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grimbold
2011-01-03, 12:28 PM
I have a question pertaining to the wish spell.
i think i found an interesting loophole.
could i wish for a short term (like week-long) +5 inherent bonus to a stat and then later in the week (or with another wish if 2 are available then) wish for the bonus to be made permanent? Assuming i worded it correctly i see no issues.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 12:35 PM
Short term bonuses were one of the things that could be done with wishes in older editions (but back then, wish didn't cost XP).

It would only last 6 hours though And couldn't be made permanent that way.

And back then, you had to cast multiple wishes (over a period of up to a week) to raise a stat by even 1 point.

klemdakherzbag
2011-01-03, 01:08 PM
And an exponentially higher number to raise your Strength into the 18-percentiles and beyond

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 01:17 PM
In Rules Cyclopedia, it was wishes equal to the stat number- and only one point up at a time (you had to have Wis 18 to cast Wish at all)

So a wizard with Int 16, would have to cast 17 wishes in 1 week, to raise their Int to 17, and 18 wishes in one week to raise it from 17 to 18.

(Str didn't come in percentiles, though).

Aharon
2011-01-03, 01:32 PM
@Grimbold
The rules of the Wish spell do not cover your application, so it falls under the

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "

clause. You might convince your DM by citing the mechanics of casting multiple PAOs.

arguskos
2011-01-03, 01:39 PM
(Str didn't come in percentiles, though).
AD&D was famous for this, actually. :smallconfused: 18/01 to 18/00 was the range Strength came in, and above that you hit 19, which was like OMGWTFBBQ strong. Deities and demon lords and whatnot had 19+ Str.

I believe the reason was based in the way that Strength was used in Bend Bars/Lift Gates checks and similar stuff, but I might be conflating the uses.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 01:44 PM
AD&D was famous for this, actually. :smallconfused:

Rules Cyclopedia (which I was citing for those particular stat-boosting rules) isn't AD&D though- it was the most recent version of "Basic D&D".

I know Str comes in percentiles in AD&D- but not in Rules Cyclopedia.

arguskos
2011-01-03, 01:57 PM
Rules Cyclopedia (which I was citing for those particular stat-boosting rules) isn't AD&D though- it was the most recent version of "Basic D&D".

I know Str comes in percentiles in AD&D- but not in Rules Cyclopedia.
Meh. BD&D and AD&D 1st are pretty similar. The difference is small enough that most folks don't even know they are different.

And, I believe the wish increasing rules carried over into AD&D 1 or 2, I forget which honestly. I don't have my set of older rules on me, or I'd go check.

Alsoalso, I'd like to point out that OD&D didn't even HAVE wish, so none of this matters for the true old-school game. :smallamused: I just find that interesting.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:01 PM
Meh. BD&D and AD&D 1st are pretty similar. The difference is small enough that most folks don't even know they are different.

Interestingly, earlier versions of Basic, are more like AD&D than later versions (BECMI, and its successor Rules Cyclopedia).

In the Eric Holmes version of Basic, there are 5 alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE, Neutral), but in later versions, there's just Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.

arguskos
2011-01-03, 02:07 PM
Interestingly, earlier versions of Basic, are more like AD&D than later versions (BECMI, and its successor Rules Cyclopedia).

In the Eric Holmes version of Basic, there are 5 alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE, Neutral), but in later versions, there's just Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.
Late Basic attempted to get back to the prior OD&Desque roots, and so earn the name "Basic". I sincerely doubt it ever earned the title, but that's just me.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:09 PM
I thought Rules Cyclopedia was pretty good in terms of info provided for playing- especially when compared to later editions.
Much more information- all fitted into one volume- whereas later editions tended to have at least 3.

Psyren
2011-01-03, 02:11 PM
Dragging this back on topic - I would allow it, simply because there aren't many other wishes you can undo with a dispel, much less two at once.

arguskos
2011-01-03, 02:14 PM
I thought Rules Cyclopedia was pretty good in terms of info provided for playing- especially when compared to later editions.
Much more information- all fitted into one volume- whereas later editions tended to have at least 3.
Meh, it is, but that book was also fairly thick if I recall, where as OD&D can be fit into three pieces of looseleaf paper: about as basic as D&D has ever been.


Dragging this back on topic - I would allow it, simply because there aren't many other wishes you can undo with a dispel, much less two at once.
Oh right, there's a topic here. I get sidetracked sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

Concerning said wishes, I wouldn't allow it, simply because it breaks the intended use of wish as regards to stat increases. The spell is pretty clear about allowing a +1 inherent bonus per casting. Asking for a +5 in one shot, even temporarily, strikes me as attempting to game the system, which I (and wish) frown upon. Clever thought though.

Jay R
2011-01-03, 02:57 PM
Alsoalso, I'd like to point out that OD&D didn't even HAVE wish, so none of this matters for the true old-school game. :smallamused: I just find that interesting.

Unfortunately, it's also untrue. In the original three-book set, if you roll a 40-49 on the Ring table, you get a Ring of Three Wishes. The full set of rules for them, from Monsters and Treasures (the second book), were as follows:


As with any wishes, the wishes granted by the ring must be of limited power in order to maintain balance in the game. This requires the utmost discretion on the part of the referee. Typically, greedy characters will request more wishes, for example, as one of their wishes. The referee should then put that character into an endless closed time loop, moving him back to the time he first obtained the wish ring. Again, a wish for some powerful item could be fulfilled without benefit to the one wishing ("I wish for a Mirror of Life Trapping!", and the referee then places the character inside one which is all his own!). Wishes that unfortunate adventures had never happened should be granted. Clues can be given when wishes for powerful items or great treasure are made.


But you didn't get Wish in spell form until the first supplement came out -- Greyhawk, in 1976. This supplement introduced the first spells higher than 6th level, including the 7th-level Limited Wish and 9th-level Wish. The rules were:


Limited Wish: A spell which alters reality past, present, or future, but only within limited bounds. It cannot create or bring any form of treasure, for example, and only a portion of a wish might actually occur. (See Dungeons and Dragons, MONSTERS & TREASURE, page 33, Three Wishes.)

Wish: The same spell as found in a Ring of Wishes (DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS, MONSTERS & TREASURE, page 33). Using a Wish Spell, however, requires so great a conjuration that the user will he unable to do anything further magically for from 2-8 days.

arguskos
2011-01-03, 03:09 PM
Unfortunately, it's also untrue. In the original three-book set, if you roll a 40-49 on the Ring table, you get a Ring of Three Wishes. The full set of rules for them, from Monsters and Treasures (the second book), were as follows:
I meant the spell wish. I know about the Ring of Three Wishes, but players couldn't ask for a wish via magic, like this thread discusses. :smallsmile:

And I don't count the Ring anyways, cause I'l like that. Shoulda been clearer thought.

grimbold
2011-01-06, 12:16 PM
so basically i shouldnt do it?

Ytaker
2011-01-06, 12:26 PM
"I wish for a week long 5+ strength bonus"

"Sure. I'll just take it from your constitution... here you go."

You could get unintended consequences. It's a powerful wish.

Stegyre
2011-01-06, 05:20 PM
could i wish for a short term (like week-long) +5 inherent bonus to a stat and then later in the week (or with another wish if 2 are available then) wish for the bonus to be made permanent? Assuming i worded it correctly i see no issues.
You see no issues? You are trying to use two wishes to do something that, by RAW, requires five wishes.

That's just asking for it. :smallamused:

A kind GM would protect you from yourself and just give you a +2 inherent bonus. A mean GM would find one of a number of effective ways to essentially leave you with two fewer wishes for only a temporary benefit (and quite likely a very brief one, at that).

Glimbur
2011-01-06, 06:14 PM
I have a question pertaining to the wish spell.
i think i found an interesting loophole.
could i wish for a short term (like week-long) +5 inherent bonus to a stat and then later in the week (or with another wish if 2 are available then) wish for the bonus to be made permanent? Assuming i worded it correctly i see no issues.

Here's what I would do. Persistent Bull's Strength is mostly an 8th level spell. Wish can cast an 8th level spell. Congratulations, you have a persistent [Animal Attribute] spell from the first wish.

The second wish was straight-up asked for something wish can't do safely, so it adds another 24 hours of duration on, which is pretty much the same as the first wish and should be viable. Or, to be RAW, it casts the persistent spell again so you get more duration. That's all the power wish has.

Edit: This seems to make me a mean DM. So be it.

Stegyre
2011-01-06, 06:24 PM
Edit: This seems to make me a mean DM. So be it.
Yep (by my definition, above), but then, the player's asking for it.

I agree with how elegantly you handle it: each wish does what it can, within the listed RAW constraints. Unfortunately for the player, that doesn't really give him what he wants. That's what players get for being greedy.

(A really mean GM would have someone standing by with a couple of Greater Dispels.)

Grelna the Blue
2011-01-06, 06:46 PM
Or the second wish might place you into Temporal Stasis (with all current magical effects in place). Congratulations!