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Smeggedoff
2011-01-04, 03:56 PM
Right. So I need a new character since my last one was crispified by a terraphobic dragon.

I'm considering (as I'm sure you've guessed) playing an Efreet, using the monster progression in Savage species.

Basically, I'm wondering if anyone's got some experience playing one before, or if anyone could reccomend some good thematic/useful feats and a class for after the monster levels.

Maybe some nifty magic item suggestions too unless VoP is the general consensus.

The DM doesn't generally hold truck with Race/Alignment restrictions so most things will be fair game, just no Uber Cheese please

Thanks in advance
Smeggedoff

gbprime
2011-01-04, 08:09 PM
What level will you be starting off with?

Efreet is kind of a weak progression. 19 levels of sorcerer, essentially, with a lot of physical abilities (but little BAB) and pretty much no spell power whatsoever until 18th and 19th when you get wishes. And you only get 3 feats in that whole time.

A more powerful buy for a fire type might actually be a Flamebrother salamander. it's first 7 levels are taken up with it's racial class (and that +4 LA might be bought down a little bit late in his career) and that leaves 13 levels for something like wizard or duskblade (which it is also suited for thanks to +4 racial INT modifier).

Doesn't get you those wishes at 18th though.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-05, 08:05 AM
It'd be level 5 to start with, we're running through Shackled City atm.

Huh, I didn't realise Efreet were that poor a player choice (especially since due to talks with the DM I wouldn't be making use of Wish or Plane shift)

Thankee for the input, I'll take a look at Salamander and shelf Efreet for if I ever manage to trick a DM into running Gestalt again

Runestar
2011-01-05, 08:09 AM
As a general rule of thumb, monster classes tend to be quite weak for their ECL (with a few notable exceptions, efreet not being one of them). There are a few which might start out strong (because their abilities are front-loaded) but end up being fairly crap eventually.

What kind of a character are you looking at?

Smeggedoff
2011-01-05, 08:39 AM
Honestly? Something fun, which is a really subjective thing :-/

I just really like the arabian nights feel of the Genie class of monster. Sadly they're generally sub par and my DM refuses to even look at homebrew as he feels it would open the door for some really dodgy stuff.

It doesn't help that recently another player tried to sneak a homebrew version of the Truenamer into the game that turned out to be somewhat more than a fix.

Myth
2011-01-05, 10:12 AM
Unless you plan to capitalize on your free wishes to break the game there is no point in playing one. Seeing as how your DM foresaw this already...

gbprime
2011-01-05, 10:53 AM
Yeah, without wishes there's not much to an efreet except plane shift. And if you've agreed not to use that either... then all the genies are a bad idea.

The best builds out of savage species, if you're keen on using something from there are Astral Deva, Hamatula, Rakshasa, and Succubus. They all get more than they give up for the levels.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-05, 12:04 PM
...Really? I thought Succubus was one of the poor ones. Neat, I'll take a look.

I was taking another look at the Djinn because of the whole create wine thing but I guess Wish would be one of their bigger attributes

gbprime
2011-01-05, 01:12 PM
...Really? I thought Succubus was one of the poor ones. Neat, I'll take a look.

Well you're coming in at 5th level, where the succubus build has the BAB and saves of a monk, martial weapon proficiencies, unlimited humanoid forms from small to large, flight, telepathy, tongues, and 3 uses per day of suggestion, clairvoyance, detect thoughts, and some other stuff, which run off their abnormally high CHA stat.

And at 6th level you gain more BAB and saves and can run those abilities at will. After that it slows down a bit, but you pick up your major spell like abilities by 8th, and by 12th you're using them at will.

Feat-wise, you can pick up light armor proficiency at 1st level to increase your survivability (you are running off 1d8 HD every other level after all...) and retrain it later if your DM uses retraining rules out of PHB2. You get additional feats at 4th and 10th, and then 15 and 18 from class levels.

Your 10th level feat should consider the LIFE DRAIN feat from Libris Mortis. Without it, you deal 5 HP of damage with each energy drain and gain 5 temp HP. With the feat, you add your CHA modifier to those. (Your racial bonus is +12 CHA at that point and will be +16 in 2 levels, easily making for a 32 charisma... or 16 HP per negative level instead. Sans equipment. And surely you can find a CHA enhancement item by level 12, yes?)

Afterward, take 8 levels in something that uses CHA for a living, and preferably adds it to AC or something. :smallwink:


I was taking another look at the Djinn because of the whole create wine thing but I guess Wish would be one of their bigger attributes
Djinni don't get the wish ability, only the efreet do. And since their whirlwind ability is kind of weak, there's not much to recommend Djinni at all. Janni are even worse, and there's nothing there at all if your DM doesn't want you abusing the heck out of Plane Shift.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-05, 02:10 PM
I see what you mean.
The plane shift thing is more like a mutual agreement really. The game's set in one city on the material plane so it wouldn't be much use anyway.
The wish thing is just common sense, Like agreeing not to abuse mordenkainen's disjunction.
I had noticed the homebrew djinn progression from another section of the forum http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7960967&postcount=43
but I don't think my DM's gonna bite.

*goes to take another look at the Succubus*

Keinnicht
2011-01-05, 02:49 PM
I wouldn't really want to play an Efreet, honestly. One thing you might want to consider if you can grant wishes: Mortals like wishes. Mortals might like to bind you and force you to grant wishes. There's a good chance your DM will figure this out and create a conflict involving this.

Runestar
2011-01-05, 04:43 PM
The best builds out of savage species, if you're keen on using something from there are Astral Deva, Hamatula, Rakshasa, and Succubus. They all get more than they give up for the levels.

Umm...what? You could be a 14th lv sorc instead of a raksasha, I don't know what to make of hamatula and succubus, and astral deva (I estimate the ECL to be closer to 15 or 16), while cool, has problems dealing damage at mid-higher lvs.

Since you start at 5th lv, consider the maug PC in fiend folio? Looks pretty strong, though hp might be an issue at higher lvs, since constructs don't have a con score.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-05, 07:54 PM
Thanks Keinnicht, Though I think I already had enough reasons NOT to play one


Umm...what? You could be a 14th lv sorc instead of a raksasha,
Well yeah, true. Sorry to be blunt but... And?
you could be a 14th level sorcerer instead of a lot of things, and a 14th level sorcerer isn't immune to 8th level spells, doesn't have alternate form at will and a few other goodies.
By the same regard I'd like to point out my DM has banned the Sylph...sine it IS a 14th level sorcerer :-/



I don't know what to make of hamatula and succubus, and astral deva (I estimate the ECL to be closer to 15 or 16), while cool, has problems dealing damage at mid-higher lvs.
This, I find, is a problem for most monster classes. Those low little goodies that start out great get old and worn out eventually
My DM swears by Avoral Guardinal (infinite magic missiles) and Kyton (though I'm not sure if he's interpreting their chain actions right)



Since you start at 5th lv, consider the maug PC in fiend folio? Looks pretty strong, though hp might be an issue at higher lvs, since constructs don't have a con score.
Thanks, I'll take a look

woodenbandman
2011-01-05, 09:13 PM
You could consider the khayal genies. They're ECL 12, 8hd with a 4 LA, and you end up sort of comparable to a rogue/fighter of 12th level. Lots of stat boosts, some spell-likes, perfect fly speed, and 2 bonus feats. Check out the tome of magic shadow section.

Runestar
2011-01-06, 02:00 AM
Well yeah, true. Sorry to be blunt but... And?
you could be a 14th level sorcerer instead of a lot of things, and a 14th level sorcerer isn't immune to 8th level spells, doesn't have alternate form at will and a few other goodies.
By the same regard I'd like to point out my DM has banned the Sylph...sine it IS a 14th level sorcerer :-/

If you play the 3.5 raksasha, the spell immunity would be replaced with sr anyways (and it can be a hindrance when you are being healed/buffed). You are basically a 7th lv sorc with some ability score boosts, dr and sr. I feel you are more deadweight to your party than anything. I peg the LA at no more than +3, personally.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 02:03 AM
Have you considered grandfathering in one of the stronger Efreets from my second favorite AD&D setting: Al-Qadim? Being Arabian Nights based it has lots of genie types not seen in the normal game. Also, awesome artwork!

Smeggedoff
2011-01-06, 10:24 AM
Woodbandman - I've had a look, while they're cool they're not quite what I'm looking for (Improved finesse looks fun though)

Runestar - By the savage species progression Rakshasa retain immunity, and, like spell resistance, get to drop it at will to recieve beneficial spell effects.

TVTyrant - I hadn't considered that since I'm terrible at making my own crunch and my DM would probably be instantly suspicious if I asked to play something I'd homebrewed myself. But I'll try and take a look if only for the artwork ;) cheers

gbprime
2011-01-06, 11:26 AM
Umm...what? You could be a 14th lv sorc instead of a raksasha, I don't know what to make of hamatula and succubus, and astral deva (I estimate the ECL to be closer to 15 or 16), while cool, has problems dealing damage at mid-higher lvs.

You'll note I prefaced it with "if you're keen on using something from there". With some thought and the right equipment and feats, these builds can be respectable Tier 3, but no higher. And for most campaigns and DM's, that's all they can handle anyway.

Take Succubus, for example. At 12th level, you add the Life Drain feat, and each round they're sponging as much as 20 HP off of someone while at the same time doing that much damage and giving negative levels. not to mention unlimited Charm Monster with a save DC somewhere around 28.

And you have 8 levels to play with after that. Start with Marshal. Motivate Charisma aura anyone? Get a second minor aura and add your CHA bonus to you and all your allies damage when you flank someone. Instant +14 damage to everybody. After 3 levels of Marshal, move on to Mindspy for combat mind reading, 5 more BAB, and a CHA bonus to your AC.

And while you're at it, take Perform with your marshall levels and "waste" your 15th level feat on Versatile Performer... motivate charisma anyone?

Starbuck_II
2011-01-06, 12:03 PM
You could consider the khayal genies. They're ECL 12, 8hd with a 4 LA, and you end up sort of comparable to a rogue/fighter of 12th level. Lots of stat boosts, some spell-likes, perfect fly speed, and 2 bonus feats. Check out the tome of magic shadow section.
Yes, 3d6 sneak attack and treat every 1 handed weapon as finesseable.
But you are forgetting their weakness: every 24 hrs away from plane of shadow they take 2 Con drain. So you need planeshift.
Though, one would hope your party can do it by than.

Runestar
2011-01-06, 05:09 PM
Runestar - By the savage species progression Rakshasa retain immunity, and, like spell resistance, get to drop it at will to recieve beneficial spell effects.

That's the 3.0 version. The 3.5 version is quite different, so I am not sure if your DM will allow you to use it. Plus, the vulnerability to bless bolts can be irritating.


Take Succubus, for example. At 12th level, you add the Life Drain feat, and each round they're sponging as much as 20 HP off of someone while at the same time doing that much damage and giving negative levels. not to mention unlimited Charm Monster with a save DC somewhere around 28.

Yeah, if you manage to grapple them. At-will charm monster can be abused, but you are useless against undead and constructs. Plus, won't you rather just play a beguiler?

I just feel these monster classes the the equivalent of "tortoise with a toothpick". You have some abilities which make it hard to kill you, but you can't really contribute effectively to combat anyways, so the DM just ignores you, causing you to become a superfluous PC whose purpose is just to leech xp from the party.

Rixx
2011-01-06, 05:15 PM
If you want to be a firey dude, an Ifrit from Pathfinder Bestiary 2 might be the way to go. (Yes, that's "ifrit", not "efreet" - there is a difference). Converted to 3.5, it's probably a LA +1 race, but you get some really neat abilities - Burning Hands 1/day as a spell-like ability, resist fire 5, and +2 CHA for all sorcerer class features if you take the elemental (fire) bloodline (which may not apply if you're going strict 3.5).

gbprime
2011-01-06, 05:21 PM
Runestar, I think our difference of opinion on this one comes from a difference on our definitions of "contribute effectively to combat". That could be due to a difference in campaign emphasis (heavy RP versus many-combats-a-session) or expected PC Tier.

These progressions, as stated, are far from optimized, but function and contribute well enough in a party of mixed Tier 3 and Tier 4. If you've got Tier 2 or higher characters in the mix, then yes, Savage Species builds pale in comparison, definitely.

Runestar
2011-01-06, 06:36 PM
Runestar, I think our difference of opinion on this one comes from a difference on our definitions of "contribute effectively to combat". That could be due to a difference in campaign emphasis (heavy RP versus many-combats-a-session) or expected PC Tier.

These progressions, as stated, are far from optimized, but function and contribute well enough in a party of mixed Tier 3 and Tier 4. If you've got Tier 2 or higher characters in the mix, then yes, Savage Species builds pale in comparison, definitely.

Perhaps. I just fail to see how the equivalent of a 7th lv sorc can contribute effectively in any way (be it combat or social encounters) compared to a 14th lv PC.

I thought about the succubus for a while and decided that it can make for a decent party face. The +16 cha offsets the loss of 6 class lvs (so you come out a bit ahead in social skills), and you can spam charm monster to have your own personal thrall army, though you risk being a 1-trick pony.

I doubt they would be tier 3 even when heavily optimized though. Many SS monster classes are that weak, though the impact usually isn't felt until at mid-higher lvs.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-07, 01:38 PM
Go with one of the "Casts spells as an X-level Y"(Nymph, Dryad, or whatever, although probably neither of the 2 I listed, as Dryads are tied to a specific tree, and Nymphs may or may not be too powerful with their blinding powers). You'll never match a full caster of equal ECL, but as has been pointed out many times before, even some low level spells can be useful at higher levels(Glitterdust as a Sorcerer, for example), and coupled with the Nymph's ungodly(as compared to ECL1 races) Charisma, the DC is comparable to a higher level sorcerer's spells.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-07, 04:07 PM
Huh, for some reason I always missed that Nymphs had Druid casting. Weird.

Sadly any race that casts as an X level Y is banned by my DM since he's generally against something that allows you get the benefits of two things at once (this stems from a discussion about the Sylph from way back)

I guess that means he wouldn't allow Rakshasa either *shrug*

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-07, 09:42 PM
Huh, for some reason I always missed that Nymphs had Druid casting. Weird.

Sadly any race that casts as an X level Y is banned by my DM since he's generally against something that allows you get the benefits of two things at once (this stems from a discussion about the Sylph from way back)

I guess that means he wouldn't allow Rakshasa either *shrug*

It should be noted that "casts as X level Y" races are usually only as powerful a caster as their HD allows, which typically means that they're only casting as half of their ECL(ie, 7 vs 14, 3 vs 6, etc.). This disparity lessens as they take more levels in the associated class, but they will always be behind by at least 2 spell levels or more.

Laurellien
2011-01-08, 09:22 AM
Ghaele Eladrins always struck me as being the most powerful monster class in low-mid levels. At level 5 they have +5 BAB, cast spells as a 5th level cleric with more domains, have skills equal to a rogue of their level, and 5d8 HD. Not to mention +2 natural armour, resistance 5 to acid, cold and electricity, +2 wis, int, dex and str, base land speed 50', dark and low-light vision, martial weapon proficiency, spell resistance 13 and 10 different utility Spell-like abilities each usable 3/day.

Megawizard
2011-01-08, 09:34 AM
Ghaele Eladrins always struck me as being the most powerful monster class in low-mid levels. At level 5 they have +5 BAB, cast spells as a 5th level cleric with more domains, have skills equal to a rogue of their level, and 5d8 HD. Not to mention +2 natural armour, resistance 5 to acid, cold and electricity, +2 wis, int, dex and str, base land speed 50', dark and low-light vision, martial weapon proficiency, spell resistance 13 and 10 different utility Spell-like abilities each usable 3/day.

Wow you're right, I had never noticed that on the Savage Species version! Those 5 first levels are pretty powerfull!:smalleek:

The only "disadvantage" I can see it's that it doesn't get turning.

Also I believe you're forced to take the SS class to the end, so no taking only 5 levels and then start taking normal cleric levels.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-08, 09:47 AM
Atomic Kitkat - That's true, and normally the limiting factor. But the Sylph gets some goodies including at will invisibility AND sorcerer casting equal to it's hit dice +3. Can you guess it's level adjustment? that's right, 3.

Laurellian - Wow, that is kind of cool. Drops off a bit after that though, means you're less likely to get one shotted at low levels when you're light on gear due to the high concentration of hit dice early on.

Megawizard - Yeah, you'd have to take all 20 levels

Megawizard
2011-01-08, 12:44 PM
Atomic Kitkat - That's true, and normally the limiting factor. But the Sylph gets some goodies including at will invisibility AND sorcerer casting equal to it's hit dice +3. Can you guess it's level adjustment? that's right, 3.


Not exactly. The Sylp's caster level it's equal to HD+3 by RAW. Not actual sorceror casting. It has a fixed number of spell slots and spells known, that doesn't change with HD.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-08, 01:31 PM
Not exactly. The Sylp's caster level it's equal to HD+3 by RAW. Not actual sorceror casting. It has a fixed number of spell slots and spells known, that doesn't change with HD.


I stand corrected. Huh.

Runestar
2011-01-08, 08:43 PM
Wow you're right, I had never noticed that on the Savage Species version! Those 5 first levels are pretty powerfull!:smalleek:

The only "disadvantage" I can see it's that it doesn't get turning.

Also I believe you're forced to take the SS class to the end, so no taking only 5 levels and then start taking normal cleric levels.

Yeah, but until 14th lv, you are just as good as a normal cleric. :smallsmile: