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Keinnicht
2011-01-04, 05:43 PM
So...Is it just me, or is the True Necromancer way, way better than the mystic theurge? Here's what I'm seeing:

Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10: Ends up with Caster Level 15 for both divine and arcane spells.

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/True Necromancer 14 ends up with CL 19. Plus improved rebuking and the ability to use multiple spells as spell-like abilities.

Uh...Is there something I'm missing here? It seems like the Mystic Theurge is significantly underpowered by comparison.

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 05:52 PM
Both are bad. As K once put it: Compared to a True Necromancer, a Fighter could take Leadership to get a Fighter cohort, and his cohort could take Leadership to get a Cleric cohort, and he'd still be bringing as much or more necromancy to that table as YOU are.

TN is bad for a couple of reasons. First, it requires the Death domain. The Death domain notably has NOTHING to do with Undead. It has to do with killing the living. That, while nice, doesn't make you a better necromancer.

Secondly, its not full 14/14 for both sides. Its like, 12/14 and 12/14 for each side respectively. Thats 5 spellcasting levels you are behind on either side. 2.5 FULL SPELL LEVELS. Thats rough. Higher level spells means access to higher level Create and Summon Undead spells, aka better necromancer. The SLAs you get are crappy, late, and easily duplicatable by spells, spells you lost trying to get into this horrible class.

Mystic Theurge is pretty bad, just not for the reasons you specified.

The best necromancer classes would probably be straight Cleric20, or Dread Necromancer20 (Heroes of Horror). That way you keep your full spell progression, get the freedom to choose the options you want, and still bring more necromancy to the table than a TN.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-04, 05:52 PM
In before admiral ackhart (sp?) meme?

Both of theme are quite underpowered (the True necromancer even more so), baring early entry (which may or may not constitute as cheese depending on your point of view) they get lower level spells at slower level than a single classed arcanist or divine spellcaster; their CL is horrible in comparison.

and it is worse for True Necromancer



Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

Keinnicht
2011-01-04, 05:58 PM
Should I go Mystic Theurge then? I'm really just looking for a theurge type character. That would get me up to 8th level spells.

And it seems like, even if I wouldn't get the most powerful spells in the game, I'd have a lot of spells per day, and be a very, very versatile caster.

Ernir
2011-01-04, 05:59 PM
Eh? A Cleric 3/Wizard 3/TN 14 ends up with an effective spell known level of 15 at 20, for both classes.

Which is awful. Mystic Theurge is very bad as well (unless you employ some trick to enter it at level 4 or 5, at which point it becomes merely mediocre), but the True Necromancer is un-salvageable crap.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-04, 06:03 PM
Well if you take MT and then top it with another theurge it isn't so bad; can't argue with double 9s. Or Just make a Noctumancer and enjoy having 9s and Mysterys to play with; also your simply cooler that way :D

Keld Denar
2011-01-04, 06:03 PM
If you want lots of spells, play a single classed Focused Specialist (CMage). You'll find in many encounters though, if you use your spells smartly, you can typically end encounters in 2-3 spells. If you have 3-4 encounters, that's ~12 spells per day tops. Not all of them will be your highest level spells, but sometimes a well placed Glitterdust goes a long way even at mid levels. You'll have plenty enough gas to make it through whatever your DM springs on you.

Otherwise, see if you can bribe/threaten/sleepwith your DM into allowing you one of the early entry techniques for MT. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten (if you are spontaneous), Illumian race + Improved Sigil (Krau) if you don't mind being Illumian (Races of Destiny), or simply Sanctum Spell for the simplest option.

Alternatively, Ultimate Magus (CMage) is a great prepared/spontanous theurge. Both sides are arcane, which means you are twice as badass. If you use the Practiced Spellcaster trick, you'll only be 1 level behind on your highest tier of spells (wizard spells), and you'll have your spontaneous side to do utility effects and power metamagic (cause Ultimate Magus actually has class features).

Alternatively, bribe/threaten/sleepwith your DM to be allowed to use the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge. Its moderately better.

Godskook
2011-01-04, 06:05 PM
Cleric 3/Wizard 3/True Necromancer 14 ends up with CL 19. Plus improved rebuking and the ability to use multiple spells as spell-like abilities.

Where are you getting this? TN only advances 12/14 in either class, giving you CL 15 in both at ECL 20, just like MT.

If you're counting "Necromantic Prowess", the Mystic Theurge can get that by spending 2 feats on practiced spellcaster. Necromantic Prowess doesn't grant spell slots or spell levels.

And finally, compare with Arcane Hierophant, which gets 9ths in both classes without shenanigans of any sort(Wiz 3/Druid 3/MT 4/AH 10)

molten_dragon
2011-01-04, 06:12 PM
Should I go Mystic Theurge then? I'm really just looking for a theurge type character. That would get me up to 8th level spells.

And it seems like, even if I wouldn't get the most powerful spells in the game, I'd have a lot of spells per day, and be a very, very versatile caster.

If you're looking for a theurge type character, and it doesn't have to be wizard/cleric, I'd look at arcane hierophant. It's druid/arcane, and gets full casting from both entries, as well as some good useful abilities (your animal companion gets familiar abilities too, and you get full wildshaping)

JaronK
2011-01-04, 06:22 PM
If you want to be a Theurge, I'd go with Archivist. It can already cast every spell off both the Wizard and Cleric lists (though the Wizard list is harder to get to... but hardly impossible). And it doesn't lose casting levels. Consider going Binder 1/Archivist 4/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5, with the divine adaptation of Anima Mage. That lets you rebuke somewhat (once per 5 turns, though at a -4 to your effective rebuking level), cast tons of spells, and have lots of fun abilities.

JaronK

Ilmryn
2011-01-04, 08:55 PM
Isn't TN useful for topping of a build though? If you enter MT with wiz1/clr3 using precocious apprentice, you run through MT and run out of levels. Isn't TN useful for those last 6 levels?

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-04, 09:22 PM
Isn't TN useful for topping of a build though? If you enter MT with wiz1/clr3 using precocious apprentice, you run through MT and run out of levels. Isn't TN useful for those last 6 levels?

except those 6 levels can be used on other better things.

Ecalsneerg
2011-01-04, 10:31 PM
I don't get how a Mystic Theurge is bad, so much as simply not Tier 1. It'd work out fine in play.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-04, 10:40 PM
I don't get how a Mystic Theurge is bad, so much as simply not Tier 1. It'd work out fine in play.

Its not as powerful as the base classes, so its not given a lot of good word. It actually does okay if your not trying to compete with a straight fullcaster, due to its godless number of spells.

Godskook
2011-01-04, 10:51 PM
I don't get how a Mystic Theurge is bad, so much as simply not Tier 1. It'd work out fine in play.

Mystic Theurge has two to three problems:.

1.No class features

2.No level 20 builds that support it as a primary class without shenanigans like Ur-Priest

3.Slow entry

See, with most hybrid type builds, having to put up with a poor level 6 is rewarded by actual class features by level 7 or 8, but not so with mystic theurge, which gives 10 dead levels of plain casting. Sure, more useful than 10 levels of monk, but *BORING*.

Tavar
2011-01-04, 11:05 PM
The fact that often times a Wizard or Cleric 20 will actually be better in terms of versatility or simply the ability to do their role in the group is another factor.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-04, 11:14 PM
Of course, going Mystic Theurge primarily as a cleric or archivist with a dash of wizard is almost worth the feat and the level lose for 11 levels of wizardly casting, but the bog standard Wizard 3/Cleric (hell, even Archivist) 3/Mystic Theurge 10 is terribly slow and far, far too behind on spell levels to be effective at times.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-05, 12:02 AM
So...Is it just me, or is the True Necromancer way, way better than the mystic theurge? Here's what I'm seeing:

Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10: Ends up with Caster Level 15 for both divine and arcane spells.

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/True Necromancer 14 ends up with CL 19. Plus improved rebuking and the ability to use multiple spells as spell-like abilities.

Uh...Is there something I'm missing here? It seems like the Mystic Theurge is significantly underpowered by comparison.

Cleric 5, Wiz 5, MT 10 is remarkably bad.

A better way is to A. use early entry and B. grab levels of legacy champion after you run out of MT.

So, you'll have Wiz 2, cleric 3, MT 10, LC 5 or some such. Or, you could use accelerated casting classes.

The only reason TN is looking good in comparison is because you've picked a rather poor MT build.