Dwarf or dwarves

[Gamerlord]

Had this question in my head for months,maybe even years. Which one is the right plural? Are both of them correct?

[HalfTangible]

Dwarves. We don't call multiple humans 'human'.

[hamishspence]

I think it was supposed to be "Dwarfs or dwarves".

GW uses Dwarfs.
D&D (and Tolkien) uses Dwarves.

Sometimes plurals of a word ending in "f" are "ves" (leaf, leaves)

but not always.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think he meant "dwarfs or dwarves."

I think generally both are correct. I know in the information in Age of Mythology it says that the "dwarves" spelling was Tolkien's invention, and basically it just stuck because Tolkien's followers kept repeating it. In the traditional myths and the famous fairy tale, "dwarfs" is the dominant spelling.

[Dr.Epic]

It's dwarves. I've never even heard the alternative as an option.

[shiram]

According to the internet (wikipedia) both forms are correct, dwarfs, dwarves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_plural

[hamishspence]

I think C.S. Lewis favoured Dwarfs as the spelling (from what I remember of the Narnia books).

[DeadManSleeping]

It's dwarves. I've never even heard the alternative as an option.

Indeed. The number of cases of "dwarves" being used positively dwarfs any other instances of the plural.

English is a silly language.

[Asta Kask]

I've heard that "dwarves" are the mythological creatures while "dwarfs" are people with dwarfism. I may be entirely wrong on this, of course.

[Roland St. Jude]

It's dwarves. I've never even heard the alternative as an option.
You are not familiar then with the classic Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs? :smallwink:

As said upthread, dwarfs was the historical mythological plural, while dwarves was a Tolkien invention. Tolkien's work was popular/influential enough that now both versions are generally regarded as correct.

P.S. I find it interesting that my spell check recognizes "dwarfs" and "Tolkien" as acceptable but "dwarves" as a misspelling

[Thufir]

It's dwarves. I've never even heard the alternative as an option.


Indeed. The number of cases of "dwarves" being used positively dwarfs any other instances of the plural.

English is a silly language.

Professor Sir Terry Pratchett would disagree with you.

[Prime32]

Apparently Tolkien was originally going to make the plural of dwarf "dwarrow".

[averagejoe]

I like dwarves better, because I don't feel like I have to pronounce that hard F -> S which is just awkward. But that's just me.

[Castaras]

You are not familiar then with the classic Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs? :smallwink:

I've always seen it spelt Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. :smalltongue:

Either. Whichever you feel like at the time. Maybe try Dwarfves if you're really not sure. You'd be incorrect, but you'd be doing both at once. That's what counts right? :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Two wrongs don't make a left, my dear Castaras...

[Castaras]

Two wrongs don't make a left, my dear Castaras...

But they do make a "Que?". :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

But they do make a "Que?". :smallbiggrin:

More like a queue. :smallwink:

[Moonshadow]

More like a queue. :smallwink:

Urist McUrist cancels Craft - Reason: Drinking.

[factotum]

Yes, "dwarves" and "dwarvish" were both Tolkien's inventions, but he had good reasons for them. Basically, plurals and other derivations of words change over the years due to usage, but this process happens more slowly with words that are less commonly used: so the plural of "knife" becomes "knives" because that word is used a lot, but the plural of "dwarf" remains "dwarfs" because it's a rarely-used word. Of course, in Tolkien's mythological world there are dwarfs all over the place, so he decided that the plural *would* be "dwarves" in a world like that. I guess this is the sort of thing you do when you're a professor of linguistics! :smallsmile:

Speaking personally I prefer to use "dwarfs" because it just sounds better to me, but YMMV.

[hamishspence]

I like dwarves- it goes well with elves.

"Elfs" just sounds odd- though "Dwarfs" admittedly isn't as odd-sounding.

[Katana_Geldar]

My favourite thing about dwarves is the collective noun for them: a shortage.

[Ravens_cry]

I like dwarves- it goes well with elves.

"Elfs" just sounds odd- though "Dwarfs" admittedly isn't as odd-sounding.
That's proably because there is small varieties of plants and animals we call "dwarf <insert critter here/>" Also dwarfs is one term for people who are much shorter then average, so you're half odds likely to have heard 'dwarfs' before. There is no elf varieties of creatures and/or humans, not outside of Shadowrun anyway.
Still, in fantasy, thanks to Papa Tolkien, dwarves and elves is standard.

[turkishproverb]

I think it was supposed to be "Dwarfs or dwarves".

GW uses Dwarfs.
D&D (and Tolkien) uses Dwarves.

Sometimes plurals of a word ending in "f" are "ves" (leaf, leaves)

but not always.

At one point, Tolkien used Dwarfs and told off his editor when they questioned him on it ("The Oxford English Dictionary Says..." "I WROTE the Oxford English Dictionary!")

[hamishspence]

That's proably because there is small varieties of plants and animals we call "dwarf <insert critter here/>"

Stars- as well- white dwarfs, red dwarfs, and our Sun is a yellow dwarf.

I think that "dwarves" might predate Tolkien in some cases though. Did the early English translations of the Brothers Grimm use Dwarfs or Dwarves?

[KenderWizard]

I would just like to say, I love this thread!

And I use "dwarves".

[AshDesert]

Dwarves. "fs" just sounds weird.

[WalkingTarget]

From a letter from Tolkien to Stanley Unwin in 1937:

"No reviewer (that I have seen), although all have carefully used the correct dwarfs tehmselves, has commented on the fact (which I only became conscious of through reviews) that I use throughout the 'incorrect' plural dwarves. I am afraid it is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist; but I shall have to go on with it. Perhaps my dwarf - since he and the Gnome [Tolkien eventually renamed them the Noldor] are only translations into approximate equivalents of creatures with different names and rather different functions in their own world - may be allowed a peculiar plural. The real 'historical' plural of dwarf (like teeth of tooth) is dwarrows, anyway; rather a nice word, but a bit too archaic. Still I rather wish I had used the word dwarrow."

and later from a letter to the editor of the Observer in 1938:

"And why dwarves? Grammar prescribes dwarfs; philology suggests that dwarrows would be the historical form. The real answer is that I knew no better. But dwarves goes well with elves; and, in any case, elf, gnome, goblin, dwarf are only approximate translations of the Old Elvish names for beings of not quite the same kinds and functions."

and another draft of a response letter to a fan written in 1954:

"Even the dwarfs are not really Germanic 'dwarfs' (Zwerge, dweorgas, dvergar), and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature."

------

So, Tolkien accepted that the "correct" English plural is "dwarfs", but for stylistic choices invented (as far as he was aware) "dwarves" - initially as a misspelling since he thought that it was correct.

Edit - as a personal anecdote: I remember an incident in a grade school spelling test where the word was "dwarfs" but, seeing as I was familiar with The Hobbit, I used "dwarves". I got marked down until I brought in a copy and showed the teacher. I was, like, 8 at the time.

[hamishspence]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(mythology)


An alternative plural dwarves has been recorded from the early 18th century and was in occasional use throughout the 19th century, especially in the context of Norse mythology.

So it's possible he independently invented it.

[monomer]

Google Books Ngrams Viewer to the rescue! (http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=dwarfs,dwarves&year_start=1700&year_end=2008&corpus=0&smoothing=3)

According to Google Books, Dwarfs has been the preferred spelling in published works since 1700.

Dwarves did not show up as an alternative spelling until the 1820's, and didn't really gain in popularity until the 1960's, thanks most likely to Tolkien.

[hamishspence]

I notice that books from 1808 onwards that do use "dwarves", are mostly quoting from the Edda.

And several of the 1850 ones, are grammar books that say:

"This is an error- dwarves and wharves are wrong- these two are exceptions to the general rule that "f" becomes "ves" when pluralized."

[The Big Dice]

I wanted to put some witty post about how a big thing dwarfs the group of dwarves, but I can't think of anything suitable...

And my Firefox dictionary recognises dwarfs, but not dwarves.

[Thufir]

Apparently Tolkien was originally going to make the plural of dwarf "dwarrow".

I thought it was 'dwerrow'.
And I realise there has since the quoted been a post with a Tolkien letter mentioning 'dwarrows', but I know I got dwerrow from somewhere.
In fact, I thought what I remembered was that dwarrow was an old word for dwarf, and dwerrow was the plural, this predating universal use of s to pluralise. Or something like that.

[WalkingTarget]

I thought it was 'dwerrow'.
And I realise there has since the quoted been a post with a Tolkien letter mentioning 'dwarrows', but I know I got dwerrow from somewhere.
In fact, I thought what I remembered was that dwarrow was an old word for dwarf, and dwerrow was the plural, this predating universal use of s to pluralise. Or something like that.

I poked around a bit more.

Appendix F of LotR: "It should be dwarrows (or dwerrows)..."

Tolkien considered both variations.

[hamishspence]

I wanted to put some witty post about how a big thing dwarfs the group of dwarves, but I can't think of anything suitable...

That might explain why "dwarfs" is much more common- since it can be that, not just the mythological guys.

Hence, even if "dwarfs" is far more common according to Google books- many of those occurences might not be referring to the beings of Norse mythology.

[Eldan]

Most likely not, in fact. I'd wager there's a lot of astronomy in there.

[Ravens_cry]

Most likely not, in fact. I'd wager there's a lot of astronomy in there.
Indeed yes. Red Dwarf wasn't named after a communist longbeard to be sure.
Not to mention botany, zoology, and even a little anthropology.

[super dark33]

and thats the advantage of a recent language-Hebrew {well not new, but one who get a kind of remade}. there are not enough words. so we call them "gamad". in plural "gamadim" : to short people, to the race, to the illnese.
but i think its dwarfs, becuase the origin is nordic {Scandinavia},
oulaf, leaf, all those words.

[Asta Kask]

The Swedish word is 'dvärg (s) - dvärgar (pl)'. You may notice that the Dark Dwarves in AD&D/D&D are called duergar - that's the Swedish word (or Old Norse word) saying hello to you.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

I believe the correct plural is "persons with dwarfism." :smallbiggrin:
It's political correctness run amok!

[Blynkibrax]

I poked around a bit more.

Appendix F of LotR: "It should be dwarrows (or dwerrows)..."

Tolkien considered both variations.

He did get to use it in the end, though: hence, 'Dwarrowdelf'. :smallamused:

[Lemonus]

I think it's "dwarves"

[Eldan]

The Swedish word is 'dvärg (s) - dvärgar (pl)'. You may notice that the Dark Dwarves in AD&D/D&D are called duergar - that's the Swedish word (or Old Norse word) saying hello to you.

The Duergar also seem a bit closer to their mythological roots. Vulnerable to sunlight and able to make themselves invisible.

[Templarkommando]

I've had an English teacher count off on a spelling test for spelling it dwarves. I looked it up in the dictionary and it said either way was acceptable; however in a unit on fantasy I would think the definitive fantastical authority is someone like Tolkien who spells it dwarves.

[Asta Kask]

I asked a professional editor at another forum - he said he would change 'dwarves' to 'dwarfs' unless it was a fantasy text, and even then he would ask the author.