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Jsuelieta
2011-01-03, 06:03 AM
Howdy folks, my first time posting around here so bear with me a bit.

Here's the situation: Group of friends has got a 3.5 campaign going and one of them was talked into being a ninja and is now complaining about being a glass cannon without a cannonball, meaning he can't see any possible way to make use of the ninja class due to absurdly low AC and the less-than-open way Sudden Strike is written in Complete Adventurer. I suggested a ninja that shoots for the following at level 20:

Improved Initiative
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (Kukri)
Improved Criticals (Kukri)

Now, I'm no expert on 3.5 rules, or anything for that matter, so I can only call things like I read them. It seems like that particular setup will take a nice chunk out of a target before it even gets to act, but there are questions here.

Question 1a: In regards to the ability Ghost Step, does the invisibility effect fade on attack, or after it's listed one-round duration?

Question 1b: If it does fade, but the ninja makes a full attack beforehand, do all of the attacks get Sudden Strike?

Question 2: This applies to other similar abilities, but is Sudden Strike damage doubled with a crit?

Question 3: Assuming a minimum +5 dex modifier and two Kukri of Speed, is it possible (forget probable, I just want possible) to achieve 10 Sudden Strike hits if not actually getting the first strike in combat for 100d6 damage?

Question 4: Aside from Bracers of Protection, is there some way to improve the survivability of a ninja since their AC seems to be limited to what their dex and wis bonuses can provide?

I'd greatly appreciate any kind of improvements that could be made to such a character, or if ninjas, as written, really are trash as he claims.

FelixG
2011-01-03, 06:13 AM
Ninjas are trash.

He is right on that claim :smallbiggrin:

For survivability I would have him get robes that go in the armor slot but dont provide any armor that will interfere with his abilities, then on those robes/cloak/coat ect you have an enchanter dump enhancements on it, I would get as high of a miss chance as possible.

When I played a Ninja (big mistake) i got a dimension door item that made it a bit more fun as I had even more mobility, might try that too?

Thats about all the help I can be

Yora
2011-01-03, 06:40 AM
At least in this forum, everyone seems to agree that the Ninja class is crap.

Also, lots of people say the best way to play a ninja is to make a Swordsage from Tome of Battle. They can do all the stuff a ninja should be able to, and it's apparently a well balanced and good class.

If that's not an option for the group, a rogue/monk or rogue/psion might still do a better job than the ninja class.

Vangor
2011-01-03, 06:50 AM
Question 1a: In regards to the ability Ghost Step, does the invisibility effect fade on attack, or after it's listed one-round duration?

You will remain invisible for the duration. Ghost step grants the invisible condition, not the spell invisibility. Invisibility as the spell has the additional criteria of removing the invisible condition upon any attack.


Question 1b: If it does fade, but the ninja makes a full attack beforehand, do all of the attacks get Sudden Strike?

If this did fade, the first attack cancels the effects, but the character needs to act in order to no longer be flat-footed against an opponent they were unaware of.


Question 2: This applies to other similar abilities, but is Sudden Strike damage doubled with a crit?

Forget. I don't believe so, however, but this is not explicitly mentioned in the sudden strike description.


Question 3: Assuming a minimum +5 dex modifier and two Kukri of Speed, is it possible (forget probable, I just want possible) to achieve 10 Sudden Strike hits if not actually getting the first strike in combat for 100d6 damage?

You'd have three iterative, an off-hand, two bonus off-hand, and a speed bonus for each weapon attack, meaning eight attacks I believe. No matter the amount of attacks, if you can land them they're all sudden strikes until the opponent who is flat-footed to you can react to you, meaning takes their next action.

But, ninjas are pretty awful. The amount of ki needs to be significantly changed, certainly not (lvl+wis)/2, perhaps lvl+2(wis). As well, ki dodge needs to come earlier, and you should be able to invest further ki to ki dodge to increase miss chance. Swordsages with predominantly Shadow Hand maneuvers/stances can do far better and are more enjoyable.

Telok
2011-01-03, 07:04 AM
1a. It drops after the attack.
1b. Yes.
2. No
3. Probably, I didn't look at the numbers.
4. Don't tank.

Seriously, our group's "that guy" is either a ninja or a sorcerer (drow and female as often as possible too), so I've seen a lot of bad ninja action and sad ninja deaths. Most recently yesterday. The level 6 female gnome ninja was taken down by two level 3 monk mooks. Ninja are not tanks.

It's a common misconception that you have to use your special class feature every round in order to contribute to an encounter. Casters don't have to cast spells every round, charge builds don't have to charge every round, and the ninja doesn't have to max his sudden strike every round. That way lies wasting resources and 15 minute adventuring days.

As with real ninjas I suggest using trickery, deception, and stealth to kill high value targets like enemy wizards and clerics. I would look to a Keen, Lucky, Spell Storing, Kukri instead of the Speed enchantment. This allows Boots of Speed to replace the Improved Critical feat. Think about buying a Eversmoking Bottle and ranks in Listen too.

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 07:56 AM
The plain rogue can actually be a ninja better than the ninja class. The swordsage can do the mystical techniques associated with ninja in pop culture.

Two-Weapon Fighting is best done with lots of bonus damage, which the swordsage can apply (moreso if you have a rogue/swordsage character).

umbrapolaris
2011-01-03, 10:27 AM
ninja are supposed to be stealthy infiltrator and assassin, hiding , killing, re-hiding.

like rogues, they are not tank or melee fighter, in a party they are the finisher, the fighter/wizard deals massive damage to a target, the ninja "finish him..."

and a ninja who doesn't use poisons, is not a ninja ^^

Curmudgeon
2011-01-03, 11:03 AM
You can get most of the Ninja "feel" with a 2-level Monk dip including the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil, the Ascetic Rogue feat, and a lot of Rogue levels.

This will give you:

full sneak attack progression, which is better than sudden strike
the ability to turn invisible every 3rd round, which is better than the limited daily uses of Ghost Step
unarmed strike that keeps getting better with your Rogue levels ─ something the Ninja lacks
evasion (light or no armor) at character level 4 instead of Ninja 12 (no armor only)

When your character budget permits, add a Monk's Belt and you'll get the AC Bonus feature, plus an improvement in unarmed damage. If you want Poison Use, the Master Of Poisons feat (Drow of the Underdark) supplies that, plus speeds your application of poison to weapons faster (swift action, provoking no AoOs) than Improved Poison Use (move action) at Ninja 9.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-03, 01:35 PM
1a. It drops after the attack.
1b. Yes.
2. No
3. Probably, I didn't look at the numbers.
4. Don't tank.

Seriously, our group's "that guy" is either a ninja or a sorcerer (drow and female as often as possible too), so I've seen a lot of bad ninja action and sad ninja deaths. Most recently yesterday. The level 6 female gnome ninja was taken down by two level 3 monk mooks. Ninja are not tanks.

It's a common misconception that you have to use your special class feature every round in order to contribute to an encounter. Casters don't have to cast spells every round, charge builds don't have to charge every round, and the ninja doesn't have to max his sudden strike every round. That way lies wasting resources and 15 minute adventuring days.

As with real ninjas I suggest using trickery, deception, and stealth to kill high value targets like enemy wizards and clerics. I would look to a Keen, Lucky, Spell Storing, Kukri instead of the Speed enchantment. This allows Boots of Speed to replace the Improved Critical feat. Think about buying a Eversmoking Bottle and ranks in Listen too.

No, the misconception is that Ghost step fades afte attack. :smallwink:
This might be why people don't feel highly of the class.
It is closer to Swift Improved Invisibility, not Swift Invisibility: you get it for the full rd regardless of what you do (can't break it). Basically Invisibility the condition (like an invisible stalker).

FMArthur
2011-01-03, 02:22 PM
Rather than replacing it entirely with Swordsage levels, I think Ninja actually benefits pretty greatly from a short Swordsage dip. Cloak of Shadows is worth getting at least Martial Study for, since it is very similar to having a 1/encounter Ghost Step to use before having to dip into the ki pool. I wouldn't stay for more than 3 levels if your intent was to still be a CA Ninja in battle style, since Assassin's stance doesn't scale for increasing precision damage like Ninja levels would.

Also, Ninja is almost strictly better than a Rogue if you're trying to Sneak Attack with ranged attacks, since Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack are identical for that particular strategy.

So it's not totally useless with careful character construction.

ryzouken
2011-01-03, 02:29 PM
Maybe point him toward the Rokugan supplement which has a ninja that doesn't totally suck...

Full Sneak Attack, Full Base Attack, and neat movement and initiative bumps make the Ninja an excellent class up until about 8th level, which is when you prestige out.

Person_Man
2011-01-03, 02:52 PM
The Complete Adventurer Ninja is indeed garbage. In addition to the Swordsage, you might want to look at the Ninja Spy Prestige Class from Oriental Adventures, which is moderately good.

In answer to your questions, Ghost Step grants Invisibility for 1 round. No matter what the Ninja does (attack, move, etc) he stays Invisible for 1 round. Thus he gets +2 to attack enemies, and he ignores enemies' Dexterity bonus, which means the Ninja applies Sudden Strike bonus damage against them. UNLESS those enemies can See Invisibility or otherwise ignore or bypass Invisibility.

Bonus dice of damage from ANY source are never multiplied. (By a critical hit or anything else, like a lance). This includes bonus dice from magic weapons, Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, spells, etc. Only the base weapon dice plus discreet damage bonuses (Strength bonus, Smite Evil, Power Attack, etc) are multiplied.

I'm sure I could put together a build that got 100d6 damage per round a variety of ways. But keep in mind that's only an average of 350 damage (3.5 average per die, times 100). Power Attack with a two handed weapon at level 20 is +40 damage per attack, and can be multiplied up to +100 or more pretty easily. I've seen numbers in the thousands or higher.

AC is only one component of defense. There's also battlefield control, miss chance, saving throws, etc. What books are allowed for your campaign?

true_shinken
2011-01-03, 05:11 PM
CA Ninja is pretty good on Wis synergy builds.
Take Intuitive Attack and dip Shiba Protector.
You now add Wisdom to attacks twice and to damage. Martial Stalker should help, since this is pretty feat intensive.
Of course, a Swordsage can do this as well, but the Ninja benefits more from Wisdom synergy and full-attacks more often.
For more Wisdom synergy, check the Red Avenger from Sword & Fist. You become nearly SAD with this combo.

John Campbell
2011-01-03, 05:39 PM
We had a Ninja in our last campaign for a while. I was playing a mostly-Rogue, and the Ninja kept getting really frustrated because anything he could do, I could do better. This got brought into stark relief when I used him as a flanking buddy, which enabled my Sneak Attack, but not his Sudden Strike.

He ended up getting the DM to kill his character off so he could play a Sorcerer instead.

Jsuelieta
2011-01-04, 12:59 AM
AC is only one component of defense. There's also battlefield control, miss chance, saving throws, etc. What books are allowed for your campaign?

I believe the DM has us using pretty much any official WotC 3.5 sourcebook or any WotC we can convert from 3.0 if we're willing to put in the legwork for it. Now, the sad thing is that this same ninja was the only one doing damage in the first encounter we had with skeletons, one person was a caster with few spells, one was a rogue with daggers and I'm a bard that was goofy and picked a whip as my weapon.

I appreciate all the feedback folks, I gave it to him and he's working with the DM to get himself to be a little less lame. :smallsmile:

JaronK
2011-01-04, 04:43 AM
The CA Ninja is indeed very weak. Factotums and Swordsages do the ninja concept much better, and even Rogues are better at it. It's just a very weak class. Either the DM will need to give him specific useful gear to make up for things, or he might want to consider playing a better ninja class. Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Variant Swordsage X is a great build for this.

JaronK

Godskook
2011-01-04, 05:02 AM
I suggested a ninja that shoots for the following at level 20:

Improved Initiative
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (Kukri)
Improved Criticals (Kukri)

Everything else on that list seems pretty stock-standard, but why are you suggesting Weapon Focus? Its a *REALLY* bad feat that should only really be taken as a pre-requisite to something else(which I don't see you mention).

Kaww
2011-01-04, 05:28 AM
Dragon feat - Ki smite will give the ninja +1 tier (maybe more if played well) it's quite a boost for his dmg output. Besides that I suggest clever use of magic/mundane items.