How to deal with a sociopath?

[Vorpalbob]

I've done the research, and the person I am referring to shows most of the signs of a sociopath.

There is a girl at my high school. Nobody likes her. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of students at this school of 2500 who don't avoid her. She lies constantly, never does any work (that I've seen), screams and swears at administrative staff, and instantly resorts to physical violence if screaming doesn't get what she wants.

She has a particular interest in my group of friends for some reason. At breaks and lunch, when we've taken up a corner or section of hallway with lunch things and are talking, she will enter our space and refuse to leave. Alternately, she will set up just next to us and proceed to talk to no-one on her cell phone at ridiculous volume.

At one point, during a conversation, she hung up and went to the bathroom. I checked her phone while she was gone, and the battery was dead. When she returned, she grabbed up her phone and began shrieking into it again.

We have sought the assistance of teachers many times, and she quiets down or leaves us alone. That is, she does until the teacher is out of sight/earshot.

Me and my friends have had many encounters with her, ALL of which have begun with her entering OUR space and all physical altercations instigated by HER. The most recent got her and I suspended, and she received a concussion.

This is a description of that event.
Myself and my friend Alex were sitting in front of my locker, eating lunch and talking. She came and got something out of her locker, which is a few down from mine. We completely ignored her, not even looking her way. A few moments later, she had walked over and was attacking Alex. She was punching him in the back and screaming nonsense into his ear. He yelled at her to stop, that he had done absolutely nothing to provoke her, but she would not. I got up to intervene. I grabbed her arm, and she bit me.

I have received training in a martial art that emphasizes the single contact. IE, if combat is absolutely necessary, I am to attempt to end it with a single contact. If necessary, I am to continue with one contact at a time.

I punched her in the head, and she fell back against the locker. Alex and I began to pick up our things and leave, and I was headed right for the principal's office. I was not going to put up with any more of her crap. I wanted her expelled.

I then felt her clawing and punching my back. I spun around, and my foot met her cheek. That time, she did not continue her assault.

We have never done anything to aggravate, irritate, or provoke this girl. Teachers and other staff rarely, if ever, punish her unless she attacks someone. I want to know what to do to prevent this girl from terrorizing anyone else, as she has left me alone since our last encounter. The principal absolutely hates her, but won't do anything about her.

WE NEED HELP!
Thank you. I needed to release that anger.

[truemane]

The only thing(s) you can do with people who suffer from genuine mental illness is (are), 1. get them help, 2. detain them.

That's really about it. If she's sick, she's sick and getting her to stop acting the way she acts is like trying to get someone with the flu to stop sneezing.

So, you go to the principal. Didn't work. Teachers won't help? You have one set of options left, really:

1. Call the police.

OR

2. Let it go.

And that's it. End of story. Have her charged with assault and all the hullabaloo implied thereby or don't. You probably can't get her hospitalized unless her parents/guardians are involved somehow. You can't force her to see a doctor, assuming she can find one and/or afford one that can help her. I mean, it must be obvious to her parents/guardians/caregivers by now that something is seriously wrong. If they haven't dealt with it (or if their actions have been so ineffective), then there's not much you can do. Short of having her arrested.

Your hands are tied. All you can do is appeal to higher authority or do your best to deal with her.

Dealing with mental illness is a horrible, horrible thing. I speak from bitter, bitter experience.

[Ytaker]

You said you knew people who didn't avoid her. Does she have any friends?

She sounds like she wanted attention in a very inappropriate way. Is there any way you could refer her to a school nurse or counselor?

[CrimsonAngel]

That was pretty badass, what you did.

Oh and yeah, what trumane said.

[Dr.Epic]

I'd try teachers again. Really, if you don't want someone to hang around you and you tell them to leave and they don't then yes you might be better off getting someone with authority to make sure they leave you alone. If you could someone (secretly) record/tape her being loud than you'd have evidence to back up your case.

[RS14]

Take it up with the police and try to get assault charges filed, or request that the courts grant a peace bond or restraining order. It might be better to have Alex do so, since he was attacked unprovoked, while you intervened in an existing combat.

[Faulty]

Can I just say that pathologizing her is kind of dangerous. She's obviously a very troubled person, but I'd really shy from claiming that she's a sociopath when you don't know what's really going on in her life.

Anyway, there is honestly not much you can really do other than, as truemane said, appeal to a higher authority. Talk to faculty again, and possibly report the assault, but other than that your hands are tied.

[Keld Denar]

1. Call the police.

This, and only this. What she did was battery, a crime. Adults go to jail for less. There is no excuse. You don't even have to press charges, just report it. There are witnesses. You might have to give an official statement, so make sure you have your dates/times/persons recorded (sit down and write down EVERYTHING, its surprising how quickly you forget details like times and locations) so you can give the most accurate statement possible. Don't do it out of bitterness, do it out of pity, and as much altruism as you can scrounge up.

The authorities WILL take care of her. She'll probably end up in an environment where she'll be forced to get help, and she won't be a menace. By not getting help, she's just reinforcing her bad behaviors. Eventually, she could seriously hurt someone/herself. While the only person who is responsible for her actions is her, I know if I was in your position, I would still feel guilty if that happened. You don't want that. The best thing you can do for her is to be the better person and force her to get help, in the only way you have the power to do so, by involving the appropriate authorities.

[Castaras]

This, and only this. What she did was battery, a crime. Adults go to jail for less. There is no excuse. You don't even have to press charges, just report it. There are witnesses. You might have to give an official statement, so make sure you have your dates/times/persons recorded (sit down and write down EVERYTHING, its surprising how quickly you forget details like times and locations) so you can give the most accurate statement possible. Don't do it out of bitterness, do it out of pity, and as much altruism as you can scrounge up.

The authorities WILL take care of her. She'll probably end up in an environment where she'll be forced to get help, and she won't be a menace. By not getting help, she's just reinforcing her bad behaviors. Eventually, she could seriously hurt someone/herself. While the only person who is responsible for her actions is her, I know if I was in your position, I would still feel guilty if that happened. You don't want that. The best thing you can do for her is to be the better person and force her to get help, in the only way you have the power to do so, by involving the appropriate authorities.

This. Don't know what country you're in, but here in Britain, if such a thing happened as this, I'd be very surprised if the police haven't been involved at least once yet. Go to them and explain to them what you've told us - only more so. You need more detail, and names of people who can confirm what you say. Evidence is useful, and you almost certainly will end up in a court case if you do such a thing - if she really is as bad as you paint her, then it's the best thing you can do.

[Adumbration]

Can I just say that pathologizing her is kind of dangerous. She's obviously a very troubled person, but I'd really shy from claiming that she's a sociopath when you don't know what's really going on in her life.

This. I don't care how many wikipedia articles you've read, unless you're a trained professional with years of experience and several sessions with the person in question - you're not qualified to call her a sociopath. I would really avoid calling anyone that even in casual conversation with your friends. It's the kind of stigmata that spreads fast and is hard to shake, true or false.

Obviously she has issues, but that doesn't make her crazy. She might be, who knows, you might have won the guessing lottery on this occasion. But she might not be. She might be desperate, lonely, rejected and furious. And that's a deep pit to climb out from.

Just my 2 cents.

[mangosta71]

Calling the police before she takes that behavior out into the real world where people carry firearms (at least around here, I dunno how many people do in Canadia) would be doing her a favor.

[Don Julio Anejo]

This. I don't care how many wikipedia articles you've read, unless you're a trained professional with years of experience and several sessions with the person in question - you're not qualified to call her a sociopath. I would really avoid calling anyone that even in casual conversation with your friends. It's the kind of stigmata that spreads fast and is hard to shake, true or false.
A sociopath is not a diagnosis. Anyone can call anyone else who's being a complete jerkass to society as a whole a sociopath. That's the very definition of the term. Diagnosis people are talking about here would be APD (antisocial personality disorder) and/or psychopathy (researchers are still debating on whether they're different things or psychopathy is a subset of APD).

However, neither APD nor psychopathy have anything at all to do with violence. Heck, if most of you met a psychopath, you'd think he was the best thing ever since sliced bread. Before he backstabs you and takes all your stuff, that is.

But seriously, best way of dealing with her would, in fact, be getting her mental help from trained professionals. Getting her punished/arrested will likely have very little effect from what I can tell. And in any case, punishment only works on people who are actually afraid of it (one of the many reasons telling on bullies is not effective, they don't give a crap about being sent to the principal).

[Adumbration]

A sociopath is not a diagnosis. Anyone can call anyone else who's being a complete jerkass to society as a whole a sociopath. That's the very definition of the term. Diagnosis people are talking about here would be APD (antisocial personality disorder) and/or psychopathy (researchers are still debating on whether they're different things or psychopathy is a subset of APD).

However, neither APD nor psychopathy have anything at all to do with violence. Heck, if most of you met a psychopath, you'd think he was the best thing ever since sliced bread. Before he backstabs you and takes all your stuff, that is.

But seriously, best way of dealing with her would, in fact, be getting her mental help from trained professionals.

Sociopathy is defined as a subset of APD, at least by some sources. Going to sound silly after my rant about Wikipedia, but it does come in handy sometimes.

[hamishspence]

A sociopath is not a diagnosis. Anyone can call anyone else who's being a complete jerkass to society as a whole a sociopath. That's the very definition of the term. Diagnosis people are talking about here would be APD (antisocial personality disorder) and/or psychopathy (researchers are still debating on whether they're different things or psychopathy is a subset of APD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

Here- it mentions that one theorist- David Lykken- saw sociopathy as more environmental, psychopathy as more hereditary (both factors contribute in both cases, though).


David T. Lykken proposes psychopathy and sociopathy are two distinct kinds of antisocial personality disorder. He believes psychopaths are born with temperamental differences such as impulsivity, cortical underarousal, and fearlessness that lead them to risk-seeking behavior and an inability to internalize social norms. On the other hand, he claims sociopaths have relatively normal temperaments; their personality disorder being more an effect of negative sociological factors like parental neglect, delinquent peers, poverty, and extremely low or extremely high intelligence. Both personality disorders are the result of an interaction between genetic predispositions and environmental factors, but psychopathy leans towards the hereditary whereas sociopathy tends towards the environmental.
(the link to David Lykken might imply this should probably be phrased in the past tense, since it says he died a few years ago).

[Calmness]

There is a girl at my high school. Nobody likes her. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of students at this school of 2500 who don't avoid her. She lies constantly, never does any work (that I've seen), screams and swears at administrative staff, and instantly resorts to physical violence if screaming doesn't get what she wants.

She has a particular interest in my group of friends for some reason. At breaks and lunch, when we've taken up a corner or section of hallway with lunch things and are talking, she will enter our space and refuse to leave. Alternately, she will set up just next to us and proceed to talk to no-one on her cell phone at ridiculous volume.

At one point, during a conversation, she hung up and went to the bathroom. I checked her phone while she was gone, and the battery was dead. When she returned, she grabbed up her phone and began shrieking into it again.

This might be a silly question but, did you try asking this girl why she is sitting with you, or what problem she has with you guys? Was that an option? I mean, even crazy people have their reasons.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Sociopathy is defined as a subset of APD, at least by some sources. Going to sound silly after my rant about Wikipedia, but it does come in handy sometimes.
Not according to DSM-IV it's not. APD is defined as what's better summarized as "affinity for criminal behaviour" (my own words, don't quote me on this), as in things like cheating, lying, conning, lack of empathy, and pure psychopathy is considered a subset. That is, all psychopaths also have APD but not all people with APD are psychopaths and for many it's purely environmental, as evidenced by high prevalence rate of APD in poor urban environments.

And to my understanding they're changing it for DSM V so APD won't be a catch-all umbrella term anymore for anyone who can be described as "antisocial." A poor urban gangster who has no other choice but to run drugs, a kid who burns down his school and a glib conman are very different people from a psychological perspective.

PS: sorry for the scientific talk, didn't even notice I spiraled into it.

This might be a silly question but, did you try asking this girl why she is sitting with you, or what problem she has with you guys? Was that an option? I mean, even crazy people have their reasons.
Well, the definition of crazy is that they don't have reasons... but yeah, diplomacy is always something you should try first.

[Katana_Geldar]

Has she been at your school long? If she hasn't chances are she's been shunted around from school to school and has some sort of record.

[hamishspence]

Not according to DSM-IV it's not. APD is defined as what's better summarized as "affinity for criminal behaviour" (my own words, don't quote me on this), as in things like cheating, lying, conning, lack of empathy, and pure psychopathy is considered a subset.

The page I linked to above mentions that DSM IV is criticised since it merges too much under the same term.

[Don Julio Anejo]

The page I linked to above mentions that DSM IV is criticised since it merges too much under the same term.
Which is why I said they're changing it for DSM V, but we won't know for certain until it comes out. I would suggest looking at ICD-10, but unfortunately I don't have a copy of one.

Also, checked the wiki page. They said pretty much the same thing I did - APD, while intended to stand in for psychopathy, does not put enough emphasis on psychopathic features and focuses almost entirely on observable behaviour, such as violence or problems with the law. On the other hand, many features of psychopathy are cognitive (no fear of punishment) or interpersonal (lack of empathy, inability to form deep relationships) and as such aren't easily observable.

As such I can see why APD can be viewed as sociopathy if you go by the wikipedia description. That said, sociopathy is not a psychological diagnosis. It's a catch-all term to for, well, people who are sociopathic (i.e. violent, abusive, problems with the law, etc). You won't encounter the term much even in criminal psychology textbooks.

[thubby]

she needs seriously psychiatric help. I'm assuming you've brought this to your parents' attention?

[Nosferocktu]

Wow... have you or any of the teachers ever confronted the parents of this girl? If she needs help and the teachers can't give it, the parents need to assume responsibility for this kid.

[AsteriskAmp]

1. I would tell you to ask her the cause of her following of your group first and try to work it out.

2. If that doesn't work, talk to your parents for advice or help.

If you feel step number 2 wouldn't work:
You may want to talk to her parents and tell them of your situation.
You may want to talk to the teachers or the principal about this

Still your parents are in a better position than you to handle this and they can provide a better advice since they know you, probably your school situation and rules, and possibly may have heard about her.

Also, try to avoid labelling, specially with concepts that not even the experts know how to handle exactly and that are also part of popular misconceptions, as they can easily worsen the situation, to a minimum.

If you look for labels and tidbit facts for qualifying for a certain condition, everyone of us would have at least 15 conditions and several of them contradicting, there is a reason psychology is a career.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Calling the police before she takes that behavior out into the real world where people carry firearms (at least around here, I dunno how many people do in Canadia) would be doing her a favor.

The only people who carry firearms around are either out in the country hunting, police, or Albertans.

[Partof1]

The only people who carry firearms around are either out in the country hunting, police, or Albertans.

Hey! Not usually we don't. Though we are often in the country, and we are possibly hunting. And you'll know we're carrying a firearm.

[Tonal Architect]

I agree that labelling her a sociopath might too much, even if her behaviour is obviously excessive.

Other than that, you mentioned she was clawing and punching at your back; from how much strength she put into those, could you tell if she was indeed trying to assault you? She was obviously being bothersome, obnoxiously so, but it's important to estabilish if she meant business or not.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Hey! Not usually we don't. Though we are often in the country, and we are possibly hunting. And you'll know we're carrying a firearm.

Twas a jest. I enjoy poking fun at Albertans almost as much as Codlanders.

Edit: On topic though: Police. I would inform them, if nothing else.

[WarKitty]

Agreed with the police. If nothing else, it makes the school sit up and pay attention to the fact that they need to be doing something.

[druid91]

This might be a silly question but, did you try asking this girl why she is sitting with you, or what problem she has with you guys? Was that an option? I mean, even crazy people have their reasons.

This. Always try killing with kindness.

Everyone has there reasons. Unless they don't.

And then she's out of luck.

[Anxe]

If I were in your situation I would call the police.

Also, I find it a little bit funny that this is posted in the "Friendly Banter" section of the forums.

[Deth Muncher]

To quote Ben Stiller's dad (I think) - "Bitches be crazy."

Now, to the point - although the martial arts you did is awesome, I feel like it's going to come back to bite you if you report her to the cops, so be wary of that. Regardless, I still strongly suggest you go to the cops and explain to them exactly what has happened, and explain the repeated issues. Doesn't matter how dumb it may sound when you say it - cops are generally good people, and if you can make it clear that this girl is disturbed and a menace to society, they'll do something about it.

[Ytaker]

You did attack her back. The police will be disinclined to get involved. They might just go talk to her, and then she'll get annoyed at you personally.

[Vorpalbob]

Alright, I'll respond those of you who asked questions first.


You said you knew people who didn't avoid her. Does she have any friends?

She sounds like she wanted attention in a very inappropriate way. Is there any way you could refer her to a school nurse or counselor?
I wouldn't call them friends. One is her sister, who is actually quite a nice girl. She was in my English class last year. The others are probably just being polite, judging by the way they seem to act trapped.

She has had talks with counselors, and I believe the school constable. What the outcomes of those meetings were, I am unsure.


This might be a silly question but, did you try asking this girl why she is sitting with you, or what problem she has with you guys? Was that an option? I mean, even crazy people have their reasons.
Even during the very few times she acts like a human being, we try to avoid talking to her at all costs. Teachers and others I have spoken with about her say she might be trying to become friends with us. Is there a more ridiculous concept? :smallannoyed:


Has she been at your school long? If she hasn't chances are she's been shunted around from school to school and has some sort of record.
She came to my school towards the end of last school year, but didn't really make a name for herself until the 2010-2011 year. If she has been moved around, I can easily see why.


she needs seriously psychiatric help. I'm assuming you've brought this to your parents' attention?
When my mother heard about this, she was FURIOUS. Partially at me for acting as I did, but mostly at the school for giving me the same suspension the girl got.


Wow... have you or any of the teachers ever confronted the parents of this girl? If she needs help and the teachers can't give it, the parents need to assume responsibility for this kid.
I know nothing about her parents. If they even care about what their daughter is doing, they sure aren't showing it. Guess what? I was asked to write an apology to her parents, as I flatly (and I think rightly) refused to apologize to her.


Other than that, you mentioned she was clawing and punching at your back; from how much strength she put into those, could you tell if she was indeed trying to assault you? She was obviously being bothersome, obnoxiously so, but it's important to estabilish if she meant business or not.
I've been in enough fights to know she was giving it her all. Her attacks were as fast and as hard as she could. I'd say she was either combining Flurry of Blows and Power attack, or she was in a Barbarian Rage. :smalltongue:


Also, I find it a little bit funny that this is posted in the "Friendly Banter" section of the forums.
I noted that irony as well, but there isn't exactly a more fitting section.

Sorry, I'm out of time for now. I'll be back later to reply more.

[HalfTangible]

I've been labeled as a psychopath/sociopath before (behind my back, even) and i can tell you that deciding such a thing when you aren't a psychologist is about as self-fulfilling as it gets. Treat someone like they're going to explode at any moment, and they will.

The next time she attacks unprovoked, treat it like a bad joke. Then walk up to the phone and call the police. This works best if she actually sees you go up to the phone, she might attack you mid-call which is pretty convincing evidence she's attacking you.

She may have some serious relationship/trust issues. Ask her what problem, precisely, she has with you. Speak rudely, truthfully and with force whenever you ask a question or make a point. Speaking polite may seem kind to some, but to others it's perceived as dishonesty and a patronizing attitude, particularly if you're hostile towards the person anyway. Basically tell the harsh, unvarnished truth, it goes a long way with psychopaths that aren't politicians.

Make a note of any witnesses, or carry a tape recorder with you. if she's as loud and violent as you claim, it should be simple to get a recording. Also make sure you make note of dates and times for each incident.

One last one is simply tell her 'I don't want to talk to you or listen to you if you're not going to be mature about it' and then don't speak to her, look at her or even acknowledge her presence. If she attacks, fight back or call a principal but don't speak to her.

I cannot personally vouche for any of the above, but i drew most of them off of the exact opposite of what i wanted people to do when i was in that state of constant anger that people labeled as psychosis. Though, I didn't attack anyone so this might not work out.

If she wants to be friends with you, be friendly when she's acting like a human and ignore her when she isn't.

My single biggest piece of advice: do NOT treat her like she's crazy. Treat her like she's ticked off.

[bluewind95]

Ehhh.... she doesn't sound like anything I've read about psycopathy/sociopathy. Sounds more like serious, serious issues regulating impulses, coupled with severe emotional problems...

I'd say, have a serious talk with the school authorities. Poor girl, I hope she gets help.

[Don Julio Anejo]

You did attack her back. The police will be disinclined to get involved. They might just go talk to her, and then she'll get annoyed at you personally.
Fighting back and attacking are different things. When someone comes at you with fists swinging, it's self defence. No-one (except school teachers and disciplinarians) expects you to just sit there and take punches.

Other than that... She's not a psychopath by any means, however she does probably need psychiatric help. No rational person just comes out and randomly attacks others for no good reason.

[AsteriskAmp]

Even during the very few times she acts like a human being, we try to avoid talking to her at all costs. Teachers and others I have spoken with about her say she might be trying to become friends with us. Is there a more ridiculous concept? :smallannoyed:

Actually no, the concept is not ridiculous, people longing for entrance to a group or human interaction can get violent and often do illogical things since it seems to make perfect sense in their (for a period of my life, our) heads. I don't know proper psychology as explained by many people here, what I do know from my experience is that she in fact could be trying to be friends with you, only she is using the wrong methods. She could interpret the feedback you are giving her as anything. It's not insanity, it's a lack of social interaction gone wrong, I went to a psychologist because of this, and can actually say that from my experience professional help can help, but there is also a factor of acceptance within the group you are longing entrance to. I have stabbed my best friend with a key, cut a classmate with a key, and punched another classmate at a sleepover that was in school, for really stupid reasons, I didn't know why I did that, but I regretted it, learnt to say sorry, focus on never doing it again, and tried to repair the broken bridges. But you can't start fixing them until you realise you have broken them, and normally the group or the afflicted person can be vital for this, and for that I thank my former victims and actual friends.


When my mother heard about this, she was FURIOUS. Partially at me for acting as I did, but mostly at the school for giving me the same suspension the girl got.

I really hate to tell you this, as it is kinda old-fashioned and based on gender roles, but a gentleman never touches a lady, not even with the petal of arose (translated rather badly from a Spanish saying), I could guess your mother may be angry because of this. Also, that you both got the same suspension is partially related to how you reacted, you could have tried another way, I can't speak for you, it could have been the only way, but the school has to take a Neutral viewpoint, and therefore, they evaluated your reaction as wrong in the same level as her attack, I do not necessarily approve of this as I don't really know the complete panorama


I know nothing about her parents. If they even care about what their daughter is doing, they sure aren't showing it.

She could be going to therapy with her parents, they might be going to a therapist to learn how to handle their daughter, parents want to prevent damage from their kids, so the usual thing to do is act from the shadows to try to prevent your kids problems from surfacing and being commented by others. My situation was similar, my parents took me to several therapists, they didn't talk about it, and before I could change, I had to understand that I was wrong, the first step takes a lot of time. This moment she could be working on that subtle but meaningful first step.

[Ytaker]

Fighting back and attacking are different things. When someone comes at you with fists swinging, it's self defence. No-one (except school teachers and disciplinarians) expects you to just sit there and take punches.

People will take the definition of self defence a long way. People will still claim it's self defence when they are kneeling over a person punching them in the face repeatedly as the person sobs for mercy. Often, both parties will claim it was self defence after the fight is over. Police are suspicious of people who claim it's self defence. It's not a reliable defence.

[THAC0]

People will take the definition of self defence a long way. People will still claim it's self defence when they are kneeling over a person punching them in the face repeatedly as the person sobs for mercy. Often, both parties will claim it was self defence after the fight is over. Police are suspicious of people who claim it's self defence. It's not a reliable defence.

Goes the other way, too. There are people out there who believe that you are never justified in harming anyone, ever.

I'm a huge fan of self defense, myself. However, being a woman, I am usually on the better side of the law than a man might be. US laws, s'all I'm familiar with.

[Ytaker]

Oh, yeah. As a woman you have an advantage too. Police officers will be less likely to assume it's your fault.

Whereas the guy, well, he's more likely to be considered guilty.

[Vorpalbob]

Before I continue to reply, I should say this; I know for a fact that this girl has been diagnosed with some form of Autism. The thing is, so have I and many of my friends. In all the years my school has had the Autism Resource Centre, never has any student randomly attacked someone. This leads me to suspect that there is more than just Autism messing her up.


...what I do know from my experience is that she in fact could be trying to be friends with you, only she is using the wrong methods...
EXCUSE ME. She was f***ing ATTACKING my friend, with INTENTION TO HARM. He had several nasty bruises to that effect. A light punch on the shoulder is friendly under some circumstances, but what she did is damn unforgivable seeing as none of us did ANYTHING to her.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong.


I really hate to tell you this, as it is kinda old-fashioned and based on gender roles, but a gentleman never touches a lady, not even with the petal of arose (translated rather badly from a Spanish saying), I could guess your mother may be angry because of this.
Considering who my mother is, this is highly unlikely. She is fully supportive of gender equality in all areas. She's angry because the aggressor got the same punishment as the defender.


People will take the definition of self defence a long way. People will still claim it's self defence when they are kneeling over a person punching them in the face repeatedly as the person sobs for mercy. Often, both parties will claim it was self defence after the fight is over. Police are suspicious of people who claim it's self defence. It's not a reliable defence.
I had a talk with the school constable, and he explained the concept of self defense as it applies in Canadian law. From what he told me, seeing as she turned her aggressions to me when I intervened, my actions were almost entirely legal. Had I not grabbed her prior to her biting me, with all the witnesses there were (it was a crowded hall at lunch), only a very biased jury would have ruled against me.


She could be going to therapy with her parents, they might be going to a therapist to learn how to handle their daughter, parents want to prevent damage from their kids, so the usual thing to do is act from the shadows to try to prevent your kids problems from surfacing and being commented by others.
If this is true, that's good, but I have not seen any changes. I will inquire with the Autism Centre staff for information about that.


She may have some serious relationship/trust issues. Ask her what problem, precisely, she has with you. Speak rudely, truthfully and with force whenever you ask a question or make a point.
This is exactly what I do when I do speak to her. I gave up trying to be civil with her a long time ago. Anything I have to say to her is extremely to the point and without any politeness. Next opportunity I have, I will ask her this.


No-one (except school teachers and disciplinarians) expects you to just sit there and take punches.
You are right on that one. I cannot count the number of times I have had this discussion with an Authority Figure;

AF "If something like that happens again, just walk away and come find me."
Me "So, what? I'm just supposed to let them beat on me/my friend?"
AF "..."

They never have an answer.


My single biggest piece of advice: do NOT treat her like she's crazy. Treat her like she's ticked off.
Interesting, I'll try that.

I have a lot of suggestions for the cops, and the school constable knows exactly what happened and what this girl has been doing. As to his powers in this situation, I am unclear. He is a police officer, not a security guard like I hear some schools have nowadays.

And as to the martial arts, the 'style' I use is kind of cobbled together from the few years of Tae Kwon Do I did, some stuff my friend with three black belts in various disciplines taught me, basic grappling (I try to avoid this due to my nearly nonexistent upper body strength :smalltongue:), and my knowledge of biology and body mechanics. The single contact thing is from a book I once read. Geeky, yes, but it works. :smallcool:

I am not proud of what I did. I did what I did because my friend was under attack, and it is part of my personal code to help. I am proud only of the fact that I did it right. I try not to let anger into my fighting, as that just inhibits judgment, however I have never seen my foot move as fast as it did on that day.

[Kislath]

She sounds more schizophrenic to me than sociopathic.

[AsteriskAmp]

EXCUSE ME. She was f***ing ATTACKING my friend, with INTENTION TO HARM. He had several nasty bruises to that effect. A light punch on the shoulder is friendly under some circumstances, but what she did is damn unforgivable seeing as none of us did ANYTHING to her.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong.

I've been there, and I sadly have done a similar thing, randomly attacking someone who I considered friendly. Allow me to tell you I've been there so I have a feel of what is going through her head. I was in a very similar position, in the middle of recesses, for reasons that now elude me, (the only thing I know for sure was that I wasn't provoked) went on to attack another student, I began attacking as if my life depended on it for no reason, when a teacher saw us, (he had tried to defend himself) he send us to the teacher in charge of conduct. I plainly said I had no motive to attack him, heck, I was the only one to actually cause real damage. I got off writing a letter that said I was sorry and that I wouldn't do it again(since my conduct grades were excellent since I could control myself in class and my academic record was outstanding and the teachers got a liking of me since I tended to briefly chat with them after classes), he got a heavy hit in his conduct grade and was blamed for it. It took me 4 months to realise the wrongness of that, I apologized for that, and tried to show him how repentant I was of my behaviour, we eventually become friends and even after he moved out of the country, we still kinda keep in touch.

I wanted to be friends with him, only that in my frustration for a lack of methods I went and attacked him, I actually did this more than once. My first step was realising that what I was doing was wrong. Thankfully, the people on my environment were quite understanding, and tolerated and helped me during the process, as a result, I'm a relatively productive member of society who now not only has no outbursts, but tries to helps others in his proximity in whatever problem they have, I learnt to canalize my emotions into helping other.

It's not a disease, or schizophrenia, its a lack of emotional control and situational control, both filed under EQ. She needs help, and if you are part of the solution, you may be very well making a great friend. At least this is what happened in my case.

[Anxe]

If you're not comfortable going to the police yourself perhaps you should tell your parents that you'd like to do so. They'll help.

[Asta Kask]

Sounds to me like she's a teenager.

[bluewind95]

Ahh... autism... she likely doesn't quite notice that she's ticking you off, or when you've had enough and other such things. Autism makes it hard for people to notice social cues or, well, rules. She may very well think she's being "friendly", especially in the sense she seems to want your attention, even if she's getting it in completely the wrong way.

She definitely does not sound like a sociopath.

Poor girl...

[pendell]

A question and some advice:

1) Do you have such a thing in your country as a restraining order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraining_order)?

2) My other suggestion is: Document, document, document. Build a paper trail on every incident, when, where, what , etc. Get it attested by witnesses. Get it officially recorded in school records. Build an overwhelming amount of LEGAL evidence that this person has a problem and is harassing you, then go in to see the headmaster with your paper trail and your parents and possibly a lawyer and explain you have a problem. The next step if the head won't co-operate is legal action.

At the very least, the head has to start building their own paper trail to demonstrate what actions he/she has taken to solve this problem, and changes will happen.

Dunno how it works over there, but over hear a school official reacts very differently to a mountain of legal documents and adults with lawyers than they do to students who have nothing but their own words to back them up.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[HalfTangible]

Autism...

Can't really help there =/ the form i have is aspbergers, and it's relatively mild at that.

[grimbold]

1. Call the police.

are you over 16?
because she will get in a lot more trouble if she's over 16. (federal crime).

otherwise try to be kind to her and be patient with her and her issues unless she really crosses a line. I think what you did was justifiable and I'm a pacifist.

[mangosta71]

The only people who carry firearms around are either out in the country hunting, police, or Albertans.
Fair enough. I know that almost every state in the US has a concealed carry law, so there are people with hidden weapons everywhere. And, given that the OP lists his location as Vancouver, I consider it likely that there's at least occasional border-hopping. If she did this to someone in Seattle she could well end up in the morgue, and however much anyone may dislike the girl, most people wouldn't say that she deserves that.

She needs help, and the people that can take her to get it (assuming that her parents won't) are the police.

[super dark33]

hello vorpalbob.
now here is true answer to your problem, not a joke.

first, i can say that she got some issues. maybe its even some kind of retardation in some way. check a little. maybe that why no one punished her.
another scanerio is that in some point of her childehood, she got a trauma. now she got flashback, so she attack you becuse she get a seizure. for a exemple, maybe a thife get in her house when she was young or somting, so now she is very aggresive about her stuff. maybe she want to feel sourunded by friends {I.E she want to feel like a celebrity or someone importent}.
so-try to understand her situation. but do it gentle. ask your teacher first, maybe they know somthing about her family, her parents.
if it look normal ther, maybe it is somthing about school. you know, bullys and stuff. find out. do some detactive work {dont take it too seriously!!!}
and, as i understand, you need to accept her in some way. she wont disappear, learn her behavior. what you shouldent do in front of her.

and for a last resort, tell your parents {if they dont know yet}. they have to do somthing. i know that if it woulde happned to me, my parents will do anything to stop it. act. do somthing. nothing will disappear by itself.

well, thats all. hope it will help!

(credit for my brother, who learns psychology)

[Keld Denar]

If she did this to someone in Seattle she could well end up in the morgue, and however much anyone may dislike the girl, most people wouldn't say that she deserves that.

Especially in Belltown. We have enough problems with people shooting each other there, we don't need any other problems. I don't even go to Belltown anymore, even though there are some of the best bars and dance clubs there. I's scared!

I wouldn't do the restraining order thing. I've had to get once against a psycho ex. They really don't protect you at all. All it does is ensures that she'd get punished AFTER the fact. Its not like there is some shimmering magical force field around you that keeps the person away. If she really has a blatent disregard for authority and/or consequences, a restraining order will protect you from another attack about as well as the paper its printed on. This goes extra since you are in school, since logistically they can't exactly keep a reasonable distance apart when you both have to be holed up in the same building for 8+ hours a day.

As good Mr Pendell and myself have suggested, document document document. Write down everything, dates, times, persons, etc. When you file a report, they are gonna ask you for all that info anyway, so its best to have it on hand. Trust me, when I got my restraining order, I had to list like, 5 different occassions where she harrassed me. Thats a lot, and its really hard to keep events straight after a bit of time goes by.

Then go to the police. Seriously. It may sound mean, but its really for her own good. She sounds out of control and dangerous, both to herself and to others. You are not equipped or qualified to deal with her, I don't care how well meaning you are. You just aren't. She needs serious, professional help. Don't approach the police with the attitude that you are trying to punish her. They will or won't punish her as the laws and courts dictate. Approach the police with the attitude that you are really trying to help her, and that you are worried for her own safety, as well as yours and your friends. They'll be much more inclined to believe you in that regard. There will probably be an investigation. I had to talk to a detective, which was kinda cool, but also kinda scary. If you are armed with all of your documentation and facts, that process should go really quickly and really easily for you.

Trust me, if you do this, action will be taken, and hopefully the quality of everyone's life involved will be improved. Don't try to fix this yourself, leave that to the professionals.

*across the boarder wave*

[Dacia Brabant]

What Keld said (I miss Belltown :smallfrown: ), and I would take it a step further and suggest you and your friend see an attorney and swear an affidavit, once you've gone through with him and other willing witnesses and documented everything that happened to the best of your recollection. I don't know anything about the Canadian system, but since you fought back and were also suspended in the incident it could affect the outcome of the case, so you would do well to have all of this sworn into evidence, perhaps even representation depending on how she or her parents/guardian or the school responds.

[WarKitty]

Agreed. Document everything, and get as many people to document things as you can. Then go to the police. Much as she has issues, you CANNOT let yourself be the one to try to solve them. I've been there - once there is violence involved, you have to let someone professional handle it. Otherwise it just ends up with someone getting hurt.

[Crow]

Ask her out.

I'll bet she's a lot of fun. *wink*

[Adumbration]

Before you take any drastic steps, though, I'd suggest you look at some precedents. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/AbuseIsOkayWhenItIsFemaleOnMale) I'm not saying you shouldn't do anything, but there's a good chance of backfiring.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Umm, though I know some of y'all are trying to altruism here, I don't care if you are a retarded pregnant cancer patient with autism and glasses. If they attack a human being, with intent to cause serious bodily harm, you defend yourself, and then call the cops on their butt.

Just because they may have problems causing it doesn't mean they need pity. Or at least not only pity. It just means they need pulled out all the more so they can get help.

Many times 'oh, had a bad childhood' is nothing more than an excuse. Mine was far from happy. I've never laid a hand on anyone in my life. Nor has any of my siblings. It may be generalizing, but if you find it worth slugging someone to get their attention, you obviously care more for yourself than that person you're hitting. In fact, you probably aren't even thinking about it, being so riled up. That is where the psychopath bit comes in.

Either you are self-absorbed, out of control, or incapable of empathy, or barring that, capable of ignoring empathy. Adds up to the same thing. They need looked at.

Edit: And that bit with the 'don't even touch a woman with a rose petal'. Yeah, my mom is of that mind set. She once was telling my brothers this crap, that even if she pulls a knife on you, you can't fight back. I'm a very old fashioned guy, but even so that is the biggest bunch of horse hockey I've ever heard and I tell her so. They give up the right to chivalry if they try to cause serious bodily harm. You do what it takes to protect yourself and those around you. The fact that a mother would care more about some random female assassin than her own sons says a lot about my upwards comment about not having a great childhood.

Sometimes you have to learn by bad example.

[pendell]

Edit: And that bit with the 'don't even touch a woman with a rose petal'. Yeah, my mom is of that mind set. She once was telling my brothers this crap, that even if she pulls a knife on you, you can't fight back. I'm a very old fashioned guy, but even so that is the biggest bunch of horse hockey I've ever heard and I tell her so. They give up the right to chivalry if they try to cause serious bodily harm. You do what it takes to protect yourself and those around you. The fact that a mother would care more about some random female assassin than her own sons says a lot about my upwards comment about not having a great childhood.


QFT. "don't hit a woman", in the chivalry I grew up in, doesn't mean that you don't defend yourself against physical attack. It means that you don't raise your hand to your partner because you're angry with them, or because they're not doing what you want, or you're not getting your way, or as a substitute for discussion.

In other words "don't hit a woman" means "don't be a bully". It works surprisingly well with males too.

But that goes right out the window if it comes to direct physical assault, especially if weapons are involved. If this happens, you run away if you can, and if you can't you defeat the threat using the minimum force necessary.

I observed one marriage where the male started out physically abusive, and he was made to understand that the cops would be called by the female if he ever did it again. The male changed his ways. Later, when the female got physically abusive in turn, the male explained patiently that he would sooner end the marriage than hit back and go back to his old ways. As far as I know, the couple has had a happy -- and mutually non-abusive, at least physically -- relationship ever since.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[super dark33]

My childhood was far from happy..

Vorpal? :smalleek:

[Valameer]

She must be very lonely... she's alienated everyone around her. Surrounded by people, but alone in the crowd.

You mentioned she has a sister. Before you decide that she has mental problems, perhaps ask her sister to shed some light on her behaviour.

Obviously this girl is a complete pain to you and your friends. I'm guessing other students are experiencing a "just glad she doesn't bother us" kind of feeling. So I do feel bad for you and your friends.

But I feel worse for her, honestly. Sounds like she's digging herself into a huge social hole, without a single friend to share highschool with.

[The Succubus]

I'm going to have to call into question your method of self defense here. I don't know what form of martial arts you study or what your instructor has told you but punching someone in the head followed by kicking them in the head doesn't strike me as "defensive". It strikes me as "this person has been getting on my nerves and so I'm going to whale on them and then later claim it was self defense." Almost all martial arts I know of have various means of holds and subjugation techniques. The first punch could be classed as self defence. The kick in the face, definitely not.

School was a particularly wretched time for me and believe it or not I can actually sympathise with your would-be aggressor. I *know* what's like to be shunned by almost every single clique in the school and to be one of those "weird" kids. I'm fairly certain that you do not. When you try to very awkwardly reach out to one of these groups only to have them mocking you, telling you to "f*** off" - believe me, I've been there and never want to go back. It's part of the reason why I avoid Facebook and places of that sort.

However, despite awful it was for me, I usually managed to keep my temper, or at the very least, with a tremendous effort, suppressed a desire to hit back. If I had to hazard a guess, where this girl has been bounced around from school to school, she is unable to do this.

Her sibling may not be of much help - she has all the usual problems associated with school without the added burden of her sister's issues as well. I'm not able to give you much advice but I will say this - scale back your anger, think calmly and logically and (this is the tough part) try a little....empathy?

[super dark33]

self defense stops if the strike kills the attacker, if it dont kill, its self defense

[HalfTangible]

I'm going to have to call into question your method of self defense here. I don't know what form of martial arts you study or what your instructor has told you but punching someone in the head followed by kicking them in the head doesn't strike me as "defensive". It strikes me as "this person has been getting on my nerves and so I'm going to whale on them and then later claim it was self defense." Almost all martial arts I know of have various means of holds and subjugation techniques. The first punch could be classed as self defence. The kick in the face, definitely not.

School was a particularly wretched time for me and believe it or not I can actually sympathise with your would-be aggressor. I *know* what's like to be shunned by almost every single clique in the school and to be one of those "weird" kids. I'm fairly certain that you do not. When you try to very awkwardly reach out to one of these groups only to have them mocking you, telling you to "f*** off" - believe me, I've been there and never want to go back. It's part of the reason why I avoid Facebook and places of that sort.

However, despite awful it was for me, I usually managed to keep my temper, or at the very least, with a tremendous effort, suppressed a desire to hit back. If I had to hazard a guess, where this girl has been bounced around from school to school, she is unable to do this.

Her sibling may not be of much help - she has all the usual problems associated with school without the added burden of her sister's issues as well. I'm not able to give you much advice but I will say this - scale back your anger, think calmly and logically and (this is the tough part) try a little....empathy?

I am also one of those people and i believe he was fully justified. The first punch is something i would classify as retaliation, and the kick was self defense. 'Self defense' stops when the person is no longer capable or willing to fight.


self defense stops if the strike kills the attacker, if it dont kill, its self defense

That's a dangerous way to look at it.

[Comet]

I'd like to join the people who say that throwing punches and kicks is not the optimal form of self defense.
Do a lock, a grab or just plain sit on the crazies until they run out of breath, but out-and-out counterassaults rarely end well. Someone's liable to get seriously hurt, you know?

Then again, the person in this scenario might be crazy enough to actually cause serious harm to the victim, in which case some more drastic measures are not that unreasonable. All in all, not something I would really blame the OP for, but still calls for a bit of thinking in the future.

Anyway, good advice in this thread so far. Just step back and try to act like a reasonable human being. Your calmness and clarity will be the rock that breaks the wave of insanity rushing at you, or something. Also talk to other people about this stuff, as said.

[THAC0]

self defense stops if the strike kills the attacker, if it dont kill, its self defense

Disagree. The point of self defense is to stop someone. That is accomplished in many ways.

[Keld Denar]

self defense stops if the strike kills the attacker, if it dont kill, its self defense

You've never actually taken a self-defense class, have you? Take a hand gun training course like the kind needed to get a concealed carry permit in the US. They teach you to ALWAYS shoot center mass. Largest target, largest kill zone, best odds of not dying yourself. The number one goal of self-defense is to not die or get hurt. Anything that increases your chances of dying or getting hurt is a poor option.

Sometimes you don't have the awareness, reaction speed, or experience to execute a proper arm-bar, or joint lock, or whatever. Sometimes, the only reaction is swing or be swung at. The very little tai kwon do I've taken promotes the use of such manuevers, but it was also very strike oriented. You punch someone in the head properly, or kick them in the knee or groin, and it disables them just as readily as grappling, often with less risk to your own safety. And that is what self-defense is about.

[Calmness]

Ask her out.

I'll bet she's a lot of fun. *wink*
Heh. Crow just won the thread.


I'm going to have to call into question your method of self defense here. I don't know what form of martial arts you study or what your instructor has told you but punching someone in the head followed by kicking them in the head doesn't strike me as "defensive". It strikes me as "this person has been getting on my nerves and so I'm going to whale on them and then later claim it was self defense." Almost all martial arts I know of have various means of holds and subjugation techniques. The first punch could be classed as self defence. The kick in the face, definitely not.

School was a particularly wretched time for me and believe it or not I can actually sympathise with your would-be aggressor. I *know* what's like to be shunned by almost every single clique in the school and to be one of those "weird" kids. I'm fairly certain that you do not. When you try to very awkwardly reach out to one of these groups only to have them mocking you, telling you to "f*** off" - believe me, I've been there and never want to go back. It's part of the reason why I avoid Facebook and places of that sort.

Howdy MasamuneSSX. Vorpalbob's reaction to the attack sounds a little exaggerated to me as well, but we don't know every single detail of the incident. Getting shunned by your schoolmates sucks, but still, this may not be the same situation you were in. I tend to avoid Facebook as well, by the way.


self defense stops if the strike kills the attacker, if it dont kill, its self defense
This is almost funny. You can attempt to justify almost any kind of behavior with generalizations such as these.

[Castaras]

self defense stops if the strike kills the attacker, if it dont kill, its self defense

Self Defense is using appropriate force to defend against what is attacking you. If you're being attacked by an angry person with fists, then you can retaliate with fists and feet. While it's a little more complicated if you're trained in Martial Arts and seriously harm the attacker, most places of law won't frown on that level of self defense.

Getting attacked by an angry person with fists and drawing a pistol or knife isn't self defense.

[HalfTangible]

Getting attacked by an angry person with fists and drawing a pistol or knife isn't self defense.

Sure it is. Until you actually use it.

[hamishspence]

Getting attacked by an angry person with fists and drawing a pistol or knife isn't self defense.

Unless you have "reasonable grounds" to believe you were in imminent danger of death or severe injury- if the person had just broken one or two of your limbs with precise strikes, I'd call that reasonable grounds.

[Jayngfet]

Self Defense is using appropriate force to defend against what is attacking you. If you're being attacked by an angry person with fists, then you can retaliate with fists and feet. While it's a little more complicated if you're trained in Martial Arts and seriously harm the attacker, most places of law won't frown on that level of self defense.

Getting attacked by an angry person with fists and drawing a pistol or knife isn't self defense.

...unless the other guy is the one with Martial Arts. Or he's so obviously bigger than you it's immediatly clear you've got no chance of coming out on top.

What I was taught: If it's a fight, it's a fight. Hit them til they go down, then hit them one more time so they don't just get back up and keep fighting.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Getting attacked by an angry person with fists and drawing a pistol or knife isn't self defense.
I disagree. Generally their mere presence is enough intimidation to make most unarmed assailants back down. That way there is only implied violence, and that doesn't leave a mark.

[Sipex]

So those of you judging the OPs methods of self defense are experts on the subject that would know the exact force appropriate counter to every attack then right? I would also assume those of you making said judgements are completely 100% capable of keeping their cool under a sudden situation like the OP gave and are always capable of making the best decision under such circumstances?

[THAC0]

I disagree. Generally their mere presence is enough intimidation to make most unarmed assailants back down. That way there is only implied violence, and that doesn't leave a mark.

And is sometimes illegal. Make sure you know the laws where you live.

[The Succubus]

If he's learning a martial art and if he's advanced in it, then yes, I would expect him to keep his cool. If he had "lost it", he would have gone in swinging wildly and trying to pull the girl off of his friend. The fact that he was able to pause for a correctly aimed punch, as they teach you in karate and similar, followed by a kick to the head, suggests he had not lost control of his actions. Anyone who does martial arts will tell you that trying to kick someone in the head takes a lot more energy, time and focus than a straightforward punch.

As my instructor once told me - "If you're having to use any of this stuff I'm teaching you, you're already doing something wrong."

[mangosta71]

What I was taught: If it's a fight, it's a fight. Hit them til they go down, then hit them one more time so they don't just get back up and keep fighting.
While I tend to agree, you should be aware that that last shot you take - the one after your opponent is already on the ground - is no longer legally self-defense in most of the US. I understand that it's perfectly acceptable in Israel, though - one of the guys I go shooting with, after nailing his target (particularly those at close range) and saying "Two to drop" fires a shot into the ground while saying "And one to confirm".

@Masamune - Did you notice the circumstances surrounding the kick that the OP gave her? She was attacking him from behind - he spun and kicked without looking first. It's possible that he didn't realize his foot was going to end up in her face. Most of the time when you kick a standing opponent, it's to force them to step back and give you room.

If he had "lost it", he would have gone in swinging wildly and trying to pull the girl off of his friend.
Not entirely true. What a person does in moments of high stress comes down to what the person has practiced. This is true in driving, shooting, and martial arts.

[Sipex]

If he's learning a martial art and if he's advanced in it, then yes, I would expect him to keep his cool. If he had "lost it", he would have gone in swinging wildly and trying to pull the girl off of his friend. The fact that he was able to pause for a correctly aimed punch, as they teach you in karate and similar, followed by a kick to the head, suggests he had not lost control of his actions. Anyone who does martial arts will tell you that trying to kick someone in the head takes a lot more energy, time and focus than a straightforward punch.

As my instructor once told me - "If you're having to use any of this stuff I'm teaching you, you're already doing something wrong."

So you're a behavioral expert then?

The OP wants help on what to do, not to get scolded (as he's already been by authority figures no doubt) by some random people who know only the bare minimum.

As nice as it is to get jollies out of making someone feel bad a ton of "should'ves" does nothing for a situation like this except maybe add a whole page of discussion on the tangent.

I'll tell you what, I got robbed once on a bus and reacted as best I could (Chased the guy until he pulled a knife on me). I caught up to the bus after that and tried to get a description or name of the guy who robbed me and there was one lady who's only contribution was "Oh, you should've called out or should've this or should've that."

Does nothing for the situation at all.

[The Succubus]

You are correct Sipex, I apologise to you and the OP.

I got a little wound up because although it's clear that this girl has been causing a lot of trouble for the OP, I wouldn't want to see the girl's life become any more unpleasant/difficult through the course of actions taken by the OP, least of which being teased about being a sociopath.

So, some helpful advice - the best thing I can suggest is a three way dialogue to get to the root of the problem once and for all. The OP, the girl and a neutral third party like a teacher. The thing is, if it's just 2 of the above, you won't get very far - as the OP found when he tried to discuss it with a teacher. I would be surprised if this girl hadn't tried talking to a teacher as well but it's only when the three of you are together that you'll make head way.

That's my last word on it - hope you can get something sorted. :smallsmile:

[Don Julio Anejo]

I actually suspected autism when I read the OP, didn't want to mention it since it might offend some people... then I got tangled up in a completely unrelated discussion on what does and does not constitute APD...

Here's the thing. A diplomatic dialogue is unlikely to have much effect. The person may simply not realize that hurting people is, well, hurting people. That's pretty much the main problem with the disorder - autists don't have the wiring for social norms and her violence is most likely a way of that manifesting itself. Like the stereotype of Aspies being rude? It's not a stereotype, they by definition don't see the need to say please/thank you/hello/goodbye/etc. To them it's just meaningless words that other people make you say for no good reason, which can come off as rude and impolite.

The same kind of thing can be a problem here, although it's very unusual in that autists are pretty much never violent.

So to reiterate... OP, find some way of getting her psychiatric help. The actual psychiatric kind, school counselors simply don't have the training to deal with issues like this.

While I tend to agree, you should be aware that that last shot you take - the one after your opponent is already on the ground - is no longer legally self-defense in most of the US. I understand that it's perfectly acceptable in Israel, though - one of the guys I go shooting with, after nailing his target (particularly those at close range) and saying "Two to drop" fires a shot into the ground while saying "And one to confirm".
In Russia cops have what's called a "warning shot to the head" :biggrin: Just kidding.

[Castaras]

Just to say that my previous post was a very broad generalisation - all the stuff you guys said are the exceptions. :smallsmile:


I disagree. Generally their mere presence is enough intimidation to make most unarmed assailants back down. That way there is only implied violence, and that doesn't leave a mark.

Yeah, any posession of knives or guns is illegal round here, so if you have a knife or gun you're screwed anyway.

[Keld Denar]

So, some helpful advice - the best thing I can suggest is a three way dialogue to get to the root of the problem once and for all. The OP, the girl and a neutral third party like a teacher. The thing is, if it's just 2 of the above, you won't get very far - as the OP found when he tried to discuss it with a teacher. I would be surprised if this girl hadn't tried talking to a teacher as well but it's only when the three of you are together that you'll make head way.

While I aggree that this is a great course of action, it may or may not be conclusive. If the person in fact is exhibiting true sociopathic tendancies (and again, I'm not a doctor OR an expert, and I don't even play one on TV), then A) she will lie compulsively and completely to get out of the situation, and B) she will immediately disregard any authority once that authority is no longer in direct connection. At this point, the whole 3-way talk becomes about as effective as swatting a grizzly bear on the nose with a newspaper.

Thats why I, and several others, have recommended legal action. They will give her a professional psychological evaluation to the degree that we can't, and if its determined that she is exhibiting true psychotic behavior instead of just persistant, inept pleas for attention, then steps will be taken to ensure that she gets the help she needs. I have enough faith in the Canadian healthcare and legal system that I don't doubt a word of this.

What she did was wrong. Period. She needs to be made to recognize this, and that that behavior is not acceptable in society. If she is unable to recognize this, then she needs to be treated, and in the mean time, kept in a place where she is no longer a danger to herself or others.

[Don Julio Anejo]

If the person in fact is exhibiting true sociopathic tendancies (snip)
The OP has already mentioned that she's autistic. That said, even from the description, she's not antisocial or psychopathic.

[Keld Denar]

The thing is, so have I and many of my friends. In all the years my school has had the Autism Resource Centre, never has any student randomly attacked someone. This leads me to suspect that there is more than just Autism messing her up.

Except for this...

[Don Julio Anejo]

Read my previous post (the long one). It's very unlikely that autists do anything violent, but it's entirely possible.

Any in any case, autism and psychopathy together in one person are pretty much impossible. Not to mention how psychopaths are the epitome of social awareness, albeit in a self-serving way. And just as unlikely to engage in violence unless it's specifically going to help them (aka instrumental violence).

[Castaras]

Autistic kids can get violent tendancies. Just like "normal" people, us Autistic kids are all different, but the ones that have stronger Autistic tendancies fall into the "Shy and reclusive" and the "Loud and violent" catagories, most of the time. 'Course, there's exceptions, and shy and reclusive can get "loud and violent" (Often wanted to... been good enough not to... except for one time I ended up slapping a guy that was pissing me off. Solved that problem perfectly.), but Autism and violence are not common, but not uncommon either.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Yeah, any posession of knives or guns is illegal round here, so if you have a knife or gun you're screwed anyway.
Gun laws, alright, but where is it illegal to own knives? Your kitchen has to have knives.

I'm not restricting this to school. No you can't have them in there, but in your own home no knives? I'm thinking there is somewhat of an exaggeration in there.

Edit: And tools are sharp as well.

[Quincunx]

You should restrict it to school, and then move to thinking of the ban in terms of age--it's teenagers that are subject to the blanket ban on carrying knives, seeing as they can just go to the kitchen and pick one up.

[Katana_Geldar]

Gun laws, alright, but where is it illegal to own knives? Your kitchen has to have knives.

I'm not restricting this to school. No you can't have them in there, but in your own home no knives? I'm thinking there is somewhat of an exaggeration in there.

Edit: And tools are sharp as well.

Here it is illegal to carry a knife if you are under 16.

And I can't believe this place has so many bleeding hearts.

[Moff Chumley]

I'd just like to express my discomfort with the DSM IV or DSM 5. They're simply not very good for describing the real world, in my opinion. :smallsigh:


self defense stops if the strike kills the attacker, if it dont kill, its self defense

That's now how it works, at all. But other people have expressed why.


Ask her out.

I'll bet she's a lot of fun. *wink*

:smallcool:

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

The fact that she has been diagnosed with Autism says a whole lot. Vorpalbob, there are many varying degrees of Autism, and just because you have been diagnosed with it yourself, doesn't mean squat. When I saw in high school I baby sat for a some siblings of a severely autistic kid. At times, he latched on to me (and one time bit me in the back), or takes swings or given me good whacks a time or two. But with a person that severely autistic, that often is the way they show being friendly or trying to interact with you. You scoffed at the idea of talking to her, and yet that might actually be something worth trying. She may be trying to be friends with you, but due to her degree of autism, the way she's going about it is the only way she can/knows how. A lot of problems of all sorts can be solved by just talking to someone, or better yet LISTENING TO THEM. In my experience, ignoring someone you don't understand just leads to worsening the situation instead of making it better (I just got done reading a book by the lead FBI hostage negotiator for the better part of 30 years, and you'd be amazed what you can accomplish by talking to people, rather than leading with an act of force/violence Ex: Waco). Her having been found to have autism (and a degree to which she may never be able to live alone at any point in her life), I don't think the police is the right way to go. Law enforcement and force in instances that involved the mentally ill, often turn out bad when they don't need to and should clearly be used as an absolute last resort.

At VT
Actually, in many places in the US, it is illegal to own/conceal a switchblade or even a butterfly knife.

[Anxe]

Stuff

Switchblades are especially illegal in schools in the US. This isn't the US, but Canada often has similar laws.

As for the body of your post, are you basically saying, "She's insane, so you should try talking to her?"

[HalfTangible]

Talking to her is a good idea (at least to make it clear her behavior is not acceptable) but do NOT, under any circumstances, be polite about it. Be as brutally honest as you can, she'll take it as honesty.

... i think i've said that already, actually


Switchblades are especially illegal in schools in the US. This isn't the US, but Canada often has similar laws.

Heh. In US schools, it counts as a weapon if you unbend a paperclip.

[Keld Denar]

Law enforcement and force in instances that involved the mentally ill, often turn out bad when they don't need to and should clearly be used as an absolute last resort.

No offense, but high schoolers aren't always equipped with the best tools to deal with someone like her. I know I'm not, and I'm a degree or two removed from high school. She needs help from professionals, doctors. Going through the law ensures that she gets that help, and can't refuse it. She's already proven that she is capable of inflicting harm on others, do you really want to put the OP in a position where he could be attacked again, and possibly forced to defend himself, bringing further wrath from the school upon him? Or worse? What if, while trying to keep her from hitting/biting/clawing him, he pushes her away from himself, and she falls down a flight of stairs and is seriously hurt? Or if the OP himself is seriously harmed? Confrontation is NOT the answer here. If she wasn't violent, it would be a different situation. Unfortunately, she's proven herself to be violent, I wouldn't take any more chances if I were him.

No, this is a situation best delt with by others, IMO. Its too risky and/or dangerous for the OP to handle on his own.

[Inhuman Bot]

Ask her out.

I'll bet she's a lot of fun. *wink*

You're the best poster.

[Quincunx]

It's easy. Does the OP have the compassion to sit down, shut up, and listen?


Even during the very few times she acts like a human being, we try to avoid talking to her at all costs. Teachers and others I have spoken with about her say she might be trying to become friends with us. Is there a more ridiculous concept? :smallannoyed:

In this case, no he doesn't, and should defer the problem to the authorities, and in this case the school authorities have already been proven ineffective on this "don't assault people in the hallways" point.

Just in case you're wondering, Vorpalbob, you were being punished for snubbing her even when she tried to open negotiations at your level, and since you hit her twice you are still due for one more assault--from her perspective, as I see it. As your method of "self-defense" involves striking back, you will never achieve parity. She'll whack you'll whack her. If you want her to stop, when that next attack comes you'll need to derail the plot by doing something not in the fight-script. Since you're determined to justify yourself to us, why not justify yourself to her, and scream in her ear, "Are you TRYING to make enemies out of us?!?!?!" with all the high dudgeon you can muster. Use the tactics of bullying and shame.

[pendell]

Gun laws, alright, but where is it illegal to own knives? Your kitchen has to have knives.

I'm not restricting this to school. No you can't have them in there, but in your own home no knives? I'm thinking there is somewhat of an exaggeration in there.

Edit: And tools are sharp as well.

It may not be illegal to own a knife and carry it outside of school, but schools typically have a 'no firearms or knives' clause in their code of conduct. Violating this code is grounds for suspension or expulsion.

Full disclosure: When I was in my teens I carried a knife at school for several years and didn't for the last year. I learned that I could defend myself far better with attitude than I ever could with metal. The metal did not improve my physical safety, but it DID get me suspended when I was caught with it by the school teachers.

My last year defense was a combination of being aware of my surroundings, of avoiding tactically dangerous situations, and an absolute willingness to fight anywhere, anytime, against any odds. I made it plain that I was crazy and simply didn't care that I was going to lose -- that I would still cause as much damage as I could even as I went down. I faced down four jocks from the football squad that way, and they backed off and left me alone. Word got around, and I never had another physical confrontation again for the duration of my high school career.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Xiander]

I know i am late to the beat, but ifeel i should at least try to add a point.

In my experience, people do not search out and harass other people (be they groups or individuals) with the end goal of annoying them or harming them. There is always a further motive. Often that can be to show of to someone, which seems out in this case. Revenge might be an answer, but unless she has imagined a slight and blown it out of proportion that seems out too.

In my humble oppinion you are far to quick in dismissing the idea that she wants friends. I have more than once seen socially inept people behaving in both annoying and aggresive way thowards people they actually wanted to befriend or impress.

The best example was one of my best friends in grade school. When he transferred to my school he was generally percieved as an outsider and something of a loon due to his temper problems. He had a background of being a social outsider and his go to responce was lashing out.
At the time i made a habit of spending my recesses playing vaguely roleplay like games with a bunch of other kids. And at some point he started following us, repeatedly breaking up the game or interfearing in some way, forexample by chasing one of the younger players around. Needless to say it was rather annoying. I solved the problem by asking if he wanted to join the game.

Morale: Irritating or disrupting behaviour does not necesarily mean that the acting person has grudge or wants to pick a fight. Many times socially akward people will grab for attention by what ever means they can imagine, this includes violence.

I am not telling you to go make friends with her, i am simply telling you that the concept of her wanting to make friends is not rediculous. In fact it was my first intution about the case upon reading the first few paragraphs of the original post.
Admittedly however, actually breaking the shell and making her friendly instead of disruptive is not something easily done. And on top of that i may be dead wrong, she may just hate you for no good reason. Ignoring and avoiding her is not going to make her any friendlier though, so you have to either find a way to get through to her, or find a way to get her out of your hair (see multiple posts about calling the police).

[pendell]

That may or may not be, but if a person who wants to make friends is being disruptive and is physically attacking other students, that person has problems best addressed by professionals and mature adults. It's not a student's job to try to sort her issues out and play psychiatrist and what not. The best thing to do is get her the help she needs and stay away from her until it's straightened out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Frozen_Feet]

In my experience, people do not search out and harass other people (be they groups or individuals) with the end goal of annoying them or harming them.


Oooh! What strange world do you live in and how do I get there?

Let's face it - some people are just jerks. They get their kicks out of bullying other people. They don't need any logical reason or reward for dickery, because watching other people squirm is good enough. Some people are out to make your life hell just because they think it's fun, or becaue they think you won't mind.

My mind's been blown by the extent of skullduggery that sometimes exists between people who are ostensibly friends with each other. If you're really stalked by someone who wants to harm you, don't expect there to be any grand reason to the bullying; there might not be one.

[Xiander]

That may or may not be, but if a person who wants to make friends is being disruptive and is physically attacking other students, that person has problems best addressed by professionals and mature adults. It's not a student's job to try to sort her issues out and play psychiatrist and what not. The best thing to do is get her the help she needs and stay away from her until it's straightened out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I agree, i actually tried to say directly that i was not trying force the OP to make friends, but merely trying to disuade him from percieving the notion of her trying to make frinds as ridiculous, because it is not.


Oooh! What strange world do you live in and how do I get there?

Let's face it - some people are just jerks. They get their kicks out of bullying other people. They don't need any logical reason or reward for dickery, because watching other people squirm is good enough. Some people are out to make your life hell just because they think it's fun, or becaue they think you won't mind.

My mind's been blown by the extent of skullduggery that sometimes exists between people who are ostensibly friends with each other. If you're really stalked by someone who wants to harm you, don't expect there to be any grand reason to the bullying; there might not be one.

Well, what i tried to say is that people do not beat you up to beat you up. Maybe they do it because it makes them happy, or gives them selfrespect. maybe its something else, but the action does not carry the motive within it.
And furthe, people who do stuff like this sometimes have surprising motives. Like trying to make friends.

These motives are explicitly not logical. No one believes that beating someone up logically leads to them becomming your friend, but still some people grabs for attention through such actions.


I am not saying this person does not need professional help, i am simply commenting on the attitude of the OP thowards the concept of this girl looking for friendship.

[Kcalehc]

Talking to her is a good idea (at least to make it clear her behavior is not acceptable) but do NOT, under any circumstances, be polite about it. Be as brutally honest as you can, she'll take it as honesty.



I'm not quite sure that 'honest' and 'polite' are mutually exclusive (as several other posters have also suggested). And being deliberately impolite is most certainly not taking the moral high ground. Perhaps the word people are looking for is 'impartial,' despite your vested interest in the outcome of any discussion, keep your tone and language at an even level and attempt to not be emotional.

[blackfox]

At VT
Actually, in many places in the US, it is illegal to own/conceal a switchblade or even a butterfly knife.Assisted-open knives are generally legal to carry in the US. Spring-assist knives vary in legality by state. Switchblades are almost universally illegal. Concealed knives vary by state, but IIRC almost everywhere, 'clip on outside of pocket' counts as 'unconcealed.'

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

No offense, but high schoolers aren't always equipped with the best tools to deal with someone like her. I know I'm not, and I'm a degree or two removed from high school. She needs help from professionals, doctors. Going through the law ensures that she gets that help, and can't refuse it...

I"m not saying going through proper channels and using authorities of some sort isn't the way to go. But, I get the impression from many in this thread who have jumped on the police bandwagon think this girl needs to be arrested and put in jail for some of her more violent actions. What I was trying to get at is that in dealing with someone who has a mental illness, locking them up and throwing away the key because they aren't acting inside the social norm is not the way to go about it. I would have thought society beyond lumping all with a mental illness as crazy, deranged, harmful to everything. Law enforcement and jail is not the way to go about this case I believe. Psychiatric help or something along those lines yes, but imprisonment like a common criminal, no. Again, talking generally is a wise thing to do.

I still think the approach of maybe talking to her a little when she approaches them in the hallway at school instead of ignoring her or fleeing might actually prove to be constructive. Granted it may not, but then again it might too. Much more so than just ignoring the problem all together.

[HalfTangible]

I'm not quite sure that 'honest' and 'polite' are mutually exclusive (as several other posters have also suggested).

No but when someone is autistic or assumes the worst in people (mostly the latter) there's a pretty good chance they see it that way.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Or, further, even if they aren't arguing that she should be arrested and put in jail for her actions, they neglect the very real possibility that she would be. Then again, I have had literally no positive experiences with the police in the course of my entire life, so perhaps I'm biased, but I really do not imagine they will help anyone.

One can be polite and quite honest.

[Keld Denar]

But, I get the impression from many in this thread who have jumped on the police bandwagon think this girl needs to be arrested and put in jail for some of her more violent actions.

Arrested, yes. Jailed, no. There are different results that can occur from an arrest. Jail is probably the most common, but state enforced rehab and/or counceling is another very valid outcome, one which I would be very much in favor of. Regardless of outcome, I still wouldn't encourage the OP to take matters into his own hands. Its not a high schooler's job to deal with this issue. He doesn't have the experience, training, or authority to give her the help it sounds like she needs.

[HalfTangible]

One can be polite and quite honest.

The point is that it might not be viewed that way. I know i didn't.

[Anxe]

Arrested, yes. Jailed, no. There are different results that can occur from an arrest. Jail is probably the most common, but state enforced rehab and/or counceling is another very valid outcome, one which I would be very much in favor of. Regardless of outcome, I still wouldn't encourage the OP to take matters into his own hands. Its not a high schooler's job to deal with this issue. He doesn't have the experience, training, or authority to give her the help it sounds like she needs.

Additionally, in most states in the US the victim of a crime can request a certain punishment. Usually the state will honor the requested punishment. Vorpalbob could request counseling instead of jail time if the same system is in place in Canada.

[Irbis]

I'm going to have to call into question your method of self defense here. I don't know what form of martial arts you study or what your instructor has told you but punching someone in the head followed by kicking them in the head doesn't strike me as "defensive". It strikes me as "this person has been getting on my nerves and so I'm going to whale on them and then later claim it was self defense." Almost all martial arts I know of have various means of holds and subjugation techniques. The first punch could be classed as self defence. The kick in the face, definitely not.

This. So much this. The amount of http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/misc/Male.gif jingoism in this thread is simply... unnerving :smallmad:

And I say this as a male.

You know, leaving matter of her behaviour aside for a moment, what we have here is a martial artist who hit a girl in the head. Twice. Which was made worse by the fact that you were not alone. Seriously, was a frail girl a threat so great you had to resort to potentially lethal force without even trying to restrain her to force her to calm down?

I know if I were alone this would be my first instinct to do, much less if I had support of others. Against a male, too, unless he was enough danger to warrant caution.

You know, I had a friend attacked once by someone larger than us. Guess what, two guys can easily hold even someone stronger than they are, easily. We managed to force him to calm down and leave when we threatened to shout for a witness.

But then again, I lived in jurisdictions where being martial artist and using that in "self defence" against someone weaker than you is practically equal with responding with knife or firearm, and is labelled "disproportionate response". It could have landed you in a jail, even.

Calling police as all well and good, but considering you might ruin multiple people's lives by this, I'd echo others asking for diplomatic measures first, talking to her sister, asking her to talk with her parents if needed. Calling police is like lobbing a primed grenade into the room, you never know who it might hit.

[Templarkommando]

There are a couple of problems you're looking at. If she has been officially diagnosed by a doctor, then it's really pretty likely that she has what is called an Individual Education Plan (IEP). There are some students that legitimately need an IEP, and she may be one of them, but the problem is that it may make it difficult for teachers to punish her for the ridiculous things that she does. Furthermore, there's not really a good way of finding out what is in her IEP unless you are on the faculty at your school.

However, if all teachers are reluctant to deal with the problems that she causes, it could be a pretty good indication that there are some legal agreements that are keeping teachers from dealing with her behavior problems. Another possibility, is that her parents won't do a thing about anything short of direct evidence because their "snowflake" is such a "perfect angel."

You're really left with a few options. Some of which have been mentioned, but here's what I would suggest:

1. When she behaves like a sane person, pay attention to her - talk to her or laugh at her jokes etc. When she starts acting like a crazy person, don't pay attention to her - just talk with your buddies like nothing is happening. This does a couple of things. It rewards her for acting sanely, and it deprives her of an apparent need when she isn't. Don't let her know this is what you're doing, or you might undermine yourself.

2. Pay attention to what she does when the teachers do punish her. This can give you a few ideas as to what her IEP says as to how she can be punished, so you know what to tell teachers about when she is acting crazy.

3. Sometimes just making your feelings on her behavior known will solve the problem. If she starts to think of you as a friend just saying "look, I really don't like it when you do X." Sometimes people do things because they don't know otherwise, and this would be a way to keep her informed.

Realistically, sometimes people just need a friend. If everyone avoids her like the plague, it seems likely that she has real difficulty making and keeping friends. There are a big number of reasons for why people do this, and you'll just have to watch, and if you can help her improve her social skills, hey you've done a good deed for the day.

On the other hand, she may just be a spoiled brat. If this happens to be the case, just shut down reacting to her. Sometimes even negative attention fulfills the need of attention, and when you shut that down she'll go somewhere else looking for attention.

That's my suggestion.

[HalfTangible]

This. So much this. The amount of http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/misc/Male.gif jingoism in this thread is simply... unnerving :smallmad:

And I say this as a male.

You know, leaving matter of her behaviour aside for a moment, what we have here is a martial artist who hit a girl in the head. Twice. Which was made worse by the fact that you were not alone. Seriously, was a frail girl a threat so great you had to resort to potentially lethal force without even trying to restrain her to force her to calm down?

I know if I were alone this would be my first instinct to do, much less if I had support of others. Against a male, too, unless he was enough danger to warrant caution.

You know, I had a friend attacked once by someone larger than us. Guess what, two guys can easily hold even someone stronger than they are, easily. We managed to force him to calm down and leave when we threatened to shout for a witness.

But then again, I lived in jurisdictions where being martial artist and using that in "self defence" against someone weaker than you is practically equal with responding with knife or firearm, and is labelled "disproportionate response". It could have landed you in a jail, even.

Calling police as all well and good, but considering you might ruin multiple people's lives by this, I'd echo others asking for diplomatic measures first, talking to her sister, asking her to talk with her parents if needed. Calling police is like lobbing a primed grenade into the room, you never know who it might hit.

The fact that she's a girl has WHAT to do with frailty, exactly? :smallconfused:

She was attacking him, his friend either wouldn't help, couldn't help, or didn't want to get in trouble. The girl attacked with little (if any) provocation, and intended to seriously harm him. Immobilization, while an option, probably didn't even occur to him at the time. What did occur was 'get her the f*** away from me!'.

Also: Lethal? :smallannoyed: Really? Painful, yes, but if it didn't pierce and he didn't hit the temple, it wouldn't kill her.

[Irbis]

The fact that she's a girl has WHAT to do with frailty, exactly? :smallconfused:

That she has not two but three handicaps against someone who is fit martial arts practiser? :smallconfused:


She was attacking him, his friend either wouldn't help, couldn't help, or didn't want to get in trouble. The girl attacked with little (if any) provocation, and intended to seriously harm him. Immobilization, while an option, probably didn't even occur to him at the time. What did occur was 'get her the f*** away from me!'.

Harm him. Oh, please. Ruffling his shirt, maybe. You know what is first rule of self-defence? The stronger side is always expected to act more responsibly.

Let's face it, attacking back a girl who has no comparable training, weapon or strength to harm someone is not acting responsibly. Hell, if that kick to the head was any indication of height difference, she would have problems attacking his face, about the only area warranting response other than parrying eventual blows.

Seriously, I never meet girl or woman (save for a few skilled in martial arts) that would have any chance in combat with fit man, much less having all sorts of advantages on her. Sorry, one scratch or tiny bruise is not harm. I do have a few faults in my physical condition, yet I'm perfectly convinced I can easily deal with any girl/woman without unusual advantages (before someone constructs a scenario involving AK-47s or broken glass bottles) and I expect any fit man to have the same.

I can buy he acted mechanically on the first though, but that fight was pretty prolonged and he is supposed to train combat arts. Escalating to that degree is first thing in any civilian martial arts training they specifically forbid.


Also: Lethal? :smallannoyed: Really? Painful, yes, but if it didn't pierce and he didn't hit the temple, it wouldn't kill her.

This is real life, not Hollywood. Knocking someone out with tap doesn't work. Here, blows to the head cause concussion, brain trauma, potential blood clots, swelling of protective tissues - hell, even if you knock her out, chances are she will simply fall and break her skull/neck on the floor. There are literally dozens of ways you can make someone crippled for life or kill him.

And unlike D&D, there are no magical spells bringing them back.

[HalfTangible]

I have met women who can break bones, knock men unconscious and bleed someone enough that he starts singing showtunes (ok, that last one was exageration for effect but you get the point) And at least six of them were NOT martial artists. Being a woman is NOT a handicap and i'm shocked you believe it is.

Moreover, i got the impression the fight lasted a few seconds: she attacks, he retaliates with two blows. That's not even close to 'prolonged'.

Where i'm from, 'lethal' means 'will die in two minutes or less'. What you're describing is 'harmful'.

[Keld Denar]

This is real life, not Hollywood.

Exactly. Real life. Real life where people could hurt you. What if she had a pen gripped in her hand when she pounded on him? What if it pierced a soft spot between ribs and punctured a lung? How do you know exactly how long he had to size up the situation with a cool head, assess exactly what her mode of attack was, and take appropriate countermeasures? And what makes you think he even has enough martial arts training to do so? You don't. He said he's had some. I doubt he's the second coming of Bruce Lee. Again, it sounded reflexive. Its better to be safe than sorry. I don't care who you are, if you attack me, I'm gonna put my own life above yours. You forfeit your right to not get a concussion when you jump on my back and pound me with your fists.

Yea, proportionate response is all well and good and whatnot, but sometimes you don't exactly have the time to sit back and do the math. Sometimes you catch a blur out of the corner of your eye, hear scuffling behind you, whatever, and you react, and that reaction saves your life/health/whatever.

I'm tired of people advocating putting other people's personal safety above their own when confronted. They are attacking you. They had a choice whether or not to attack you, and they chose to attack. That gives up their right to a non-violent confrontation right there. Responding in a lesser manner is dangerous, and in some cases will put you in the hospital or the morgue.

Regardless, calling the cops on her isn't gonna ruin her life. She needs help. Period. A high schooler is probably not equipped with the tools needed to help her. Yea, she might have to do time in a correctional facility for mentally ill people, if deemed appropriate by the legal system, but thats not a bad thing. It forces her to get help resolving her issues so that she can rejoin society as a non-violent, contributing member so nobody else has to worry about her flipping out and beating them, or worse.

EDIT: OP, have you decided on a course of action yet? Keep us posted, I'm curious.

[ko_sct]

I have met women who can break bones, knock men unconscious and bleed someone enough that he starts singing showtunes (ok, that last one was exageration for effect but you get the point) And at least six of them were NOT martial artists. Being a woman is NOT a handicap and i'm shocked you believe it is.

True, I remember a girl I knew that used to make trees fall whit her bare hands when she was angry, she would pick one and then hit it whit an old branch until she heard the roots snap and then she would push the tree until it fell down. She was 13.

(ok ok, it was dead trees, but still, I’m pretty sure she would have stood a fair chance in a fight with lot of adult guys)


Small childhood stories aside, I wanted to chip in to mention two things.

1) Please, just please, avoid calling her a sociopath, I know, I know, she's causing you a lot of trouble and your mad, but calling her that will change nothing. I was personally labeled as a sociopath when I was a little kid, and let me tell you; it changes nothing and just hurt people. (Thinking about it, I think the "psy" that labeled me as such had no formal education in psychology actually.... hum...)


2) Second thing, I was wondering if I was the one that saw a reason behind her attack beside random murderous rage?


Myself and my friend Alex were sitting in front of my locker, eating lunch and talking. She came and got something out of her locker, which is a few down from mine. We completely ignored her, not even looking her way. A few moments later, she had walked over and was attacking Alex. She was punching him in the back and screaming nonsense into his ear. He yelled at her to stop, that he had done absolutely nothing to provoke her, but she would not. I got up to intervene. I grabbed her arm, and she bit me.

See, there's this girl trying (awkwardly) to fit in a group, joining them for lunch and all that. She's thinking she's making progress, they aren't really friend or some such, but still, there's some slight progress there.
Then the next day she walk by those two guys and do they say hello ? nop. Do they nod as she pass, simply acknowledging that she's there ? nop. They look at her and then actively try to ignore her. She get mad, can't control it and attack them (ok ok, not the best course of action)

So, yeah, I'm totally randomly guessing, but that's really the impression I got from reading your story and if I had to guess what was going on in her head, I would guess that she's a young teenager suffering from being rejected by her peer and angry at everything that has no idea how to control her temper.

So yeah, just my 2 cents......

Edit; minor errors, still probably full of errors seeing as its 2am

[Cerlis]

There is no excuse

unless shes a troubled sociopath who doesnt know how to deal with the fact that her brain is messed up.


The reason why troubled people never get better is cus people expect em to act like the mature sensible people that they are not. And when a non normal person doesnt act normally they push them to the side of society and pretend they dont exsist

[Ialdabaoth]

The reason why troubled people never get better is cus people expect em to act like the mature sensible people that they are not. And when a non normal person doesnt act normally they push them to the side of society and pretend they dont exsist

...which certainly takes care of the problem. It establishes a clear delineation between those whom we have decided "matter", and those whom we have decided "don't matter", and ensures that those who "don't matter" have no way of forcing us to acknowledge their wants and needs. Everyone the culture cares about wins, and everyone who loses, the culture doesn't have to care about!

[Vorpalbob]

stuff about martial arts

I find it kind of silly how some of you think I'm stronger than her. :smalltongue:

In reality, I stagger when I pick up my four-year old sister. I have no upper body strength whatsoever. This is why I avoid grappling at all costs. I gave up fencing because no matter how good my sword position was, I would just be overpowered and stabbed in the head (thank goodness for helmets).

The only reason I didn't go for a kick right away is because I wanted to warn her off, and because I was kneeling at the time.

I have tried working out many times. It runs in my family that the males are taller (I'm 6' 2") but weaker than the females (my mother is 5' 6", but has hurled grown men across rooms).

Needless to say, it depresses me that I will never be able to sweep my girl off her feet. :smallfrown:

[Keld Denar]

Except when the person is dangerous to themselves and others, and has already demonstrated that danger.

Oh, and the fact that the person isn't truely pushed aside, but rather given treatment, professional care, in the hopes that they will be able to again rejoin society as a functioning, non-violent, contributing member.

EDIT: Have you decided what course of action you plan on taking?

[KoboldRevenge]

Through my experience with sociopaths the only thing you can do is kill them before they kill us!:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

No not really but in the case that the teacher and admin are not EVER effective, (which is almost always) you should get your man chucking Mom in there if there's anyone more protective it be mothers and they will even pursue legal action so... Cha ching! Hahaha!

[Sipex]

This is why you don't make giant generalisations on the internet, because you'll almost always be wrong.

edit: I realise this is a giant generalisation.

[The Succubus]

Needless to say, it depresses me that I will never be able to sweep my girl off her feet. :smallfrown:

To derail ever so slightly, go swimming together, then you'll be able to carry your lovely lady in your arms - works like a charm, trust me. :smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

MasamuneSSX is absolutely right. When Susan and I go swimming together, there's nothing quite like being weightless together.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tychris1]

Meh, i'm not much of a help in the area of handling people with mental issues (Unless it's ADHD, I can handle those guys) but if what everybody else says doesn't work then do what I always do; Hide out.

She following you around and going where you sit? Blend into the crowd, crouch often, and always sit somewhere different or (If your school is like mine) go to teachers classes to finish up homework or projects. Make more A** pulls then Startrek if it means you can hide away for atleast a week or two. By then she'll have lost interest and done the same thing to someone else. Sure it's mean but it's like giving someone else a plauge so you don't have to suffer.