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wayfare
2011-01-05, 02:58 AM
In my never-ending quest to create a bunch of tier 3 classes for my upcoming mega-campaign, I turn to my most difficult quandary yet...transforming the Monk from lowly tier 5 to tier 4 or 3.

Here is a preliminary attempt:

The Disciple of the Saints Way

The Disciples of the Saints Way are monks who dedicate themselves to perfecting their bodies to the limits of the possible, eventually transcending mortal flesh to become a being of unified thought and deed.

The Path of the Saints Way is a martial discipline that begins by training reflexes and toughening muscles, transforming frail flesh into a perfected form. The study is rigorously alchemical in nature, using the techniques learned in traditional alchemy and applying them to the bodily humors. Once the Disciple understands how his body works, he learns how to infuse himself with Ki energy, a vital force channeled through these humors to achieve amazing results.

As training progresses, the Disciple learns how to avoid attack with supernatural ease, deliver blows with exceptional precision and power, and enhance himself with ambient Ki energy to transform his hands into mystic weapons. Eventually, the disciple begins performing acts that seem nearly impossible, stretching his perception of reality and preparing him for an existence as a superior being.



The Monk: Disciple of the Saints Way
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Unarmed Damage|AC/Enhancement Bonus

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Improved Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus, Serene Strike|1d8(20/x2)|0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Evasion, Uncanny Dodge|1d8(20/x2)|0

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Perfected Form|1d8(20/x2)|0

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Ki Focus (Standard)|1d8(19-20/x2)|+1

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Punish the Impudent|1d8(19-20/x2)|+1

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Flowing Assault (Half), Opportune Strike|1d8(19-20/x2)|+1

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|Ki Focus (move)|1d8(19-20/x2)|+1

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Iron Fist|1d10(19-20/x2)|+2

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge|1d10(19-20/x2)|+2

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Ki Focus (No AAO)|1d10(19-20/x2)|+2

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+8|Faultless Flurry|1d10(19-20/x2)|+2

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+9|Slippery Mind|1d10(19-20/x3)|+3

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|Twin Focus|1d10(19-20/x3)|+3

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|Ki Lance|1d10(19-20/x3)|+3

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Diamond Soul|1d10(19-20/x3)|+3

16th|
+16/11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|Flowing Assault (Full)|2d6(19-20/x3)|+4

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Adamant Soul|2d6(19-20/x3)|+4

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|?|2d6(19-20/x3)|+4

19th|
+19/+14/+8/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|?|2d6(19-20/x3)|+4

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Ki Maneuver|2d6(18-20/x3)|+5[/table]

Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Alchemy) (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Disciple of the Saints Way is trained in the use of the Quarterstaff and His Unarmed Strikes. The Disciple receives no training in any armor or shields, and suffers sever penalties if using these items.

Superior Unarmed Strike: The Disciple of the Saints way Begins play with the Improved unarmed strike feat. Intensive training has made their unarmed attacks even more potent -- at level 1 a Disciple inflicts 1d8(20/x2) damage on a successful unarmed attack. The damage inflicted as well as critical threat increases at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter.

AC Bonus: While unarmored and unencumbered, the Disciple of the Saints Way adds his Wisdom Modifier to his Armor Class. This bonus to AC is also applied against Touch Attacks and while the Disciple is flat footed. It does not apply while the Monk is Immobilized.
At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus to AC increases by 1.

Serene Strike: The Disciple of the Saints Way strikes with faultless precision, his every attack finding a weak spot upon his target. The Disciple may use his Wisdom score in place of his Strength score when making melee attacks and inflicting melee damage with his unarmed strike or quarterstaff.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Early on in his studies, the Disciple of the Saints way must master the twofold art of avoidance, banishing surprise from his mind to seek total clarity in combat.
At 2nd level, a Disciple retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

At 9th level, the Disciple perfects the twofold art of avoidance, gaining Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Perfected Form: Simple mastery of reflexes is only the very beginning of the training a Disciple of the Saints Way must undergo -- true mastery of the self requires control over the bodily humors through which life flows.
At 3rd level, the Disciple of the Saints Way has mastered the art of internal alchemy, and is thereafter immune to disease and poisons, supernatural or mundane.

Enhanced Unarmed Strike: The Disciple of the Saints Way understands that the vital energy of life, Ki, is present in everything. When focused this power is capable of amazing feats, but even the slightest trickle of Ki power can transform rude flesh into a weapon of miraculous strength.
At 4th level, your natural weapons (but not your style weapon) gain a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. This bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels thereafter.

Ki Focus: Through rigorous training and meditation, the monk has learned how to call forth Ki energy, a poorly understood power rising from the union of mind, body, and spirit. Summoning Ki Focus is a Standard Action that provokes an attack of opportunity, requiring a DC 20 Concentration check.
Ki Focus can be maintained indefinitely, though many powerful effects are manifested when you expend your Ki Focus. Expending your Ki Focus is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Characters cannot stack Ki Focus -- you are either focused or not. At higher levels, a Disciple can overcome this limitation.
Any monk can expend his Ki Focus to gain one of the following benefits:

Take 15 on Jump, Tumble, or Balance checks. This is identical to taking 10 on a skill roll, except you add 15 to your skill bonus. You an even manifest this ability when under stress.

Re-Roll a Save: Before a saving throw attempt is declared a success or a failure, the monk may expend his Ki Focus to re-roll that save. The monk must take the second result.

At level 7, regaining Ki Focus takes a move action instead of a Standard action.
At level 10, regaining Ki Focus no longer triggers an attack of opportunity

Punish the Impudent: The Disciple of the Saints Way knows a simple truth: force is ever the slave to insight and foresight. Those who strike a Disciple without precision are certain to learn this lesson.
At 5th level, as an immediate action you may expend your Ki Focus to activate this maneuver. After activating this effect, any foes who attack you in melee combat and miss are subject to an attack of opportunity. This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

Flowing Assault: The Disciple of the Saints Way moves with speed and grace, his attack a harmonious storm.
At 6th level, the Disciple has learned how to move and attack in the same round. The Disciple may move up to half his speed and take a full attack action.
At 16th level, the Disciple may take a full move and full attack action in the same round.

Opportune Strike: The Masters of the Saints way teach an important lesson: the unwary warrior is his own worst enemy.
At 6th level, when making an attack of opportunity, double the threat range of your natural or style weapon.

Iron Fist: Mastery over the bodily humors allows the Disciple of the Saints Way to focus the force of his muscles into a blow of superlative power, striking as a thing of iron.
At 8th you may expend your ki focus as a swift action to maximize the damage inflicted by your melee attacks this round (including your style bonus damage).

Faultless Flurry: Unifying the techniques embodied in Flowing assault and Iron Fist, the Disciple of the Saints Way moves with precision an power to deliver a series of spectacular blows.
At 11th level, as part of a full attack you may expend you Ki Focus; all attacks you make in this round are made at your highest attack bonus.

Slippery Mind (Ex): Rigorous mastery over the body toughens the mind -- devotion to the body perfects it. A Disciple who has learned this important lesson begins to travel the path of true mastery, unifying his body mind and will.
At 12th level, if the monk is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on
her saving throw.

Twin Focus: In unifying thought and action, the Disciple understands the discrete parts of his essence -- the physical body that manifests action and the mind that creates action. With this understanding comes the ability to imbue both portions of the self with vital Ki Energy, a significant step towards true perfection.

At 13th level, the disciple gains the ability to maintain two ki focus effects at the same time. The disciple can activate expend each Focus in the same round, though he may only regain focus once per round.

Ki Lance: Approaching perfection causes perception to shift for a disciple of the saints way. Universal concepts like distance and time become uncertain, and miraculous powers begin to emerge from this enlightened dissonance. Many Disciples who reach this level go mad, unable to reconcile the higher truths emerging from this frisson.
At 14th level, you may expend your Ki Focus as a swift action to give your melee attacks a reach of (Level + Wisdom) feet. While making attacks, you appear to be simultaneously adjacent to your opponent and distant, as if you were controlling an identical copy of yourself.
Some scholars claim that the Disciples of the Shadowed path were created by a Master of the Saints Way who was particularly fascinated with this aspect of his studies.

Diamond Soul (Ex): At 15th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.

Adamant Soul: The Disciple of the Saints way is a mirror upon which the workings of others are reflected -- no force can compel him, no art alter him.
At 17th level, when you are targeted with a spell that is defeated by your Diamond Soul class feature, you may expend your Ki Focus as a swift action to reflect that spell back upon its caster. Treat the spell exactly as if the caster had cast the spell on himself.
This maneuver has no effect upon area of effect spells.

Perfect Self: The Disciple of the Saints Way has perfected his earthly body by unifying his mind, body, and spirit. The alchemical processes at work since the early days of his training have sublimated the imperfections of his form, transforming him into a creature of pure will.

At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider with the native subtype rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/adamatine. Finally, the monk raises his 2 lowest attributes and raises them 2 points, perfecting his bodily essence.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-05, 03:57 AM
In my never-ending quest to create a bunch of tier 3 classes for my upcoming mega-campaign, I turn to my most difficult quandary yet...transforming the Monk from lowly tier 5 to tier 4 or 3.

So, what does the monk need to get there?

1) Lack of MAD -- make things wisdom based, easy enough

But with that big issue out of the way, what else does the monk need to be bumped up a tier or 2?

A defining factor for the monk. Most of the people whom have made homebrew (including myself) have defined upon a single set of things that define what the Monk brings to the party, and how do they bring that up.

For example: some state the unarmed variant of the Swordsage as a good start, since it provides the concept of the Monk with a few extras (most notably mobility through Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand, skill at grappling and tripping through Setting Sun, resilience through Stone Dragon even though this discipline needs some help, supernatural abilities through Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, amongst others). What makes unarmed Swordsage so appealing to Monk players is the fact that virtually everything that the Monk offers, the Swordsage not only offers a better option but also things that go with it (including flying, better defense abilities and specifically a good way to hit). Thing is, playing a Swordsage as a Monk is an option, but a Swordsage wasn't meant to be merely a Monk replacement. Most might not agree with this statement, but Swordsage is meant to replicate what Li Mu Bai and most wuxia warriors were, instead of mostly replicating what a Monk does (since a wuxia doesn't necessarily has to be a Monk, and in fact it rarely is a Monk since the requirement of the latter is strict ascetism and the lack of attachment to the world).

Others place psionics as a very good complement to the Monk, specifically after the introduction of Tashalatora (a feat that allows progression of the most basic abilities of the Monk). With that feat and a psionic class that progresses through Wisdom, there's enough synergy to make it work. In fact, it's the path that Wizards of the Coast eventually ended up working with on 4th Edition, and for good reasons; psionics wasn't really divorced from the Monk's ascetism and physical/mental/spiritual pursuit of perfection. However, it brings the unfortunate circumstance of not progressing as a Monk, but rather as an Ardent or Psychic Warrior, which was basically limiting (or in the case of the Ardent, improving ever so slightly) the potential of the classes in order to pursue a specific build.

And then there's the homebrews. There are two leading ideas in here; one has the Monk closer to what a Fighter does (I subscribe mostly to that idea), and thus make the Monk resilient, capable of great damage but not much of a skill monkey. Other homebrewers go the opposite way, making the Monk a sort of resilient skill monkey with more skill points and abilities that reinforce the Monk's skills, its mobility and evasive abilities. Then comes the way that is done: some do a pretty straightforward psionic progression (the bulk, I'd say), some mix it with the Swordsage by adding a maneuver progression to it, at least two (me, plus the official Pathfinder version) use ki as with the Ninja from Complete Adventurer, and others simply grant more uses of the Monk's abilities.

Regardless of what you eventually subscribe into, there are certain things a Monk must have in order to be functional.
1) Full BAB. This isn't as important if you're aiming the Monk as a skill monkey (for example; the Monk homebrewed fix done by jiriku ascribes to that idea, and thus keeps BAB at Medium, which is fine since his intention is to lead the Monk into a better skill monkey focused on mobility and stealth as one of its many functions). However, the leading idea is that all Monk fixes should have full BAB.

2) Solve the mobility issue. Flurry of Blows, a key ability of the Monk, requires the Monk to stay still; however, it eventually gets Fast Movement, Evasion, Tumble and Abundant Step. The leading idea is to allow the monk to either flurry as a standard action (thus moving and attacking twice) or allowing the monk to move half its total movement as a swift or free action, replacing the 5-foot step (thus, it can move and do a full attack, a pounce of sorts). You'll notice powers like Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge, or the Pouncing Charge maneuver are highly recommended for this action.

3) More uses of specific abilities. These include Abundant Step and Quivering Palm. Especially Quivering Palm, because using it once per week makes it really, really pointless.

4) Less dependency on multiple abilities. It doesn't has to be Wisdom; however, you shouldn't need good Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom to make a Monk useful. Thus, allowing the Monk to add Wisdom to its attack and damage rolls is often enough, allowing the Monk to focus on three stats at most.

5) d10 HD. Basically needed if you're intending the Monk as a front-liner, since that will reduce the dependency on a high Constitution score. If you're intending to see it as a skill-monkey, then a d8 is sufficient. The idea is that with a d10 HD and good Fortitude saving throw, you might need less Constitution, hence relying mostly on Wisdom and Dexterity.

6) Allow your unarmed strikes to be enchanted. This is crucial, since while your weapons end up being magical, they cannot be enchanted with special abilities such as flaming or holy. Usually, that is achieved through granting the Monk a progression on its ki strike that adds an effective enhancement bonus, or a simple caveat that you can enhance unarmed strikes by using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. You might want to work with enchanting robes or clothes as well, in order to allow Monks the benefit of armor without wearing one.

Perhaps people already have given their reasons and perhaps they'll link to their works (this being the Homebrew Forum, after all), but what's really important is to make a decision as to what you believe the Monk should be. If you're fine with unarmed Swordsage, go with it; if you're fine with Fax's monk, jiriku's Monk, or any of the other Monk revampings in this forum (which you can find through the search function), then go for it. If you find it's not enough, consider what's above and work around that.

DracoDei
2011-01-05, 02:59 PM
I once did a monk fix... it was horrible, but that was OK because it took me all of 5 or 10 minutes or so.

I won't bore you with all the details since the concepts have been mentioned before... (check my extended signature if you really want to see it).

There was one thing I did that was interesting enough that I will mention it here was that I EMBRACED M.A.D. rather than fighting it. Monks are supposed to pursue balance and advancement of all aspects of the body and mind. So what I did was I said that at first level they picked 4 or more of their ability scores, and each level (including the first) they added a point to the LOWEST one (character's choice if two tied for lowest). The response I got on that point was that it wasn't enough. Perhaps if you up it to 1 point every even numbered level and 2 points (applied as two separate steps, one after the other) on odd numbered levels (including 1st). I don't know, I am throwing out a design concept, not a specific mechanic. And yes, you would probably see people dipping monk for the ability score points, but it due to the nature of how the points must be distributed, it wouldn't break anything I don't think, since it only fights MAD.

A way of combining the two approaches would be to get down to 3 ability scores for the class dependencies (perhaps via that d10 HD concept), and then make it "pick 3 at first level" rather than "pick 4"... personally, I would rather crank up the boosts until 4 or even 5 worked than try for "pick 3", but whatever you can make work (assuming you use the idea at all). If you gotta crank it up to 3 ability score points per level (which would be ridiculous, but I am trying to make a point here) then that is fine.

YMMV

kryan
2011-01-05, 03:20 PM
I have yet to see a Monk fix that even remotely approaches the Unarmed Swordsage in quality, balance, or "Monkishness". In my opinion, the correct way to "fix" the Monk is to crack open Tome of Battle and read the Swordsage and the unarmed variant.

wayfare
2011-01-05, 03:55 PM
I want to diversify the monk a bit -- what always got me were the lack of unique moves to se the monk apart. For a martial arts master, the class seemed like such a generalist.

One thing I am considering is giving the monk a "Ki Focus" ability. It would work like psionic focus, in that when you expend it you generate cool and useful effects -- stunning fist would be tied to it, as would quivering palm.

Overall, I'm looking to create multiple monk classes:

1) Great BAB and maneuvers to empahsize partial arts prowess. No fast move, but wisdom based eveything. The Monk-King of battle.

2) A monk that focuses on fast move, gaining the ability to dimension door = to 1/2 fast move as a move action. Also gains sudden strike.

Are these ideas workable?

kryan
2011-01-05, 04:16 PM
Yes, but both strike me as reinventing the wheel as the Swordsage can do either or something in between and can also be built to match some other archetypes besides...

wayfare
2011-01-05, 04:45 PM
ToB is great stuff, but it is also part of the latter end od 3.5 which started playing with new concepts like encounter-based powers. I want to create something functional that is nevertheless closer to core, and I think that can be done.

I don't expect it to be as good as the Swordase per-se (which, lets be honest, is what the Warmage should have been and does a better job at it too), but I'd like for the class to be intuitive and hard to mess up and full of options.

That, to me, is the greatest failing of the 3.5 core combat classes. They lack options that they should simply have -- the only real benefit to being a guy who fights is that your fighting skills don't wear off. You don't expend moves, they are simply something you can do.

kryan
2011-01-05, 05:09 PM
3.5 Core is pretty much entirely fail. I don't see any point in trying to salvage it, especially when the later books are so much better designed. The Bard is the only class in the PHB that's really decent (balanced and unique), and it only gets decent when you add non-Core material.

Anyway, if you really feel like redoing all of that work, then yes, certainly, it could be done.

Zeta Kai
2011-01-05, 05:16 PM
Synergy, synergy, synergy. The monk gets lots of things, but it's like the mystic theurge; what it gets doesn't work well together, can't be used at the same time so it's always a trade-off, & it always behind the power curve of other classes. The monk needs to be able to combine its powers in a cohesive, potent package, something that it currently cannot. To this end:

Full BAB is a must.
All of its features should be keyed to Wisdom only.
It needs some means of performing a full-attack/flurry-of-blows & moving its full speed in the same round, either via a pounce, a charge, or some other movement power.
Its defensive powers should compound in a useful way. Immunity to diseases: fine, but how does that help in battle most of the time? Becoming an outsider: okay, but how does that help either? A monk needs to move around quickly & hit things a lot (or perform some other combat role), & most of its features don't facilitate that at all.

Even all of that may not be enough to move it more than one tier lower, but it's a good start.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-05, 07:06 PM
I have yet to see a Monk fix that even remotely approaches the Unarmed Swordsage in quality, balance, or "Monkishness". In my opinion, the correct way to "fix" the Monk is to crack open Tome of Battle and read the Swordsage and the unarmed variant.

What about Tashalatora, which is far much better than the unarmed Swordsage and actually incorporates Monk levels? Remember that, while the Swordsage has cool and useful moves from level 1, their true worth is not gained until you've chosen a lot of abilities in order to get to the good ones (Pouncing Charge, Shadow Blink, etc.) Meanwhile, getting some psionics really diversifies the Monk, since you could get better defenses that way, better bonuses to attack, and several feats that increment the base damage of the Monk, as well as the possibility to gain abilities that really push the limits of the Monk. Yet, that would be comparing Swordsage against Psychic Warrior, and as I stated, both are better when using other builds rather than hammering Monk flavor into them.

That...also seems like no advice to someone who's actually homebrewing... The OP wants advice, not "give up and just keep it official stuff".


I want to diversify the monk a bit -- what always got me were the lack of unique moves to se the monk apart. For a martial arts master, the class seemed like such a generalist.

One thing I am considering is giving the monk a "Ki Focus" ability. It would work like psionic focus, in that when you expend it you generate cool and useful effects -- stunning fist would be tied to it, as would quivering palm.

Overall, I'm looking to create multiple monk classes:

1) Great BAB and maneuvers to empahsize partial arts prowess. No fast move, but wisdom based eveything. The Monk-King of battle.

2) A monk that focuses on fast move, gaining the ability to dimension door = to 1/2 fast move as a move action. Also gains sudden strike.

Are these ideas workable?

Hmm...while a bit like what Pathfinder did, and simply hard to work in a real game, you could do a bit what DDO did for the Monk class.

The DDO Monk has a Ki bar which fills as you do certain actions. The bar starts at a certain level (starting point based on your maximum Constitution score) and increases as you attack. However, the bar resets every certain amount of seconds, based on your Constitution score.

For example: assume your total Constitution score is 13. You'd start all encounters with a Ki pool of 13. With each successful attack, you'd gain 1 point of Ki; this is cumulative, and you could gain more than one point of Ki every turn. However, between 14 and 26, you'd lose 1 point of Ki every two seconds or so (basically 1 point per turn), between 27 to 42 you'd lose 2 points, and so on.

However, that's not what makes it special. You gain four stances and four moves you can execute, each related to a specific element. For example: the Fire stance increases your Strength, reduces your Wisdom, and allows you to double ki acquisition with each hit; its attack consumes 5 points of Ki and deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage. Wind stance, on the other hand, increases your Dexterity but reduces your Constitution, and allows increased attack speed (in terms of D&D, you gain an extra attack when making a full attack action); it's elemental attack consumes 5 points of Ki to deal an extra 1d6 electricity damage. All are done essentially quick, so they'd count as free actions as part of a melee attack (sorta like boosts, but they activate with each attack instead of modifying all of your attacks).

Furthermore, there are special moves that you can do whenever you "chain" moves. For example, assume you've spent 15 Ki to deal three attacks with the Fire elemental attack. If you don't change your stance, or make an elemental attack of a different element than that of your chain, you can execute a finishing move next turn; in the case of Fire, it's a burst of flame (a la Burning Hands) that deals somewhere between 1d10 and 3d6 points of fire damage to everything in range. That costs a bit more Ki (about 10 points), but makes the Monk quite different.

Ki can be used for other things. Stunning Fist uses 15 points of Ki, for example, and some other abilities also require Ki consumption. Quivering Palm requires 30 Ki, for example (but can be used at any time), and Wholeness of Body consumes 10 Ki but cannot be used during battle (mostly when you're recovering).

The problem with the system was that it was designed for a real-time battle system and not one that's turn based. Doing backwards compatibility with that version of the Monk is simply difficult (not impossible, but it requires fine manipulation of the mechanics of 3.5 and the mechanics of DDO). That doesn't mean you can't get ideas from it, which resembles a bit the idea of Ki Focus you intend to use. The problem with Ki Focus is that it's an artificial construct based off Psionic Focus, something that will lead people to ask "why not make it Psionics in the first place?", since you could simply work a stunning attack for the Monk that enables off Psionic Focus, and opens the door to psionic powers (such as Inertial Armor, Thicken Skin, Animal Affinity, Hustle, Psionic Lion's Charge, Oak Body, Claws of the Vampire, Extension, and so on).


3.5 Core is pretty much entirely fail. I don't see any point in trying to salvage it, especially when the later books are so much better designed. The Bard is the only class in the PHB that's really decent (balanced and unique), and it only gets decent when you add non-Core material.

Yet, the Core rulebooks of 3.5 are the basis of pretty much every single book that came afterwards. You can't ignore Core; you can, though, attempt to lead some of the Core classes to a better point in the game design, if what you intend to say is true. Again: while you could do a nice Monk with the Swordsage using the unarmed variant, that is pigeonholing the class into a specific type of warrior, when the Swordsage really screams wuxia (which doesn't imply being a Shaolin monk; quite the contrary, most of the wuxing really couldn't care about ascetism until later in their lives, and had more important things than staying on a monastery). That'd be like pigeonholing Li Mu Bai as a monk using Unarmed Swordsage, when you could see that he pretty much favored the sword. And most Wuxia flicks have heroes that prefer the sword, the spear or the quarterstaff anyways.

Also: better design? My apologies, but I don't think later books in the game really have better "design"; case in point, the Truenamer. Awesome flavor, impressive abilities, but the mechanics are just impossible to deal with. That wasn't done in the beginning of D&D, but pretty much at the end of its run. Factotum is a wonderfully done class, and one that gives the Rogue a run for its money...except that people simply can't decide how the inspiration points recover. Crusader is also a cool class, one that redefines tanking...but the recharge mechanic still causes controversy. Also, you could trust that early games had some sort of errata; later games have none, and some have errata for a different book altogether. How about Tome of Battle itself, which has errata for Complete Mage right afterwards, and really doesn't resolve some of the most important questions (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, amongst others) that the book had? What you could claim (and it would be right) is that the design between the start of 3.5 and the end of 3.5 swept in a different way; the start of 3.5 had classes still too close to the original editions, while latter books had the intention to tweak the game into something different, bold I'd dare say. But bold doesn't necessarily mean "better" or "balanced"; it is PHB II that brought the Celerity line that makes Wizards break action economy, for example.

kryan
2011-01-05, 07:58 PM
I'm spoilering this because it's very off-topic.
Core has by far the largest power disparity of any one book in the game. Tome of Magic has the Truenamer, which is worse than a Monk, but then the highest-powered class in that book was the Binder, which is a lot weaker than the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard, so the actual difference in power is much smaller than in Core.

Core also has almost all of the most broken spells in 3.5 - yes, Player's Handbook II has Celerity and Frostburn has Shivering Touch, but Core has the entire Polymorph line, Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, the Planar Ally/Planar Binding lines, Gate, Time Stop, Contingency, the Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation lines, Teleport (and Greater), Scrying, Commune, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles - I can go on. Aside from Celerity and Shivering Touch, I'm not aware of non-Core spells that approach that level of broken. Certainly not at that quantity.

And then there's the sheer insult that is the Fighter, the worst-designed (not-designed?) class in the game. Even if the Monk, Paladin, and Ranger are weaker (and they probably are, at least in Core), at least they have class features. And in the same book that has those broken spells, we have them seriously telling us that Greater Weapon Specialization is good for something.

I'm not saying later books are without errors or poor design - the CWar Samurai (though that wasn't that late), the ToM Truenamer, Celerity, the Planar Shepherd, etc. I am saying that the overall, average quality of design basically improves as time goes by. Tome of Battle has by far the tightest balancing of any book published by WotC for 3.5.


As for Tashalatora, I dispute your assertion that including levels in the Monk class make it "more monkly" - because the Monk class fails at what it was trying to do. In fact, a Tashalatora build is better if you don't actually take levels in Monk (yes, you can do that). Tashalatora is quite cool, and is a solid counter-argument to unarmed Swordsage, but personally I think it doesn't differentiate itself enough from a regular Psychic Warrior or Ardent to really 'work' for me as a monk replacement. Swordsage does.

Also, I don't agree that Swordsage is better if you "don't hammer monk flavor into them" - unarmed Swordsages compare to their armed counterparts quite nicely (and armed Swordsages can still be monkly by using things like quarterstaves as their weapons), making a "monkly" Swordsage is primarily about maneuver selection, taking more Tiger Claw and Setting Sun than Desert Sun or Shadow Hand (or you flavor the monk somewhat differently from the PHB one and still use those schools, since they definitely have maneuvers to offer a monk).

But anyway, I think you're too hung up on the name "monk" - see Miko's complaint about Samurai. Tashalatora isn't more monkly just because it might be done as Monk 2/Ardent 18 - the Monk levels mean nothing. Similarly, a homebrewed fix may not be more monkly just because the name on the class is "Monk" - it would be if it achieved the flavor of a monk better. Which I think will be very hard, because the unarmed Swordsage does an extremely good job of realizing that flavor.

Anyway I think "don't reinvent the wheel" is reasonable advice for a homebrewer. If someone had posted a full Monk class, I would not be here saying "this is crap, use Swordsage." - but for someone asking for advice on how to improve the Monk, I will say "use the Swordsage". There doesn't need to be any homebrew done here. I don't think there's much to be gained by it. You could come up with something cool with a lot of work, but I've read quite a few Monk fixes - and none has stood up to the Swordsage (or Tashalatora, for that matter) to me.

Part of the issue is that what makes a Monk, a Monk, is extremely vague. This is a large part of the reason why the PHB Monk is awful - they gave it a mish-mash of abilities, rather than anything cohesive. It doesn't seem to me that the OP has specific ideas - indeed, he came here looking for them, it seems - so I think if he is to reject the Swordsage, he has to determine why - what about the Swordsage fails to replace the Monk for him?

NineThePuma
2011-01-05, 08:33 PM
Swordsage. Swordsage. Swordsage.

At the risk of sounding rude, "Oh, go use Swordsage!" or "Take Swordsage as your start point!" or similar is not only tacky, but unhelpful. Swordsage is NOT OGL, and neither is the Maneuver system. Moreover, there is no Unarmed Swordsage Variant. There were no Swordsage variant classes or Alternate Class Features released by WotC at any point. There is a suggestion for adapting the Swordsage. It is right next to the one that suggests giving the Swordsage spells.

Having said that.

Oskar makes a good case with the following list of basics.


1) Full BAB.
2) Solve the mobility issue.
3) More uses of specific abilities.
4) Less dependency on multiple abilities.
5) d10 HD.
6) Allow your unarmed strikes to be enchanted.

I particularly like "Wis to Damage and To Hit" along with "Flurry on any attack." since that helps reduce MAD quite well.

As an alternative to allowing the strikes themselves to be enchanted, the Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) could easily be reinterpretted as an "Amulet that transfers the enchantments on it to my natural weapons and unarmed strikes." for a 5,000 gp cost. It's not cheap, and it's clumsy, but it works well.

I was never particularly attached to Quivering Palm, but if you're going to keep it, definitely up the DC (10+Mink Level+Wis Mod) and improve the number of uses (1/day) OR make it absolutely ridiculously awesome (DC=20+Mink Level+Wis Mod, Touch attack to hit with it, does not need to deal damage). It's a SoD that has a tough save, but it's less craptastic and is actually useful against giant monsters. The Uber version makes it truly impressive when you kill a big ol' Dragon with it, but is probably too powerful.

kryan
2011-01-05, 09:29 PM
OGL is not a requirement for homebrew (note the massive amount of custom ToB classes and disciplines on these forums). Secondly, all any variant is is an idea; Unarmed Swordsage works pretty nicely out of the box, Arcane Swordsage does not (which does not mean it cannot be done well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8887683#post8887683)). As noted in my spoilered piece, you don't need the unarmed variant to be monkly, either.

Finally, while my posts have gone off-topic for the purpose of responding to criticism of my initial position, my initial point, which I have been forced to defend from attacks further and further from the original topic, was, I maintain, perfectly valid: there's a perfectly good option already out there, which is going to be very difficult to improve upon, in my opinion. I was merely seeking to help the OP avoid unnecessary work in reinventing the wheel.

But fine; I've said my piece, and everyone who has a problem with it is only derailing this thread, so I'll stop.

averagejoe
2011-01-05, 10:57 PM
The Mod They Call Me: Kryan is right about this conversation veering off topic, I think. The point about the swordsage has been made and noted. The points against it have been made and noted. Let's move on before this becomes a ToB/non-ToB thread.

One bit of the monk I always liked was getting more mileage out of stunning fist than other classes, though I think this should be built into the monk instead of the feat. One thing that can give the monk options is giving extra stuff for the bonus feats he gets. I've always liked to add onto mobility an ability that makes full attacking after moving easier (such as the ability to full attack after moving ten feet instead of five). I usually do this as just a fix to the feat, but as something the monk can do with the feat that others can't this works fine too. It's a rather quick and dirty solution, and probably needs other stuff on top of it, but it has an elegance I find attractive.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-05, 11:20 PM
OP: I almost forgot; if you're going to do something to the Monk, please procure it has proficiency with unarmed strikes. At least make it redundant, if only to prevent having to go by RAW.

@Quivering Palm: make it a feat. Or make it related to the daily uses of Stunning Fist. Quivering Palm sounds to me like the natural progression of Freezing the Lifeblood (stunning -> paralysis -> death), so it's natural that the "vibrations" emanate from the same type of energy as Stunning Fist. It also makes Stunning Fist far more useful. However, if you intend to keep it as a class ability, give it more uses, and make it easier to work with.

Jota
2011-01-06, 01:40 AM
Increasing damage output will make the jump from tier five to four. Full BAB and enchanted fists (not treated as enchanted for overcoming damage reduction) will do that, and you could do Wisdom to attack and damage up to a maximum of 1/3 class level (minimum one) instead of having the enchanted fists, and then simply keep Ki Strike relatively as is. Boosting AC (with some form of armor bonus built into the class) would also help.

Getting to tier three from there is where you start talking about the mobility/utility/whatever else issues. It's tier two, but the Dungeonomicon (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dungeonomicon_(3.5e_Sourcebook)) monk (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Monk,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)) by Frank and K shows how they went about addressing this issue, which might be an interesting perspective to contrast with what has already been discussed here (and the swordsage). You could even just scale down the fighting styles, since the Tome Monk gives you the numerical chassis for success.

wayfare
2011-01-06, 09:40 PM
Ok, so here is a very preliminary version of my monk up at the top of the page. The idea was to create a monk centered on the idea of bodily perfection.

Big Changes:

No Fast Move: Agility is given precedence over speed -- Uncanny dodge and Improved uncanny dodge keep AC nice and high. This monk cant move as fast as the traditional monk, but he's harder to hurt.

Monk Damage Is A Bit More Sensible: I hated that size table. Now monks gain a bonus to damage with unarmed attacks and when using a specific weapons (in this case a quarterstaff). At the monk levels up, more damage is earned, and critical threat goes up a lot.

No Flurry of Blows: This is not a speed monk (I'm designing a monk to focus on speed, but this ain't him). He doesn't get more attacks, but he does gain the ability to take all attacks at his full attack bonus (there is a price, so its not silly)

Enhancement Bonus: A monk's unarmed strikes gain an enhancement bonus that scales with his AC bonus. I'm also creating an item that can transfer weapon enhancements to a monks natural weapons 9thinking hand/feet wrappings).

No Slow Fall: Speed monks thing

Ki Focus: Kinda like psionic focus, you can spend it to activate class features. Will design feats to use it as well.

Special Maneuvers: Some class features are powered by ki focus -- like the ability to maximize unarmed damage or the ability to add reach to your natural attacks.

The Alchemy Skill: The Saints Way is an alchemical discipline. Its fluff, but cool fluff: monk who makes potions of firebreathing = AWESOME!

Whats Needed

Criticism: And lots of it.

Tier Ranking: Where does it fit in?

More Criticism: I can take it!

thanks for the help and discussion so far. hope you'll help me finish this class!

DracoDei
2011-01-06, 11:10 PM
I still say embracing MAD is the way to go...

wayfare
2011-01-07, 12:11 AM
I still say embracing MAD is the way to go...

I get what you're sayin', but I'm not really too certain how to make it work...

Ozymandias
2011-01-07, 01:25 AM
Wis to attack and damage at level one is a bit much when coupled with all the other dip possibilities. A cleric (or other martially inclined Wis character) dipping this gets Wis to attack and damage using a quarterstaff that does slightly more average damage than a bastard sword (although its crit ranges are still awful I suppose), as well as 1 BaB, d8 (presumably; hit die isn't actually up) and +2 to all saves. And they get the option of dropping armor later (or sooner if they weren't going to anyway). It's not a huge issue, but I'd personally either delay Wis to damage by a couple of levels, or delay Wis to hit and give weapon finesse at 1.

There doesn't seem to be any real reason to use unarmed strikes as it is right now. Staves do slightly more damage, can be easily enchanted to suit one's needs (or looted), can be used with power attack, and gets 1.5 Strength bonus. Free +attack/damage really isn't worth a whole lot, honestly; it's generally better to just get a bunch of neat abilities on a weapon and have a wizard GMW it. Of course, it depends on the campaign, and if you're shapeshifting into a hydra or something it's still very powerful. And I guess you could spend the weapon gold on other things.

I really like the ki focus mechanic, and think it fits the class very well.

But seriously; Ki lance isn't a hadouken motion followed by a blue energy beam? Let's be reasonable here.

DracoDei
2011-01-07, 01:27 AM
I get what you're sayin', but I'm not really too certain how to make it work...
Why so? Seems to me that it is mostly just a matter of picking the right rate of progression... not that that is a trivial task by any means, but if I dig up the original thread, the responding posts might give some ideas for what that rate might be, and... it is basically a single number.

wayfare
2011-01-07, 02:02 AM
I'm testing out style bonus with a few friends, and man is it cumbersome. So back to the size table.

What do y'all think about his in terms of monk damage:

1: 1d8(20/x2)
4: 1d8(19-20/x2)
8: 1d10(19-20/x2)
12: 1d10 (19-20/x3)
16: 2d6 (19-20/x3)
20: 2d6 (18-20/x3)

I think the original progression for the monk was too cheezy for a full bab class

nonsi
2011-01-07, 10:58 AM
I'm testing out style bonus with a few friends, and man is it cumbersome. So back to the size table.

What do y'all think about his in terms of monk damage:

1: 1d8(20/x2)
4: 1d8(19-20/x2)
8: 1d10(19-20/x2)
12: 1d10 (19-20/x3)
16: 2d6 (19-20/x3)
20: 2d6 (18-20/x3)

I think the original progression for the monk was too cheezy for a full bab class

Try 1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12 at levels 1/7/13/19 respectively, just to reduce the number of dice rolled on the monk's turn (less time spent on dice-rolling = more time doing useful and fun stuff).

wayfare
2011-01-07, 11:48 AM
Changed style bonus to unarmed strike (now i've gotta do one of those freakin size tables...grrr).

Im considering a second monk that focuses on speed. Any ideas fors special abilities?

NineThePuma
2011-01-07, 01:02 PM
Use a swift action to move up to their speed bonus maybe?

DracoDei
2011-01-07, 01:53 PM
Wis to attack and damage at level one is a bit much when coupled with all the other dip possibilities.
The sword-sage's mechanic of "Wis to AC, max class level" would work. I know we aren't just going with the sword-sage here, but that doesn't mean we can't steal small pieces of it.

wayfare
2011-01-07, 01:57 PM
A few ideas for speed monk

1) Fast move as normal monk (+60 at level 20)
2) As a move action can dimension door 1/2 their fast move.
3) Swift Strike At 1st level, 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter.
4) Trained in the use of unarmed strike and (insert small bladed weapon of oriental importance -- not a katana, wakizashi, or ninja-to, though).
5) Can Daze, Stun, or slay an opponent by expending Ki Focus
6) Bonus damage on a charge.
7) 15/10/5 attack bonus

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-01-07, 10:44 PM
The sword-sage's mechanic of "Wis to AC, max class level" would work. I know we aren't just going with the sword-sage here, but that doesn't mean we can't steal small pieces of it.

The swordsage doesn't actually have that restriction; you're probably thinking of the Duelist's restriction on Int to AC.

Rainbownaga
2011-01-07, 11:43 PM
It doesn't affect the tiers much (besides allowing spitit lion totem with less cheese) but I would also remove the alignment (and possibly multi-classing) requirements. There are way too many zany kung-fu characters in popular culture and fist-fighting archetypes to require monks to be lawful.

DracoDei
2011-01-07, 11:45 PM
The swordsage doesn't actually have that restriction; you're probably thinking of the Duelist's restriction on Int to AC.

Right you are... I was thinking of the Warblades Int->Reflex Saves mechanic...

Which doesn't actually change the idea of capping the AC bonus HERE by class level.

wayfare
2011-01-08, 01:06 AM
How about moving Sublime Strike to 4th level -- if you're willing to go that far to get it, you deserve it.

Ozymandias
2011-01-08, 02:34 AM
How about moving Sublime Strike to 4th level -- if you're willing to go that far to get it, you deserve it.

You could give the Monk Intuitive Attack (wis to attack with simple and natural weapons, from BoED I think, just axe the requirements) at 1 and Wis to Damage at 3, which is more or less how the swashbuckler does it. Shame about the other 17 levels of the swashbuckler class, though.