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SylvanPrincess
2011-01-05, 06:47 PM
still considering warlock for a build, but i want to go the good route with it. i like the enlightened spirit (cm 61), but it doesnt advance invocations. i like hellfire warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) but want to drop my connections with the underworld.

so i talked to my dm, and he made a holyfire warlock, essentially the same as the hellfire, but with holy fire from heaven instead of hellfire. the fluff makes it playable now for me lol. just have to have an easy way to repair ability damage, and we're golden.

im wondering, is there an eldritch psion theurge?

warlock 13/enlightened spirit 4/holyfire warlock 3 might be good, but no way to repair ability damage. would have 9d6 eldritch blast +6d6 holyfire blast. enlightened spirits' tongues ability would let you qualify for the holyfire warlock's language req (which would probably be the opposite of abyssal.)

i dont know, thoughts?

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 06:49 PM
.
so i talked to my dm, and he made a holyfire warlock, essentially the same as the hellfire, but with holy fire from heaven instead of hellfire. the fluff makes it playable now for me lol. just have to have an easy way to repair ability damage, and we're golden.

Dresden Files calls it "Soulfire"- that might do if "holyfire" seems off.

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 06:51 PM
The opposite of Abyssal is Celestial. Ironically, Chaotic and Lawful outsides of the [Evil] persuasion speak different languages, but all of the good ones speak the same.

You might want to look at a path that allows you to heal your Con damage. The 1 level Binder dip for Nabrius is most common, but Shape Soulmeld + something that gives you Essentia (race, class, whatever) for Strongheart Vest also works.

AslanCross
2011-01-05, 06:56 PM
As a warlock, you get UMD. A wand of lesser restoration could be a substitute while you wait to qualify for a class feature.

Psyren
2011-01-05, 07:00 PM
im wondering, is there an eldritch psion theurge?


Cerebremancer can actually progress invocations; the tricky part is qualifying, however.

SylvanPrincess
2011-01-05, 07:03 PM
Dresden Files calls it "Soulfire"- that might do if "holyfire" seems off.
word! perfect:)


The opposite of Abyssal is Celestial. Ironically, Chaotic and Lawful outsides of the [Evil] persuasion speak different languages, but all of the good ones speak the same.

You might want to look at a path that allows you to heal your Con damage. The 1 level Binder dip for Nabrius is most common, but Shape Soulmeld + something that gives you Essentia (race, class, whatever) for Strongheart Vest also works.
binder as in nar demon binder?
thanks for clearing up my languages :) def need something to heal con damage which is why i was leaning toward psionics, but there just inst anything compatible


As a warlock, you get UMD. A wand of lesser restoration could be a substitute while you wait to qualify for a class feature.
very true, good point, wouldnt have to worry about it till later levels too, when i can actually be a soulfire warlock


Cerebremancer can actually progress invocations; the tricky part is qualifying, however.
yeah, i just dont see how, because of the spell level req. :sadface:

forgot to mention i will be a non la version of the aasimar, with a dm ruled +2 to cha(or wis), -2 to con. while it seems counter to the soulfire warlock, i think it is still workable

Keld Denar
2011-01-05, 07:04 PM
Binder as in Tome of Magic. Check it out, its a great class 1-20, but it also makes amazing dips for grabing low level vestiges with tons of fun abilities!

SylvanPrincess
2011-01-05, 07:08 PM
Binder as in Tome of Magic. Check it out, its a great class 1-20, but it also makes amazing dips for grabing low level vestiges with tons of fun abilities!

hmmm, i dont have it, going to look for the class online

MammonAzrael
2011-01-05, 07:22 PM
You can also take that feat Shape Soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum (pg 40) which allows you to shape a single soulmeld. Select the soulmeld Strongheart Vest (pg 89), it reduces any ability damage you would take by one.

Also, why are you taking the nerfed lesser aasimar? for flavor, or the Cha bonus? If for flavor then fine, but if you're taking it for for the Cha bonus...well, Warlocks really don't care that much about Cha unless you're focusing on Invocations that require saves. And seeing as how you'll be focusing on Soulfire...doesn't sound like it. You could also consider the Hellbred race, found in the same book as Hellfire Warlock, Fiendish Codex II.

JBento
2011-01-05, 07:31 PM
Wasn't there an argument about whether Strongheart Vest allowed you to use hellfire or not? Or am I mixing it up with something else?:smallredface:

Naberius, however, is a sure-fire way to solve the problem - burn 1 Con this round, get it again on the next round, and damage away. Also, the rest of Nabby's abilities are quite fun, too :smallsmile:

EDIT: Rereading MammonAzrael's post, it seems that, yes, it was the Strongheart Vest that had been discussed. Was it ever resolved, or do we keep interpreting it however the DM feels like it?

Elfin
2011-01-05, 07:37 PM
forgot to mention i will be a non la version of the aasimar, with a dm ruled +2 to cha(or wis), -2 to con. while it seems counter to the soulfire warlock, i think it is still workable

There's actually already one - the lesser aasimar in Player's Guide to Faerun.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-05, 07:38 PM
Wasn't there an argument about whether Strongheart Vest allowed you to use hellfire or not? Or am I mixing it up with something else?:smallredface:

Naberius, however, is a sure-fire way to solve the problem - burn 1 Con this round, get it again on the next round, and damage away. Also, the rest of Nabby's abilities are quite fun, too :smallsmile:

This is true, there are some people who believe that it does not work. The arguement is essentially that since you aren't taking the 1 Con damage you can't use Hellfire Blast. Which I think is ridiculous. The ability says:

...if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
So this asks two simple questions of your Strongheart Vest-using character:

Does he have a Constitution score? Yes.
Is he immune to Constitution damage? No.

Therefore the soulmeld works just fine with Hellfire Blast. Unless someone can find an errata or CustServ answer that says otherwise. Even from a flavor perspective it works, as you're feeding other's soul energy to power your blasts...it makes you even more evil. And in your case the soulmeld can be a manifestation of your own soul, so its just as groovy.

Naberius works unquestionably, which is why I think it is a more common answer to this issue. And sometimes it is the better choice. It depends on if a class dip is better for you than the feat investment, and if Binder fits into your character concept.


There's actually already one - the lesser aasimar in Player's Guide to Faerun.

Page 191. :smallsmile: They can be easy to overlook.


EDIT: Also, I have a homebrewed Enlightened Spirit PrC in my sig if you're interested. :smallsmile:

SylvanPrincess
2011-01-05, 09:45 PM
There's actually already one - the lesser aasimar in Player's Guide to Faerun.

yeah i know, but it has plus to 2 stats, and no minuses, so he nerfed it

bartman
2011-01-05, 10:00 PM
In the Magic Item Compendium, page 173, there is a "Rod of Bodily Restoration, for 3100 gp. 3 charges per day, so you do not have to worry about running out when your 50 charges are up like with a wand, lets you cure either 4,6,or 8 of any one body stat OR 2,4,6 of all 3 body stats for 1, 2 or 3 charges respectively. I used it to pretty good effect when I had my hellfire warlock, and it lets you get away from the binder/soulmeld argument altogether. Plus, and I could be wrong here, but my group plays with no UMD rolls for things like rods or magic items, so you may not need to make a roll to use it.

SylvanPrincess
2011-01-05, 11:52 PM
In the Magic Item Compendium, page 173, there is a "Rod of Bodily Restoration, for 3100 gp. 3 charges per day, so you do not have to worry about running out when your 50 charges are up like with a wand, lets you cure either 4,6,or 8 of any one body stat OR 2,4,6 of all 3 body stats for 1, 2 or 3 charges respectively. I used it to pretty good effect when I had my hellfire warlock, and it lets you get away from the binder/soulmeld argument altogether. Plus, and I could be wrong here, but my group plays with no UMD rolls for things like rods or magic items, so you may not need to make a roll to use it.

PERFECT! so how do invocations rate to arcane spells? i know theyre not the same power level, but how great are they?

AslanCross
2011-01-06, 12:06 AM
PERFECT! so how do invocations rate to arcane spells? i know theyre not the same power level, but how great are they?

Some of them are pretty awesome. Chilling Tentacles, for example, is an improved version of Black Tentacles, but only available at higher levels.

The 24-hour self buffs are also good.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-06, 12:16 AM
Some of them are pretty awesome. Chilling Tentacles, for example, is an improved version of Black Tentacles, but only available at higher levels.

The 24-hour self buffs are also good.

Yes, chilling tentacles is exquisite. That and Noxious blast should allow you to disable your enemies pretty effectively. Fell flight is great (essentially perma-flight), as is See the unseen (constant darkvision and see invisibility). Vitriolic blast allows you to completely ignore spell resistance, as well as deal successive damage. Dark discorporation makes you immune to physical damage, and should greatly enhance your touch AC. Dark foresight is a very powerful ability (unless your DM is some kind of raging arse-pirate), and allows you to commune telepathically with all your buddies. Etc etc.

Edit: Ah, another really cool one, from Cityscape I think, is Devil's whispers; it's like suggestion, but after doing whatever you suggested the person thinks that it was completely their idea.

SylvanPrincess
2011-01-06, 12:35 AM
Yes, chilling tentacles is exquisite. That and Noxious blast should allow you to disable your enemies pretty effectively. Fell flight is great (essentially perma-flight), as is See the unseen (constant darkvision and see invisibility). Vitriolic blast allows you to completely ignore spell resistance, as well as deal successive damage. Dark discorporation makes you immune to physical damage, and should greatly enhance your touch AC. Dark foresight is a very powerful ability (unless your DM is some kind of raging arse-pirate), and allows you to commune telepathically with all your buddies. Etc etc.

ok, good, was worried id be underpowered as the arcane user in the group


Edit: Ah, another really cool one, from Cityscape I think, is Devil's whispers; it's like suggestion, but after doing whatever you suggested the person thinks that it was completely their idea.
sweet :) inception!

JBento
2011-01-06, 06:27 AM
If there's even the hint of you being underpowered DO NOT take Dark Discorporation! As written, it's bad. Really bad. Monk bad, and perhaps worse.

You can only use move actions, so you can do nothing but fly around, AoEs deal 50% more damage, and there's no way to get rid of it (dismissing an invocation is a standard action), which means that you're stuck as a bunch of flying bats that can do nothing for the rest of the day.

Also, Dark invocatios are at a Premium.

The "get out" invocation of choice is the one that gets you dimension door while leaving an image of you behind.

Try to get your hands on Dragon Magic - plenty of awesome invocations there, including an at-will wall of force-like thingy (if it's destroyed you get damage, but frankly, there are few things short of disintegrate that can bring it down, and if a disintegrate is coming around, better the wall than you).

If there's someone else in your party with an at-will dispellable effect, consider the invocation that mimicks greater dispel and heals you - otherwise, avoid it - it's touch range, and, unless you're going glaivelock, that is a Bad Thing(TM).

Reaving Dispel is awesome, but only worth it at lower levels - since your casting lvl gets maxed, past double digits you're not really going to dispel anything. There's a break enchantment invocation (also, IIRC, in Dragon Magic) that I think you can use as greater dispel...

I also like the inovation that turns you into a Bezekira (Hellcat), simply because Bezekira's are awesome :smallbiggrin:

true_shinken
2011-01-06, 06:35 AM
This is true, there are some people who believe that it does not work. The arguement is essentially that since you aren't taking the 1 Con damage you can't use Hellfire Blast. Which I think is ridiculous.
No, the ability basically says 'You can't negate this damage. Not ever. No, not even then.' And guess what you are negating the damage, so it doesn't work.
Even if RAW is fuzzy here, RAI is so crystal clear that the only argument that could be made is that one about 'feeding them with the eternal souls of incarnum' and even that falls to pieces because hell wants your soul specifically.
It's been discussed to hell and it always comes down to this - DM's call. RAI is so crystal clear that contesting a DM that rules against it will always reek of munchkinery to me.

Also, Sylvan - do you want to be a melee warlock? We're the coolest guys in the playground and we have the best parties. Also, loads and loads of untyped damage.:smallbiggrin: (check the link in my sig)

JBento
2011-01-06, 08:24 AM
RAW isn't fuzzy - it clearly states that you can't use HFB if you're immune to Con damage, not THIS Con dmg, and therefore, the Vest flies.

I agree with you on RAI, though - Hell made a deal for YOUR vitality (it doesn't actually have any authority on other creatures' life force, even if you're feeding it directly into Mephistopheles' power intake valve), and if you don't pay, you don't get the goods.

dsmiles
2011-01-06, 08:39 AM
Also, Sylvan - do you want to be a melee warlock? We're the coolest guys in the playground and we have the best parties. Also, loads and loads of untyped damage.:smallbiggrin: (check the link in my sig)
And cookies. Come for the untyped damage, stay for the cookies.

Hyfigh
2011-01-06, 09:12 AM
Supernatural Transformation, a feat in Savage Species, turns a Sp into an Su. Using this wisely will allow you to turn some of your invocations and/or blasts into Su's. Removing SR as defense without having to take Vitriolic Blast isn't that bad an idea. Taking it for Noxious Blast certainly isn't anything to scoff at.

Eldan
2011-01-06, 09:13 AM
The opposite of Abyssal is Celestial. Ironically, Chaotic and Lawful outsides of the [Evil] persuasion speak different languages, but all of the good ones spe

I still don't get the reason why they dropped half the racial languages of outsiders from third edition, really.

Waker
2011-01-06, 11:08 AM
It's a very simply combination, but I like Devil's Sight (Darkvision, Magic Dark) combined with Darkness/Hungry Darkness.
Supernatural Transformation is excellent to take as a Warlock. Ignoring SR and AoO never gets old. Ability Focus is handy, as well as Empower/Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

JBento
2011-01-06, 11:53 AM
I just recalled: if you don't mind doing a bit more dipping, take able learner at 1st lvl so you can prestige into 2 lvls of chameleon and make any magic items you want (minus constructs) at 500xp a batch (not item). Thank you, Thought Bottle.

SylvanPrincess
2011-01-06, 12:16 PM
No, the ability basically says 'You can't negate this damage. Not ever. No, not even then.' And guess what you are negating the damage, so it doesn't work.
Even if RAW is fuzzy here, RAI is so crystal clear that the only argument that could be made is that one about 'feeding them with the eternal souls of incarnum' and even that falls to pieces because hell wants your soul specifically.
It's been discussed to hell and it always comes down to this - DM's call. RAI is so crystal clear that contesting a DM that rules against it will always reek of munchkinery to me.

Also, Sylvan - do you want to be a melee warlock? We're the coolest guys in the playground and we have the best parties. Also, loads and loads of untyped damage.:smallbiggrin: (check the link in my sig)

lol, i DO like cookies. do continue :)

nice, ill take a look

JBento
2011-01-06, 12:32 PM
There won't be any cookies. Melee locks are jerks, and they use baleful utterance on them so there's just crumbs :smallfrown:

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-06, 12:51 PM
No, the ability basically says 'You can't negate this damage. Not ever. No, not even then.' And guess what you are negating the damage, so it doesn't work.
Even if RAW is fuzzy here, RAI is so crystal clear that the only argument that could be made is that one about 'feeding them with the eternal souls of incarnum' and even that falls to pieces because hell wants your soul specifically.
It's been discussed to hell and it always comes down to this - DM's call. RAI is so crystal clear that contesting a DM that rules against it will always reek of munchkinery to me.

Also, Sylvan - do you want to be a melee warlock? We're the coolest guys in the playground and we have the best parties. Also, loads and loads of untyped damage.:smallbiggrin: (check the link in my sig)


RAW isn't fuzzy - it clearly states that you can't use HFB if you're immune to Con damage, not THIS Con dmg, and therefore, the Vest flies.

I agree with you on RAI, though - Hell made a deal for YOUR vitality (it doesn't actually have any authority on other creatures' life force, even if you're feeding it directly into Mephistopheles' power intake valve), and if you don't pay, you don't get the goods.

And that is why I prefer Binder Dip and naberius, because you are taking the damege, the devils are getting their pay; but next turn you recover it see, cheesy? perhaps but I think it satisfies both RAW and RAI


There won't be any cookies. Melee locks are jerks, and they use baleful utterance on them so there's just crumbs :smallfrown:
Lies, this man lies, we only use baleful utterance on the real jerks, range locks. Cowards I say, they are not manly enough to get into the thick of the fray.

:smalltongue:

Sylvanprincess I really suggest you look into true_shinken guide to meele warlocks there is some great advice there, even if you are not a dedicated melee-lock.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-06, 01:34 PM
No, the ability basically says 'You can't negate this damage. Not ever. No, not even then.' And guess what you are negating the damage, so it doesn't work.

I quoted the relevant text in my previous post. It does not "basically say" anything. The ability explicitly says what I quoted. RAW is crystal clear.

Personally I believe RAI is rather fuzzy. The devils granting you your power want a piece of your soul in compensation. What else is a soulmeld made of, if not souls?

Regardless, you are correct that this has been debated for quite a while, and here is not the place to continue the discussion. I think that if we do wish to, we need a new thread.

Hyfigh is right, Supernatural Transformation is pretty nifty on your Eldritch Blast (you should be able to apply any of your Shapes or Essences, it'll remain a Su ability). And it removes the need for Vitriolic blast to get through SR. The biggest boon in this case is it allows your Soulfire Blast to ignore SR!

Yeah, melee 'locks are a blast. :smallbiggrin: Warlocks in general are just fun. Be sure to take Baleful Utterance (even if you need your DM to refluff it for you), because it is awesome.

JBento
2011-01-06, 02:03 PM
And then, cast Shatter at the darkness!!!! :smallsmile:

Psyren
2011-01-06, 04:31 PM
I personally don't think that Supernatural Transformation should apply to EB.



Prerequisite: Innate spell-like ability.

One of your innate spell-like abilities becomes a supernatural ability.
...


An EB is no more "innate" than an SLA you gain by taking Archmage levels imo. No SLA that comes from levels in a class is.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-06, 05:04 PM
That is a good point that I completely overlooked. :smallfrown: Sad, as that would be so useful with Eldritch Blast.

MeeposFire
2011-01-06, 05:11 PM
Yea they cleared that up in an article or a sage thing. Innate was meant to be racial or similar not class based abilities. It just gets confusing when you say you have this power because of your ancestor's pact with a devil which makes people think it is innate but that is just the fluff, you still are getting your blast by picking up the warlock class. Now if you eldritch blast from a racial ability you would be in business.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 06:14 PM
Yea they cleared that up in an article or a sage thing. Innate was meant to be racial or similar not class based abilities. It just gets confusing when you say you have this power because of your ancestor's pact with a devil which makes people think it is innate but that is just the fluff, you still are getting your blast by picking up the warlock class. Now if you eldritch blast from a racial ability you would be in business.

It may come from ancestry, but you still have to train it to bring it out. If it was purely heritage-based you could have an eldritch blast without actually taking levels in Warlock.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-06, 06:21 PM
It may come from ancestry, but you still have to train it to bring it out. If it was purely heritage-based you could have an eldritch blast without actually taking levels in Warlock.

.....I sense a inherited template is in order here. :smallsmile:

MeeposFire
2011-01-06, 06:22 PM
It may come from ancestry, but you still have to train it to bring it out. If it was purely heritage-based you could have an eldritch blast without actually taking levels in Warlock.

Isn't that what I essentially said? I explicitly said that it does not work since the game considers innate as being a racial ability (or similar). I even said "picked up by the warlock class" in my post.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 07:37 PM
Isn't that what I essentially said? I explicitly said that it does not work since the game considers innate as being a racial ability (or similar). I even said "picked up by the warlock class" in my post.

I didn't mean to seem like I was contradicting you; merely clarifying (because that was the part you described as "confusing" - to other people, that is.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-06, 08:04 PM
The Devil's Sight/Darkness combo really isn't as good as people think it is. Darkness only applies a 20% miss chance, but it doesn't block line of sight, so you can't even make a Hide check with it unless you have Hide In Plain Sight. So you are paying TWO of your three Least invocations for... a crappier version of Blur? Pass.

See The Unseen is, however, made of win. See Invis from level 1, and solve a lot of rather sticky problems. Also Darkvision in case your race doesn't have it.

Dark Utterance (and you can change the name to 'divine utterance' if you like) = at-will Shatter. If you can't have fun with this, you don't need to be playing Warlocks.

Dark One's Own Luck (change text to read 'luck of the divine' or something if you like) = Cha to a single save. So you can shore up your pathetic Fort save, if you want. Best of all, you can change which save it shores up, so it is very useful in a variety of situation where you know you're going to be making a bunch of a specific types of saves (fighting a bunch of blaster-happy casters? Reflex. Fighting illithids and psionic nonsense? Will. Worried about poisons? Fort.)

Spiderclimb is also an invaluable least invocation to keep you out of harm's way. At least until you get Fell Flight.

Eldritch Glaive is a Least invocation, but has some quirky restrictions. Most of the ways people get more full attacks won't work with it, and it is not a weapon and so most things that increase damage also will not work on it. Having said that, it's a lot of fun.

As far as Lesser... well, I know that Hellfire Warlock required Hellfire Blast, perhaps your GM would require Soulfire blast instead? Then there's Fell Flight for maneuverability, and Flee The Scene for evac-button.

Eldritch Chain is a good thing if you are pairing it with a disabling Eldritch Essence, like Nauseating or Bewitching or Hindering Blast. Works well with Utterdark Blast as well. But most of those are Greater or Dark invocations, so you'll see almost no use out of it for some time.

Greater Invocations are really sweet, you've got a lot of choices, but only three slots to fill.

Chilling Tentacles are one of the star players here, can shut down anything that isn't a pure beat-stick, and does some damage as well.

Vitriolic Blast is another good one. Ignore SR in exchange for having the flavor of Acid. I'll take that, against some opponents.

Devour Magic. At-will Greater Dispel Magic, too bad it's with a touch attack

Eldritch Cone. Good at hall-sweeping mooks.

Bewitching/hindering/nauseating/repelling blast. Tack on a save-or-loose effect onto your blast. Good if you can hit multiple opponents with it (eldritch chain or cone), otherwise not so much.

Also, a two-level dip in Chameleon will be very useful to you for the floating bonus feat. It can turn you into a real item-factory, or give you an extra invocation of one degree less than the highest you can currently use.

true_shinken
2011-01-06, 08:31 PM
RAW isn't fuzzy - it clearly states that you can't use HFB if you're immune to Con damage, not THIS Con dmg, and therefore, the Vest flies.

I won't argue anymore about this, but the phrasing of 'somehow immune' makes the whole thing iffy. After all, you are immune to Con damage of 1 - you are in a way immune to Con damage. So you are somehow immune to Con damage. I think it's fuzzy enough to stay away from the whole thing.



Personally I believe RAI is rather fuzzy. The devils granting you your power want a piece of your soul in compensation. What else is a soulmeld made of, if not souls?

It's made of souls alright. It's not made of your soul. They want your soul specifically. No other soul will do, it has to be your soul.


Supernatural Transformation, a feat in Savage Species, turns a Sp into an Su. Using this wisely will allow you to turn some of your invocations and/or blasts into Su's. Removing SR as defense without having to take Vitriolic Blast isn't that bad an idea. Taking it for Noxious Blast certainly isn't anything to scoff at.
It's specifically stated in the FAQ not to work with Warlocks, though. :smallfrown:


The Devil's Sight/Darkness combo really isn't as good as people think it is. Darkness only applies a 20% miss chance, but it doesn't block line of sight, so you can't even make a Hide check with it unless you have Hide In Plain Sight. So you are paying TWO of your three Least invocations for... a crappier version of Blur? Pass.
Since you can get Hide in Plain Sight from a feat very soon, I find it to be pretty good.

Melee warlocks, open the spoiler.

http://charity.stanfordacm.com/data/Cookies.jpg
Yes, we have them.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 08:52 PM
Not sure where I stand on the Strongheart Vest debate. I definitely don't buy the "you're feeding them Incarnum, that's even more evil!" argument; Incarnum is too impersonal a source of soul energy, like stealing a lollipop from the candy store instead of a baby's pram. If Incarnum was every bit as good as personal souls, Devils would have a whole cabal of Incarnate/HFWs, that do nothing all day but zap a wall with Hellfire so that they can slurp up their Strongheart runoff.

Having said that, I don't think it should be outright disallowed either. I mean, it's not like it's breaking the Warlock or anything. It's also less annoying than Naberius, because you need an odd Con score to keep your modifier from fluctuating with each shot.

true_shinken
2011-01-06, 08:57 PM
Having said that, I don't think it should be outright disallowed either. I mean, it's not like it's breaking the Warlock or anything. It's also less annoying than Naberius, because you need an odd Con score to keep your modifier from fluctuating with each shot.
My real problem with that - it's too easy.
A single feat trumping a class feature that is not supposed to be trumped... annoys me. Binder, in the other hand, requires a dip. It slows your invocation progression. It hurts your bab unless you use fractionals. It has a cost. It also does not completely trump the cost - it just gives you one 'free' hellfire blast each round (you can throw three a round - one with Quicken SLA, one with a standard action and one as an immediate action).
I've yet to meet someone who has a problem with the Binder dip (a class that even fits very well with Warlock fluff). Strongheart Vest just seems cheesy.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-06, 09:36 PM
Since you can get Hide in Plain Sight from a feat very soon, I find it to be pretty good.

Melee warlocks, open the spoiler.

http://charity.stanfordacm.com/data/Cookies.jpg
Yes, we have them.

So you are blowing two invocations known and a Feat to be able to use a cross-class skill halfway-effectively? Even worse deal, IMO.

true_shinken
2011-01-06, 09:51 PM
So you are blowing two invocations known and a Feat to be able to use a cross-class skill halfway-effectively? Even worse deal, IMO.
To each his own, I guess. I see it as blowing two invocations known and a feat to get the ability to use an easily boostable very powerful cross-class skill very well.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-07, 04:19 PM
SylvanPrincess, any more progress on your build? From everything it sounds like you could be a solid mix of blaster and BFC (assuming you grab Chilling Tentacles). You won't be an optimized wizard, but you certainly won't be dragging your party down, either. :smallsmile:


.....I sense a inherited template is in order here. :smallsmile:

And the inspiration has come to fruition. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10114820#post10114820)

Bang!
2011-01-07, 06:11 PM
There's Disciple of Bearthing prestige class from Book of Exalted Deeds that is decidedly Good, that advances warlock SLAs at 10/10 levels and that lets Warlocks turn into giant bears at will.

It sounds like it might be fitting.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-07, 06:29 PM
Add Demonbinder! :D