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SynissterSyster
2011-01-03, 01:39 PM
Greetings and Salutations!

I come to you all of Giant to ask about some fluff in a game I am in. First off I know that DMs can make fluff as they see fit but I have some confusion. See the DM made a full out undead campaign. We are to destroy undead and save the town/city/what have you. Anywho he has ruled it, for the most part, Core only game, have to be good, and only cleric or paladin class. For going the complications of having 3 clerics and one pally so far (I have not yet made my character).

The group consists of a Half Orc Cleric of Heronious, a Paladin of Heronious, a Cleric of Boccob, and a Cleric of Pelor. All of these are fine choices. My question is would the Pelorian cleric willingly be in a group with a "good" aligned lich that, by way of DM thinking, is still flowing with negative energy? Wouldn't the Pelorian cleric want to save the lich by freeing him or not even go with said lich as it would be an abomination to Pelor and life in general? Thanks in advance.

Heliomance
2011-01-03, 01:42 PM
In this setting, is negative energy inherently evil?

If not, probably no problem - though I imagine he would be suspicious of a lich claiming to be good until said lich proved himself.

If yes, that causes some issues with other spells.

Grelna the Blue
2011-01-03, 01:50 PM
Technically, the process of becoming a lich is horrifically evil. So, in general, no. A lich could normally be neutral at the very very best.

However, if the GM has ruled that there is, in fact, a good lich, then sure--why not travel with it? In that case, though, the GM would probably be better off saying that the lich was one of the deathless (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/deathless), not a lich of the standard variety. Unless of course the GM wanted to go through the entire list of evil-aligned necromantic spells (and there are plenty of them) stating which ones were still evil and which were not. Sounds like a pain.

Psyren
2011-01-03, 01:57 PM
The trouble with core-only games is that they tend to be a little too narrow, unless your group is willing to houserule or invent its own fluff to cover the gaps. "The process of becoming a Lich is unspeakably evil and must be willing" is one example.

Stepping outside of core to Libris Mortis (which in all honesty could benefit an undead-heavy campaign for many other reasons), allows you to use the Good-aligned Lich variant on pg. 156.

Heliomance
2011-01-03, 02:36 PM
Technically, the process of becoming a lich is horrifically evil. So, in general, no. A lich could normally be neutral at the very very best.

There is such a thing as a change of heart.

Mordokai
2011-01-03, 02:50 PM
There is such a thing as a change of heart.

Not with liches. Unless you're one of the good ones, which is basically just fluff change, but that's the way you get it, becoming a lich cements you deeply in the evil and there's pretty much no way for you coming out of it, save DM fiat.

As for being good lich... there are baelnorns (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich). If your campaign is set in FR, that's one way to go.

Grelna the Blue
2011-01-03, 02:52 PM
There is such a thing as a change of heart.

Yes, assuming you've got one. If a lich in your game is completely capable of the full spectrum of human emotion, I concede your point.

However, if you're arguing that an evil lich (who has already put its soul in a box or gem somewhere) could come via Kantian logic to a good alignment, I would respond that such a change would require a Kantian "good will" that is debarred by the fact of it being a lich who sacrificed a dozen elven children (or whatever the ritual requires in your world) to gain its version of immortality.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:54 PM
Baelnorns and Archliches are both in Monsters of Faerun.

"Good Liches" are in Libris Mortis.

A lich which has become a lich via other processes than the "unspeakably evil" method might become one of these 3.

Otherwise- I think the undead-ness might be a part of what makes them resistant to change. In Open Grave (4E) it stresses liches tend to do the same thing for all eternity- their minds tend to be pretty fixed.

Psyren
2011-01-03, 02:59 PM
There is such a thing as a change of heart.

Yes, assuming you've got one.


Ba-dum-tish

(seriously though... Libris Mortis 156)

SynissterSyster
2011-01-03, 03:02 PM
Quick ploy summery, from what I remember. Group is sent to some island in a lake that has a mess of evil undead that have WMD's (a huge ballista). Every group sent so far has failed and/or died. One group of clerics made some head way but most of the died. One stayed behind and was aged like 30+ years. He is helped by "good" undead. Our group arrives and makes it to the haven that one cleric provides. A lich comes with us, apparently he is stuck forever to roam the island, as DMPC or a helper or something.

Anywho DM never did state if negative energy is evil by nature but in the past he made it that undead are very evil so hence my confusion. Also the DM has no clue what Deathless is because he sticks mostly to Core.

JBento
2011-01-03, 03:32 PM
Deathless are an utterly ridiculous invention from Eberron, and are undead powered by positive energy, which makes no sense, not even if a cleric did it. I suggest that you let your DM continue in blissful ignorance of this particular topic, as well in whatever madness comes from the Forgotten Realms setting (Initiate of Mystra and the WHOLE of Serpent Kingdoms, I'm looking at you).

From base Core, negative energy is not Evil (because Harm is pretty much "here, have craploads of negative energy" and it isn't Evil).

Heliomance
2011-01-03, 03:38 PM
I don't find deathless to be ridiculous. Do you think the Ghost Martyrs of the Sapphire Guild are ridiculous? They're essentially deathless.

Also, deathless were around before Eberron. They're in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 04:15 PM
Deathless are an utterly ridiculous invention from Eberron, and are undead powered by positive energy, which makes no sense, not even if a cleric did it.

Actually "undead powered by positive energy" predates 3.0 considerably- as I recall, mummies in earlier editions were powered by positive rather than negative energy.

Then 3.0 came along and they all got negative energy as their power source.
Until BoED came along and restored the concept.

JBento
2011-01-03, 04:44 PM
Eberron (the contest version, though not the book) predates BoED by one year. I couldn't say which one came up with Deathless first.

I can't recall which way mummies go (heh)... though I really should.

The GMSG are awesome - but then again, so is Belkar, and I dare you to make him work in a real game with a Good-aligned party.

Positive energy-animated corpses just... make no sense. Positive energy fills you with life, so you either don't die, or blow up (ah, good times).

Psyren
2011-01-03, 04:49 PM
Positive energy-animated corpses just... make no sense. Positive energy fills you with life, so you either don't die, or blow up (ah, good times).

How does that make less sense than negative energy being able to animate things? :smallconfused:

I mean... it's negative. Less than zero. If anything, a negative energy corpse should just lie there motionless but drain anyone that touches it, not run around wanting blood/brains/Bella Swan.

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 04:53 PM
The book postdates BoED by quite a bit though-

so it depends on whether the BoED writers had read the info supplied in the contest entry, or not.

The Ravid in MM (positive energy outsider), has objects around it animate, at random- possibly because of its positive energy.

So, in that sense, a deathless body- may be akin to an animated object- only it's a soul that is doing it- acting as a conduit to the Positive Energy plane- and controlling the animated body.

Souls seem to have a connection to the Positive Energy Plane. In Magic of Incarnum, the Bastion of Unborn Souls- where souls come into being on treelike objects- is on the Positive Energy Plane.

JBento
2011-01-03, 04:54 PM
Granted. I relent. :smallsmile:

Also, I'm of half a mind to ask what is a Bella Swan, but I'm afraid it has something to do with that series about guys who use too much body glitter, so I won't. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 04:59 PM
Also, I'm of half a mind to ask what is a Bella Swan, but I'm afraid it has something to do with that series about guys who use too much body glitter, so I won't. :smalltongue:

She is indeed the protagonist.

I'm not sure how earlier editions explained undead, I know their minds "existed on two planes at once" explaining why they couldn't be reached by magic.

I think it was something along the lines of the undead being a vortex to the negative energy plane, sucking out energy from the Material plane- and it was this drained energy that allowed it to function. Though that might have been Mimir.net.

it does mention in passing:
http://www.mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html

that at least some corporeal undead like vampires, have positive and negative energy reactions- and need to steal positive energy to keep functioning.

JBento
2011-01-03, 05:09 PM
Negative energy seems to be all over the place in 3.5, though. It's not Evil, but mindless undead are.

OTOH, that might be due to the alignment system being wonky.
Slavery is Evil. But golems aren't.
Murder is Evil. Except when done to Evil creatures. Or maybe not. Who knows?
It's madness. MADNESS!!!!! Except the alignment system can't be madness - that's the Far Realm (which may or may not be the place of origin of the illithid, depending on who you ask, including the illithid themsleves). Unless... the people who came up with the alignment system ARE from the Far Realm? :smalleek:

On second thought, that'd explain a lot of the WotC game material... :smallconfused: