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Gandariel
2011-01-04, 08:57 PM
I was wondering..

If an arcane spellcaster class had:

Access and knowledge to ALL spells on the list
doesn't have to prepare them, he can choose what to cast at the moment
metamagics don't take more time

ok, it would be terribly stronger than wizard, sure


But
Is it possible to create a nonbroken class with these features? How?
I mean, to make it balanced you would have to, idk, decrease spells/day, saves, hp, whatever
The question is: how much?

JKTrickster
2011-01-04, 09:08 PM
When you say "the list" do you mean the Sorcerer/Wizard list? And they even get access to Sorc-specific spells?

Then....I would say nothing.

At the very least, they cannot have access to spells higher than 6th level, and that's at the VERY least. And still I would say the class would be a strong Tier 3, if not Tier 2 as well.

What are you balancing against anyway?

Gorgondantess
2011-01-04, 09:10 PM
Sure, I've done it. All spells, all lists, spontaneous? Stunt the growth of max spell levels and never give more than 10 spells/day.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2011-01-04, 09:19 PM
Sure, I've done it. All spells, all lists, spontaneous? Stunt the growth of max spell levels and never give more than 10 spells/day.

I think you could get away with it with enough balances. We're talking something like, "all cantrips at 1st level, only get access to level 1 spells at 5th level" levels of stunted growth. And caster level couldn't be very high either (compare it to the Warlock.) It might not be appropriate to let them have better than 3rd level spells at caster level 9 at 20th level.

An alternate approach might be to let them pick specific schools of magic a la carte (at 5th level, you get one school at 0th and 1st level spells, and 4 schools at 0th level spells.)

You should look at the Warlock from Complete Arcane for an example of how you might do this sort of thing.

Also, you have to do something to remove the temptation to take a 1-level dip into the class for free cure minor wounds. (Nothing grants free healing without steep prereqs.) Limiting them to wizard spells only might work.

There are many, many, many low-level spells with durations that could be horribly abused. Even with 1st-level spells, you'd be walking around all day wearing mage armor, longstrider, and all five kinds of resist energy while disguised and riding a mount. (But an easy fix is to say that you can only have so many duration spells active at once, and one of your class features could be extra duration spells or the ability to cast X number of duration spells per day that don't count against your current set.)

EDIT: No need to worry about unlimited cure spells if you limit them to uses per day.

I, Dashing Cube
2011-01-04, 09:50 PM
While it does seem at first very OP, the fact is that even if you know every single arcane spell in existence, and are able to cast any of them at any time, you aren't getting a lot more power out of the spells. The thing is, a Wizard who knows what he's doing doesn't need to be able to cast every spell, and ends up using the same spells all the time. Furthermore, given enought time, he can learn his whole spell list (but not sorcerer exclusifs). Verstility is useful, but in itself isn't really that great. That's why STP Erudite and Archivist are on the same tier as Wizard and Cleric, even if they know a lot more spells/powers.

I would recommend limiting the amount of spells per day (perhaps so they can cast 0 spell of a given level when they first learn it), and delay the level of spell level acquisition by 1 (sorcerer-like level) or 2. You could also make it MAD, with its casting using one stat and the number of bonus spells, another (on an other tought, you could simply get rid of the bonus spells gained by high ability modifier). Delaying or reducing the classe's spell per day too much just eliminates the point of being able to cast any spell, because you could only cast a few low level ones.

Dante & Vergil
2011-01-05, 03:45 AM
Frank from the Gaming Den made this (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=40573&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) (second post down), and along with the Den's hatred for increased Metamagic time, making it an unspoken rule to not increase casting time with metamagic enhancing, it covers everything you need.
...And balanced? Well around the Den it is, but around here, probably not.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2011-01-05, 09:21 PM
Well, I guess all you have to do now is write it up, Gandariel. It'll probably have d4 hit points and 2 skill points per level.

Gandariel
2011-01-05, 10:29 PM
Nah, i never tried and i don't think i would be able to do something like this.. it was just a random question..(even though with a bit of help and large copypasting...)

So anyway, if i gave all poor saves, 2+int skills, only 1hp+con per level and about half the spells/day of a wizard, how would it be?
( besides ridiculously useless at first levels?)
Edit: and also limit to 1 the max number of bonus spells for high Int?