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View Full Version : Does anyone know anything about sociopaths? I want to try to roleplay one



randomhero00
2011-01-03, 01:24 PM
I have an idea for a character, a bard actually, that's a sociopath. He charms everyone he meets. Mirroring their personality. Rarely showing his own. That's about as far as I got in my research. The (hopefully) kicker will be near the end when the party figures out he's insane.

Aharon
2011-01-03, 01:29 PM
I suggest American Psycho (The book, not the film). Despite possibly being conceived by the author as a caricature (it's an open question wether all that stuff happens or is just the protagonist's imagination), IMO, it gives a good overview of how a violent sociopath might act.

Also keep in mind that sociopathy's main characteristic is a lack of empathy - and by that measurement, lots of people ar sociopaths.

randomhero00
2011-01-03, 01:35 PM
I suggest American Psycho (The book, not the film). Despite possibly being conceived by the author as a caricature (it's an open question wether all that stuff happens or is just the protagonist's imagination), IMO, it gives a good overview of how a violent sociopath might act.

Also keep in mind that sociopathy's main characteristic is a lack of empathy - and by that measurement, lots of people ar sociopaths.

Yeah but this character isn't supposed to be a serial killer. Just mentally effed, ya know? I'm not even sure what alignment would be. He doesn't actively kill for pleasure or anything. He just has no empathy and doesn't understand the need to feel for others. Which is really a subtle roleplay path.

Keinnicht
2011-01-03, 01:43 PM
Yeah but this character isn't supposed to be a serial killer. Just mentally effed, ya know? I'm not even sure what alignment would be. He doesn't actively kill for pleasure or anything. He just has no empathy and doesn't understand the need to feel for others. Which is really a subtle roleplay path.

If you don't want him to be a serial killer, how is he going to be an adventurer?

[/joke]

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 01:49 PM
An adventurer doesn't have to be a "serial killer" if they only kill in self-defence or on the instruction of local authorities. Though I get the joke.

"low/no empathy" can be played- maybe stress that the character doesn't understand certain drives others have.
They might be completely mystified by the concept of "caring for others as people" and see everything in terms of "Assets" and "Threats".

Count Dooku, in the Episode III novelization, was a bit like this.

randomhero00
2011-01-03, 01:52 PM
I guess it would depend on the position the DM forces the party into. A nursery of babies is infected with a long lasting deadly plague. Do you kill them to stop it now or let them grow up, perhaps isolated, but still at risk in infecting others? The sociopath would be all for killing them instantly.

But that's something I'd have to rely on my DM producing. I'm trying to think of general roleplay quirks that I don't have to rely on a specific situation.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-03, 01:54 PM
Wikipedia on Psychopathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy) and Antisocial personality disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_Personality_Disorder)

A bit about charismatic psychopaths thriving at the top of the business world. (http://www.sociopathworld.com/2010/06/corporate-sociopath.html)

If looking for a fictional point of inspiration, try "Long" John Silver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_John_Silver), from Treasure Island - he's a text-book psychopath. Seemingly affable, helpful to the protagonists when their goals meet, but ready to switch sides at the drop of a hat, a remorseless murderer and eloquent liar.

Curiously enough, it's implied in the book he had wife and kids, and was going to live happily ever after with them outside the reach of the law with his share of the treasure.

Of course, he might have been lying...

Cristo Meyers
2011-01-03, 01:54 PM
"low/no empathy" can be played- maybe stress that the character doesn't understand certain drives others have.
They might be completely mystified by the concept of "caring for others as people" and see everything in terms of "Assets" and "Threats".

Count Dooku, in the Episode III novelization, was a bit like this.

This would definitely be close enough to work, since we're talking about a psychological condition here. Going really in depth into the hows and whys of sociopathy would probably only cause more problems.

The way you've described the character he would definitely be a complete user of people. They're no more than means to whatever end the character is after and he'd probably be completely incapable of grasping the fact that using these people like that is reprehensible.

Mastikator
2011-01-03, 02:08 PM
I know a little about sociopath, I'm not a psychiatrist, but this is my hobby psychology knowledge:
Sociopaths are superficially charming, that part you have covered. They are also have zero capacity for empathy, they just don't care about other people. A sociopath can watch a baby get mutilated and not flinch, a sociopath can see his own family burn alive and not care.
Playing a sociopath is not a good idea since if you want to play it well you'll eventually have to betray your group the moment it benefits you.

Sociopaths tend to exhibit parasitic behavior, using other people then leaving them, and though most sociopaths aren't serial killers, they are pathological liars.
They are also very impulsive and lack long term goals. They also tend to be at average IQ or slightly above. And they understand human emotion, but not on an empathic level. So moderate or higher int, low wis, very high charisma.

Psychopathy is generally triggered by three things, the first is an abusive childhood, the second is a mental disorder or brain damage (can be caused by head trauma), the third is a gene that you need to have.

If you've read Dexter then you get a good description. If you've watched the show, but not read then know this, Dexter is way too meticulous and methodological, in the book he's very impulsive and sloppy.


I'd go with Chaotic Evil, with a capital on both letters, just because a sociopath doesn't compulsively and ritually murder people (which is what serial killers do), doesn't mean that murdering babies is out of the picture. But outwards he would seem like chaotic good (until a paladin shows up I guess).

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:13 PM
I know a little about sociopath, I'm not a psychiatrist, but this is my hobby psychology knowledge:
Sociopaths are superficially charming, that part you have covered. They are also have zero capacity for empathy, they just don't care about other people. A sociopath can watch a baby get mutilated and not flinch, a sociopath can see his own family burn alive and not care.

Might be the most extreme end of the scale- and it may be a scale rather than a type. A character might exhibit "sociopathic tendencies" which might be amplified or reduced depending on the situation.

For example, character could be "more sociopathic" toward any group they can label "the enemy" yet still be capable of caring, to an extent, for their "in-group".

randomhero00
2011-01-03, 02:14 PM
Yeah but even a sociopath can see his group as a useful tool. In games I've played there's never been a reason to betray them (except toward the very very end, i.e. epilogue).

edit: then who are the meticulous murderers we've heard about in society? They must be sociopaths obviously. So obviously some must be meticulous.

Grelna the Blue
2011-01-03, 02:15 PM
Sociopathy is frequently conflated with several other disorders. I suggest using the attributes of Dissocial personality disorder, which is broad enough to to include sociopathy within it and defined well enough to be usable. I have seen players portray this disorder without even trying. To be sure, at least one of those players suffered from this disorder himself, so he could hardly help it.

Dissocial personality disorder is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations. (One aspect of this one I've seen is that they they often don't "get" law or morality on any basis other than reward/punishment) Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment (One way this can play out is, "I'm already wanted by the law for murder, so why not kill that guardsman?")
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
Persistent irritability.

arguskos
2011-01-03, 02:17 PM
I have a character who is a sociopath, but more in the "serial killer" direction of things. If you feel that my characterization of Zekharyah would be of value to you, I'd be happy to share. However, be warned, when I get deep in character, I get... deep in character. Ye be warned.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:23 PM
Dissocial personality disorder is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

if you pick the right 3 or 4:


Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
Persistent irritability.


you can have a fairly "mild" sociopath, rather than the more violent kind.
Carl Denham from King Kong (maybe the Peter Jackson version?) is cited as CE in Complete Scoundrel- despite not being particularly violent- which might be a case of the milder type of Evil.

FMArthur
2011-01-03, 02:36 PM
What you're asking for describes pretty much any evil adventurer who isn't of the "kill everything just for fun" variety. Really anyone who comes into a D&D game with an unabashed "gamer" attitude is going to be playing that way by default. :smalltongue:

Ytaker
2011-01-03, 02:36 PM
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders66.html

Sociopath case studies

http://toogoodtobereal.blogspot.com/2006/06/beware-techniques-of-sociopath.html

The techniques a sociopath uses to charm people.

"According to Dr. Hare and Dr. Babiak, psychopaths are always on the lookout for individuals to scam or swindle. The psychopathic approach includes three phases: the assessment phase, the manipulation phase and the abandonment phase. "Some psychopaths are opportunistic, aggressive predators who wil take advantage of almost anyone they meet, while others are more patient, waiting for the perfect, innocent victim to cross their path. In each case, the psychopath is constantly sizing up the potential usefulness of an individual as a source of money, power, sex or influence".

The authors go on to say that some psychopaths enjoy a challenge while others prey on people who are vulnerable. This could include people who are lonely or people who need emotional support, elderly people or those who have been recently hurt or victimized. During the assessment phase, the psychopath is able to determine a potential victim's weak points and will use those weak points to seduce.

http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Am-A-Sociopath/42740

Stories from socoiopaths.

I was woken up this week to what I might be by being told by some people after I proudly exclaimed about my week's current misdeeds that it's not normal to not care about right or wrong. I thought it through, the only reason I ever really do the "right" thing, is to get ahead in life, or to not be arrested, if there were no laws I'm sure I would have caused chaos, sheer ******* chaos by now.

Telonius
2011-01-03, 02:37 PM
There's a range of behaviors that a sociopath can fall under. The "mirroring" thing is actually one way that some therapists use to help the higher-functioning ones "fit in" to normal society.

A sociopath doesn't have to be "insane" in the "raving lunatic" or even "heartless murderer" sense. It might just be that they're totally incapable of emotion. Bard would actually be a pretty interesting concept for that. He can play his instrument with such skill that it could bring tears to anyone's eyes but his own. His performance persona would be a total mask. If he ever lets anyone see behind it - if they ever see that he really doesn't care - his music would be forever ruined. The audience would feel like they've been played.

Callista
2011-01-03, 02:45 PM
Yup, sociopaths are usually CE and always evil. If they cease to be Evil, they no longer qualify as sociopaths. They do not need to be killers; in fact, the vast majority aren't; they're simply people who care only about themselves, and that's the definition of evil. (There's more to it, of course. Go on and read a few books, do some research. It's actually pretty interesting.)

How chaotic your character is will be very significant. If he is very chaotic, then he'll be unable to inhibit his impulses to do antisocial things; and that would make him a bad character to play--you wouldn't get to play him for very long because the rest of the party would either ditch him or kill him. You'll want to play someone who is very nearly, or actually is, NE.

If you'll remember the way Belkar is learning how to play society's game--it's a lot like that. Belkar started out as strongly evil and strongly chaotic; now he's only moderately chaotic, and that's making it easier for him to live in society as an evil person. You'll want to do something like this. Give your character a decent Wisdom score that he can use to understand others, understand society, and think about things before he does them. What you want is not a thug who kills the first person who looks at him funny--you want a high-functioning sociopath who is willing to play the game, put on a good face, and charm people into thinking he is a nice guy in order to get what he wants.

But re-think the idea of this person being "insane" in the out-of-touch-with-reality way; they wouldn't be. There's no psychosis involved.

And of course, you should have a backup character so that if this goes wrong and the party kicks out or kills your PC, you can quickly bring in someone new and won't have to sit out while you make a new character.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:50 PM
they're simply people who care only about themselves, and that's the definition of evil. (There's more to it, of course. Go on and read a few books, do some research. It's actually pretty interesting.)

In a D&D sense, it's more the point where a person's alignment can't be anything other than evil.
It's possible to have an evil-aligned character who isn't a full-blown sociopath though- they'd probably have other traits to make them evil.

Like, behaving in a sociopathic fashion toward some people (who might be designated in their mind as "the enemy") rather than all people.

AyeGill
2011-01-03, 02:51 PM
Bard would actually be a pretty interesting concept for that. He can play his instrument with such skill that it could bring tears to anyone's eyes but his own. His performance persona would be a total mask. If he ever lets anyone see behind it - if they ever see that he really doesn't care - his music would be forever ruined. The audience would feel like they've been played.

this.
i second.
+1

Gnaeus
2011-01-03, 02:52 PM
Remember that in many historical societies, this behavior could be the norm, or even admirable. How it plays in your game may vary.

There was a recent documentary about a mob killer. He lived a normal life, had a wife and kids (of whom he was very protective), but if someone threatened his family or him, he cut them up and dumped them in a cave. He mentioned that he would torture them, solely for the purpose of making himself feel any emotion about their death.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:56 PM
Remember that in many historical societies, this behavior could be the norm, or even admirable. How it plays in your game may vary.

There was a recent documentary about a mob killer. He lived a normal life, had a wife and kids (of whom he was very protective), but if someone threatened his family or him, he cut them up and dumped them in a cave.

Hence the suggestion I made, that it was "sociopathic toward some people" rather than "sociopathic toward all people" that's a sign of Evil alignment.

To care about somebody- implies that the character is not totally sociopathic toward everyone- they have empathy- even if it's pretty narrow.

Callista
2011-01-03, 03:02 PM
It's not necessary to be completely lacking in empathy to be a sociopath. In fact, many are very good at detecting others' emotions--they know exactly how you are feeling, the better to manipulate you.

Ytaker
2011-01-03, 03:14 PM
It's not necessary to be completely lacking in empathy to be a sociopath. In fact, many are very good at detecting others' emotions--they know exactly how you are feeling, the better to manipulate you.

They don't feel the emotions though. That's one of the defining characteristics of sociopaths. If they felt your emotions they'd feel remorse when they did bad things because they'd feel your pain.

WarKitty
2011-01-03, 03:25 PM
There's a range of behaviors that a sociopath can fall under. The "mirroring" thing is actually one way that some therapists use to help the higher-functioning ones "fit in" to normal society.

A sociopath doesn't have to be "insane" in the "raving lunatic" or even "heartless murderer" sense. It might just be that they're totally incapable of emotion. Bard would actually be a pretty interesting concept for that. He can play his instrument with such skill that it could bring tears to anyone's eyes but his own. His performance persona would be a total mask. If he ever lets anyone see behind it - if they ever see that he really doesn't care - his music would be forever ruined. The audience would feel like they've been played.

+2. He can charm his way out of anything. He can bring tears to the judge's eyes when he's on trial. He's an expert at getting people to see things the way he wants them to see things. But he himself doesn't feel anything.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 04:18 PM
It's not necessary to be completely lacking in empathy to be a sociopath. In fact, many are very good at detecting others' emotions--they know exactly how you are feeling, the better to manipulate you.

"Lacking in caring" then- a person can genuinely care about someone other than themselves (hence not being a "total sociopath") and still have other traits to qualify them as evil aligned.

Empathy in this context referred to actually being able to, say, dislike the sight of others suffering- emotionally or physically- because they can imagine themselves in the same position.

Callista
2011-01-03, 06:11 PM
Right. Lacking in caring, not in understanding. Someone who doesn't read emotions well is merely socially clumsy or oblivious, not sociopathic--once they know what the other person is feeling, they'll likely care about it just as much as the people who've got a positive modifier to their Sense Motive checks. :)

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-03, 07:18 PM
A huge trap you could fall into with this character is to treat him as a character without emotions: those with antisocial disorder feel emotions themselves, which drive them to commit evil acts. Finding the emotion which fuels your character is important.

A big one, for instance, is fear of abandonment. It makes sense if you think about it: If you don't understand why people do what they do or feel how they feel, you'd probably be okay with manipulating them for your own gain. What's more, you'd consider those who didn't go along... You might use the word evil, but you'd probably see them more as neutral to be honest. A sociopath, for instance, might have a dog which keeps him company... But should the dog stop listening to him, or seem to stop loving him, there's a good chance he would kill it.

What I'm trying to say is a sociopath needs not only motive to act as they do, but an irrational trigger which could break the mask. For a bard, perhaps finding those who do not listen to his song. Or perhaps seeing the party "put him at risk". Remember he feels not for others, but he does feel for himself, and consider this second half as importantly as the first.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-03, 07:24 PM
I'm not a psychiatry student or buff, but I do watch a lot of television. So while I can't tell you a whole lot of clinical terms, I can tell you what your fellow players will be looking out for when they hear that you're playing a sociopath.

In the common parlance (as much as I can tell), psychopathy is generally defined by a lack of conscience. Maybe it you're born with it, maybe it develops from an abusive home, but it really doesn't matter. By the time they're adults, they have a great deal of difficulty understanding morality in general, specifically sympathy. Belkar's a great example: in the angel / devil conscience gag, his angel just plain isn't there. What is the "right" thing to do never factors into the equation. To a sociopath, all interactions with all external parties are about one thing: what will benefit me, personally, the most? Sometimes this means seducing them. Sometimes this means swindling them. Sometimes this means killing them. Depends on personal preferrance.

Of course, simply killing everyone you meet is a good way to get locked up, so crucial to long-term survival is the ability to fake it. Sociopaths tend to be wonderfully skilled liar and charmers, if only by necessity. The most narcissistic and cynical (two rather common traits) view those strange urges like "charity" and "compassion" that everyone else seems to have to be a weakness, so preying on those weaknesses is largely a social matter. When people see through their deceptions, however, is when things tend to get violent, as hair-trigger tempers are bread and butter.

Gaming as a sociopath while also being a team player is going to be...difficult. After all; the only reason you're associating with these people is because there's going to be a big payoff for you somewhere down the line; if there weren't, then you wouldn't be there. The second that the short term benefit of betraying your fellows outweighs the long term benefit of whatever, it would be hideously out of character for you to not to stab them in the back (possibly literally). Again, not a psychologist, but from my limited understanding simply growing a conscience is out of the question, so if you're going for authenticity with the condition, betrayal may be inevitable.

I don't know what system you're using, so I'm going to give suggestions based on what I know. For D&D, Intelligence and Charisma should be paramount. Be prepared to make a Bluff check every time you open your mouth. If you're playing 3.5, look at Rogue, Hexblade (lol Hexblade), Bard, and take a long hard look at Beguiler. If you're playing 4e, look at Artful Dodger Rogue, Thief, Illusionist Wizard, Fey Pact or Sorcerer-King Pact Warlock, Cunning Bard, and Resourceful Warlord. For World of Darkness, Finesse traits and Social Skills get most of the billing, but don't neglect Firearms or Weaponry. Try Circle of the Crone Daeva or Ventrue in VtR (Architects of the Monolith and Sotoha bloodlines are of special mention here. A Sotoha could make a frighteningly effective sociopath), Free Council Thrysus for MtAw, and Spring Court Fairest for CtL.

Read through all of World of Darkness: Slasher, regardless of what system you're using, especially the sections on Charmers and Geniuses. Also useful would be the Draugr section in The Wicked Dead, as it gives very good advice on how to both roleplay and run a character that is all vice and no virtue.

Hope this was helpful

Trekkin
2011-01-03, 07:49 PM
Sociopaths, in my opinion, should act CE for TN reasons. They are, in a sense, extremely driven individuals, and could be roleplayed almost as computers in the sense that they look at individuals and see decision engines to be manipulated because that's how they think they work internally. They probably have a set of mental constructions intended to keep their options open when near others, having learned that actually acting in what they consider to be their best interest leads to negative reactions.

In short, restrict his world to a series of causal relationships free of overarching moral concerns.

TheWhisper
2011-01-03, 08:16 PM
Things to remember for playing a sociopath:

1. They do not experience much empathy. While they understand what pain and sadness feel like, and they understand that others experience these things the same way they do, they do not feel sadness or pain when they witness or cause it in others.

They understand other people's feelings, they just don't care.

2. They are not necessarily violent or even criminal. They always do what they feel is in their best interest, and can even be quite prosocial if the payoff for that behaviour is good enough.

They are focused on their own benefit, not on hurting others.

3. They frequently break social mores and even laws in the pursuit of benefit, pleasure or satisfaction. Lacking empathetic and mirroring capacity, they are often unable to experience love or companionship. This unfulfilled need creates a dissatisfaction that they often try to fill with sex, intoxicants, or risky, thrill-seeking behaviour.

4. At their best, they are clever, objective, and clearheaded. At their worst, they are manipulative, ruthless, and treacherous.

Traab
2011-01-03, 08:29 PM
Here are some of the signs.

1) Glibness and superficial charm

2) 'manipulative and cunning

3)'Grandiose Sense of Self. Feels entitled to certain things as 'their right'

4) 'Pathological Lying. Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

5)'Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

6) Shallow Emotions: When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

7) 'Need for Stimulation: Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

8) 'Callousness/Lack of Empathy: Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them

9) 'Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature: Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim.

10) 'Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

11) 'Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency: Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc

12) 'Irresponsibility/Unreliability: Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

13) 'Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity: Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts

14) 'Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle: Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

15) 'Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility: Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily


Now, you dont have to include all of those, but that should give you some good guidelines.

Fox Box Socks
2011-01-03, 08:41 PM
Things to remember for playing a sociopath:

1. They do not experience much empathy. While they understand what pain and sadness feel like, and they understand that others experience these things the same way they do, they do not feel sadness or pain when they witness or cause it in others.

They understand other people's feelings, they just don't care.

2. They are not necessarily violent or even criminal. They always do what they feel is in their best interest, and can even be quite prosocial if the payoff for that behaviour is good enough.

They are focused on their own benefit, not on hurting others.
This right here is what I think everyone is driving at. If a sociopath wants to sleep with random women, and he knows that cooking up with some sob story about how his dad died yesterday will help facilitate pity sex with random women in bars, then he's going to keep doing it until external forces prevent him from doing so or until he gets bored.

Like I said before, there is no angel on the shoulder. Only various devils calculating short term vs long term personal gain.

Gavinfoxx
2011-01-03, 09:18 PM
I'd say some good examples of high functioning sociopaths in popular culture are James Bond and Sherlock Holmes.

Tiki Snakes
2011-01-03, 10:56 PM
I'd say some good examples of high functioning sociopaths in popular culture are James Bond and Sherlock Holmes.

Actually, in a recent BBC Sherlock mini-series, Sherlock even self-identifies as this.

So, yeah, basically. :smallsmile:

Lord.Sorasen
2011-01-03, 11:39 PM
I'd say some good examples of high functioning sociopaths in popular culture are James Bond and Sherlock Holmes.

All the major characters in Death Note could be identified as Sociopath (L just might be an exception, Near and Mellow though, for sure), which gives a sense of the full scale of what people may be. In the case of Light, he simply believes he is on the side of good, but with a view of good detached from actual human emotion. Mellow and Near stay on the side of good because catching criminals interests them. They don't actually do it for the sake of others.

An evil sociopath among good people can be seen in Eric Cartman of South Park, who manipulates those around him to get what he wants, and sticks around his "friends" because he ultimately fears abandonment and is aware that he cannot possibly function in the world on his own. Perhaps his "friends" stay with him because they underestimate his insanity and feel maybe they can help him. Maybe they feel he's a lost cause and it wouldn't be worth trying to shake him off. Note that he can very easily fake emotion because he knows what it is, but any lesson he appears to learn is dogmatic. He knows not to act a certain way because doing so hurts him. He acts like he feels empathy but clearly does not.

Callista
2011-01-04, 03:37 AM
I don't think Sherlock is a sociopath, whether or not he thinks of himself as one; he's just very unemotional. You see occasional glimmers of emotion that he just doesn't show.

He's got serious issues, sure; but he definitely cares about people; he has a very close relationship with Watson, for one thing, and somewhat with his housekeeper too. I would call him... hmm, schizoid, maybe. Lack of expressed emotion, very few interpersonal relationships, asexual... pretty much fits. Some kind of personality thing, anyway. (And drug abuse, obviously, but modern psychologists make a bigger deal of that than they did back then.) He's not sociopathic; he's introverted and rather asocial, not antisocial.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-04, 04:24 AM
I had a long, long rant that the fora just ate with the backup, but I can sum it up by saying that it pisses me off that when someone asks how to roleplay a sociopath, they are referenced to things like American Psycho. That's like holding up FATAL or Simple Jack as appropriate ways of portraying mental retardation.

People seem to have the conception that antisocial personality disorder is some sort of disorder that turns you either into the Joker, or into Spock-gone-murdering. Which is not true, and if you think that statement or anything like it is true, you are patently, objectively wrong.

In short, it's taking a mental disorder that ****loads of people have (3% of males, 1% of females) and distilling it into a few nasty stereotypes. Which I don't like.

Typewriter
2011-01-04, 09:17 AM
I am also not a head doctor or anything of the like, but my father was diagnosed as a sociopath with schizophrenia, and I can describe some of what I perceived as his 'behaviors'.

1. Selfish. Everything he did was for himself. He knew how to act like he was helping others, but everything was an attempt at improving his situation.

2. Never admit fault. It doesn't matter if someone has evidence that you're acting crazy, they're the ones who are crazy. Maybe it's time to act like you agree with them, but that's just to end the conversation. You know you're right.

3. Manipulate through guilt. Do you need someone to take the fall for you? Make them know everything you've done for them, let them know they're nothing without you. Then tell them what you need.

4. No shame. If you need to strip naked and dance in town hall to get what you need, then do it. Play the fool, whatever, but don't regret it. Don't even think twice about it. Just strip and dance.

5. No regret. You get the party cleric killed? Oh well, too bad, moving on...

6. Triggers. You need something(or things) that sets your character off. Is it disrepsect? Elves? If you perceive someone as having slighted you, then ruin their life. If you don't want to murder, but you want to be a bard - ruin their reputation. "Why did you get me fired, and convince my wife I was cheating on her?", "Because you crossed the path of a black cat in my sight".

7. Obsession. Just like triggers, you have things that set you off, but this is more of something you feel driven to do. Sleep with married women, kill people, break into peoples houses and dance, dig up recently dug graves and hide jewelry with corpses. Whatever. Have strange things that your character likes to do, that he does obsessively, ritually, compulsively.

8. Flexible Morality. This one probably seems like a given, but what's weird is that, as I understand, sociopaths often have very specific rules they live by, but when they need to they break those rules with little to no remorse. Sometimes they'll justify the action to themselves, often they won't even bother.

9. Understand, but don't care. Other people have said it better than me. You may understand emotion. You may think you feel emotion. But you don't. If your character thinks he's in love and wants something, it's not love - it's obsession. The desire to have, to control, maybe even to flaunt, but it will not be the same kind of love people generally talk about.

mangosta71
2011-01-04, 12:54 PM
There's no reason a sociopath can't get along with a group of normal people. He sticks with them because doing so furthers his own goals. Perhaps he finds their banter amusing. He knows what emotions are from an intellectual standpoint and he is quick to recognize and exploit them in others (and can fake them very convincingly). (Tangent: this is why his wisdom shouldn't necessarily be low, and might actually be more realistic if it's high - he can recognize the feelings of others very well; empathy is sharing their feelings.)

In the end, the group is there for his benefit. He's not likely to kill someone he's working with - that would be wasting a valuable resource. If someone in the party dies (assuming he didn't mastermind it), he'll be upset because of the loss to himself but he won't dwell on it.

TheWhisper
2011-01-04, 02:31 PM
2. Never admit fault. It doesn't matter if someone has evidence that you're acting crazy, they're the ones who are crazy. Maybe it's time to act like you agree with them, but that's just to end the conversation. You know you're right.

Rather, you pretend to know you're right. You're a sociopath, which means you understand stuff, you just don't care. You know perfectly well that something is your "fault". But you also know that you'll be better off if you pin it on someone else, and that's all you really care about.


4. No shame. If you need to strip naked and dance in town hall to get what you need, then do it. Play the fool, whatever, but don't regret it. Don't even think twice about it. Just strip and dance.

Not necessarily. It's also possible that you have a burning desire to be treated with respect, always, by everyone... so you will never do such a thing, not even to save the life of a friend.

Sociopaths vary.


6. Triggers. You need something(or things) that sets your character off. Is it disrepsect? Elves? If you perceive someone as having slighted you, then ruin their life. If you don't want to murder, but you want to be a bard - ruin their reputation. "Why did you get me fired, and convince my wife I was cheating on her?", "Because you crossed the path of a black cat in my sight".

Not just anything, though, or something arbitrary. Triggers will be slights, but your response will be way out of proportion... and you won't care if the slight was unintentional. You can't stand that someone did that to you, and you have to make sure it never happens again.


7. Obsession. Just like triggers, you have things that set you off, but this is more of something you feel driven to do. Sleep with married women, kill people, break into peoples houses and dance, dig up recently dug graves and hide jewelry with corpses. Whatever. Have strange things that your character likes to do, that he does obsessively, ritually, compulsively.

Again, not strange or random things, but things related to your emotional needs in a twisted fashion. For example: you have the same need to be loved as everyone else, but you don't have the "mirroring" process that allows you to love and attract love. You are driven to seduce every woman you form a friendship with, trying to find or create some counterfeit that will soothe that need a little.


8. Flexible Morality. This one probably seems like a given, but what's weird is that, as I understand, sociopaths often have very specific rules they live by, but when they need to they break those rules with little to no remorse. Sometimes they'll justify the action to themselves, often they won't even bother.

You don't believe in morality. You understand it, but you think it's a fake, made-up, invented thing. You use it when it helps you, and discard it when it doesn't,like any other tool.


9. Understand, but don't care. Other people have said it better than me. You may understand emotion. You may think you feel emotion. But you don't. If your character thinks he's in love and wants something, it's not love - it's obsession. The desire to have, to control, maybe even to flaunt, but it will not be the same kind of love people generally talk about.

No, this is wrong. You do feel emotion... but you don't echo the emotions of others. Seeing people happy, or making them happy, doesn't make you happy. Seeing people sad, or making them sad, doesn't make you sad. You're only emotionally affected by what directly affects you.

You can even appear altruistic if the circumstances are right. What you are missing is any inherent satisfaction in pleasing others. If you are kind to the woman you love, it is so that she will like you better. If you give to charity, it is to gain the respect of others.

What is missing from you is not emotion, or understanding what others feel. It is feeling what others feel. Everything you do follows from that in a perfect understandable fashion.

Paseo H
2011-01-04, 05:36 PM
This hits a little close to home for me, because despite the fact that I do have a conscience and I do know I can understand and respect the feelings of others, I sometimes worry that I might be a little sociopathic, or at least narcissistic.

This is a bit of a personal tangent so this next part will be spoilered so you don't have to read if you don't want to:

Taking Typewriter's list:

1. Selfish...well I tell myself that in the end only I can take care of myself, that nobody else really understands me like I do, and in some situations I make it clear that it's only an alliance of convenience and that I will leave them in the dust the moment they put one foot out of line. In other words, I tend to have Chronic Backstabbing Disorder when it comes to guilds in mmos, because whenever I get loyal, things change and not in accordance with what I consider my best interests.

2. This is tricky. One of my common sayings is "If I'm at fault, it's not because you/some other person says so." Basically, I admit fault without acknowledging any sort of moral high ground on the part of the accuser. I feel threatened otherwise.

3. I hate guilt trips very much. On the other hand, one of the skills I'm honing for myself is the ability to deliver good Hannibal Lectures or Reason You Suck Speeches, so make of that what you will.

4. I suppose if it was something VERY important...:tongue:

5. It would depend on how much of my fault it was.

6. I do have triggers and what might be normal malfeasance to some might be a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance for me (i.e. I am a Knight Templar on some issues.) I think I have too much of a conscience to seriously ruin someone's life though, even if it's a severe temptation.

7. Hmm...well, I do lately tend to choose my games based on the presence of hot anime chicks in them. :p

8. In this sense, I tend to identify with Suzaku Kururugi from Code Geass. Those who have watched the series know what I mean.

9. I don't know.

It seems to be that at least for some sociopaths, it should be even easier to blend in than a normal person, because it's nothing more than keeping up an act of being a kind and decent person, unfailingly, rather than being a normal person who may or may not run afoul of something and end up rocking the boat over it.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-04, 05:37 PM
The Nostalgia Critic has a top 11 list of this. (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/nostalgia-critic/28152-top-11-scariest-performances)

Semidi
2011-01-04, 09:49 PM
A lot of people are mentioning American Psycho, which is pretty good, but if you're not going for serial killer and more just manipulative *******s without guilt I think the movie In the Company of Men (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119361/) would be best here. I would warn the viewer that it's one of the more painful movies I've ever seen despite having no blood, no murder, and no monsters. Seriously, seriously recommended.

TheWhisper
2011-01-05, 04:06 PM
I know it's so obvious that it hardly bears mentioning, but watch Dark Knight a couple of times, and really listen to what Heath Ledger as the Joker is saying.

The sociopath is not a berserk axe-murderer, or compulsively violent, or mentally impaired. No, the sociopath is a cynic on rocket-fuel, who doesn't believe in altruism, or absolute right and wrong, or that the conscience is anything but a weakness.

And the scariest thing of all is that he makes a compelling argument. The scary thing is not simply what he does, but that he may very well be right, and the rest of us the delusional ones.

He paints a compelling picture of a universe where clear vision and accurate perception of reality turns you into a monster (or as he would say, just someone who's ahead of the curve).

To play a sociopath, watch not his actions, but his philosophical arguments. Then play someone who believes them.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 04:13 PM
It may be possible for a normal person influenced by sociopaths (or the world around them) to become increasingly sociopathic- to become less and less influenced by the happiness or suffering of those around them, and more and more narcissistic.

Question is- are some people "just built that way" with little or no ability to change- whereas others can move in that direction depending on what they experience and how they choose to respond to it?

And are the people "built that way" what most people think of, when they think of "the totally sociopathic"?

Zen Monkey
2011-01-05, 04:28 PM
One theory about the Joker, vaguely hinted at in a couple of books, is that what made him snap was the realization that he was in a work of fiction and that nothing mattered anymore.

Your sociopath character doesn't need to know he's in a game, but could approach everything as though it is a game and with all the significance and meaning that we would approach a round of hearts or solitaire on the computer.

TheWhisper
2011-01-05, 04:44 PM
Question is- are some people "just built that way" with little or no ability to change- whereas others can move in that direction depending on what they experience and how they choose to respond to it?

And are the people "built that way" what most people think of, when they think of "the totally sociopathic"?

A very interesting question.

When I look at the history of psychology and social philosophy, I tend to see conditions move through three stages.

The last is the first-person stage, the "I stage". This is things that society has accepted as a different way of being, and not problem that needs to be solved. These are the stories that society allows people to talk about in the first person... "I am gay, and this is what it's like", etc.

Before that comes the second person stage. These are things are seen as problems, but not occasions for blame. The get written about in the second person: "Here's what to do if you have panic attacks, are depressed, etc."

Before that, you have third person stage. These are people society finds morally repugnant because of their condition. They are spoken of in the third person, because no one knows or cares what they should, except die and go to hell as quickly as possible. Instead we focus on what to about them: "If you know someone you suspect is a sociopath, here's how to handle him."

These "third-person" conditions can be very interesting, because the way we don't want to understand them reveals things about us.

Homosexuality is a first-person condition, except for some religious nutcases who see it as a second. But it used to be a third person condition, an occasion for burning at the stake. (This is where the term "******" comes from.)

Certain conditions like sociopathy (also narcissism, pedophilia, etc), are something we don't want to understand. We realize on some level that these behaviours must be compulsive (who would choose to be a pedophile? ), but we don't want to think about that, because we find their actions so repugnant that we want to hate them... and we are so afraid of what they do that we believe if we stop morally condemning it, others will join in.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 04:52 PM
"Depersonalization" plays a big part in "them and us" morality.

"They" are not people at all- not like "Us" they are "things" of zero moral value, or even "monsters/vermin/enemies" of negative moral value- and thus their sufferings, or happiness, are not to be empathized with.

Might certain forms of sociopathy, be this- only applied to everyone- with the sociopath being the only "person" and everyone else being "things" to them?

And if so- might it be said- that "sociopathic behaviour" is something people try to encourage under certain circumstances- but only toward the "enemy" group?

Alternatively- are all humans naturally sociopathic from birth- and a big part of childraising- is instilling the attitude- that others are persons- to be empathized with?

So in that case, it wouldn't so much be creating sociopathic behaviour- as "removing civilized behaviour"?

Paseo H
2011-01-05, 08:04 PM
Your sociopath character doesn't need to know he's in a game, but could approach everything as though it is a game and with all the significance and meaning that we would approach a round of hearts or solitaire on the computer.

You pretty much just described Xanatos, my Magnificent Bastard android.

TheWhisper
2011-01-05, 11:49 PM
"Depersonalization" plays a big part in "them and us" morality.

"They" are not people at all- not like "Us" they are "things" of zero moral value, or even "monsters/vermin/enemies" of negative moral value- and thus their sufferings, or happiness, are not to be empathized with.

Might certain forms of sociopathy, be this- only applied to everyone- with the sociopath being the only "person" and everyone else being "things" to them?

I would say that this is a useful way of looking at it... but also consider how we treat sociopaths themselves in this fashion (as non-persons), while granting personhood to others with mental abnormalities (depressives, addicts, epileptics).


And if so- might it be said- that "sociopathic behaviour" is something people try to encourage under certain circumstances- but only toward the "enemy" group?

Certainly. And this would imply that sociopathy exists by degrees and in frames of reference... because it's essentially another way of looking at the size of your Monkeysphere (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monkeysphere).

An extreme sociopath might be somebody whose Monkeysphere included only himself. We would certainly consider such a person frightening.

But we also, as a society, demand sociopathic behaviour in certain contexts. Imagine someone with no sociopathic tendencies whatsoever, whose Monkeysphere included all living creatures. We would consider such a person monstrous also... because he would set the life of a rat and that of his wife at equal value.


Alternatively- are all humans naturally sociopathic from birth- and a big part of childraising- is instilling the attitude- that others are persons- to be empathized with?

I would go one step further and say that we teach children lessons about who is to be empathized with and who is not. This is why we scarf down bacon but are horrified at the idea of Chinese and Koreans eating dogs... because we are taught to empathize with dogs, but to be sociopathic towards the equally intelligent and social creature, the pig.

Those whom psychologists (a group not renowned for being able to step outside of cultural bias) call "sociopaths" would be those who exclude from the sphere of empathy some group or number of individuals which others in this culture generally include.


So in that case, it wouldn't so much be creating sociopathic behaviour- as "removing civilized behaviour"?

Or "having a markedly different set of values".

mangosta71
2011-01-07, 01:19 PM
...consider how we treat sociopaths themselves in this fashion (as non-persons)...
Our treatment of sociopaths is sociopathic. Delicious, delicious irony.