me more personality later.

Our hadozee, his character is a wild hermit type, killing humans in the jungle to survive, a scout/druid, master of nature, etc etc, chaotic good. Turns out he's the sole voice of reason in the campaign. While the half-ogre is good, he's too stupid to be too logical, and the cleric is literally verging on insane.

Part of the imbalance is because the paladin has been missing sessions. I based an entire dungeon on her being there (the temple of Pelor is attacked. The special item they are protecting? The party needs to go retrieve it and run. Simple as that. But with no paladin something seems off.) More so, the party just isn't quite sane without her there to balance people's personalities. This is going to be pretty crazy.

MeeposFire
2011-01-16, 05:16 AM
I've never had much trouble with railroading. Players seem to generally cooperate with the mission you give them. If they don't, just think of another.

Or at least make the illusion of a choice. One time I had an adventure group in an adventure that I had to create in just over an hour (4e game so it was certainly possible). I gave them a choice to head to an ancient ruin or to try to find a lost caravan in a forest. They chose the caravan and were of course happy that they got to choose which adventure they were going to complete. What they did not know at the time was that I had the same general encounter planned (group of goblins attack) with just different flavor details such as saving the caravan or a group of goblin guards in front of their home. This allowed me to give the illusion of choice since they chose the adventure and I did not force anything, but I still only had to make one (essentially) encounter. Not something you do all the time (they may catch on eventually if you do it too much) but it can be an effective tool in your arsenal.

Also look to very good shows/movies that your players do not know well for ideas. Gargoyles is a good example. If you can create a Xanatos gambit your players will be very impressed I assure you (if you do not know the term a Xanatos Gambit is when the villain creates a plan where even if they lose a fight they still gain a victory in another area. In other words even if I lose I still win!).

a_humble_lich
2011-01-16, 05:22 AM
I've never had much trouble with railroading. Players seem to generally cooperate with the mission you give them. If they don't, just think of another.

This can backfire sometimes. I was in a game of modern psychics. The party learned there was a nuclear bomb hidden in the city. Instead of trying to find it they fled the city and spent the session using their powers to cheat at poker.

Hyudra
2011-01-16, 10:34 AM
Douchetta, really?

What I might suggest, given the chaotic nature of the party, is to turn the setting into a battlefield. If there's fights and chaos everywhere, with much competition, backstabbing and rivalry between factions, then it's almost guaranteed that the players will find something to do, or that you'll be able to direct them where you want.

A city that's on fire and filled with rioters is little different from a dungeon in general scope, but it's rather hard to avoid it as a plot when you're smack dab in the middle of it. Makes for naturally intense and fast paced adventuring, discourages dawdling and offers allowances for how/when PCs get separated from one another.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-18, 09:26 PM
Also look to very good shows/movies that your players do not know well for ideas. Gargoyles is a good example. If you can create a Xanatos gambit your players will be very impressed I assure you (if you do not know the term a Xanatos Gambit is when the villain creates a plan where even if they lose a fight they still gain a victory in another area. In other words even if I lose I still win!).

Thank you for the advice here. I am now searching frantically for some series to look into. I really want to introduce the BBEG I created for the campaign, but I'm not really sure how. Maybe I need to give him some sort of officer or something. These things are harder than I realized.

The Xanatos Gambit is a particularly nice idea as well.


Douchetta, really?

What I might suggest, given the chaotic nature of the party, is to turn the setting into a battlefield. If there's fights and chaos everywhere, with much competition, backstabbing and rivalry between factions, then it's almost guaranteed that the players will find something to do, or that you'll be able to direct them where you want.

A city that's on fire and filled with rioters is little different from a dungeon in general scope, but it's rather hard to avoid it as a plot when you're smack dab in the middle of it. Makes for naturally intense and fast paced adventuring, discourages dawdling and offers allowances for how/when PCs get separated from one another.

I've definitely considered this. Recently, the party saved a town from a trio of ogres (who regularly entered to demand tribute.) Now they are given free passage to the mainland, separated more by river than anything else. I warned them that the world beyond the river is incredibly dangerous... I am thinking of filling it with less monsters and more aberrations and magical beasts. More so, I want the people in the more Southern Land to possess a distrust of the divine. Not in its effectiveness, but in its integrity. The towns become unfriendly to this cleric (did I mention Douchetta openly keeps a tally on her arm of the "heretics" she's killed? She's a monster, but at least she's trying so I don't want to punish her really, it's a huge step up) and the paladin. The party has to fight for survival here, in constant combat, without a real safe place.

woodenbandman
2011-01-18, 10:46 PM
that 'save my game' column has moments where it's good, but at times it's also not very credible (AC 28 and a +21 to hit at level 12 is apparantly OP now?)

Ragitsu
2011-01-19, 06:49 AM
It IS hard for a lot of us, but...when it pays off, it REALLY pays off!

hewhosaysfish
2011-01-19, 07:59 AM
If you are wanting to go with the whole "church is secretly evil" thing, one way to reconcile it with the paladin being raised by that church would be to make it the result of a recent switch.
Suppose some of the higher-ranking priests have been kidnapped/assassinated and replaced with dopplegangers. Or dominated by a mind-flayer. (Or possessed by a demon, I guess, but fiends are kind of a cliche for use with the false-church-thing.)
This still allows the paladin to have been raised by good and kind people while discovering they've been duped by evil forces. It also adds an objective to rescue/avenge the priest(s) as well as thwarting the bad guys.