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quiet1mi
2011-01-05, 10:31 AM
Lately I have been co-gming my friends game and we noticed, despite the time he put into his encounters to make them challenging, they were not... We concluded that my level 13 beguiler was to blame.

A typical encounter went like this:
* I haste the Party, I Slow the enemy, I ready an action to activate Benign Transposition from my wand.

If there was a tough bad guy (who had really high wills save, protection from alignment) with a high ac and a large reserve of hitpoints, I would lesser shadow conjuration some ravens and have them: flank and aid another. The hasted Fighter with an +4-12 to hit kinda brought down anything with hitpoints... tough bad guys also had the habit of being isolated due to a legion of sentinels being centered right above them.

Mindless undead, no matter how many were just defeated with a silent image of a wall... Non-mindless hordes were brought down with variations of whelm and legion of sentinels.

Enemy Casters were brought down with a feeblemind, readied dispel magic or a silence.

Animals (who typically have high saves with a large amount of HD) were brought down with ray of stupidity...

All in all I was a support character, I could not finish the encounter by myself... However The rest of the party could. Unfortunately, tensions of a difficult encounter were drained when the party was hasted, the fighter has greater invisibility and silence centered on him, and the enemy was split up, their support was neutralized with silence, feeblemind, legion of sentinels. The same tricks did not work on me thanks to being undetectable and taking that reserve feat that lets you short range teleport.

The GM tried the whole detection thing but unfortunately, with the aid of magic items and darkstalker, made myself undetectable. Even Truesight could not stop me as I just hid in plain sight with improved diversion. With magic items my hide and move silently were in the +30-40 range making it nigh impossible for anything to beat my roll without being specialized in detecting people.

Both my Gm and I banged our collective heads against the wall to figure out how to handle a party with a powerful support character.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-05, 10:36 AM
If it takes a detection-specialised character to counter your character, then use some. Also, blindsight should work against you just fine.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-05, 10:45 AM
Volume. Add difficulty to the encounters by adding additional opponents.

Now, this doesn't solve everything, but it's one possible technique. Ray of Stupidity is awesome, but single target, and even with slow/haste, volume can make a fight more difficult.

Greenish
2011-01-05, 10:59 AM
Also, blindsight should work against you just fine.It doesn't. Darkstalker.

However, Mindsight would work. Toss in something with long-range telepathy.

Choco
2011-01-05, 11:10 AM
Wouldn't Tremorsense work too, as long as everyone is on the ground anyway? You would still have concealment, but the enemy would be aware of exactly where you are. Mix that with some AoE's, and have fun.

Greenish
2011-01-05, 11:12 AM
Wouldn't Tremorsense work too, as long as everyone is on the ground anyway?No, that's what Darkstalker is for.

It's a feat from LoM that allows you to hide from blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense.

Choco
2011-01-05, 11:17 AM
Well in that case, Detect Magic. Yes, the cantrip. YOU may be hidden in almost every way imaginable, but your items still light up like a Christmas tree.

Gullintanni
2011-01-05, 11:20 AM
Well in that case, Detect Magic. Yes, the cantrip. YOU may be hidden in almost every way imaginable, but your items still light up like a Christmas tree.

I'm not sure Detect Magic would let you pinpoint your target...would Arcane Sight work?

Choco
2011-01-05, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure Detect Magic would let you pinpoint your target...would Arcane Sight work?

I would say all those magic items clustered together are like a "HEY, I'M HERE!" beacon, though he would still have total concealment. That goes back to what I said earlier though, once you got a general idea of where he is, just nuke the whole area with various AoE's, INCLUDING Black Tentacles :smallamused:

Diarmuid
2011-01-05, 11:28 AM
It also sounds like you're going through a large amount of your resources in each fight. Are you guys able to rest between every encounter?

I find that's the most common problem with games where people find they are mowing through encounters. If you can alpha strike and deplete all of your replenishable resources (HP, Spells, x/day abilities, etc) then yes you're going to mow through things intended to be difficult.

Forced rationing of resources tends to make for much more interesting encounters. Adding in terrain modifiers, traps, and other encounter changing effects other than simply adding more baddies can change dynamics greatly as well.

Also animals, mindless undead, etc by nature are not very tactical. Intelligent enemies should be using countering tactics rather than simply grouping up for your AE's.

Choco
2011-01-05, 11:31 AM
It also sounds like you're going through a large amount of your resources in each fight. Are you guys able to rest between every encounter?

I find that's the most common problem with games where people find they are mowing through encounters. If you can alpha strike and deplete all of your replenishable resources (HP, Spells, x/day abilities, etc) then yes you're going to mow through things intended to be difficult.

Forced rationing of resources tends to make for much more interesting encounters. Adding in terrain modifiers, traps, and other encounter changing effects other than simply adding more baddies can change dynamics greatly as well.

+1 to that too. If the enemies can keep you guys from sleeping for 3 days straight and attack you every 5 hours, eventually the "problem spells" will either be depleted, or be rationed for emergencies only.

Gullintanni
2011-01-05, 11:35 AM
+1 to that too. If the enemies can keep you guys from sleeping for 3 days straight and attack you every 5 hours, eventually the "problem spells" will either be depleted, or be rationed for emergencies only.

This is where I would go. Keep pressure up, strike with constructs, undead etc. and be tactical with your spellcasters. Controlling action economy is the real threat in combat. If the beguiler has to ready counterspells every round, then he won't be buffing/debuffing, so keep the spell-caster threat ever present.

Give casters swift/quick/immediate action spells. Readied counterspells or not, you can't counter two spells per round.

Diarmuid
2011-01-05, 11:37 AM
Exactly, if you've got rounds to throw around haste/slow/wall/summons, what the heck is the enemy doing that whole time?

gbprime
2011-01-05, 11:49 AM
About the easiest thing the DM can do is to break out the dispel magics at that point. Even if they don't hit you the support caster, they can certainly wreak havoc with the party members they can detect by knocking down buffs and shutting off magic items for the duration of the fight.

A mid level warlock or two works fine for this, using things like See the Unseen and Voracious Dispelling.

For higher level shutdowns, there's things like forcecage, damaging cloud spells, and just plain old shunting the bad guys ethereal for a while to let your buffs run down.

Callista
2011-01-05, 11:56 AM
Well, in a world with powerful magic, it's not realistic if the enemy doesn't have powerful magic of their own. So any enemy who knows about you is going to have a couple of Haste spells prepared specifically to counterspell your Haste and Slow (or just go for the Dispel method). Or else they'll be Silencing you and forcing you to use up higher-level spell slots, attempting to grapple, stealing your spell components, etc.

Does the other DM post around here? Picking up some anti-spellcaster strategies is vital when you're fighting a spellcaster; and since your party has a spellcaster, any enemy your DM is playing smart (or even semi-smart) will know enough to plan to counter spellcasters. Minor encounters with random bandits or wild animals, no; but smart opponents--definitely. And you're high-level enough that you should be attracting powerful enemies by now.

(Re. skeletons and a Silent Image wall: They are smart enough to attempt to go around it, but if the wall is impassable and they have been ordered to attack, they will attempt to bash through it or climb it, breaking the illusion.)

Talk to the beguiler as well. If the character is really powerful compared to the rest of the party, maybe something can be done to offset the oversight in planning that led to the imbalance. For example, adding a template would give him a LA and put his spellcasting behind the party level; or he could start crafting some items and handing them out to the party. But look at the other characters, too: Can something be done to give them a higher power level? If so, then you can let the beguiler stay at this power level and just bring the others up to match him. Don't do anything to nerf the PC unless the player agrees, though. Find a compromise. You don't want to ruin his fun just because the party didn't plan their characters together.

mucat
2011-01-05, 01:22 PM
Of course, your DM will want more than one ace in the hole; it would be boring to make the encounters challenging by making them all identically engineered to counter your beguiler.

So the idea of ramping up the numbers is a good one for some encounters. Dispel and its more powerful cousins (up to and including anti-magic zones) will help with others. Simply making the enemies flat-out more powerful, so your characters will need every edge the beguiler can give, is a third one.

You mentioned that your beguiler can usually shut down enemy spellcasters in a round or two. So another possibility is for the DM to include a "sacrificial" spellcaster or two, who he knows will end up feebleminded, silenced, etc...but while the beguiler is busy doing that, the other enemies are fighting your party without interference. The DM should make these spellcasters powerful enough that the beguiler can't afford not to shut them down, but assume that he will succeed, and plan the encounter around what the rest of the enemies will be doing while the casters keep the beguiler busy.

Another possibility is to give the enemies powerful support casters of their own. Here the idea isn't just for the casters to keep the beguiler busy, but to match him trick for trick. The bad guys get buffed as strongly as the party, engage in battlefield control, throw their own Silence, Feeblemind, and illusion spells. Here, if one side manages to ambush the other, a huge advantage goes to the side who knew the fight was coming (and thus had their short-term buffs already in place, and a chance to preemptively strike the enemy spellcasters.) So a lot of the challenge will be in endeavoring to be the side that gets the jump on the others.

Merellis
2011-01-05, 01:29 PM
Make an enemy Beguiler and watch the hilarity as the party sees just how horrifying it is to be on the other side.

nedz
2011-01-05, 03:05 PM
Another idea:

Kobalds

Lots of lowish level sorcerors.
Keep them theamatic though - with identical spell lists - or it will be a nightmare to run.

Add in some battle field traps to.

Give them all debuffs and dispel perhaps ?

Did I mention traps ?

Give them all magic missile instead ? :smallbiggrin:

I had a great time recently with lots of Half Dragon/Mink/Sorceror/Enlighted Fist mooks, backed up with just one high level Sorceror and a Favoured Soul.

The party took two attempts, and each combat lasted ~30 rounds:smallbiggrin:
Mind you the single sorceror had done for them a few times, in previous encounters, all by himself, an unintended recurring villian.

quiet1mi
2011-01-05, 11:06 PM
Detect Magic does not work thanks to the level 1 spell "Magic Aura". It removes the magical auras on my items.

We already tried another “beguiler” that was more powerful as an opponent. Instead of a beguiler it was a "gnomekiller" Shadowcraft mage, he had more tricks than me, and he was a higher level. We managed to fight him to a draw thanks to him believing that the druid in the group was my orange tabby cat familiar. To avoid the legion of sentinels he was blinking from place to place while I was dimensional jaunting. Both of our spell slots were being taken up by dispelling those sentinels or illusions of them. The fight was really cool, even for everyone else because the fight mirrored the Sasuke and Itachi fight. Only when it looked like all hope was lost, my "familiar" casted hypothermia for terrible terrible damage. Throught the entire fight, things were tense.

Here is my character sheet if that helps:
Anon Amos
Beguiler
Grey Elf
Beguiler 13

Hp: 48
Initiative:
Speed: 30 feet (Dark: 40 feet)

06 Strength
18 Dexterity
10 Constitution
23 Intelligence
10 Wisdom
08 Charisma

+6/+1 Base Attack Bonus
+4 Fortitude Save
+8 Reflex Save
+8 Will Save

Feats:
Improved Diversion
Armored Mage
Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Silent Spell
Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Dark Stalker
Still Spell
Dimensional Jaunt

Skill Points: 192
Bluff,Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcane), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spell Craft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

Stealth: (Dark Anon)
46 Hide
42 Move Silently
Perception:
02 Spot
18 LIsten
05 Sense Motive

Senses:
Superior Low Light Vision
Dark Vision 60 feet
Blind Sight 30 feet

Full Skills:
15 Bluff
22 Disable Device
38 Hide
18 Listen
36 Move Silently
22 Search
15 Use Magic Device (+4 Scroll)

Half-Skills:
13 Concentration
11 Diplomacy
07 Gather Information
15 Forgery
14 Spell Craft
15 Sleight of Hand*

Synergy Skills:
11 Decipher Script
11 Knowledge (Arcane)
05 Sense Motive
10 Tumble*

Class Features:
Armored Mage
Trapfinding
Cloaked Casting (+1DC, +2 v. SR)
Surprise Casting (Move Action)
Advance Learning (1st) Mystic Aura
Advance Learning (3rd) Ray of Stupidity
Advance Learning (5th) Shadow Conjuration, Lesser

Skill Tricks:
2nd: False Theurgy
4th: Social Recovery
6th: Group Fake-Out
8th: Timely Misdirection
10th: Swift Concentration

Race/Template:
Hide in Plain Sight
Cold Resistance 10

Items:
04000 +2 Headband of Intelligence
35050 Elven Chain: Shadow, Improved. Silent Improved, Death ward
00900 Hand of the Mage
02500 Tunic of Steady Casting
00800 Armband of elusive action
05000 Belt of Hidden Pouches
10800 Continuous, Collar of Umbral Metamorph
02200 Ring of feather fall
04000 Ring of Counter spells
02000 Handy Haversack
02500 Bag of Holding I
07250 Bottle of Air
06000 Gwaeron's Boots
09000 Blindfold of True Darkness
03300 Adamantine Dagger
02150 Mitherail Shield, Deathward
Help Tools:
00820 Eternal Wand (Benign Transposition)
00750 Wand of lesser Vigor
00750 Wand of lesser Vigor

Basic Items: 2000 Left
000 Bedroll
000 Flint and Steel
000 Hempen Rope (50ft)
000 Sunrods (2)
000 Trail Rations (10 Days)
000 Waterskin


Life Sense, Mind Sight, Joy Sight, and a really high spot and listen check are the only ways I know that I could be detected. There are only so many opponents that we can face with access to those.

More enemy mages with access to dispel magic, or hasted sword swingers to catch up sounds good. I thought about it some more and came up for why we win fights. The Action economy! If there were 3 enemy mages assigned to the beguiler, the enemy would have one mage to buff, one mage to debuff, and one mage to dispel my buffs. If I silence one (and only one because they are far away from each other) then another one dispel magics it. The only thing to take into account is feeblmind. It is a fairly high level spell that can't be spammed unnecessarily. Would 3 level 8 Sorcerers or level 7 Wizards do it?

Merellis
2011-01-05, 11:26 PM
6 strength...

Use Strength Poison?

faceroll
2011-01-06, 12:28 AM
Sudden metmagic feats, evocations, potions of buffing, non-associated caster levels and cramped hallways are very optimal for NPCs. A giant evoker with potions sounds like a joke for a PC, but for an NPC, it can murderrape a party, especially with minions.

In a cramped hallway, 3 level 5 blasters with sudden maximized fireballs (or acid or whatever) will do 45 points of damage to everyone in the party if they make all their saves.

Legion of sentinels shouldn't be that great, as all your NPCs (and characters for that matter) should have max ranks in tumble and/or a ToB type to allow them to get through threatened areas (white raven tactics comes to mind).

I think a big issue is your "co-DMing". The Beguiler is basically canned Batman, and Batman is only powerful if you know your enemies' tricks. You're kind of cheating.

The only spell you've got that can affect intelligent undead, I believe, other than legion of sentinels, will be slow, and undead have great will saves. Vampire caster giants should clean house, and for a low CR, too.

Runestar
2011-01-06, 01:52 AM
Congratulations - you have just discovered the wonders of battlefield control and how they make wizards "GOD". :smallamused:

Kurald Galain
2011-01-06, 05:41 AM
How about mindless undead accompanied by a necromancer that orders them to walk through that illusory wall?

Also, dispel. Lots of it.

LordBlades
2011-01-06, 06:25 AM
In general, there are 2 ways of dealing with Battlefield control:

-being immune to it (at will teleport vs forcecage, true sight vs. illusions, immunity to poison vs cloudkill, etc)

-employ some battlefield control of your own. Depending on what the rest of the party is playing, this might force the beguiler to go on the defensive in order to get his companions out of the tight spot, netting several rounds in which he's not casting offensive spells.

JeminiZero
2011-01-06, 06:53 AM
Life Sense, Mind Sight, Joy Sight, and a really high spot and listen check are the only ways I know that I could be detected. There are only so many opponents that we can face with access to those.

There's also Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm), which at level 3, is handily available to everyone who is willing to burn a litle gold on Psionic Tattoos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm).

quiet1mi
2011-01-06, 09:30 AM
My co-Gming is just limited to keeping the machine going by helping keep track of initiative, looking up spell effects, stuff like that. I am actually not privy to any information that my character does not find out on his own. I attribute my ability to predict things to countless hours surfing Tv Tropes.

It would have to be multiple necromancers as a single one could be knocked out of the fight too easily... spellcasters also have a tough time getting ranks in tumble.

Being immune helps but is not the complete answer. You still have to deal with legion of sentinels, slow and shadow conjuration: summon monster III aiding another.

My character has a habit of being 20 to 30 feet away from the party for that exact reason. I suppose it would make an interesting encounter to be constantly bombarded by fireballs to keep the beguiler away from the encounter and deny him short range spells. I will mention it to my the GM. As for strength poison, the delivery would be difficult...

Touch sight sounds like a reasonable substitute for short range detection. I could see psionic tattoos being used by some of the bad guys.

Ernir
2011-01-06, 10:07 AM
40-something HP at ECL 13? Con 10? +4 Fort?

How on earth do you not get splatted by AoE effects? Being undetectable and untargetable is one thing, but never ending up in a spell area? :smallconfused:

peacenlove
2011-01-06, 10:22 AM
Beguiler 13

Hp: 48

+4 Fortitude Save
+8 Reflex Save

Psion/wilder with touch sight and some decent AoE blasting powers, or a shadowcaster with greater life fades / greater flesh fails [Strength damage is an autokill for your character] (and undispellable buffs to boot) will hurt you a lot.
Also far sight mystery to pinpoint you with a quickened line of shadows [insert fort or reflex save medium/long range mystery] will challenge you somewhat.
Wizard / Mindbender with Mindsight and glitterdust will help the enemy creatures to pinpoint you much easier (-40 to hide).
Heck any AoE direct damage spell/mystery/power is a serious threat to your character.
In fact i would advise you to get a +6 constitution item as soon as possible. While your character is well built offensively his low hit points are dangerous to those who can really challenge you.

quiet1mi
2011-01-06, 10:49 AM
40-something HP at ECL 13? Con 10? +4 Fort?

How on earth do you not get splatted by AoE effects? Being undetectable and untargetable is one thing, but never ending up in a spell area? :smallconfused:

Being [far] away from the party while being nigh-undetectable, typically on the other side of the map. Dimensional Jaunt is a surprisingly huge boon as it allows me to teleport, Spider climb keeps allows me to be anywhere on a battlefield. Swift Ethereal also helps with avoiding things. Otherwise I use a combination of displacement, and greater mirror image. (1 in 8 to hit the right target, 1 in 2 to hit the target)

The ~40 hp keeps me on edge and on alert to everything someone with more Hp would miss. But +6 amulet of constitution sounds like a good thing to pick up in the future as it will double my HP.

Touchsight, Mindsight can pinpoint me, Life sense can “find” me… is there anything that I am missing? Glitterdust, IIRC does not actually negate invisibility just provides a hide penalty equal to the bonus you would get for standing still while invisible. I still have the +31 to hide to deal with if I remain stationary, and +11 if I move. Granted a +11 is much more manageable then a +71 or +51 to hide.

I can definitely see an encounter with the above as the BBEG(Gm) with reports of powerful search and destroy teams being killed off and “impenetrable” fortress getting blown up may include a mercenary to observe, report and finally confront the beguiler.

So to re-cap things, we have a trio of mages to buff, debuff and dispel and a mindsight wizard, touch sight individual, or a shadowcaster specifically looking for the beguiler.

Skorj
2011-01-06, 11:24 AM
It sounds like you're using stealth and choosing your range to gain a big advantage, which is completely legitimate, and counterable by normal, real-world tactics. Also note that a party with a good support caster should blow through mooks without a risk of defeat - the mook encounters are only there to deplete resources.

Your opponents know that you're there, because someone unaccounted for is casting spells. There are many tricks for hiding in a high-magic world, from your approach to the many polymorph-related ones. Level-appropriate intelligent enemies should have a plan for that. If the party is the only side with tactics and magic use, of course it will be easy, but there are plenty of options.

If the enemy chooses the location of the fight, he should be able to hit everywhere you might be hiding with AE effects (not limited to cast spells).
If you are in any way detectable when casting a spell (are you silent? hidden from psionics? detect magic running while you're casting?), then a scattering of well-spread low level mooks acting as detectors will reveal your square, or close to it (and this would be a common tactic in any high-magic world).
When is the last time you were ambushed by an opponent with good divinition?
Are your pure-melee opponents appropriate for fighting a party with good buffs (lots of HP, tactically interesting abailities, buffs of their own)? Or are you going by the CR system?
Do you have challenges that last a long time? That are larger than your party in scale? Defended a town againt waves of invaders yet?
And of course there are always magic-immune (or nearly so) opponents, though using those frequently gets stale.

As long as your enemies also live in a high-magic world, and you're not getting away with one encounter per day, it shouldn't be that hard to present a challenge.

Waker
2011-01-06, 12:06 PM
Any number of spells/abilities could be used smartly to lock you down or at least limit you. See Invisible, Arcane Sight, True Seeing, Anti-Magic Field, Dimensional Anchor, AoE Dispel Magic are just a few spells that could be used to help counter it, but if you want a more exotic solution, there are ways. How about tossing a Mageripper Swarm (MM 4), it automatically detects all magic within 30ft and comes with a dispelling touch and can steal spells. Plus it's a low CR 6, so using one or two wouldn't horrible unbalance combat. But of course, if you think that's too weak, you could always try a Balhannoth (MM4), it can see magic 120ft away, comes with an anti-magic grapple, aura of Dimensional Anchor and all for the price of CR 10.

And though it's been said in many different words, remember that as the players get higher level, the enemies must either get stronger or smarter, often both. Let the enemies utilize magic items/potions/scrolls, use hit and run tactics, wear the party down with fodder and sometimes just be plain mean. How often does the party check for traps when looting corpses? "Hey guys, I found a Scroll of Explosive Runes....."

quiet1mi
2011-01-06, 04:30 PM
Hide in plain sight defeats true sight, see invisible... dimensional anchor requires a ranged touch attack... in an Anti-magic field enemies would still have to deal with the beguiler's hide check, granted it would only be +20 instead of +31. With Improved Diversion, the beguiler can re-hide itself as a move action.

Mageripper Swarm are good, but can it be lured or overwhelmed by major image (Illusions being just magic) or will it still see the beguiler as a stronger source of magic? For "seeing" magic, would removing the magical auras off of items affect that? Could it also become confused with rocks with magic aura cast on them?

Balhannoths seem interesting, I have not read the stat block but I will mention it to my GM.

I am not sure what is meant by "detectable through psionics" but is that touchsense?

peacenlove
2011-01-06, 06:48 PM
How far away from the party are you? Because a control winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlwinds.htm) effect would cause a tornado effect in 520 feet away forcing you (and your party) to make fortitude saves or take some damage. Also even buildings (and at DM's discretion some magical walls also) are uprooted and destroyed from this spell, providing you no cover from the wind, and it disperses fogs immediately. Only changing plane helps, and with transdimensional spell not even that.
This spell is also castable as a mystery by the shadowcaster (look under control air or water).
Finally you can't hide while blown away (no shadows or hiding material in the air, no ability to move) so you are easy prey for any ray attacks or targeted spells.

Waker
2011-01-06, 10:24 PM
How do you have Hide in Plain Sight?
Anyways, other options include the use of Occult Slayers, if they happen to have Pierce Magical Concealment (CA) then they can completely ignore invisibility and mirror image. Not to mention that the constant Mind Blank they have protects them against many of the beguiler's spells. Also spell turning is fun.

true_shinken
2011-01-06, 11:15 PM
How are you buffing the party with haste if you stay away from them the whole time? :smallconfused:

Mojo_Rat
2011-01-06, 11:45 PM
As a minor Nit Pick (although this may be moot since its shadow conjuration and not summon monster)

but you cant Summon Ravens and Order them to flank or Aid other. You can at best summon them and /hope/ they flank and theres no way to get them to aid another.

Because its shadow conjuration though, im not sure. But i assume their behaviour still follows the summon monster behaviour other than being not fully real.

Urpriest
2011-01-06, 11:57 PM
As a minor Nit Pick (although this may be moot since its shadow conjuration and not summon monster)

but you cant Summon Ravens and Order them to flank or Aid other. You can at best summon them and /hope/ they flank and theres no way to get them to aid another.

Because its shadow conjuration though, im not sure. But i assume their behaviour still follows the summon monster behaviour other than being not fully real.

If it's mimicking Summon Monster then they're Fiendish Ravens, and thus have Int 3, speak a language, and can take orders.

Anyway, a fight in a vehicle (or even most typical dungeons) would keep you close enough to the party for everybody to be bathed in an AOE or seven.

Mojo_Rat
2011-01-07, 12:10 AM
Meh Your Right, ive been playing Pathfinder and forgot about that Change. My Bad.

woodenbandman
2011-01-07, 02:18 AM
I would lesser shadow conjuration some ravens and have them: flank and aid another.

I'm not saying that isn't technically allowed by the spell, I'm just saying that I would definitely not allow that.

Runestar
2011-01-07, 05:42 AM
Exactly, if you've got rounds to throw around haste/slow/wall/summons, what the heck is the enemy doing that whole time?

The same thing they are doing when facing a god wizard - standing there disabled from some BC spell. It's not that they don't want to act, it's that they can't. Their actions have been thoroughly negated and they are pretty much just inanimate sacks of hp for the fighter to rip through. :smallamused:

Consider this excerpt.

Another really funny party was Fighter, Wizard, Wizard, Nymph. Both of the wizards focused on control spells, with one favoring summons and the other favoring defensive stuff. Basically, this party was the exact opposite (even though the fighter in this party was one of the fighers in the other party) of the other. They simply did not so any damage, instead completely looking up the fight with stunning gaze, acid fog, wall of ________, trips, summoned elementals, etc. while slowly chipping the opponent away. Every combat took a long time to resolve, but usually it was a forgone conclusion early on. The opponents would get seperated and stalled while the fighter individually pounded them. For a powerful single opponent would be subjected to repeated save-or-abilities from behind barriers of spell created obstacles and the fighter. Probably the most "professional" party I'd ever been in, from the perspective that they always were able to solve every encounter they faced with a clear, efficient strategy that was often ad-libbed and always effective.

It also helped convinve me that the game is less fun with two wizards, because you really, really always have a solution to every problem as a standard action, even when both wizards are intentionally limiting their spell lists for thematic and balance concerns.

Constructs won't help much, they have poor will saves and glitterdust/grease pretty much shuts them down.

quiet1mi
2011-01-07, 12:29 PM
How are you buffing the party with haste if you stay away from them the whole time? :smallconfused:

Haste and Slow, even at close range, have a range of 55 feet at level 12-13.


How far away from the party are you? Because a control winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlwinds.htm) effect would cause a tornado effect in 520 feet away forcing you (and your party) to make fortitude saves or take some damage. Also even buildings (and at DM's discretion some magical walls also) are uprooted and destroyed from this spell, providing you no cover from the wind, and it disperses fogs immediately. Only changing plane helps, and with transdimensional spell not even that.

This spell is also castable as a mystery by the shadowcaster (look under control air or water).
Finally you can't hide while blown away (no shadows or hiding material in the air, no ability to move) so you are easy prey for any ray attacks or targeted spells.

Hmmm, that is an interesting solution, I could definitely see at least one encounter with someone controlling winds.


How do you have Hide in Plain Sight?
Anyways, other options include the use of Occult Slayers, if they happen to have Pierce Magical Concealment (CA) then they can completely ignore invisibility and mirror image. Not to mention that the constant Mind Blank they have protects them against many of the beguiler's spells. Also spell turning is fun.

The Collar of Umbral Metamorph from the Tome of Magic. The beguiler bought the continuous version.
The Occult Slayers are interesting, but even with continuous mindblank, they are not immune to things like obscuring mist, solid fog, silence (sneaking away from them), spider climbing out of reach, glitterdust, and legion of sentinels... However being an occult slayer, does not stop him from investing money into a touchsight tatoo or from buffs being place on him...

However with support, of the aforementioned 3 mages (buff, debuff, dispel) and that could turn out to be the difficult encounter that the party needs...


Recapping again: We have 3 support mages (buff, debuff, and dispel), a buffed Occult Slayer, control winds to keep the beguiler from getting too comfortable, and the pinpoints of mindsight and touchsight. I can believably say that kill teams in the campaign could be fitted with that kind of combination to better combat changing circumstance. Another thing is to ignore CR and make the encounters more than difficult so the beguiler is just making things even rather than making things too easy.

Gullintanni
2011-01-07, 01:11 PM
As a minor Nit Pick (although this may be moot since its shadow conjuration and not summon monster)

but you cant Summon Ravens and Order them to flank or Aid other. You can at best summon them and /hope/ they flank and theres no way to get them to aid another.

Because its shadow conjuration though, im not sure. But i assume their behaviour still follows the summon monster behaviour other than being not fully real.

Ravens are tiny creatures with no reach. If I recall correctly, this means that they have to move into a creatures square to threaten it. I take this to mean that they can't flank at all.

Saph
2011-01-07, 01:17 PM
Recapping again: We have 3 support mages (buff, debuff, and dispel), a buffed Occult Slayer, control winds to keep the beguiler from getting too comfortable, and the pinpoints of mindsight and touchsight. I can believably say that kill teams in the campaign could be fitted with that kind of combination to better combat changing circumstance. Another thing is to ignore CR and make the encounters more than difficult so the beguiler is just making things even rather than making things too easy.

Other approaches:

- Daylight, natural or magical, shuts down the HiPS from Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.
- Casters/monsters with SLAs using readied actions.
- Encounters in enclosed spaces. It's pretty difficult to stay out of range of AoEs when you're fighting in 20' to 30' rooms and being more than 40' away from the bad guys puts you out of LoE.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 03:12 PM
Haste and Slow, even at close range, have a range of 55 feet at level 12-13.
Well, lots of spells have areas of effect greater than that, specially with metamagic.

Waker
2011-01-07, 03:48 PM
You could focus on the low Fortitude and Reflex saves of the Beguiler. If the enemy can get you in their sights for even a round, Blindness can take you out for a bit. Force effects are also fun, they don't tend to care if you are invisible or ethereal. Bigby's Interposing Hand (and later incarnations) can't be fooled by illusions.
Then of course there are any number of creatures that dwell on the Ethereal Plane that could be used to guard a location. Swarm creatures are largely immune to mind-affecting (unless intelligent), automatically attack creature in reach and have the Distraction ability (I mentioned the Mageripper Swarm earlier partly for this reason).
Traps can often bypass many of the defenses that a party prepares. The traps may be automated or controlled, and include fun things like collapsing the roof, opening a pit int he ground, flood a room with poisonous gas (or water). Obviously in a very large room, this effect is less useful, but in a smaller room or hallway, the effects can be devastating. And you can add further to those traps, one time a character of mine was dropped into a pit trap that contained a water trap filled with blood-sucking jellyfish.

I also forgot about creatures using gaze attacks and similar powers. While the range may be slightly limited (Medusa has a gaze of 30ft), Piercing Gaze can increase this to 60ft. It's Fortitude based and doesn't require any active effort. If she happens to look at you (even if she doesn't see you or if you happen to be ethereal) you could be affected. This can of course be applied to other creatures like the basilisk.

quiet1mi
2011-01-08, 09:49 PM
Small rooms make for really boring fights as no one can really maneuver, once in a while works though to see what happens when everyone has no maneuverability.


I also forgot about creatures using gaze attacks and similar powers.
I am no doctor but I believe that for gaze attacks to work they have to focus on their target or special requirements have to be met such as meeting some one's gaze. Otherwise they would spin in a circle as their move action and hit everyone.


Force effects are also fun, they don't tend to care if you are invisible or ethereal. Most force effects need to target to work. If you cannot be seen, then you are not a viable target of the spell.


Swarm creatures are largely immune to mind-affecting (unless intelligent)Swarms that are immune to mind-affecting are usually mindless and can be easily fooled by major image (it has heat, and vibration as well as sight and sound) as they cannot challenge the illusion without an intelligence. Sorry to say that they are either mindless and hit by illusions with no save or have an intelligence and are hit with illusions with a save (when interacted with) and enchantments.


Traps can often bypass many of the defenses that a party prepares. The traps may be automated or controlled, and include fun things like collapsing the roof, opening a pit int he ground, flood a room with poisonous gas (or water).
Unless the trap was the encounter, those would also hinder the opposing forces. Unfortunately prepared parties have ring of feather fall and bottles of air.


You could focus on the low Fortitude and Reflex saves of the Beguiler. If the enemy can get you in their sights for even a round, Blindness can take you out for a bit. Blindness does affect this beguiler with a blindfold of True Darkness. Getting caught in peoples' sight is rare event.

faceroll
2011-01-08, 10:18 PM
Intelligent swarms of vermin are still immune to mind effecting, due to type, and most mind-affecting stuff is single target, which swarms are immune to.

Blinding effects would be great on the rest of the party, since they seem to be what keeps the beguiler safe. Metmagic'd glitterdust, like shape spell, quadruples the area that glitterdust covers.

As mentioned, Umbral Collar HiPS can be negated with daylight.

I would abuse CR rules and non-associated caster levels. Also, levels of ToB classes on a high HD monster, like a boneclaw, dragon, or giant gives it knowledge of maneuvers about equal to what the party would have and only increases CR by 1.

Summoned monsters don't count towards increases in CR. A beguiler/dread necro/warmage using versatile spell caster, heighten spell, earth spell, easy metamagic, and sanctum spell can cast 5th level spells out of 2 first level slots. A room full of level 6 warmages could quickly fill a room with Bone Devils and Babaus. The bone devils get wall of ice at will, which means they can easily choke up any environment with dozens of walls while they fly around, invisible, fearing anything they come across while they flank it. The Babaus hunt down the beguiler.

That would cause quite a headache, and all those devils & demons don't do anything to increase CR. Level 6 NPCs don't count much towards CR, especially if they are kobolds. They're what, CR 4? You could have a lot of them, and they could all have the dark template+potions of shrink person. That would make them hard to find, and annoying.

Then you could of course have a souped up lore drake spellhoarding mature adult black dragon (casts as 7th level wizard, can add ANY spell to his spells known) as the actual boss that stays out of range and shreds the tank with blood wind. He can easily make concentration checks to ignore your spectral swordsmen, and scintillating scales means even if they do attack, they only hit on a 20. And being a dragon with a zillion HP, well, who cares.

A couple psions with dispel can dispel quite high, and combined with dominate, could easily mind control much of your party before you guys even realize you're in combat.

Waker
2011-01-09, 02:31 AM
Nope, Gaze attacks require no action on the part of the monster. Except in the case of certain monsters (Vampires) simply looking at the monster can result in you getting hit. You can look at the creatures body, but even then you still run a 50% of accidentally meeting their gaze. Read up on the Gaze ability at the back of MM. If you wanna soup up the gaze attacks, there are some fun options in Savage Species, plus the Ability Focus feat at the back of MM. As a specific example
NARROWED GAZE [MONSTROUS]
Your gaze attack has a limited field of effect.
Prerequisite: Int 13, gaze attack.
Benefit: You may choose to limit your gaze attack to an
active gaze. Doing so prevents you from accidentally affecting
friends with your gaze.
Normal: A gaze attack functions constantly on all those
within range, and it can also be used actively as an attack
action.

The traps that I mentioned could be adapted in other ways, I was just giving specific examples. You could also stick a pit trap in the most likely place a party member would charge (middle of the room) when trying to get to the enemy. Or have a dropping wall separate the party as they walk into a room. Tons of options, just get creative (cause I don't feel like listing the unimaginable amount of ways you could hate your players.)

Unless the trap was the encounter, those would also hinder the opposing forces. Unfortunately prepared parties have ring of feather fall and bottles of air.
It depends on the trap, but if they happen to be a construct or undead, poison gas or water don't really affect them. Not easy to pass around the bottle when you have a stone golem whacking you. I also remember an old pit trap that stuck a beholder at the bottom, thereby preventing any feather fall/fly shenanigans. Combining the effects of a trap and a monster can make for a far different fight, you just need to think about a bit.

Blindness does affect this beguiler with a blindfold of True Darkness. Getting caught in peoples' sight is rare event.
During combat, you could use any number of the approaches mentioned before (daylight, see invisible, blah blah) but used as an opening to an ambush it can really shine. Preferably you would want multi-target spells, but some fun Fort sv spells include: Cloudkill, Disintegrate, Enervation, Eyebite, Flesh to Stone, Ghoul Touch (Spectral Hand)... I could keep going, not to mention that I'm specifically only listing 6th and under spells. Of course any of these could be used on other members of your party.

Fizban
2011-01-09, 03:56 AM
Blindness does affect this beguiler with a blindfold of True Darkness. Getting caught in peoples' sight is rare event.
And if you're using the blindfold then you can't see anything past 30', so you're pinpointed well enough for carpet-bombing.

In fact, I have to wonder if you have any ways to detect hidden opponents yourself. You seem to be relying entirely on that Blindfold, maybe with True Seeing available from an ally? Darkstalker is a must-have feat in a wold with magic, so I would expect every sneak you meet to be packing it. Just as they can't detect you, you couldn't detect them with your spot and listen modifiers. And before you say area effects, you've got the same problems they do: what area? A group of say, Crossbow Sniper assassins would probably give your group a run for their money.

Waker
2011-01-09, 04:35 AM
Unless there was an update I'm not aware of, the Blindfold gives you Blindsight out to 60', not 30'.
I suppose I should have also added a comment about Incorporeal enemies earlier. The specific result of it is up to the DM, but many Incorporeal enemies would be completely invisible to you. All Ethereal as well. Being denied Dex and Armor bonus against even something weak like a Shadow is pretty harsh. So that could be something else to throw at the party.

quiet1mi
2011-01-09, 05:01 AM
And if you're using the blindfold then you can't see anything past 30', so you're pinpointed well enough for carpet-bombing.
The blindfold is to make up for the lack of a spot check, I still have dark vision thanks to the dark template given to me from the collar.


In fact, I have to wonder if you have any ways to detect hidden opponents yourself. You seem to be relying entirely on that Blindfold, maybe with True Seeing available from an ally? Darkstalker is a must-have feat in a wold with magic, so I would expect every sneak you meet to be packing it. Just as they can't detect you, you couldn't detect them with your spot and listen modifiers. And before you say area effects, you've got the same problems they do: what area? A group of say, Crossbow Sniper assassins would probably give your group a run for their money.
I use listen for my primary form of detection... I would have to agree that if fought my carbon copy duplicate, it would just end when the last trick went unanswered.

As mentioned earlier, the GM made a gnome killer 2-3 levels above the beguiler and the encounter went sort of like this. the gnomekiller would use would be summon horde of unseen servants and have them fan out. If the gnome killer has "see invisibility" up, the gnome killer can see where the servants did not go. To counter this counter, the beguiler with "see invisibility" would predict such a tactic and just be in a place where the servants could not reach in the first place (the ceiling) or readied an action to teleport up there. To counter that counter counter the gnomekiller would have a meta-magic trap (forgot the metamagic feat) on the ceiling. realizing that the unseen servants are easily countered by going onto the ceiling, he would avoid obvious ceiling counter as it must be a trap. The encounter becomes a game of battleship as the beguiler misleads his foe by setting off the trap with a shadow conjured creature... You can see how this can quickly get interesting, confusing and a resource drain.

Recapping again to avoid getting de-railed:
We have 3 support mages (buff, debuff, and dispel), a buffed Occult Slayer, control winds to keep the beguiler from getting too comfortable, and the pinpoints of mindsight and touchsight.

I can believably say that kill teams in the campaign could be fitted with that kind of combination to better combat changing circumstance. Another thing is to ignore CR and make the encounters more than difficult so the beguiler is just making things even rather than making things too easy.

Interesting Anti-Beguiler Tactics:

Daylight, natural or magical, shuts down the HiPS from Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Encounters in enclosed spaces. It's pretty difficult to stay out of range of AoEs when you're fighting in 20' to 30' rooms and being more than 40' away from the bad guys puts you out of LoE.

This could be set when the party has to assault/infiltrate into a prepared fortification. A prepared fortress would have taken pains to eliminate the shadows from the places where combat should take place.

Waker
2011-01-09, 05:16 AM
The blindfold is to make up for the lack of a spot check, I still have dark vision thanks to the dark template given to me from the collar.
Once again, unless there was an update to the item that I was not aware of, this doesn't make sense.

The wearer cannot use vision in any way while wearing the blindfold.
Snipped from A&EG. Some of the tactics mentioned is dependent on whether or not you always wear your blindfold or selectively wear it (like when something is getting a concealment bonus)

quiet1mi
2011-01-09, 06:18 PM
Alright, I think we are getting a little off topic... I will restate the OP topic:

The Party is functioning in combat beyond what they should be capable of because the party beguiler is a powerful support character.

So far the suggestions have been:
Stack the odds in the opponents favor
Create an environment that interrupts, delays the party such as a windstorm, a small room, a trapped room, etc... Another suggestion was to start the opposition is a superior position or just more powerful, and the beguiler has to even the scales by buffing, shifting the battlefield and debuffing.
Give the opposition support characters as well
Give the opposing force 3 support casters of about 2-3 lower levels to buff their forces, debuff the party, and dispel the beguilers spells. This way both sides have a force multiplier that is not easily taken out and this also forces the beguiler to be more active in his spells.
Distract the beguiler
Have a single enemy go only after the beguiler so he has to use resources protecting himself instead of buffing the party, debuffing the enemy or shifting the battlefield in the parties favor. Such an enemy would need either mindsight, life sense, or touchsight.

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 06:49 PM
Or you could use area spells. Or you could sneak on the Beguiler. Or you could use a dedicated counterspeller as an enemy.

quiet1mi
2011-01-09, 09:25 PM
Or you could use area spells. Or you could sneak on the Beguiler. Or you could use a dedicated counterspeller as an enemy.


The beguiler knows of area spells and tries to keep away from the party. Actually his favorite hiding spot is right above the enemy on the ceiling...

Sneak on the beguiler falls under distracting the beguiler. The more I am thinking about it, it is far easier to hide from someone then to find them. Sneaking on him would be tough when even his own party members rarely know where he his...

Dedicated "counterspeller" would fall under the "dispeller" of the support mage trio. I see dispel magic with caster level buffs being easier to use then the counterspell approach, given that slight of hand can hide your spellcasting.

true_shinken
2011-01-10, 08:47 AM
The beguiler knows of area spells and tries to keep away from the party. Actually his favorite hiding spot is right above the enemy on the ceiling...
But doesn't he need to be within 55ft to cast haste/slow? That's within rage of lots of area attacks.

quiet1mi
2011-01-10, 12:11 PM
I notice that there are a lot of misunderstandings of the size of the board. typically 6 squares per combatant, unless being cramped is an element of the fight, then 3.5 squares per combatant. This gives maneuvering room.

The problem with launching area attacks that ignore the bulk party to hit someone who may not even be there is that they might not be there. The second problem is a blast that size typically has collateral damage in the form of the opposition.

I am mainly looking for two things, how to keep the beguiler engaged in a fight (not slinging 2-3 spells then dimensional jaunting away from the fight) and how to present a challenge to a party that goes from having natural advantage to a massive advantage in combat.

While presenting mortal danger to the beguiler is one tactic, the Gm can kill the beguiler, that is not the issue, the unbalanced combat is.

mucco
2011-01-10, 01:23 PM
Well, level 13 means it's sort of okay to throw 15th level wizards ath the party, right?

Spells: Mind Blank. Quicken Sculpt Glitterdust to give you a -40 to Hide. Blink/Greater Blink and SR. Freedom of Movement (slows and such). Protection from Evil (dominations+summons). Waves of Exhaustion is likely to drop you without knowing you are there. Dimension Lock/Anchor. Alarm.

Action economy, as you said, is key. If the DM has twice the actions of the party, it will be hard no matter what - assuming they're actions taken by half competent NPCs. Warforged Juggernauts are fun for that, try to stop them.

There's many other things one can do, depending on your strategy. Flight can be countered with wind, walking can be signaled by a dusty floor or something like that.

quiet1mi
2011-01-10, 02:05 PM
Yes, 15th level wizards are fair game. At that point, the beguiler would act as an evener by dispelling, distracting, and debuffing.

The "gnome killer" was 14th level when we were 12th, it was a long fight between the beguiler and the wizard cutting off each others running space, finding the other, and other gambits. The only people in the fight were the beguiler, the druid, a noble we were protecting and "gnome killer"

I think the beguiler won that fight only because the gnome killer did not know about the druid being a druid. The druid was wildshaped into an orange tabby cat a lot and the wizard thought it was a familiar obtained from the obtain familiar feat. The fight was fought to a standstill until the dominated noble pulled out a poisoned knife, and stabbed the beguiler. It looked like he had won until the druid hit the defenseless wizard with hypothermia. Realizing that the familiar was a druid and he was worn down, he fled.

Hallack
2011-01-10, 02:19 PM
Dang, I'm not sure I see a problem. Sounds like a fun game to me.

Is the beguiler's contributions detracting from the fun of the other players?

Is it a must that the party has to be smacked around badly? If so, is that going to add to the fun?

As others have posted with ideas it is easy for DM to shut down a player characters abilities if he wants too. Plenty of ways can be found in previous posts.

I'm not saying don't try to make challenging (or even more challenging) encounters. Just be careful that you don't force the beguiler into doing nothing but countering/reacting to the BBEG casters by standing there Dispelling or Counterspelling.

Encounter distance and frequency sound to be likely the best way to go about balancing down the Beguiler from the OP. Of course, at this level he's got lots of Hastes, Slows, and others to to around so it may take quite a few encounters to bleed his spell resources down.