Orbs and antimagic

[Salbazier]

Pretty sure it's been discussed before, but how does the Orb of line of spells inetract with AMF? How about Creation spells in general?

EDIT: Sorry, wrong forum. Please move it.

[SMEE]

The Rainbow mod: Thread moved.

[hamishspence]

Pretty sure it's been discussed before, but how does the Orb of line of spells inetract with AMF? How about Creation spells in general?

Conjured matter counts as nonmagical so doesn't "blink out"- so a Wall of Iron, or an Orb, would still exist. The spell can't be cast in the field itself- but the orbs can be fired into the field and still exist.

[Eldan]

Which, as a side note, is especially silly with force spells: it's perfectly normal, non-magical pure magic force.

[Yora]

Orbs are a silly idea. Always seem to me as if someone realized there are situations in which wizard is not the best class do deal with something. So they fixed that.

[Salbazier]

How about sphere of ultimate destruction?

[Psyren]

Conjured matter counts as nonmagical so doesn't "blink out"- so a Wall of Iron, or an Orb, would still exist. The spell can't be cast in the field itself- but the orbs can be fired into the field and still exist.

To clarify, Instantaneous conjured matter counts as nonmagical. If it has any other duration (even "Permanent") then it is being actively sustained by magic and will therefore wink out.

This is relevant because there are (Calling) and (Creation) effects that have durations, like Planar Exchange and Minor Creation, that will vanish in an AMF. A paladin's mount is another (Calling) effect with a duration.

[Salbazier]

^Ah, I see. Many thanks, all.

[Kansaschaser]

To clarify, Instantaneous conjured matter counts as nonmagical. If it has any other duration (even "Permanent") then it is being actively sustained by magic and will therefore wink out.

This is relevant because there are (Calling) and (Creation) effects that have durations, like Planar Exchange and Minor Creation, that will vanish in an AMF. A paladin's mount is another (Calling) effect with a duration.

Thank you Psyren. I had this same argument with someone who told me that conjured items (even ones with durations) would still exist inside an anti-magic zone/field. He said he could cast Minor Creation to create 6 gallons of Black Lotus Poison and dump it into an Anti-Magic zone/field to kill everyone inside.

[Yora]

If conjured objects and creatures would no longer be affected by magic, they wouldn't vanish at the end of the spells duration and couldn't be dispelled. Everything indicatates that magic is required to maintain their presence.

[KillianHawkeye]

If conjured objects and creatures would no longer be affected by magic, they wouldn't vanish at the end of the spells duration and couldn't be dispelled. Everything indicatates that magic is required to maintain their presence.

That's true except when the duration is instantaneous. Orb spells can't be dispelled, because it's already over.

[Yora]

That's the loophole the orbs exploit. If it's a valid solution to get around spell resistance and antimagic fields, or just cheap, is open to debate.

[Salbazier]

Regardless of antimagic, dispelling an orb makes sense as much as dispelling a fireball.

[Psyren]

I'm a fan of them being low-sentience, highly-volatile elementals. It also explains why you don't need to actually throw them. (i.e. why they are a ranged touch attack rather than a ranged attack.)

[Yuki Akuma]

Orbs can totally be dispelled - if you ready an action to counterspell with dispel magic. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Orbs can totally be dispelled - if you ready an action to counterspell with dispel magic. :smallwink:

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek here, but you're not actually stopping the orb with that; rather, you're stopping the spell that creates it. In other words, at the time you counterspell an orb spell, there is no spoon orb. :smalltongue:

[Salbazier]

Orbs can totally be dispelled - if you ready an action to counterspell with dispel magic. :smallwink:

My point exactly. It's the same with fireball :smallamused:


I'm a fan of them being low-sentience, highly-volatile elementals. It also explains why you don't need to actually throw them. (i.e. why they are a ranged touch attack rather than a ranged attack.)

Oh, that's works... But now the mind question the existence of force elemental

[hamishspence]

Maybe there's an, as yet undiscovered, Plane of Force?

Might be inhabited by various force-based creatures, and ruled by the Force Dragons from Epic Handbook.

[Emmerask]

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek here, but you're not actually stopping the orb with that; rather, you're stopping the spell that creates it. In other words, at the time you counterspell an orb spell, there is no spoon orb. :smalltongue:

Hm how about fail dispelling a trap that springs into being a wall that then stops an orb of x... okay technically the wall stopped the orb but we don´t want to nitpick :smallwink:

[Yuki Akuma]

My point exactly. It's the same with fireball :smallamused:

Nope! Orb spells work in antimagic, and fireball doesn't.

[Psyren]

Maybe there's an, as yet undiscovered, Plane of Force?

Might be inhabited by various force-based creatures, and ruled by the Force Dragons from Epic Handbook.

It could even be where a Maze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/maze.htm) sends you :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

This is an interesting thought.

Hmm- besides the Force Dragon, what would be good monsters for the Plane of Force?

[Yuki Akuma]

"Force Elementals"? They'd likely have innate invisibility and stuff.

[hamishspence]

Maybe go with the same set as the Elemental Planes get:

Elementals (from Elementite swarm, to Monolith and Primal Elemental)
Genies
Genasi
Half-elementals
Giants
Force creature template (can be applied to almost any normal creature)
Force Prince of Elemental Evil/Good.

And so on.
The "mazes region" would be a zone on the Plane of Force- but there'd be other zones as well.

Force Dragons are immune to force- and pass through objects made of it like they weren't there. I'm not sure if other Force Creatures should have that ability though.

[Urpriest]

There are Force Golems...I'm surprised that there aren't Force Elementals, really. There's probably one in a Dragon issue.

[hamishspence]

If there are, I haven't seen any.

Radiant creature (for the Plane of Radiance) existed in one issue- but not Radiant Elementals.

Some planes don't get as much coverage- even in Dragon.

Though the para-elemental creatures are almost as well covered as the elemental ones if Dragon material is used- monoliths, element-creatures, etc.

Ice seems to get the most- with genies in Frostburn, and a Prince of Elemental Evil in Dragon.

[Salbazier]

Nope! Orb spells work in antimagic, and fireball doesn't.

I mean the dispell thing...

Force genie, that interesting. Perhaps I should rename the thread? :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

Orbs can totally be dispelled - if you ready an action to counterspell with dispel magic. :smallwink:

While you can use the dispel magic spell to counter a spell being cast, counterspelling isn't actually the same thing as dispelling. You counterspell a spell being cast. You dispel a spell or magical effect that is already in existence.

[hamishspence]

Force genie, that interesting. Perhaps I should rename the thread? :smalltongue:

I'd be tempted to create a "Plane of Force" thread over in Homebrew- but I lack experience at writing stats and fluff.

[Yuki Akuma]

While you can use the dispel magic spell to counter a spell being cast, counterspelling isn't actually the same thing as dispelling. You counterspell a spell being cast. You dispel a spell or magical effect that is already in existence.

I know how counterspelling works thank you.

But the assumption is that you counterspell with dispel magic by dispelling the spell as it's cast - which is why you need to make a dispel check.

[KillianHawkeye]

But the assumption is that you counterspell with dispel magic by dispelling the spell as it's cast - which is why you need to make a dispel check.

Okay. But with an instantaneous spell like an Orb, once the magic part has finished there is nothing to dispel. When you counter it like that, you are "dispelling" the magic which brings the Orb into existence; after that the Orb itself can't be dispelled. Once it is flying, it's not dependant on magic anymore.

[Psyren]

Okay. But with an instantaneous spell like an Orb, once the magic part has finished there is nothing to dispel. When you counter it like that, you are "dispelling" the magic which brings the Orb into existence; after that the Orb itself can't be dispelled. Once it is flying, it's not dependant on magic anymore.

Hey, I picked that nit first dammit! :smallmad::smallmad::smallmad:
Acknowledge my superiority! We're way too into this argument

[faceroll]

Relevant rules:
(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

From:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

[Yuki Akuma]

Dear lord, I was being silly!

Grow a sense of humour! :smallmad:

[KillianHawkeye]

Dear lord, I was being silly!

Grow a sense of humour! :smallmad:

I'm sorry for not being Internet-psychic. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

I'm sorry for not being Internet-psychic. :smallamused:

You need e-telepathic abilities to interpret a winking smilie now? :smallconfused:
Okay I'm done with this

[KillianHawkeye]

Winking doesn't always mean it's a joke. He could have been flirting. :smallannoyed::smallwink: