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Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 03:23 PM
So, I've been toying with a concept lately for making a pretty beastly Azurin Soul Manifester blaster. The Mind's Eye web enhancement has Soul Manifester and a couple other really neat abilities that could make things fun.

I was thinking of going Incarnate2/Ardent3/SoulManifester10, with Practiced Manifester at 3rd to immediately open up 2nd level powers. Other toys would include Midnight Augmentation, Expanded Essentia Capacity (to boost Midnight Augementation), Azure Talent (to qualify for Soul Manifester), and of course Psycarnum Infusion. I'll probably go with the Energy mantle, and then 2 other mantles I haven't decided on, but probably the Freedom mantle to get Hustle for faster focus recovery. I'd really like to abuse Energy Stun as my main weapon, which the Energy mantle doesn't have, but I might be able to swing Mantle Substitution since Energy Stun certainly fits the theme of the mantle. There are a couple of soulmelds in that web article that would work, like the one that adds damage when you blast. If you bind it to your throat, it can daze people. That means that Energy Stun would have 2 save, one for stun and one for daze, making it a triple threat.

So...think this'll work ok? Any major flaws other than the fact that its looking very feat intensive to work?

Also, how does Azure Talent interact with Psycarnum Infusion? I mean, you fill it up for a round, get a bunch of PP, then...what? What happens if you don't use them? What happens if you DO use them, and then use Psycarnum Infusion again? Is this a potentially infinte wellspring of PP?

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 04:09 PM
RAW issues of which I am aware:

1. Whether PM can allow you to get higher level powers at Ardent level 1 (as opposed to any later levels, where it clearly can). The RAW seems to say you must take 1st level powers at level one. IMO, this is a case of poorly written RAW, and I'd apply the basic Ardent rule (any power you can manifest) at 1st level, the same as any other level. :smallsmile:

2. Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent: while it's been hotly debated, I think the "once per day" language of Azure Talent bars this from being a source of recurring pp. :smalltongue: You might convince a GM otherwise, but you'd need either a high-powered game or gullible GM, as this is basically free manifesting up to 10 pp for two feats and the expenditure of your focus. (12 pp, if you take Improved Essentia Capacity.)

EDIT: while it will cost you meldshaper levels, Ardent 10 can net you the Dominant Ideal ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). Really, does it get any better for a psionic than that??

Also, just to state the obvious-what-you-already know: Midnight Augmentation is much, much better than Midnight Metamagic, without even needing to delve into the "once-per-day" debates.

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 04:22 PM
I don't remember seeing any 1st level language in CPsi, I'll check further on it when I get home. I figured that following the level up steps near the start of the PHB would be appropriate. First you pick your class, then you get your feats, skills, etc, and the last thing that happens is that you get your class features. So you'd get Practiced Manifester before you pick your Powers Known. If you are right and there is 1st level text, thats fine...I'll just nab Dim Hop and maybe Astral Construct? Hmmmm, that means Energy would be a minor Mantle at 2nd though...which is a problem since that's the one I wanted to draw most powers from. Hmmmmmm, how would I get this to work?

As for Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion, I'm seeing that. So...basically, if you have Psycarnum Infusion, Azure Talent would give you the max number of PP it can give without needing to tie up any essentia in it? I mean, its just a couple extra PP. The constant refilling thing would be a bit much, especially out of combat.

I was thinking of trying to tie in Earth Power to further increase my effective ML (by reducing Augement costs), but thats another 2 feats I just don't have, not even with flaws! Especially since I'm thinking it would be a good idea to take EK: Psionic Open Chakra at 9th level, which, combined with Midnight Augement and Soul Manifester's Psionic Endowment abilities and a Torc of Power Preservation and a few other tricks should let me pry open my Throat chakra 5-6 levels early, which is dang convenient!

EDIT: Oh yes, I'm WELL aware of how amazing Midnight Augment is. On a level 6 character, I was looking at being able to create a 5th level Astral Construct with JUST MA. With a couple other tricks, I think I could get a 7th level Astral Construct so I could poach off menu C...at level 6. A 6th level character bringing a 13 HD battle tank to the table is pretty...awesome!

EDIT EDIT: Dominant Ideal is REALLY good, but I don't know how I can squeeze it in before it's too late. I mean, if I ended the build with Incarnate2/Ardent10/SoulManifester8, it would be ok, but I think I'd want at least 5 levels of SM before heading back into Ardent. That means I'd get Dominant Ideal at level 17, which is...yea...the game pretty much stops working correctly at that point.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: I don't think my alignment would matter too much, as with only 2 Incarnate levels, I wouldn't have Incarnum Radiance yet, and I don't plan on taking any aligned soulmelds. I'd probably go with NG or LN, simply because I don't play evil and CN sounds too...yea...

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 05:27 PM
BTW: Isn't using EK for a power an admission of defeat? With substitute powers, surely you can come up with some justification as to why Psionic Open Chakra should be in at least one of your mantles, esp. considering that you're a SM.
Double post, so this idea will stand out:

Life Mantle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a)Why shouldn't Psionic Open Chakra - a power dealing with soul stuff - be part of this mantle?

And look, we get a two-fer: taking this mantle, you can get an extra +1 ML manifesting powers from the mantle. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, crapsa! I just killed my lengthy other response. I am an idiot. :smalleek:

Psyren
2011-01-04, 05:40 PM
I agree with Stegyre's interpretation on Ardents and 1st-level powers - Not that it really matters all that much, because there are damn good 1st-level powers you can take (e.g. the aforementioned Astral Construct, or Energy Ray and Vigor for the more blasty build.)

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 05:45 PM
Well, I only have 3 mantles to play with until ~15. I need Energy to...power the concept. I'd like Creation, but probably as a minor power, since Astral Constructs are just plain fun. My 3rd mantle, I was really looking at taking Freedom. Dim Hop is WAY too good, Hustle is great with Psionic Meditation to recover your focus as a swift action for the cost of 3 PP, and Psionic Fly + Psionic Teleport are icing on a delicious cake. I guess I could take Life as my minor mantle, and as a bonus that would give me access to Open Chakra at level 7, which, with augment reductions could probably hit ML13 needed to open lesser chakra slots. Thats sexy.

Psyren
2011-01-04, 06:00 PM
Put the incarnum powers in Creation; that's Incarnum's whole schtick.

Mantle Substitution says to end up at 10 powers, and Creation has 6, giving you 4 empty slots. The powers don't have to be spread out evenly across all 9 levels either. (In fact, there are no mantles that have powers like that - Life, Law and Time come closest I think.)

If you need more (I forget how many incarnum powers there are) just swap out minor creation, fabricate etc.

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 06:10 PM
True, Creation would kinda cover the Open Chakra schtick. It does only have 6 powers...hmmmmm, very nice...

Any other thoughts? Should I just abandon the whole blasting idea and just focus on creating really badass Astral Constructs? I mean, I could drop another 2 feats on Overchannel and Talented, I could get like +7-10 free MLs worth of augement reduction at low-mid levels easily.

Dropping a level 9 Astral Construct at level 8 or so wouldn't be hard to do, and a level 9 AC WILL pretty much mop up the floor with most things.

Too much?

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 06:12 PM
Recreating my previous post. :smallredface:


I don't remember seeing any 1st level language in CPsi, I'll check further on it when I get home.
Here's the relevant language from CPsi, page 7:

An ardent begins play knowing two of the first powers available to her based on her choice of mantles. Eahc mantle features at least one power or ability with a cost of 1 power point. An ardent selects two of these powers from her two known mantles at 1st level.
The oh-so-choice language about ardents selecting later powers based on their ability to manifest comes in the next paragraph and is specific to "each additional level."

Like I said, I'd abrogate that restriction, but the RAW is unfavorable.


As for Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion, I'm seeing that. So...basically, if you have Psycarnum Infusion, Azure Talent would give you the max number of PP it can give without needing to tie up any essentia in it? I mean, its just a couple extra PP. The constant refilling thing would be a bit much, especially out of combat.
That's how I read it, and for only 10 extra pp, max, I doubt the feat is worth it. Get a cognizance crystal and you're almost as well off. (The only disadvantage is the single source rule.)


I was thinking of trying to tie in Earth Power to further increase my effective ML (by reducing Augement costs), but thats another 2 feats I just don't have, not even with flaws! Especially since I'm thinking it would be a good idea to take EK: Psionic Open Chakra at 9th level, which, combined with Midnight Augement and Soul Manifester's Psionic Endowment abilities and a Torc of Power Preservation and a few other tricks should let me pry open my Throat chakra 5-6 levels early, which is dang convenient!
I'm not going to redo my original math. I'll just say that at character level 12 (Incarnate 2 / Ardent 3 / Soul Manifester 7), this definitely works.

Now, let's do the math for making it earlier:

1. By ML/character level 8, Overchannel can give us +2, and we don't even need to spend a feat on it. We'll just borrow it for a few minutes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm). (Get a power stone or dorje with the power.)

2. As noted, get POC using Life Mantle, and have another +1 ML, manifesting it as a mantle power. (Must have focus. Midnight Augmentation requires expending focus, so we'll either need Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment, or an Elan with Elan Retainment. Either way, it seems this is a two-feat cost, as Elan requires you to forego the human bonus feat. This has me thinking that, while Life Mantle may be good to avoid spending a feat on EK, it may not be worth the +1 ML/focus, as you can get +3 ML/focus using MA+IEC.

3. Feat-expensive, but useful for multiple purposes: Metapower+Linked Power+some 1st level power with personal range. Putting POC into the second position, and you are getting an additional -2 to the cost. However, unless you have Dominant Ideal, this will require another expenditure of your focus, so you'd have to take both Psicrystal Containment and Elan Retainment (and by the time you have Dominant Ideal, you're at least ML 10, and probably don't need this trick) This is two feats for a 2 point increase, whereas MA+IEC is two feats for a 3 point increase, and it's an additoinal two feat cost to be able to do both (using either PA+PC or Elan+ER).

How many feats do we have to work with, anyway? Assuming you're between char. lvl 9 and 11 (because at 12, we don't need additional tricks), that's 4 from levels, 2 from flaws, 1 from human.
-1 for PM (required for virtually any ardent build)
-1 for MA
-1 for IEC . . . what else do you need or what is available for extra tricks?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-04, 06:13 PM
Don't bring the big guns till the S*** has hit the fan? You don't have to use your maximum augmented AC unless you really need someone dead now, or it is the last resource.

I would go with the blaster myself, because summoning (or creating) usually involves more book keeping than the one I am comfortable with.

Draz74
2011-01-04, 06:23 PM
I've heard a lot about Midnight Augmentation, but I'll admit using it baffles me.

The way the feat seems to be written to me, it reduces each augmentation of the power by a certain number of PP. That indeed sounds very powerful, then there are the two caveats: (1) each augmentation still adds +1 PP cost, minimum; and (2) the maximum PP discount is equal to the power's level.

I guess Astral Construct is indeed a good example of a power that synergizes with this feat well. Level 5 Constructs for only 5 PP is pretty cool. But ... hmmm. I guess my question is, are there any powers that benefit from investing a lot of essentia in Midnight Augmentation, rather than just investing one essentia and augmenting the power repeatedly? Temporal Acceleration is about the only one I've found that looks really awesome.

* * *

Are you going to be able to fit Psionic Meditation in this build, Keld? How about Overchannel/Talented? It's weird to think of a psionic blaster without the latter feats, but I guess with Midnight Augmentation it's doable.

What about Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, which will make you a much better blaster at very low levels (before your Ardent blasting gets going)? Could be a candidate for Psychic Reformation at a later point.

Have you decided whether you're going to cut meldshaping short (Soul Manifester 8 only?) to get Dominant Ideal?

This build concept is pretty cool. I want to see how it turns out.

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 06:28 PM
I'd also agree with putting meld-stuff into creation, and considering that Life Mantle costs your focus for only +1 ML, it maybe wasn't all that great of an idea, in retrospect.

More fun with the math:
At ML 7, Psionic Open Chakra, we can augment with
+3 from MA+IEC
+1 from Overchannel (at no feat cost), becomes +2 at ML 8
+1 from Torc
+1 from PI
There's your +6 for lesser chakras, at a feat cost of only 3 (PM, MA, IEC). :smallsmile:

Using no additional feats, I calculate you can open greater chakras at ML 10:
+3 from ML (10 minus 7)
+3 from MA+IEC
+2 from Overchannel
+1 from Torc
+1 from PI

Someone check my math. This could be useful.

Godskook
2011-01-04, 06:28 PM
Any other thoughts? Should I just abandon the whole blasting idea and just focus on creating really badass Astral Constructs? I mean, I could drop another 2 feats on Overchannel and Talented, I could get like +7-10 free MLs worth of augement reduction at low-mid levels easily.

Overchannel, as far as I can tell, does not provide the PP for the ML it provides, making it quite different from Wild Surge, which explicitly does.

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 06:38 PM
Godskook, doesn't matter. There are 2 ways to increases your "effective" ML. One is to reduce the cost of manifesting the power (see Midnight Augement, Torc of Power Preservation, Earth Power, etc), and the other is to increase your actual Manifester Level (see Overchannel, Life Mantle, Orange IWIN Stone, etc).

Stegyre, math looks good. Now I just have to figure out what would be good to put in those chakras. I do like having Throat open by level 10 tough. That daze adder on the website is pretty smexy. Slap that on Energy Stun for 2 saves vs screwed per nuke.

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 06:41 PM
I've heard a lot about Midnight Augmentation, but I'll admit using it baffles me.

The way the feat seems to be written to me, it reduces each augmentation of the power by a certain number of PP. That indeed sounds very powerful, then there are the two caveats: (1) each augmentation still adds +1 PP cost, minimum; and (2) the maximum PP discount is equal to the power's level.

I guess Astral Construct is indeed a good example of a power that synergizes with this feat well. Level 5 Constructs for only 5 PP is pretty cool.
Your point (2) is a good one that I too often forget, and it actually precludes the "Level 5 Constructs for only 5 pp": since Astral Construct is a 1st level power, MA can only reduce the augmentation cost by -1. :smallsigh:
(Thankfully, we don't encounter this problem with the 4th level Psionic Open Chakra.)

I'm not sure quite what you mean by point (1). It's true that MA cannot eliminate the final +1 of augmentation, but Keld is planning on having a Torc, which does not suffer from that limitation.

As for the augmentations themselves, to my understanding, they are not totalled up separately. For example, an Extended (+2) Psionic Charm augmented to last all day (+4) and augmented further to affect dragons/aberations/etc. (+4) has a total augmentation cost of 10, and MA would reduce that by 1 (since Psionic Charm is a 1st level power). It would not reduce it by -3 (Extended (+2-1), all day (+4-1), dragons (+4-1).


Overchannel, as far as I can tell, does not provide the PP for the ML it provides, making it quite different from Wild Surge, which explicitly does.
Overchannel won't save the pp, it's true, but at high levels, the increase to ML is probably more important, especially for powers like POC, where the increased ML can give you access to abilities much earlier than you're "supposed to."

EDIT: Darn me for an amatuer and not thoroughly reviewing my own summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127103): How about

Power Link shards (MoE 115): these do not actually reduce power point cost, but they do give a +2 pp augmentation boost, which may even exceed your ML limit.
(Although I think that requires Kalashtar.)

Yet another option, Dorje Mastery: put POC into a Dorje, already augmented as high as you can, and then use Dorje Mastery (ML 9) for a "free" +4 pp of augmentation! Because of the ML 9 requirement, this may only save you one class level, but still . . .

Draz74
2011-01-04, 06:48 PM
Your point (2) is a good one that I too often forget, and it actually precludes the "Level 5 Constructs for only 5 pp": since Astral Construct is a 1st level power, MA can only reduce the augmentation cost by -1. :smallsigh:
Depends whether the augmentations to Astral Construct are calculated separately, as I was picturing, or as a bundle, like you describe below. If it's the former, then the 5th-level Construct for 5 PP still works.


(Thankfully, we don't encounter this problem with the 4th level Psionic Open Chakra.)
Eventually you will, but meh. It's still a good combo.


I'm not sure quite what you mean by point (1). It's true that MA cannot eliminate the final +1 of augmentation, but Keld is planning on having a Torc, which does not suffer from that limitation.
I said that (1) was a big limitation because of powers like Energy Stun. If augmentations are affected separately by Midnight Augmentation, rather than in a bundle, then Midnight Augmentation is useless with (pre-CPsi version) Energy Stun, because each augmentation is already only 1 PP, and can't be reduced further. Again, this point goes out the window if augmentation costs are calculated as a lump sum.

Incidentally, if we're trying to stick to strict RAW (which we're probably not), then the crappy "updated" version of the Torc in MIC invalidates the XPH version of the item. Even if this isn't an issue, it's a good idea to spell out which version of the Torc you have in mind.


As for the augmentations themselves, to my understanding, they are not totalled up separately. For example, an Extended (+2) Psionic Charm augmented to last all day (+4) and augmented further to affect dragons/aberations/etc. (+4) has a total augmentation cost of 10, and MA would reduce that by 1 (since Psionic Charm is a 1st level power). It would not reduce it by -3 (Extended (+2-1), all day (+4-1), dragons (+4-1).
If that's true, I'm not sure if it makes Midnight Augmentation better or worse overall! :smallsmile:

Either way, is there a definitive ruling or consensus about which way the feat works?

Godskook
2011-01-04, 06:50 PM
Godskook, doesn't matter. There are 2 ways to increases your "effective" ML. One is to reduce the cost of manifesting the power (see Midnight Augement, Torc of Power Preservation, Earth Power, etc), and the other is to increase your actual Manifester Level (see Overchannel, Life Mantle, Orange IWIN Stone, etc).

Ah, I didn't understand what you were meaning by "augment reduction" then, so nevermind.

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 06:58 PM
The MIC Torc is available at a much earlier time than the XPH one. 12k is a bit large for a 6-7th level character to front, but 4k for the MIC Torc is very affordable. Sure, its only 5/day, but that gets you a couple of uses of Psionic Open Chakra, as well as a couple of extra dice on a boom or construct.

Since it doesn't have an attunement, you could just buy 2 or 3 and swap them out. Just a thought. 3 would give you 15 augments per day for the 12k pricetag that unlimited has.

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 07:03 PM
Depends whether the augmentations to Astral Construct are calculated separately, as I was picturing, or as a bundle, like you describe below. If it's the former, then the 5th-level Construct for 5 PP still works.
No, because you must expend your focus each time you use MA, so I don't think that it could ever work the way you describe.


Eventually you will, but meh.
Not until he reaches 18th level and has a maximum essentia capacity (including IEC) of 5. Keep in mind that you cannot endlessly invest essentia in melds or feats; you always have an absolute cap, determined by your character level, so for higher level powers, the reduction limitation of MA really isn't an issue.

But you are very right that it's a critical issue on the lower level powers.


Incidentally, if we're trying to stick to strict RAW (which we're probably not), then the crappy "updated" version of the Torc in MIC invalidates the XPH version of the item. Even if this isn't an issue, it's a good idea to spell out which version of the Torc you have in mind.
Sad but true (wrt the change in Torcs). However, for powers like POC, it doesn't really matter which version he has, because he only manifests it a small number of times per day: you only have so many chakras.
(And at the greatly reduced price of the new torc, you could have several for the same price as the old torc.)


Either way, is there a definitive ruling or consensus about which way the feat works?
Honestly, I don't think I've yet seen a discussion on this. As I said at the top of this post, I think the MA requirement that you expend your focus to get the augmentation precludes your interpretation (or makes it so it wouldn't do all that you want, even if that were the intention).

Anyone else have thoughts?

Psyren
2011-01-04, 07:07 PM
Overchannel, as far as I can tell, does not provide the PP for the ML it provides, making it quite different from Wild Surge, which explicitly does.

Correct - Overchannel does not help you pay for powers, it only raises the cap.

It's still good, but given that Ardents are already feat-starved and you're cramming the Psycarnum stuff in, I'd skip it (and Talented.)

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 07:10 PM
[G]iven that Ardents are already feat-starved and you're cramming the Psycarnum stuff in, I'd skip it (and Talented.)
And I still say, just borrow it. :smallwink:
It's not good enough to have around all the time, but it could be useful for special augmentations like POC.

Psyren
2011-01-04, 07:30 PM
And I still say, just borrow it. :smallwink:

Two problems here:

1) While RAW-legal, many DMs still frown on psicrystals getting feats.
2) Talented requires expending his focus as well, which puts it at odds with MA. This means he'll either have to go without and take damage or wait until he has a second focus (via Psicrystal Containment), which will let him use them both once before his foci must be regained.

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 08:40 PM
Gah, Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment...more stinkin feats to take.

Psyren
2011-01-04, 08:48 PM
Gah, Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment...more stinkin feats to take.

If your DM allows your psicrystal to gain feats then it is a very worthwhile investment. Ardents are the best class to maximize the potential of Feat Leech, and as a blaster you will want the versatility that metapsionics provide.

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 08:55 PM
BTW, this is the meld I was talking about.


Psychic Focus
Descriptors: None
Classes: Incarnate, soulborn
Chakra: Throat
Saving Throw: See text

A necklace of turquoise crystals fits around your neck. The crystals shed a faint glow that increases in brightness when you manifest a damaging power.

Drawing upon soul energy of those using psionics, meldshapers who manifest psionic powers can use the incarnum energy to intensify powers that cause harm to others.

You shape incarnum into a periapt or other trinket, known as a psychic focus, which you then wear about your neck. When you manifest a psionic powers that deal damage, your power's damage is increased by 1 point. Powers that divide their damage among multiple targets, such as energy burst, deal the extra damage to each affected target.

This soulmeld does not affect powers that do not deal damage.

Essentia: Every point of essentia you invest in your psychic focus increases the damage by 1 point.

Chakra Bind (Throat)

Barely visible wisps of incarnum writhe from your psychic focus, and these tendrils of soul energy twist into psionic glyphs as you manifest psionic powers. When you manifest a damaging power, the power is accompanied by a blue-green burst of raw incarnum energy.

The energy behind your offensive powers can temporarily overcome your opponents. Whenever you manifest a power that deals damage to a single living creature, that creature must succeed on a Fortitude save (using the soulmeld's save DC, not the power's) or be dazed for 1 round. If the power deals damage to more than one creature, or if the target creature takes no damage from the power (whether because of a successful saving throw, power resistance, or resistance to the damage dealt by the power), this has no effect.

Oh, crap. Neck slot. Yea, thats gonna cause problems with the Torc of Power Preservation...

Draz74
2011-01-04, 09:03 PM
Not until he reaches 18th level and has a maximum essentia capacity (including IEC) of 5.
That is indeed what I was referring to in my "eventually" comment.


No, because you must expend your focus each time you use MA, so I don't think that it could ever work the way you describe.

Honestly, I don't think I've yet seen a discussion on this. As I said at the top of this post, I think the MA requirement that you expend your focus to get the augmentation precludes your interpretation (or makes it so it wouldn't do all that you want, even if that were the intention).

Anyone else have thoughts?


If you expend your psionic focus when manifesting that power, the power point cost to augment that power is reduced by a value equal to the invested essentia.

Now that I reread the feat, I think what you're saying was probably the intended use, but I still think my version is a valid interpretation. I.e. "OK, I expend my focus while manifesting Astral Construct, and I have one essentia invested in Midnight Augmentation, so the power point cost to augment Astral Construct is reduced by one -- which means the cost to augment Astral Construct is now (2 - 1 = 1) one power point. So I'll pay four extra PP to augment the power four times."

At least, that's how I was reading it before.

Open Chakra wackiness notwithstanding, I think it's generally a pretty weak feat if it only reduces the cost of augmentation once per power.

Stegyre
2011-01-04, 09:59 PM
Now that I reread the feat, I think what you're saying was probably the intended use, but I still think my version is a valid interpretation. I.e. "OK, I expend my focus while manifesting Astral Construct, and I have one essentia invested in Midnight Augmentation, so the power point cost to augment Astral Construct is reduced by one -- which means the cost to augment Astral Construct is now (2 - 1 = 1) one power point. So I'll pay four extra PP to augment the power four times."
By that interpretation, however, one could also endlessly (well, up to pp/ML limits) pile on metapsionic feats, as well. I'd say your interpretation "proves too much." :smallwink:

Still, I am interested as to what others think on the subject.


Two problems here:

1) While RAW-legal, many DMs still frown on psicrystals getting feats.
2) Talented requires expending his focus as well, which puts it at odds with MA. This means he'll either have to go without and take damage or wait until he has a second focus (via Psicrystal Containment), which will let him use them both once before his foci must be regained.
Who said anything about a psicrystal, much less getting Talented into the bargain?
(Okay, I have mentioned psicrystals in this thread, but not in this context.)
With Feat Laech, the character can borrow Overchannel from anyone that has it. Does someone have a cohort? Have him spend a feat on OC. In town before heading off on an adventure? Find an NPC to borrow it from. Hard up to find any such PCs? Psychic Reform a commoner to have the feat; keep him on retainer.

We're talking (or at least, I am talking) only about having OC to get those extra few MLs needed for earlier POC usage. It may be nice for other uses, as well, but then its feat cost needs to be balanced against other feats a character could take. As to that balance, I agree that OC is not worth it.

Hence my suggestion to borrow. We can get a tasty, 24-hour benefit out of just a few rounds with this feat.

(And of course, for POC, Talented would be of no use at all.)

Psyren
2011-01-04, 10:06 PM
With Feat Laech, the character can borrow Overchannel from anyone that has it. Does someone have a cohort? Have him spend a feat on OC. In town before heading off on an adventure? Find an NPC to borrow it from. Hard up to find any such PCs? Psychic Reform a commoner to have the feat; keep him on retainer.


All of those alternatives are at least as DM-dependent as your psicrystal being allowed feats.

It's worth noting also that nothing actually prevents the Overchannel damage from forcing a concentration check to keep from losing the power. A Soul Manifester is bound to have a good Concentration modifier, but definitely something to keep in mind.



Open Chakra wackiness notwithstanding, I think it's generally a pretty weak feat if it only reduces the cost of augmentation once per power.

Is it? Earth Power costs TWO feats to lower your manifesting by 1 PP, and most people consider it worthwhile regardless. (For the record, I agree with your interpretation; just pointing that out.)

Godskook
2011-01-04, 10:09 PM
Oh, crap. Neck slot. Yea, thats gonna cause problems with the Torc of Power Preservation...

If your DM allows item combinations, an Incarnum Focus Torc of Power Preservation would solve that issue.

Draz74
2011-01-04, 11:36 PM
By that interpretation, however, one could also endlessly (well, up to pp/ML limits) pile on metapsionic feats, as well. I'd say your interpretation "proves too much." :smallwink:
While I am hesitant about my own interpretation, I fail to see how it could be extended to metapsionic feats. They don't say anything about augmentation costs in their text.


Is it? Earth Power costs TWO feats to lower your manifesting by 1 PP, and most people consider it worthwhile regardless.


I don't really think of Earth Power as a strong feat for most psionic builds. (At least not when it's actually two feats.)
Using Midnight Augmentation is a lot more costly than using Earth Power, both because it requires expending your psionic focus and because it requires essentia (which implies racial/feat/class level resources expended). It should have a greater effect than Earth Power.
Earth Power works on all your powers; Midnight Augmentation only works on one power (per day).



If your DM allows item combinations, an Incarnum Focus Torc of Power Preservation would solve that issue.

Oof, that's starting to get a lot more expensive, even if the DM is nice enough to wave the standard +50% cost of combining items. A cheaper option, though still painful, is to make a slotless custom version of the Torc by doubling its price. Of course the ideal solution is to take Split Chakra, but ... yeah. As if this build weren't feat-starved enough already. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2011-01-05, 12:00 AM
I don't really think of Earth Power as a strong feat for most psionic builds. (At least not when it's actually two feats.)
Using Midnight Augmentation is a lot more costly than using Earth Power, both because it requires expending your psionic focus and because it requires essentia (which implies racial/feat/class level resources expended). It should have a greater effect than Earth Power.
Earth Power works on all your powers; Midnight Augmentation only works on one power (per day).


1) It is indeed always two feats, as it requires the rather useless Earth Sense as a prereq.

2) This is a false opportunity cost, because you're going to spend those same resources anyway if you're choosing Soul Manifester to begin with. MA is thus a logical choice if you're already going that route.

3) You have a point with the psionic focus cost and the one power/day - though most manifesters I would wager have a signature power they call on each day that could benefit from cheaper augmentation.

EDIT: Stegyre helpfully reminded me that you must maintain your focus for Earth Power to function, making it even more of a wash. (You need a second focus for EP+Metapsi just as you would need one for MA+Metapsi.)

Stegyre
2011-01-05, 12:30 AM
All of those alternatives are at least as DM-dependent as your psicrystal being allowed feats.
Are they? Depending upon your character's ethics, you could kidnap any 1st level, human commoner (who has the requisite two feats), psireform to replace his first feat with Wild Talent (so he has pp and qualifies for psionic feats), and replace his second feat with Overchannel (which has no prerequisites except that it is a psionic feat). Feat Leech, and you're there!

Yes, a GM can just say, "No," but that's the Rule 0 "No": it applies to absolutely everything (and therefore proves absolutely nothing).

Things like feats for psicrystals, Leadership and cohorts, are more problematic either because there's some ambiguity in the rules (RAW certainly allows psicrystals to have feats, as they have an intelligence and hit dice, but did WotC actually intend that?) or they are so readily abusable that they are frequent subjects of the ban hammer to prevent any use (Leadership). What I am proposing is not nearly the same degree as either of these.


While I am hesitant about my own interpretation, I fail to see how it could be extended to metapsionic feats. They don't say anything about augmentation costs in their text.
What they say - universally - is that you must expend your focus to apply the metapsionic feat.

As I understand your own interpretation of similar language for Midnight Augmentation, you want to say that you expend it once in a round, and the augmentation cost reduction benefit will apply to any number of augmentations made to the power in that round.

By that same logic, expending a psionic focus once in a round would allow it to satisfy the requirement for all metapsionic feats that you wanted to apply to the power(s) you were manifesting that round. After all, in each instance, you have satisfied the requirement: you expended your focus.

Different topic: I'm just looking at the RAW for Earth Power, and I don't think you can use it in conjunction with MA, or with anything else that requires you to expend your focus, even if you have Elan Retainment or Psicrystal Retainment. By RAW:

You cannot use this ability when you expend your psionic focus to enhance the same power in a different manner. For example, if you have the Maximize Power feat, you cannot expend your focus to maximize a power and also reduce the cost of that same power.
By RAW, our tricks for having a second focus or being able to retain your focus just don't matter: if you have expended your focus to enhance the same power in a different manner, you cannot also apply EP to it. End of story. :smallredface:

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 12:52 AM
If your DM allows item combinations, an Incarnum Focus Torc of Power Preservation would solve that issue.

I'm confused by this. Incarnum Focus isn't an item, its a soul meld. Melds bound to a Chakra take up a magic item slot, but aren't really physical items that you could enchant upon. You'd need Split Chakra, or some way to reslot the Torc...

Current build:

{table=head]ECL|Class|Feats|Powers|Essentia|Melds|Binds
1|Ardent1|Azure Talent, Practiced Manifester|Dim Hop, Energy Ray|2|0|0
2|Incarnate1|||3|2|0
3|Incarnate2|Psionic Meditation||3|3|1
4|Ardent2||Energy Stun|3|3|1
5|Ardent3||Hustle|3|3|1
6|Soul Manifester1|Midnight Augmentation|Energy Ball|4|3|1
7|Soul Manifester2||Psionic Open Chakra|5|4|1
8|Soul Manifester3||Psionic Fly|6|4|1
9|Soul Manifester4|Improved Essentia Capacity|Psionic Teleport|7|4|2
10|Soul Manifester5||Energy Wall|8|5|2
11|Soul Manifester6||Astral Construct|9|5|2
12|Soul Manifester7|Psicrystal Affinity|Psionic Freedom of Movement|10|5|2
13|Soul Manifester8||XXX|11|6|3
14|Soul Manifester9||XXX|12|6|3
15|Soul Manifester10|Psicrystal Containment|Psionic Greater Teleport|13|6|3
[/table]

So, not enough powers known...I took everything that looks interesting, and...yea...

Any thoughts? Hmmmm, Energy Conversion would be a great power to mantle swap. Maybe change it for Energy Wave or Energy Manipulation? Then I could do the Energy Wall + Energy Conversion lazerpewpew combo...

Glimbur
2011-01-05, 01:08 AM
I'm confused by this. Incarnum Focus isn't an item, its a soul meld. Melds bound to a Chakra take up a magic item slot, but aren't really physical items that you could enchant upon. You'd need Split Chakra, or some way to reslot the Torc...

Check the Incarnum Focus item in MiC, pages 112-113. It increases the essentia capacity of a soulmeld on that slot and allows you to still bind a soulmeld to that slot. It's like buying two feats... which is generally cheaper than taking feats with feat slots. They exist for any slot except rings, which is nice.

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 01:19 AM
I was refering to the Psychic Focus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) soulmeld I linked on the last page. When you bind it to the throat slot, you can't wear the Torc.

Oh, hmmm. If you had an Incarnum Amulet of Power Preservation, would the Incarnum Amulet's ability to not occupy a magic item slot WRT soulmelds work even with the Torc of Power Preservation tacked on it?

Psyren
2011-01-05, 01:29 AM
By RAW, our tricks for having a second focus or being able to retain your focus just don't matter: if you have expended your focus to enhance the same power in a different manner, you cannot also apply EP to it. End of story. :smallredface:

Actually, having a second focus could work by RAW, because you're expending your psicrystal's focus rather than yours. You just have to make sure that's the one you use.

I did forget that you had to stay focused for EP to function though, thanks for the reminder.

Godskook
2011-01-05, 02:11 AM
Check the Incarnum Focus item in MiC, pages 112-113. It increases the essentia capacity of a soulmeld on that slot and allows you to still bind a soulmeld to that slot. It's like buying two feats... which is generally cheaper than taking feats with feat slots. They exist for any slot except rings, which is nice.

Actually, its a Magic of Incarnum item, page 114.

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 02:13 AM
Its in both, but if there are any changes, the MIC is the most recently published, and therefore is considered to be errata for any previous material.

EDIT: A quick read-over looks like both texts are identical.

EDIT EDIT: Looks like MIC dropped the price from a hefty 25,000 down to 15,000g. Hurrah for MIC making items more accessable!

Stegyre
2011-01-05, 10:54 AM
Current build:
Powers

Add Damp Power (CPsi, lvl 2), which should be eligible for substitution into your energy mantle.

Energy Stun instead of the much better Energy Missile just seems like a mistake to me. EM is one of the best powers available, while ES is just "meh."

I've always liked Dimensional Pocket and Psychoportive Shelter (both CPsi, lvl 1 and 2, respectively), and I think they should fit with any mantle holding Dim Hop (on the theory that they all represent an ability/focus in moving through or accessing extra-dimensional spaces). YMMV, as I admit that I take these ones largely for flavor reasons.

Is Energy Blast supposed to be Energy Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyBurst.htm)? If so, I wonder at the wisdom of yet another burst power centered on yourself -- this is not the way to make friends and influence (favorably) your co-adventurers, unless I guess you're planning to Dim. Hop into the midst of the baddies and do your exploding there?:smallconfused: You'd really better hope it works, or you'll be immediately surrounded and flanked. :smalleek:
(Caveat: let me admit, I'm not big on the blasting sort. I figure that if a psionic has Crystal Shard and Energy Missile, he's pretty much "done" in the damage-dealing department, and his other powers can be used for more versatile effects.)

I like Dissipating Touch: think about it: it's a touch attack Disintegrate. Talk to your GM about whether you could use Disintegration Finesse (LoM) with this power. It's not merely an attack; it becomes a utility power.
Precognition is very good, especially at low levels. (This is my favorite choice for Hiddent Talent, see below.) You get a floating +2 insight bonus that you may choose to apply after you've rolled the dice? Yes, please!

Feats
Azure Talent is a waste. The biggest boost you're getting is at ECL 1-3, where it doubles or triples your pp, from 2 to 4 or 6 (once you can bind a crown chakra). You'd get that benefit (2 pp) plus a power if you took Hidden Talent, instead. You could even use that (HT) to get Astral Construct, and have it at ECL 1, instead of ECL 11 (although it does seem a small waste to use HT for a power that's already within a mantle).

Once you really start gaining ardent/SM levels, the comparative value of AT drops quickly, as your pp/level rise rapidly, while the benefit of AT increases by only +2 pp/5 levels!

F'r instance, when you reach ECL 9 and get IEC, you get a one-time boost to your AT that allows you to generate a whopping +8 pp. For comparison, with 7 effective ardent levels (ardent 3 + SM 4), you're already getting 46 pp -- AT is boosting this by only 17%. Eight extra pp is 8 more pp, it's true, but you can make that up with cognizance crystals.

Feats that can be replaced by equipment are usually not worth purchasing with the much more meager feat allowance.

Draz74
2011-01-05, 12:59 PM
1) It is indeed always two feats, as it requires the rather useless Earth Sense as a prereq.
True, I was just imagining a hypothetical situation where the prereq feat wasn't an issue (e.g. if a character already had it for some reason, or a houserule), and reflecting that Earth Power was looking a lot more appealing in that light.


2) This is a false opportunity cost, because you're going to spend those same resources anyway if you're choosing Soul Manifester to begin with. MA is thus a logical choice if you're already going that route.
That may be true ... for a Soul Manifester. But (with apologies to Keld for the derailment) I am interested in judging the worth of Midnight Augmentation in a broader context.


3) You have a point with the psionic focus cost and the one power/day - though most manifesters I would wager have a signature power they call on each day that could benefit from cheaper augmentation.
Maybe that's been my issue with Midnight Augmentation not feeling very powerful -- maybe I'm not good at focusing my psionic builds on a single signature power.


EDIT: Stegyre helpfully reminded me that you must maintain your focus for Earth Power to function, making it even more of a wash. (You need a second focus for EP+Metapsi just as you would need one for MA+Metapsi.)
Yeah, that was one of the reasons I was disagreeing with you earlier about Earth Power being worthwhile in general.


As I understand your own interpretation of similar language for Midnight Augmentation, you want to say that you expend it once in a round, and the augmentation cost reduction benefit will apply to any number of augmentations made to the power in that round.

By that same logic, expending a psionic focus once in a round would allow it to satisfy the requirement for all metapsionic feats that you wanted to apply to the power(s) you were manifesting that round. After all, in each instance, you have satisfied the requirement: you expended your focus.
Sorry, that's not "the same logic" at all. I don't know how to explain my version any better than I already have, but trust me, it doesn't apply to the psi focus expend requirement for metapsionic feats at all. It's based very literally on the wording of Midnight Augmentation.


So, not enough powers known...I took everything that looks interesting, and...yea...

Any thoughts? Hmmmm, Energy Conversion would be a great power to mantle swap. Maybe change it for Energy Wave or Energy Manipulation? Then I could do the Energy Wall + Energy Conversion lazerpewpew combo...
I approve of lazerpewpewing. It makes your Psicrystal a lot more powerful and useful, once you get one. And Energy Conversion is hardly worthless on its own, anyway.

In general, you're running up against the fact that you only have enough Ardent levels to get access to three Mantles. That's supposed to be somewhat restrictive. :smallfrown:

Personally, I rather like some of the more utility powers in Creation, such as Psionic Major Creation and Psionic Fabricate. Being able to summon up any mundane item you need is rather handy. Or you could power-sub in some more powers that enhance your astral constructs, such as Ecto Protection or Psionic Repair Damage.

Btw, I was surprised to see you took your first level in Ardent. I guess it's because of feats -- it would be hard to find two feats out of your build that you can take and use as an Incarnate 1 -- but if this build will be played at low levels, it might be worth the effort to make this work (possibly with a Psychic Reformation to swap around the feats). Because Incarnate is quite possibly the strongest class at Level 1.


Energy Stun instead of the much better Energy Missile just seems like a mistake to me. EM is one of the best powers available, while ES is just "meh."
Depends how often you manage to Stun opponents, now, doesn't it? :smallwink:


Is Energy Blast supposed to be Energy Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyBurst.htm)? If so, I wonder at the wisdom of yet another burst power centered on yourself -- this is not the way to make friends and influence (favorably) your co-adventurers, unless I guess you're planning to Dim. Hop into the midst of the baddies and do your exploding there?:smallconfused:
I'm right with you as far as this opinion goes. Energy Burst is not my favorite.


Feats
Azure Talent is a waste.
Soul. Manifester. Prerequisite. :smalltongue: (As Keld actually mentioned in the OP.)


Eight extra pp is 8 more pp, it's true, but you can make that up with cognizance crystals.

Feats that can be replaced by equipment are usually not worth purchasing with the much more meager feat allowance.

Side note, but (much as I'd like them to be otherwise) Cognizance Crystals aren't really buying "extra" PP unless you have a day of downtime between each day of adventuring. Just letting you save one day's PP for the next day. :smallannoyed:

Of course, there's always +1 Manifester Arrows (which are extra PP) instead, if your cheese tolerance can handle them.

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 12:59 PM
Ok, addressing a couple of points:

I don't think Dim Pocket would work. I'm getting Dim Hop from the Freedom mantle (along with Psionic Fly and Psionic Teleport and Psionic FoM). It doesn't have so much to deal with dimensional travel so much as getting out of trouble. Dim Pocket just doesn't fit that, making it kinda iffy for mantle substitution.

I thought Energy Blast was the Psionic Fireball (20' burst, long range)? There isn't a whole lot in the Energy Mantle...surprisingly...

I like Energy Stun because its a duel threat. It cooks foes AND forces a save vs stun. Even as a blaster, I'd like more options than just damage. Energy Stun sounds like a good option.

Crystal Shard...I dunno if I can get that. Its Metacreativity, so I guess it could fall in on my Creation mantle? I'll look into it a bit more.

Azure Talent is a prereq for Soul Manifester. Can't really do much about that. At least with Psycarnum Infusion, I won't have to worry about leaving Essentia stuck in it, I can just burn my focus at the start to fill it, and because its a feat, it'll stay full all day. I guess.

Good input though, I'll make some changes when I get back to my books and update. Thanks!


Btw, I was surprised to see you took your first level in Ardent. I guess it's because of feats -- it would be hard to find two feats out of your build that you can take and use as an Incarnate 1 -- but if this build will be played at low levels, it might be worth the effort to make this work (possibly with a Psychic Reformation to swap around the feats). Because Incarnate is quite possibly the strongest class at Level 1.
I pretty much had no choice. To get the feats I wanted in before taking SM1, I needed the level of Ardent first. All [Psionic] feats require you have a PP pool. Psionic Meditation, Azure Talent, and Practiced Manifester are all [Psionic] feats. Psionic Meditation has to be taken at 3rd level, rather than 1st, because it has a req for 7 ranks in Concentration. That really puts a wrench in building without doing something like Chaos Shuffling, which I'd rather not have to resort to. Retraining won't work, as feats have to be legal when you would have taken then to retrain them. Trust me, I tried just about every iteration, and the only way I could get my prereqs in, not lose MLs when I'm taking levels, and have Psionic Mediation ASAP, was to take that 1st level of Ardent first.

Draz74
2011-01-05, 01:03 PM
I thought Energy Blast was the Psionic Fireball (20' burst, long range)? There isn't a whole lot in the Energy Mantle...surprisingly...
That's Energy Ball, actually. Energy Burst is indeed the one that has to be centered on one's self. We're not aware of a power called "Energy Blast."


Azure Talent is a prereq for Soul Manifester.

I swordsage'd you by seconds. :smallcool:

Stegyre
2011-01-05, 01:36 PM
Depends how often you manage to Stun opponents, now, doesn't it? :smallwink:

I like Energy Stun because its a duel threat. It cooks foes AND forces a save vs stun. Even as a blaster, I'd like more options than just damage. Energy Stun sounds like a good option.

Except that they have to be standing next to you (5' burst), and you'd better not have any friends within the same range.

This is not a melee character. You've got d4 HD (+3 d6 HD), poor BAB, poor fort. If you have powers that depend upon him being in melee range, that's not a good thing. :smalleek:

Further, the target must fail two saving throws before it gets stunned. This is a it's-nice-if-it-happens-but-how-often-is-it-going-to-happen power.

And before anyone says, "use it in emergencies, to thwart attacks when you get into melee," let me just say two words: "Dimension Hop." No, make that four words: "Swift action Dimension Hop": pop out of the way, and then blast them with an Energy Missile. You lose the possibility for stun and add 2d6 damage at the same pp investment, and may well add additional targets.

(Also note the nerf/correction/errata in CPsi: DC increases +1/2 pp, not 1/1; same as the correction made to Energy Missile.)


Soul. Manifester. Prerequisite. :smalltongue: (As Keld actually mentioned in the OP.)
Failed. Spot. Check.
And man enough to admit it. :smallwink:

Side note, but (much as I'd like them to be otherwise) Cognizance Crystals aren't really buying "extra" PP unless you have a day of downtime between each day of adventuring. Just letting you save one day's PP for the next day. :smallannoyed:
True, and yet an adventure so intense that you're using all your pp, day after day, would be an extreme exception, rather than the rule.

But you should probably know what kind of campaign you are building for at the outset. (And moot in any case, due to the SM requirement for AT.)


Of course, there's always +1 Manifester Arrows (which are extra PP) instead, if your cheese tolerance can handle them.
Lactose. In. Tolerance.:smallwink:


Crystal Shard...I dunno if I can get that. Its Metacreativity, so I guess it could fall in on my Creation mantle? I'll look into it a bit more.
Keep in mind my caveat: your OP idea was for a blaster, and I don't usually do blasters. All I was saying that, I feel I've got all of my blasting bases covered once I've got CS and EM. There are other ways to cover those bases, and I think Energy Ray, which you already have, is generally viewed as comparable to CS.

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 01:50 PM
Check out Energy Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyStun.htm) again. Its a 5' burst at CLOSE range. Its not a PBAoE, its the exact same size and range as Grease.

And I always saw Cognizence Crystals as WAY over priced, plus the limitation that you can only draw PP from one source when you manifest a power. So, if you have a CC with 3 PP stored in it, you could only use it to manifest a power for 3 PP. You couldn't use those 3 PP plus 5 of your own PP to rock out an 8d6 Energy Ray.

You are better off buying an Earth Node magical location (CPsi) for 5 PP @ 4500g than an equivalent CC.

Stegyre
2011-01-05, 02:06 PM
Check out Energy Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyStun.htm) again. Its a 5' burst at CLOSE range. Its not a PBAoE, its the exact same size and range as Grease.
You're right; I stand corrected.
But that's still way closer to the fight than you want to be.
Compare Energy Missile's medium range.
And since a 5' radius burst can only hit 4 targets, max, Energy Missile is guaranteed to hit at least as many targets, if not more (5 targets within what is essentially a 15' diameter).

Pechvarry
2011-01-05, 02:19 PM
I don't really see why it'd be better to swift dim hop > long range nuke than short range > swift dim hop out of danger.

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 02:37 PM
Well, I have Energy Ball for my long range, spread out nuking desires. Energy Ball has a quarter mile minimum range, and close range is long enough for most tactical combat. I mean, isn't that what the other chumps PCs are for? Blocking charge lanes to you?