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Elric VIII
2011-01-05, 11:55 PM
So, today I had a conversation with a friend that wants to join our D&D group. He played when he was 10, but not since. We have just lost a player, and his timely arrival will be very convenient. The one problem is that he will be away for rought 2 weeks, bringing us to the beginning of the semester and a continuation of the campaign, and he wnts me to design him a character. The only thing he said to me was not a spellcaster and the term "Dark Knight."

My initial thought was Gray Guard or Shadowbane Inquisitor. The thing is, those require a spellcasting class to enter (or spell-less Paladin, but that's just bad).

Right now I'm going to propose a LG Hellbred Crusader taking the Deviltouched feats and the aspect that grants bonus Deviltouched feats. Crusader seems like the easiest ToB class to play, especially if its build is predesigned.

I would like to find a suitible PrC the emulates the hero tortured and continuously haunted by his dark past. Hellreaver has too much of the Divine Fury aspect and none of the questionable morals aspect that I'm looking for. The answer will be most likely to RP it so that he is dark, but a PrC to reflect this would be great and I'm at a loss for options.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-06, 12:05 AM
Heh, you sure that using hellbred and crusader isn't overboard for this character concept? I mean, traditionally a 'black' or 'dark' knight was just a knight incognito; either a rogue knight with no allegiance or one who bore no signs of his allegiance, and, supposedly, they would paint their armor black just to hide the rust stains because they didn't have a squire maintaining their armor all the time. Honestly a human fighter would work just fine for this :smallwink:.

If this fellow hasn't played for a bajillion and a half years (and especially if he hasn't played 3.5), then simple is probably the best.

NineThePuma
2011-01-06, 12:07 AM
I'd like to say that straight Crusader isn't actually bad. In fact, it's quite excellent.

The ONLY issue is that if he wants Level 8 stances he'll need to multi-class out for one or two levels.

An idea: if the DM allows it, see if you can exchange Grey Guard's spell casting for Initiating. Or ask your DM to waive the Ruby Knight Vindicator's Wee Jas affiliation.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-06, 12:07 AM
Are you the DM or a fellow player? If the former, why not adapt Shadowbane Inquisitor to support a Crusader/Rogue mix instead of a Paladin/Rogue mix? Remove the Pierce Shadows, Sacred Stealth, and Burning Light, and give it a short half-progression of maneuvers...Divine Spirit and Shadow Hand, maybe.

Urpriest
2011-01-06, 12:07 AM
Spell-less paladin isn't too horrible if you're going for Gray Guard/Shadowbane Inquisitor. You lose access to wands, but otherwise you lose almost no spellcasting since you would have lost it anyway by being in those PrCs. Complete Champion's spell-less paladin gains bonus feats, which is pretty snazzy. Shadowbane Inquisitor is also fun because it's a great base for Blackguard, though that class does cast spells. But I doubt "not a spellcaster" means "no spells whatsoever" anyway, it usually just means spells shouldn't be the main shtick.

Serpentine
2011-01-06, 12:08 AM
Following up from the "it doesn't have to be complicated" and "if he hasn't played for years even more reason to keep it simple", I suggest just using the Knight class and working with fluff and roleplay. It's fairly straightforward mechanics-wise, and you can always prestige or multiclass later.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-06, 12:13 AM
That's actually fairly good advice. Knight is probably one of the simplest classes to play that's actually good at its job (other than Barbarian), and unlike Barbarian, can do something other than SMASH.

Serpentine
2011-01-06, 12:15 AM
Sidenote: if you wanna go REALLY emo, give him a good regeneration item/ability from somewhere, and a weapon with the Backbiter ability (pretty sure that's the one) - he'll be basically going into combat whipping himself. Bonus points if he actually uses whips :smallamused:

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 12:30 AM
Some background to address the issues brought up:
- I am a fellow player, not DM. But the DM is open to pretty much all WotC printed material (including Dragon Mag) but not too keen on homebrew (I have no clue why, considering Dragon Mag might as well be homebrew given the amount of playtesting it receives).

- He's a smart enough guy to deal with 5-7 maneuvers at once, as long as I can try to avoid the traps (I've never played a Crusader, but I've dont Swordsage)

- I plat MTG with him, so I'm basing the definition of Dark Knight on that. He plays Vampires, Suicide Black, and WBG Recursion. So I'm assuming by "Dark" that he meant "of questionable morality." I could be wrong, however.

-I want to try to make him about equal in power to out crit-focues Warblade/Dervish. I have absolutely 0 experience with the Knight and I have never even looked at any guides for the class, but if it can work the BFC angle without too much complication it might be a good choice.

- I thought Hellbred would be nice since the Deviltouched feats would give him a theme/identity to adhere to, but I'm not married to the idea. I have no personal preferences for the outcome of the build, I just want to try to make him a class that he will enjoy, given the limited desription given.

Also, it may be good to note that he's our 5th party member and we already have the Divine Caster/Arcanist/Skill Monkey/Meleer dynamic in the party, so he doesn't need to be too vesitile.

Serpentine
2011-01-06, 12:41 AM
I don't know much about hellbred, but I think it depends on what sort of angst/moral ambiguity he wants. Is it dealing with a questionable lineage? Struggling with the inner turmoil of dark inclinations thanks to his blood? If so, then hellbred should work fine, I think. I, personally, would be inclined to suggest something other than "woe is me my great-grandfather was a demon" because I find it a bit... done, but eh, it'll work fine.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 12:46 AM
I don't know much about hellbred, but I think it depends on what sort of angst/moral ambiguity he wants. Is it dealing with a questionable lineage? Struggling with the inner turmoil of dark inclinations thanks to his blood? If so, then hellbred should work fine, I think. I, personally, would be inclined to suggest something other than "woe is me my great-grandfather was a demon" because I find it a bit... done, but eh, it'll work fine.

According to Hellbred descriptions they're the souls of evil people that repented too late for salvation but were given another chance in a new body to prove their good intent. It says that the Hellbred are constantly haunted by the punishments of the nine hells and seek to achieve some great heroic act. They are described as having he forces of good and evil warring inside them.

I wasn't going for the self-pitying half demon that you suggest. I agree that that concept is rather trite and overdone.

Xyk
2011-01-06, 01:25 AM
Dark Knight. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures)

Unless you want one with a good alignment. I'd go with a simple Paladin with most of the character being in the fluff. For instance, give him some heavy armor and tell him it's black. Ask the DM to allow him a machievellian (sp?) approach where ends justify the means of his actions to avoid falling immediately. I like to use core only for newbies.

Serpentine
2011-01-06, 01:27 AM
According to Hellbred descriptions they're the souls of evil people that repented too late for salvation but were given another chance in a new body to prove their good intent. It says that the Hellbred are constantly haunted by the punishments of the nine hells and seek to achieve some great heroic act. They are described as having he forces of good and evil warring inside them.

I wasn't going for the self-pitying half demon that you suggest. I agree that that concept is rather trite and overdone.Ahhhh, okay. That sounds more interesting. Heavy-handed, perhaps, but interesting. Sounds fine to me.

Pechvarry
2011-01-06, 01:37 AM
Hexblade? Perhaps even with the designer's suggested changes if someone has them handy? If that's still too much spellcasting, maybe the DM would let him trade it in, complete champion paladin/ranger style (4 extra bonus feats).

Shpadoinkle
2011-01-06, 03:16 AM
Did he mean 'not a spellcaster' as in "NO SPELLS PERIOD!" or "not primarily a caster?"

NineThePuma
2011-01-06, 03:19 AM
Better question.

Can you make Batman anyways, hand him the sheet, and say "Here's your Dark Knight!" and let him read it for a few minutes before handing him the REAL sheet?

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 03:59 AM
Hexblade? Perhaps even with the designer's suggested changes if someone has them handy? If that's still too much spellcasting, maybe the DM would let him trade it in, complete champion paladin/ranger style (4 extra bonus feats).

This could work, since Hexblade was meant to be the original Anti-Paladin base class.



Did he mean 'not a spellcaster' as in "NO SPELLS PERIOD!" or "not primarily a caster?"

Good question. Perhaps I'm being too literal.



Better question.

Can you make Batman anyways, hand him the sheet, and say "Here's your Dark Knight!" and let him read it for a few minutes before handing him the REAL sheet?

Do you mean the actual Batman or Batman Wizard? Or do you mean hand him the actual Batman, then when he realizes that I took his request literally hand him the Wizard Batman, than when he has absolutely no clue wtf to do give him his real character? Because I'm ok with that.

Serpentine
2011-01-06, 04:37 AM
The latter. Do that.

NineThePuma
2011-01-06, 05:06 AM
In response to your question for me: Yes.

(Mathmetician's answer FTW.)

If you stick crusader, which I think you should, go Chaotic Good instead of Lawful Good. Chaotic has better stuff |3

Serpentine
2011-01-06, 05:26 AM
If you stick crusader, which I think you should, go Chaotic Good instead of Lawful Good. Chaotic has better stuff |3Don't think it really goes well with the character concept, though... A conflicted Neutral Good could work, though.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 09:14 AM
So, looking it over, Hexblade and Knight have some good Cha synnergy. The Crusader has some too. While I'm inclined to go straight Crusader (NG is a better choice) I'm wondering if it would be realistic to build him a Knight with a small dip into Hexblade and/or Crusader or is would that gimp him?

Serpentine
2011-01-06, 09:27 AM
I have a definite soft spot for Knights, but purely power-wise I think ToB is stronger. Dunno, though, I'm not an optimiser.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-06, 10:00 AM
Crusader with a Knight dip makes a fantastic tank. 3 levels of Knight to get Bulwark of Defense and you've pretty much invalidated the need for Thicket Of Blades (especially if you're at a level too low for Thicket), as well as gained a low-use "taunt".

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 12:06 PM
As I mentioned, it's ok if he's not optimized, but the biggest turnoff for a new (or pseudo-new) player is the feeling of being useless. I want him to have fun, and after looking over the Knight class, I'm inclined to agree that it is kind of cool, the way it controls enemies.

Now, is there any class that may be able to exemplify the dark/brooding nature he seems to want? Are there any Knight variants that have a reverse Knight's Code (eg - more willing to take advantage of a foe)? I'm not sure if that is the right way to go, but it might be a starting point.

One side note, can Bulwark of Defense work with the spiked armor/reach weapon to threaten all squares within 10ft?

kestrel404
2011-01-06, 12:59 PM
An interesting idea might be a Knight of the Sacred Seal (Tome of Magic) - the Binder prestige class that devotes themselves to a single vestige. Between the 'forbidden knowledge' aspect of the Binder class and devotion to a set of very alien ideals, this class has a very dark and edgy feel along with a 'code of morality' that the player can choose for themselves.

SuperFish
2011-01-06, 01:05 PM
There you go. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf8iQrWXlDM)

...Wait, no.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 01:39 PM
There you go. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf8iQrWXlDM)

...Wait, no.


Well, that was interesting. Do I just record it onto one of those record-your-own-message cards and staple it to the character sheet?



Knight of the Sacred Seal might be cool, but I rarely use ToM for anything other than Binder dips for one specific vestige ability (Focalar's Aura of Sadness, Naberius' ability regen, etc).

Maybe a Binder/Knight/Knight of the Sacred Seal and throw Crusader out the window. I still think Hellbred is a nice choice for this build, however. Especially since it plays on the otherworldly connections aspect.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 04:01 PM
I had a thought (by that I mean that I googled "D&D Dark Knight") there's a class/character in Final Fantasy called the Dark Knight that is basically like a melee Blood Magus. Does something like that exist in the 3.5 universe that can be added as a few levels of dipping?

The class will look something like this Knight 3/Binder 4/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/somethign else 8

EDIT: Something along the lines of Hellfire Warlock for melee would be cool. Maybe using your demonic influence to unlock powers, but suffering the consequences later.

EDIT 2: Is Runescarred Berserker good? A dip into Barbarian and a bit of reflavoring oculd make this work.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-06, 04:23 PM
Heh, you sure that using hellbred and crusader isn't overboard for this character concept? I mean, traditionally a 'black' or 'dark' knight was just a knight incognito; either a rogue knight with no allegiance or one who bore no signs of his allegiance, and, supposedly, they would paint their armor black just to hide the rust stains because they didn't have a squire maintaining their armor all the time. Honestly a human fighter would work just fine for this :smallwink:.

If this fellow hasn't played for a bajillion and a half years (and especially if he hasn't played 3.5), then simple is probably the best.

At the risk of getting a bit too historical...a great deal of armor was painted historically. It doesn't just hide rust, it helps prevent rust. Exposed metal can take a beating. Unfortunately, paint tends to deteriorate before the metal underneath does. Therefore, a lot of previously probably-painted armor is restored as unpainted in modern museums and the like. Black was not a particularly unusual color for armor to be painted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%80%D 1%8B%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C_3_%28%D0%AD%D1%80%D0% BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B6%29.jpg).

However, from a standpoint of arthurian legend, you are correct. And yes, representing him using traditional melee classes is quite reasonable. Many, such as fighter, are very open to a variety of motivations and alignments.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 04:25 PM
At the risk of getting a bit too historical...a great deal of armor was painted historically. It doesn't just hide rust, it helps prevent rust. Exposed metal can take a beating. Unfortunately, paint tends to deteriorate before the metal underneath does. Therefore, a lot of previously probably-painted armor is restored as unpainted in modern museums and the like. Black was not a particularly unusual color for armor to be painted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%80%D 1%8B%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C_3_%28%D0%AD%D1%80%D0% BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B6%29.jpg).

However, from a standpoint of arthurian legend, you are correct. And yes, representing him using traditional melee classes is quite reasonable. Many, such as fighter, are very open to a variety of motivations and alignments.

Lead-based armor paint is the main reason we have BSFs, rather than just BFs.

Gullintanni
2011-01-06, 04:35 PM
I had a thought (by that I mean that I googled "D&D Dark Knight") there's a class/character in Final Fantasy called the Dark Knight that is basically like a melee Blood Magus. Does something like that exist in the 3.5 universe that can be added as a few levels of dipping?

The class will look something like this Knight 3/Binder 4/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/somethign else 8

EDIT: Something along the lines of Hellfire Warlock for melee would be cool. Maybe using your demonic influence to unlock powers, but suffering the consequences later.

EDIT 2: Is Runescarred Berserker good? A dip into Barbarian and a bit of reflavoring oculd make this work.

My immediate thought was of Cecil from Final Fantasy IV. The Classic FF Dark Knight is a heavy armored swordsman whose sword feasts upon its wielders vitality and projects it violently at the Dark Knight's opponents.

Mechanically, this would be akin to: Spell drains X hit points/Constitution damage from Dark Knight and deals xd6 damage. I'm not sure if this is a consideration for the build, but if you could find a way to incorporate something like this then that would be pretty cool.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-06, 05:58 PM
My immediate thought was of Cecil from Final Fantasy IV. The Classic FF Dark Knight is a heavy armored swordsman whose sword feasts upon its wielders vitality and projects it violently at the Dark Knight's opponents.

Mechanically, this would be akin to: Spell drains X hit points/Constitution damage from Dark Knight and deals xd6 damage. I'm not sure if this is a consideration for the build, but if you could find a way to incorporate something like this then that would be pretty cool.

Blood Blade, in Spell Compendium, does exactly that. Hp damage to the caster, and bonus damage on their next attack if it hits. It's a Paladin 1/Blackguard 1 spell.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 08:31 PM
Blade of Blood, I use that often when I reach the higher levels. Perhaps a Cleric dip with the spontaneous divine caster option plus Devotion feats would work.

woodenbandman
2011-01-07, 03:23 AM
"I don't wanna be a spellcaster"
"okay, here, look at this class"
"It looks like a spellcaster"
"well it kinda is but just look at it."

:smallannoyed:

Considered incarnum? The incarnate would be pretty dark. Personally I think you could give the incarnate 3/4 BAB and call it a day.

Pechvarry
2011-01-07, 03:41 AM
Crusader: Greater Divine Surge. High level to start pulling that off, though.

Gullintanni
2011-01-07, 08:22 AM
Blood Blade, in Spell Compendium, does exactly that. Hp damage to the caster, and bonus damage on their next attack if it hits. It's a Paladin 1/Blackguard 1 spell.

Blackguard was actually my first thought of a Dark Knight equivalent using 3.5, I'm just not sure that the player in question wants evil + limited spell casting. Blackguard is basically the way to go though, far as I'm concerned.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 10:04 AM
Blood Blade, in Spell Compendium, does exactly that. Hp damage to the caster, and bonus damage on their next attack if it hits. It's a Paladin 1/Blackguard 1 spell.
That's Divine Sacrifice.
Blood Blade is a spell from PHB II with similar effect.
You could always use both.

Elric VIII
2011-01-07, 09:14 PM
I've been away from my PC for a while, but I haven't forgotten aobut this thread. I've posted this question on another forum as well and received similar advice. I talked with my DM, and he will allow a Cleric to take Extra Spell to gain Divine Sacrifice. My thoght is to use the Spontaneous caster variant from UA, trading in both domains for devotion feats and getting him up to 4th-ish level spells, then progressing a noncaster route like Shadowbane Inquisitor.

I'm going to assume that by not spellcaster he would be willing to use something with only a few spells known.

I think I know what to do from here ad I thank you all for your help. Although any additional suggestions would be welcome, I am thoroughly satisfied with where this character is in terms of development.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-07, 09:56 PM
I've been away from my PC for a while, but I haven't forgotten aobut this thread. I've posted this question on another forum as well and received similar advice. I talked with my DM, and he will allow a Cleric to take Extra Spell to gain Divine Sacrifice. My thoght is to use the Spontaneous caster variant from UA, trading in both domains for devotion feats and getting him up to 4th-ish level spells, then progressing a noncaster route like Shadowbane Inquisitor.

I'm going to assume that by not spellcaster he would be willing to use something with only a few spells known.

I think I know what to do from here ad I thank you all for your help. Although any additional suggestions would be welcome, I am thoroughly satisfied with where this character is in terms of development.

You might want to talk to him to be certain. Some people simply don't want to have to deal with magic at all.

NineThePuma
2011-01-07, 09:57 PM
You might want to talk to him to be certain. Some people simply don't want to have to deal with magic at all.

Some of those people get angsty over ToB, Psionics, and anything else resembling spells. They LIKE "I full attack!" as their only viable combat option.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 10:06 PM
Some of those people get angsty over ToB, Psionics, and anything else resembling spells. They LIKE "I full attack!" as their only viable combat option.

Not that there is anything wrong with it.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-07, 10:45 PM
Some of those people get angsty over ToB, Psionics, and anything else resembling spells. They LIKE "I full attack!" as their only viable combat option.

Which has...nothing to do with my recommendation at all, and is a little bit inflammatory to boot. His friend didn't say 'non-ToB' or 'non-Psionics', only 'non-spellcaster' - so assuming that he actually meant 'not a lot of spellcasting' isn't something to take for granted.

Thrawn183
2011-01-07, 10:50 PM
Evil Kensai?

NineThePuma
2011-01-07, 11:03 PM
My apologies to anyone who might end up offended by my prior remarks. I was merely intending to point out that saying "Not a spellcaster" might extend to other systems that appear cosmetically similar to spells.

Elric VIII
2011-01-08, 09:40 AM
Well, As per this thread I have two design choices that I will present to him.

The first is the Knight of the Sacred Seal build that I will look into to make sure that he can be bound to the same two vestiges, so he doesn't have to deal with much magic.

The second is the one bsed off the Dark Knight from final fantasy, which seems a little magic.

He will have a few options, but I won't have a chance to communicate with him. I have senthim an e-mail to try to clarify, but as of yet received no response. I am aware that even a little magic might be too much, but I am trying my best to meet his criteria.