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View Full Version : [3.5] Lvl 20 - maximizing a wizardly cabal?



DataPacRat
2011-01-04, 04:37 PM
I've heard it advised that in 3e, of whatever flavour, players should have already planned out their characters' 20th level before they pick their first. For those of you who've been watching, I'm mostly done putting together a ratman-shaped, saintly-glowing wizard with a plan to give immortality to everyone. The main thing I've got left to do... is look for any rules-based, rather than roleplaying-based, ways by which this fellow can have the maximum number of people helping out in his plan.

So - what we have to work with is essentially a single-classed wizard up to level 9 (perhaps with a full-spellcaster-level PrC, such as Geometer), +2 ECL from BoED Saint template, with +2 caster-level long-term from a pair of magic items and one chosen feat. Most everything else is up for grabs - feats, PrCs, spellchoice, and so on. The main goal is that, by the time he reaches Epic levels, to maximize the number of 9th+ wizards as part of the main PC's cabal; secondary goals are to have a large number of lower-level wizards as well (who can eventually level up), anyone who can cast a particular 4th-level druid spell (or Limited Wish to imitate said spell), and whatever other politically- and tactically-powerful people can be found to add their juice to the overall Immortality Project.

So... Any suggestions?

blazingshadow
2011-01-04, 05:32 PM
have you checked the leadership feats? leadership and undead leadership gives you 2 cohorts and a bunch of followers right off the bat. the book heroes of battle also have some feats to improve how many followers you can get with leadership

DataPacRat
2011-01-04, 09:04 PM
have you checked the leadership feats? leadership and undead leadership gives you 2 cohorts and a bunch of followers right off the bat. the book heroes of battle also have some feats to improve how many followers you can get with leadership

The PC is is good-aligned, which makes the Undead Leadership feat problematic to qualify for.

Leadership and its variations is certainly one way to go - though the levels of the followers don't seem to get anywhere near 9th until Epic Leadership happens.

Focusing on cohorts instead of followers might work; are there any feats that add more cohorts instead of more followers?

olentu
2011-01-04, 09:22 PM
Mind control is an option though not knowing how closely or how far your alignment system varies it should probably be checked for evilness.

Myth
2011-01-05, 06:37 AM
I've heard it advised that in 3e, of whatever flavour, players should have already planned out their characters' 20th level before they pick their first. For those of you who've been watching, I'm mostly done putting together a ratman-shaped, saintly-glowing wizard with a plan to give immortality to everyone. The main thing I've got left to do... is look for any rules-based, rather than roleplaying-based, ways by which this fellow can have the maximum number of people helping out in his plan.

So - what we have to work with is essentially a single-classed wizard up to level 9 (perhaps with a full-spellcaster-level PrC, such as Geometer), +2 ECL from BoED Saint template, with +2 caster-level long-term from a pair of magic items and one chosen feat. Most everything else is up for grabs - feats, PrCs, spellchoice, and so on. The main goal is that, by the time he reaches Epic levels, to maximize the number of 9th+ wizards as part of the main PC's cabal; secondary goals are to have a large number of lower-level wizards as well (who can eventually level up), anyone who can cast a particular 4th-level druid spell (or Limited Wish to imitate said spell), and whatever other politically- and tactically-powerful people can be found to add their juice to the overall Immortality Project.

So... Any suggestions?

First: drop the Saint template. Don't sacrifice caster levels for some defensive perks you can mimic with spells.

Second: go for a Circle Magic PrC. All three are in the Forgotten Realms but can be adapted for another setting. Red Wizard, Hathran and Harluaan (forgot the name of the class)

Get Leadership. Get your cohorts to have Leadership as well, repead untill the last cohort isn't high enough level to qualify for the feat.

Also hire some hirelings. Also Mindrape some lower level casters into being your loyal buttbudies (a tad on the evil side, but you can probably justify it if you do it to Drow or other "always CE" races)

DataPacRat
2011-01-05, 07:47 AM
First: drop the Saint template. Don't sacrifice caster levels for some defensive perks you can mimic with spells.

As a minmaxer myself, often enough, I can't disagree with that point of view. However, the creation of this character isn't /entirely/ about maxing out combat/casting ability. At least outside his main goal of giving everybody immortality, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of raw power in exchange for having a character I'll have more fun role-playing - and the in-character ramifications of this fellow becoming a saint just might outweigh my calculations on how to add a couple of dice of damage to his fireballs.



Second: go for a Circle Magic PrC. All three are in the Forgotten Realms but can be adapted for another setting. Red Wizard, Hathran and Harluaan (forgot the name of the class)

(Halruaan Elder, described in Shining South, p27.) Red Wizards have to be non-good, and according to Player's Guide to Faerun, Hathran have to be female; but Halruaans don't seem to be immediately ruled out that way. I hadn't known that there was a way other than Red Wizardry to access circle magic - this looks like a form of cabal worth investigating more deeply.



Get Leadership. Get your cohorts to have Leadership as well, repead untill the last cohort isn't high enough level to qualify for the feat.

Leadership can be recursive? Neat - and exactly the sort of approach I was hoping to learn of. :)



Also hire some hirelings.

It always pays to remember the basics.



Also Mindrape some lower level casters into being your loyal buttbudies (a tad on the evil side, but you can probably justify it if you do it to Drow or other "always CE" races)

I'm being very cautious about spells with the Evil qualifier - ever since I read, in Fiendish Codex 2, that simply "using an evil spell" is considered a corrupt act that adds 1 to a character's corruption value.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 07:59 AM
I'm being very cautious about spells with the Evil qualifier - ever since I read, in Fiendish Codex 2, that simply "using an evil spell" is considered a corrupt act that adds 1 to a character's corruption value.

It is- but it's the least corrupt of listed corrupt acts.

That said- the corruption system might not be in use in this game.

There's some precedent for:

"while casting evil spells is an evil act- a character who only does so with good intentions, and generally acts Good in other ways, can remain solidly Neutral"

Specifically- Heroes of Horror. In its description of the "antihero, who is probably a flexible neutral" and in its description of nonevil Dread Necromancers.

So- if you're playing a Chaotic or Neutral, rather than Lawful, character- a rising Corruption rating might not condemn the character to the Nine Hells. Whether it condemns them to the Lower Planes- may depend on the DM.

But regardless of their afterlife- there's reason to think they can maintain a nonevil alignment.

olentu
2011-01-05, 08:18 AM
I'm being very cautious about spells with the Evil qualifier - ever since I read, in Fiendish Codex 2, that simply "using an evil spell" is considered a corrupt act that adds 1 to a character's corruption value.

Personally I would go to the book of vile darkness which while it lists casting evil spells under evil acts says that sometimes a non evil spellcaster can get away with casting a few evil spells so long as the purpose is not evil itself. But as I said not knowing the alignments system of your DM it is something to check.

However one other option is the if I remember correctly non evil programmed amnesia from the spell compendium. Now it is not as convenient as mindrape but depending on your circumstances may be able to get the job done.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 08:23 AM
Personally I would go to the book of vile darkness which while it lists casting evil spells under evil acts says that sometimes a non evil spellcaster can get away with casting a few evil spells so long as the purpose is not evil itself. But as I said not knowing the alignments system of your DM it is something to check.

Yup- the "get away with" can mean "will not change the character's alignment all the way to evil"- especially given the precedent set by Heroes of Horror.

Programmed Amnesia is safer but slower (10 minutes rather than 1 round)- though some DMs might consider modifying a person's memory without sufficiently good reason- a violation of their rights- and possibly evil. So it may depend on the setting.

DataPacRat
2011-01-05, 09:19 AM
Yup- the "get away with" can mean "will not change the character's alignment all the way to evil"- especially given the precedent set by Heroes of Horror.

Programmed Amnesia is safer but slower (10 minutes rather than 1 round)- though some DMs might consider modifying a person's memory without sufficiently good reason- a violation of their rights- and possibly evil. So it may depend on the setting.

Not to get into the whole "but what /is/ good/evil?" debate, but I've got a few decent arguments I can field, including "it does less harm to them than killing them" and "the fundamental rights everyone has include the right to use reasonable force in self-defense to protect the other rights, as well as using such force in the common defense of others". Since Programmed Amnesia lacks the Evil modifier, I'm willing to add it to the arsenal alongside fireballs (which also tend to violate the rights of the target - the right to life...) and such.

Though, even from a practical standpoint, it's probably generally more efficient to use Simulacra and Planar Allies, outside of high-value NPCs in role-played situations.


(Yes, I'm trying to keep this PC's behaviour in line with qualifying for the Saint template, whether or not he actually has it.)


<wanders off to check on whether Spelljamming to Realmspace is still doable in 3e>

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 09:34 AM
Since Programmed Amnesia lacks the Evil modifier, I'm willing to add it to the arsenal alongside fireballs (which also tend to violate the rights of the target - the right to life...) and such.

Waterdeep has been known to use it as part of its punishment methods- cast the spell on the person- give them the option of doing various valuable (and dangerous) things for the city to get their memory back.

So there is precedent for it being a more merciful method- and maybe a basis for rehabilitation.

"the fundamental rights everyone has include the right to use reasonable force in self-defense to protect the other rights, as well as using such force in the common defense of others"

this works pretty well for anything that "does not cause undue suffering"- and loss of memory may be one of these.

I'd allow Programmed Amnesia to count as nonevil under some circumstances- it would be unreasonable uses of it that would count as evil.

Myth
2011-01-05, 09:57 AM
<wanders off to check on whether Spelljamming to Realmspace is still doable in 3e>

Not sure about the actual stats, but it is known that the High Mages of Evermeet have Spelljammer ships and know how to operate them.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 10:20 AM
According to this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Spelljammer

one Dragon issue, and one Dungeon issue- did 3rd ed Spelljammer content- but aside from those, that was it.

Myth
2011-01-05, 10:26 AM
TV tropes is not a good source of information IMO. It tries too hard to prove it's point that everything in the world is chock full of bad cliche's.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 10:29 AM
I've read that one Dragon issue- but not the Dungeon issue.

Sometimes (when there's a link) the info that can be found by following it is quite interesting.

As for "identifying tropes"- it points out also that tropes are not cliches, or bad (though not automatically good, either).

DataPacRat
2011-01-05, 07:21 PM
Not sure about the actual stats, but it is known that the High Mages of Evermeet have Spelljammer ships and know how to operate them.

It appears that the official reference for Spelljamming in 3e... is http://www.spelljammer.org/ . (With some possible additional details in Polyhedron issue 151 and Dungeon issue 92.) Should be enough for me to add "Oh, and once we've saved most everyone on this planet from death, we'll be expanding the project further" to the PC's overall plan.


If anyone's still reading this... how would /your/ PCs and NPCs react should they discover a secretive cabal of wizards making sophisticated, high-level plots and plans and so on... and then discovering their professed goal is to defeat death itself, wholesale?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-05, 07:30 PM
Probably steal the cabal's notes when the Cabal gets close to success, and then hold the information ransom. The Devils need people to die to keep fighting the Blood War, they would pay a lot to keep the spell away from people.

Soren Hero
2011-01-05, 08:29 PM
It appears that the official reference for Spelljamming in 3e... is http://www.spelljammer.org/ . (With some possible additional details in Polyhedron issue 151 and Dungeon issue 92.) Should be enough for me to add "Oh, and once we've saved most everyone on this planet from death, we'll be expanding the project further" to the PC's overall plan.


If anyone's still reading this... how would /your/ PCs and NPCs react should they discover a secretive cabal of wizards making sophisticated, high-level plots and plans and so on... and then discovering their professed goal is to defeat death itself, wholesale?

two things
1) EFFIN AWESOME
2) where do I sign up?

DataPacRat
2011-01-05, 09:27 PM
Probably steal the cabal's notes when the Cabal gets close to success, and then hold the information ransom. The Devils need people to die to keep fighting the Blood War, they would pay a lot to keep the spell away from people.

Notes from the White Rat's journals: "... vitally important to adjust our arrangements so that there is no one single thing upon which the entire Plot depends, and with which the removal thereof would require replacement for the Plot to continue. This includes myself - it would be a terrible thing if the Plot were to cease to be simply because I was no longer personally directing it. To this end, I have decided to make the entirety of my spellbooks available to all members of the Cabal, and am trying to think of ways to encourage each and every one of them to do the same - perhaps I shall place a glyph enforcing some sort of magically-binding geas on my books, so that those who read them will not be able to refuse spreading the knowledge they gain from them..."

(Hey, as long as I'm working on shoehorning the start of transhumanism into D&D, why not throw in the magical version of open source, as well? :) )

Jack_Simth
2011-01-05, 09:38 PM
Well, Leadership is definitely one way to go, and is potentially chainable, but chaining leadership requires that your DM let you specify the build, which is *not* a given. There's also methods by which to make that an *infinite* chain, but this requires your DM let you fully specify the builds of your followers, and your followers' followers, and your followers' followers' followers, et infinitum... and yes, it's based on your *followers* (their level is capped only by your Leadership score), not your cohort (who's level is capped based on your level) (But that's cheesy-cheese, and you probably don't want it, really).

But yes - Simulacrum is a good source for fodder. And if you can attract a Mirror Memphit (Expidition to the Demonweb Pits) as a follower or cohort (the Summon spell doesn't work for this), preferably and *advanced* Mirror Memphit (increased caster level), you can make lots of Simulacrums on the cheap.

Myth
2011-01-06, 09:05 AM
It appears that the official reference for Spelljamming in 3e... is http://www.spelljammer.org/ . (With some possible additional details in Polyhedron issue 151 and Dungeon issue 92.) Should be enough for me to add "Oh, and once we've saved most everyone on this planet from death, we'll be expanding the project further" to the PC's overall plan.


If anyone's still reading this... how would /your/ PCs and NPCs react should they discover a secretive cabal of wizards making sophisticated, high-level plots and plans and so on... and then discovering their professed goal is to defeat death itself, wholesale?

At the higher levels of power (17+) immortality is not hard to come by. Considering that NPCs don't care about LA, anyone can become a Lich/Dry Lich, or take levels in Elemental Savant or whatever more elegant ways there are to become immortal (I don't consider PAO into Elan an elegant way).

If that's the only thing the cabal is after I'd leave them be. See the Twisted Rune in the Forgotten Realms to see what secretive cabals of high level immortal casters strive for. Now those guys are worth hunting down and Soultrapping.