Perhaps Haley would've been better of with a bluff.

[Commander672]

Haley assumed that Elan's 'authority' would be enough to see them past the guards. But why go with the "Random Inspection" idea?

Why not just tell them "He [Elan] is the Son of the General -YOUR boss- and we demand an escort into the dungeon. We wish to see all your prisoners over the age of 40."

The Guards can't ask questions becouse he's Tarquin's son, and he can do whatever he well pleases. It is unlikly Tarquin has informed the guards of Elan's rebellion becouse he either doesn't know the signifigance of Tyrania and the ransom's connection to Elan, or doesn't care.

Hell, they couldn't complain either becouse he would be going under escort anyways. They could practicly tell the truth (leaving out the fight of course).

[MoonCat]

When Haley panics, she lies.
This is the basic idea that explains any easily averted trouble that she got ito by lying.
This is why the OoTS is still a team of semi-trained quasi-professionals.
Here is the rest of the Order's
When Elan panics, he tries to act in a way natural to the story he is in. He also acts stupid.
When Vaarsuvius panics, he attempts to prove himself above the problem to the universe.
When Roy panics, he snarks, and makes choices based on personal preferences, rather than that of the teams.
When Durkon panics, he clings to his best means of support, honorability, and rules.
When Belkar panics, or for any other reason, he goes on a killing rampage. :smalltongue:

[Orzel]

Nah. Haley would have made a more realistic but less convincing lie. Something more beleivable to be true but less likely to grant access. The response would be "That is true but I can't let you pass".. Then Haley'd get violent since the situation is too passionate for her to think of stealth.

This is a example of a Bluffproof situation due to Tarquin's planning. Nothing you could say would get you pass.

Unfortunately Elan is too stupid and Haley has too much passion to have thought of a plan to bypass the guards ahead of time.

Roy would have but he's locked up.
Belkar would have killed them one the spot.
No telling on V or Durkon because they aren't the "plan ahead of time" type, more damage control.

[Nimrod's Son]

While we're on the subject of how Haley could have done better, it might have been an idea for her to peg Redcloak with an arrow while he was escaping from Dorukan's dungeon. That would have really saved a whole lot of bother.

[NerfTW]

So you're assuming a guy who put a "There's no such thing as surprise inspections" portion in the manual wouldn't also put a "I will never send a new commander in without being with them" part as well?

Just think about it. The guard isn't even positive that it was Tarquin's son. A different "Do what I say" lie isn't going to go over any better. Especially since Tarquin is pretty genre savvy and would rather someone question his son than take some random blonde kid at his word.

[Thanatosia]

While we're on the subject of how Haley could have done better, it might have been an idea for her to peg Redcloak with an arrow while he was escaping from Dorukan's dungeon. That would have really saved a whole lot of bother.
I'm reasonably sure an Arrow, even if it crit for max damage, would hardly have jeopardized Redcloak's Life.

In fact, if the Order had made any significant attempt to prevent Redcloak and the MITD from escaping and forced a confrontation, i'm reasonably sure RC and MITD could have utterly demolished them. Basically the Order escaped Durokon's Dungeon alive because RC played it safe and vastly overestimated the Order on the basis of their gimick victory over Xykon. They had no reason to risk the phylactery, so they did'nt, but if push came to shove, they would have won.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm reasonably sure an Arrow, even if it crit for max damage, would hardly have jeopardized Redcloak's Life.
I'm reasonably sure your Argument, even if it crit for max damage, would have completely missed My Point. :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

Why would they listen to Tarquin's son? His last one was a public enemy!

[Morquard]

Why would they listen to Tarquin's son? His last one was a public enemy!

Because by now the entire state knows that THIS one is a different son. He got a banquet and a whole parade thrown in his honor - the biggest one in the countries history. I'm pretty positive that by now everyone knows that Tarquin's son is here, and is loved by his dad.

Also Nale fled BEFORE the Empire of Blood was formed, so technically he never had anything to do with them.

[Swordpriest]

Or, Haley could have just walked up to them and pummeled them into unconsciousness with subdual damage. There's no way a couple of mooks like that could last more than a round or two against a pair of upper-mid-level PCs. Then there's no moral dilemma, since they're only unconscious and (probably) tied up, Haley and Elan are past the guards, and all is well.


(Edited because of too many "they"s)

[Leecros]

Or, Haley could have just walked up to them and pummeled them into unconsciousness with subdual damage. There's no way a couple of mooks like that could last more than a round or two against a pair of upper-mid-level PCs. Then there's no moral dilemma, since they're only unconscious and (probably) tied up, Haley and Elan are past the guards, and all is well.

that's almost as obvious as 'surprise inspections'



just saying...

[Swordpriest]

that's almost as obvious as 'surprise inspections'



just saying...

Yes, it's obvious. But it also gets them inside fast and probably without raising the alarm. Isn't that what they're trying to do? Or am I missing your point entirely (which is probably the case)? :smallconfused:

[Leecros]

Yes, it's obvious. But it also gets them inside fast and probably without raising the alarm. Isn't that what they're trying to do? Or am I missing your point entirely (which is probably the case)? :smallconfused:

knocking out the guards while sneaking in probably used more than the 'surprise inspections' line. I can't believe that Tarquin wouldn't have something in place to catch people who do that too...

[Morquard]

Well their idea was sneaking in and not meeting any guards in the first place.
That didn't work and the guards knew then, so sneak attacking them from the shadows was out of the question.

Obvious or not... well you know freeing prisoners is also somewhat obvious. Especially since I have the feeling Haley won't say "Roy, Belkar and Dad you come with us, the rest of you stay in the cell and we lock you up again... oh and uncle Geoff, you come too of course", but would instead free all the prisoners she can get to.

[Swordpriest]

knocking out the guards while sneaking in probably used more than the 'surprise inspections' line. I can't believe that Tarquin wouldn't have something in place to catch people who do that too...

In short, there's no way into the jail, because Tarquin's already thought of everything, and no matter what they do, they fail. If they'd managed to sneak in, he surely would have had something in place for people who had snuck inside. If he's that good, then they're doomed no matter what they try -- I hope that Tarquin isn't that good, because it would get as dull as having everything succeed for the heroes every time.

[Leecros]

In short, there's no way into the jail, because Tarquin's already thought of everything, and no matter what they do, they fail. If they'd managed to sneak in, he surely would have had something in place for people who had snuck inside. If he's that good, then they're doomed no matter what they try -- I hope that Tarquin isn't that good, because it would get as dull as having everything succeed for the heroes every time.

there's a difference between no way and no obvious way.

When dealing with someone as Genre-Savvy as Tarquin, one needs to do something unexpected. Although making a Jail with no easy way in is not difficult. It's not a sign of brilliance, just common sense and i facepalm when i watch a film where people sneak/bluff/do something else to break into a jail with relative ease....outside of a full frontal assault (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html).

[NerfTW]

Haley and V probably could have snuck in on their own, just like when they freed the slaves. The issue here is that she took Elan, who is terrible at sneaking.

Of course, that's assuming the guards just don't have ridiculous spot checks.


Haley got impatient and acted alone, rather than seeking help from the others or even just ASKING Tarquin to release her father as a gift to Elan. This is an ongoing and constant character flaw of hers, her refusal to ask others for help. Yes, maybe through some convoluted sequence of events she could have gotten in and out, but that's not the point. She acted irrationally and without considering all the options, and is now facing consequences due to it.

Remember that the team just spent a year apart, with her acting mostly alone. She is going to need to relearn how to work with a team of powerful PCs again. Not everything is plot progression, some of it is character development.

[Swordpriest]

Haley got impatient and acted alone, rather than seeking help from the others or even just ASKING Tarquin to release her father as a gift to Elan.

Considering that Tarquin's last "gift" to Elan was thirty people being burned alive for the "crime" of wanting to be free, I don't know that I'd tell him, either. He's obviously trying to deliberately set up conflict between Elan and himself to turn reality into his own melodramatic tale, so what better way to cement that than to give Elan a gift of his lady friend's father -- or rather, of his lady friend's father's head?

My personal opinion is that asking Tarquin to release Ian would be an immediate death sentence for the latter, simply because Tarquin wouldn't be able to resist the dramatic possibilities.

[The Pilgrim]

Haley and V probably could have snuck in on their own, just like when they freed the slaves. The issue here is that she took Elan, who is terrible at sneaking.

He is not so terrible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html) when the plot doesn't require him to blow a sneak check.

Even then, Elan could have just disguised self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html) as his father (think about the epic circumstance bonus he would have got for looking exactly like him). But then, again, the plot must flow.

[Commander672]

So you're assuming a guy who put a "There's no such thing as surprise inspections" portion in the manual wouldn't also put a "I will never send a new commander in without being with them" part as well?

Just think about it. The guard isn't even positive that it was Tarquin's son. A different "Do what I say" lie isn't going to go over any better. Especially since Tarquin is pretty genre savvy and would rather someone question his son than take some random blonde kid at his word.

Not as a new commander, but AS YOUR KING (Metaphoricly). If Elan wanted to play the 'as your new commander' card, they would need the gaurd gettup.

[NerfTW]

That really doesn't change the basic issue that Tarquin would likely have a part in the manual saying "Until I personally show up and tell you to follow somebody's orders, don't listen to them, even if they're my long lost son".

Him being a future king (which he's not, the red dragon is Queen) doesn't mean squat, any more than being a future commander or a "surpise inspector". The whole point of the strip was to make fun of the idea that highly trained guards wouldn't question someone who shows up out of the blue. Tarquin is genre savvy enough to not punish his soldiers for doing their job properly.

edit- Also, Tarquin isn't king, he's a general.

[G-Man Graves]

I'm reasonably sure your Argument, even if it crit for max damage, would have completely missed My Point. :smalltongue:

I'm reasonably sure your example, even if it crit for max damage, wouldn't work because it wasn't a viable alternative.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm reasonably sure your example, even if it crit for max damage, wouldn't work because it wasn't a viable alternative.
:smallsigh:

It might have been. The arrow needn't have killed him, just inconvenienced him sufficiently to turn the tide. There is no way anyone can say that the Order had literally no chance of stopping Redcloak's escape, particularly given the events that had just transpired. I had hoped that it would be obvious that I wasn't pinning all the blame on his escape on Haley, but apparently not.

All of which, of course, is utterly tangental to the point I was trying to make in my usual roundabout way: that it's pretty pointless suggesting alternative options to characters' perceived failures with the benefit of hindsight. The comic is about the trouble the characters get themselves into, after all.

Of course in a perfect world Haley might have thought of a better way of getting past the guards. She might even have thought of one the very second the guard called their bluff. Too late by then, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY_oKve-bH0

[Thanatosia]

:smallsigh:
It might have been. The arrow needn't have killed him, just inconvenienced him sufficiently to turn the tide. There is no way anyone can say that the Order had literally no chance of stopping Redcloak's escape, particularly given the events that had just transpired.
To continue the side argument that appearantly has nothing to do with the main thrust of this thread other then being offered as a sarcastic statement, I would say that the odds of the order preventing Redlcloaks escape would be pretty close to nill short of Rich really wanting them to for some plot reason and using egregious power of plot abuse.

[Dazdya]

Actually, it's not Haley who would have thought of the best idea. I have no doubt that Elan would see the dramatic possibilities of disguising himself as his father. Maybe he has even learned to use his illusions for that now.

[Nimrod's Son]

To continue the side argument that appearantly has nothing to do with the main thrust of this thread other then being offered as a sarcastic statement,
There's no "apparently" about it. :smallwink:


I would say that the odds of the order preventing Redlcloaks escape would be pretty close to nill short of Rich really wanting them to for some plot reason and using egregious power of plot abuse.
Plot trumps rules every single time. Which, as I noted, was precisely what happened against Xykon just minutes earlier. There's just no way of saying whether or not the Order could have pulled such a fluke a second time.

[LuPuWei]

There's no "apparently" about it. :smallwink:


Plot trumps rules every single time. Which, as I noted, was precisely what happened against Xykon just minutes earlier. There's just no way of saying whether or not the Order could have pulled such a fluke a second time.

Are we that sure that all six members of the Order couldn't beat Redcloak all by his lonesome? (throw in the MitD and its one sided for sure, barring flukes, I'd say)

[Firemeier]

Plot trumps rules every single time.

It does. In the end the answer to every OotS related question boils down to 'Because the Giant wanted it to happen that way'. And yet, this is also the most unsatisfying and boring answer possible.

As the Giant noted in the commentaries on Dungeon Crawlin Fools, any fantasy world needs an inherent coherence to keep up the suspension of disbelief. So, imho it's perfectly legitimate to ask why Haley didn't use a more sophisticated response. And the answer to that can either be 'Because the Giant wanted it to happen that way' or


Haley got impatient and acted alone, rather than seeking help from the others or even just ASKING Tarquin to release her father as a gift to Elan. This is an ongoing and constant character flaw of hers, her refusal to ask others for help. Yes, maybe through some convoluted sequence of events she could have gotten in and out, but that's not the point. She acted irrationally and without considering all the options, and is now facing consequences due to it.

Remember that the team just spent a year apart, with her acting mostly alone. She is going to need to relearn how to work with a team of powerful PCs again. Not everything is plot progression, some of it is character development.

Works just as well without resorting to some meta argument-to-end-all-arguments.

And nobody claimed that it would improve the comic's quality, had Haley used a cleverer bluff. Just that better results would have been possible in-world. Which is almost self-evident with the power of hindsight.

[RMS Oceanic]

I thought the surprise inspection was a bluff. It's just that Tarquin's manual gave the guards +20 to sense motive.

[Commander672]

Him being a future king (which he's not, the red dragon is Queen) doesn't mean squat, any more than being a future commander or a "surpise inspector". The whole point of the strip was to make fun of the idea that highly trained guards wouldn't question someone who shows up out of the blue. Tarquin is genre savvy enough to not punish his soldiers for doing their job properly.

edit- Also, Tarquin isn't king, he's a general.

I said METAPHORICLY! As in not really, but close. Metaphore, a comparison without the terms 'Like' or 'As'. For example, "This gas station is crap."

[NerfTW]

Not as a new commander, but AS YOUR KING (Metaphoricly). If Elan wanted to play the 'as your new commander' card, they would need the gaurd gettup.


I said METAPHORICLY! As in not really, but close. Metaphore, a comparison without the terms 'Like' or 'As'. For example, "This gas station is crap."

You said "not as a new commander", which is what Tarquin is. A commander. Your comment implies that Elan would be something higher than a commander, which he wouldn't. He'd be a commander as well.

[Swordpriest]

Well, they've exhausted bluffing, sneaking, and force. It looks like it's time to turn to magic. :smallsmile:

[Commander672]

No, what I mean is not in the way of a commander to a private, but as a noble to a peasant.

Ok, let's put it this way: In the Australian show The Chaser, a couple of Pranksters dress up a bunch of cars to look like Canadian representatives. They managed to bypass three or four different security gates before finally exposing their mascarade to security. Had they been terrorists this trick would've put them within bombing distance of the US President. They didn't even faked any paperwork. They just looked official and the Guards accepted it.

Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdnAaQ0n5-8&feature=fvst

How did they do it? Well, they basicly pulled the same stunt I suggested here. I looked it up and TVtropes calls it the Bavarian Fire Drill. However, unlike the trope, Elan acually has the looks and autority to back it up.

[slayerx]

Haley assumed that Elan's 'authority' would be enough to see them past the guards. But why go with the "Random Inspection" idea?

Why not just tell them "He [Elan] is the Son of the General -YOUR boss- and we demand an escort into the dungeon. We wish to see all your prisoners over the age of 40."

The Guards can't ask questions becouse he's Tarquin's son, and he can do whatever he well pleases. It is unlikly Tarquin has informed the guards of Elan's rebellion becouse he either doesn't know the signifigance of Tyrania and the ransom's connection to Elan, or doesn't care.

Hell, they couldn't complain either becouse he would be going under escort anyways. They could practicly tell the truth (leaving out the fight of course).
That is unless Tarquin has a note in the employee manual covering "intruders that might try to pass themselves off as authority figures".... afterall it is another common trope in these kinds of situation...

[LuPuWei]

No, what I mean is not in the way of a commander to a private, but as a noble to a peasant.

Ok, let's put it this way: In the Australian show The Chaser, a couple of Pranksters dress up a bunch of cars to look like Canadian representatives. They managed to bypass three or four different security gates before finally exposing their mascarade to security. Had they been terrorists this trick would've put them within bombing distance of the US President. They didn't even faked any paperwork. They just looked official and the Guards accepted it.

Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdnAaQ0n5-8&feature=fvst

How did they do it? Well, they basicly pulled the same stunt I suggested here. I looked it up and TVtropes calls it the Bavarian Fire Drill. However, unlike the trope, Elan acually has the looks and autority to back it up.

Pure awesomeness...

[Psyren]

Haley WAS bluffing. The part about Elan being Tarquin's son is true, but the part about him being put in charge of the prisons was a lie. She merely opened with the truth first to make her bluff more plausible (circumstance bonus.)

The problem is that Tarquin anticipated her and provided his guards with a manual - giving them a massive circumstance bonus on Sense Motive in mechanical terms. They won the opposed check and our heroes were forced inito retreat.

[G-Man Graves]

So I think the answer appears to be "Yes. Yes, Haley would be better with a bluff."

[NerfTW]

No, what I mean is not in the way of a commander to a private, but as a noble to a peasant.


But... it IS COMMANDER TO A PRIVATE. THOSE ARE THEIR ACTUAL RANKS.

[Orzel]

So I think the answer appears to be "Yes. Yes, Haley would be better with a bluff."

Magic item for +30 to check. Doesn't count.

Even Elan could have make those checks. Elan could have thought of "Aha, you passed my test.". Common cliche.

[Commander672]

But... it IS COMMANDER TO A PRIVATE. THOSE ARE THEIR ACTUAL RANKS.

Only in the Navy. And were in a Medieval setting, remember? Even if were not going be US ranks we'd still be useing a very fluid command system of "Im richer than you, so I'm in charge."

[MoonCat]

Is this thread necessary anymore? Although it's nice to see that her Buff worked this time

[tiercel]

Although this is about #766, and now we've seen what Haley can do with Bluff when she has an insane bonus on, I think the OP's point is valid... but, arguably, not really (just) a bluff.

Ordering guards what to do on the basis of raw authority is a thinly veiled threat, and arguably more the territory of Intimidate than Bluff (or possibly a joint skill check), and while Bluff is Haley's style, Intimidate is not so much.

[snikrept]

Why would they listen to Tarquin's son? His last one was a public enemy!

Was he though? I sort of got the impression that it was a palace coup and nobody among the populace really knows about it. Consider - when Gannji and Enor brought in "Nale" to collect the bounty, the Kobold in charge of bounties didn't even remember him, after he'd read the file.

[Thanatosia]

Ordering guards what to do on the basis of raw authority is a thinly veiled threat, and arguably more the territory of Intimidate than Bluff (or possibly a joint skill check), and while Bluff is Haley's style, Intimidate is not so much.
personally, when there is an unusually debatable greyspace between which social skill is more applicable to the situation, I'd let my players use whichever skill they wish to invoke. I could see a legitimate case for what she is doing as Intimidation, but it's also a bluff.... so I'd probably allow either skill to work rather then trying to box in every particular social function into a neat little box that defines it.

If you really forced me to nail it down this particular case though, I'd consider it a bluff. The key aspect to rather the guards act the way Halley wants them to act is based on making them believe something that is not true. Intimidation would be more in order if there was no question that Halley & Elan had the position of authority but the guards had some reason to resist her instructions in spite of recognizing that authority. If for example, the guards were bribed by Malak to assassinate Tarquins son if they had the chance then an appeal to Elans Authority as Tarquins Son would be irrelivent to making them leave Elan alone and let him go on his way - the deception aspect becomes immaterial and now using Elan's Percieved authority (and personal strength to resist them) to get them to leave him alone becomes a matter of intimidation rather then bluffing them into believing he has the authority.

In general, I find the Bluff and Intimidate skills tend to overlap pretty heavily in practical applications. It all depends on what direction you desire to take with them..... do you try to get your way by making the target to believe something that is not true, or do you try to get your way by making the target afraid to resist you no matter what is true or untrue? halley's Bluff in the most recent strip seems to belong in the first case more then the latter.