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Feather Sigil
2011-01-06, 02:30 AM
I recently got accepted to a game wherein I'm playing a Sorcerer for the first time. After studying as many Sorcerer guides as I could find and plenty of edits I've come up with a spell list I'm almost completely satisfied with. So, before this spell list proper comes into practice I'd like some critique regarding my spell selections to see if perhaps there are any major flaws I ought to address, if any spells taken simply aren't worth it, etc.

The character (starting at L3) is mostly a blaster/offensive character but I've also included a number of versatility-and-defense-based spells.



Current Spells Known (at level 3):

5xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Light, Daze, Ghost Sound

3xL1: Grease, Charm Person, Snilloc's Snowball



Total Spells Known (edit: this is a projected possible spell list at level 20) :

9xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Mending, Message

5xL1: Nerveskitter, Silent Image, Charm Person, Snilloc's Snowball (replaced with Magic Missile at level 8), Grease

5xL2: Wings of Cover, Alter Self, Scorching Ray, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility

4xL3: Shivering Touch, Great Thunderclap, Phantom Steed or Fly (I can't decide which), Shadow Conjuration (replaced with Assay Spell Resistance at level 14)

4xL4: Celerity, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Greater Mirror Image, Wings of Flurry

4xL5: Arcane Fusion, Shadow Evocation (replaced with Magic Jar at level 16), Telekinesis, Draconic Polymorph

3xL6: Freezing Fog, Freezing Glance, Greater Dispel Magic

3xL7: Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Teleport

3xL8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Polymorph Any Object

3xL9: Time Stop, Shapechange, Maw of Chaos

HunterOfJello
2011-01-06, 02:40 AM
There are several offensive spells that are better than Snilloc's Snowball. Hail of Stone, one of the Orb spells or Magic Missle would be better there.

Nerveskitter is an amazing spell on a wand, but not as great when it costs a spell slot.

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-06, 02:59 AM
I would try to include Color Spray at the beginning. It's a great crowd control spell for its level.

It might be good to have at least a couple of party buff spells for those encounters where you can't blast easily (e.g. constructs). Haste for instance, unless you have a wizard in your party who can take care of that.

The shadow spells are greater for added versatility, but they don't work very well for blasting due to the multiple saves they allow. At higher levels, you might want to look for spells that don't allow SR, such as the Orb spells and Deadly Lahar.

turkishproverb
2011-01-06, 03:36 AM
I might replace charm person with color spray to start with. More reliable spell (even if a guard is friendly, it doesn't mean he'll let you out of the cell)

Feather Sigil
2011-01-06, 10:42 AM
I had considered Colour Spray but one of my comrades-to-be is a Beguiler and he has the spell on his list.

I used to have Haste on the list; I'll rethink that one. Another party member is a wizard but I haven't seen his spells yet.


There are several offensive spells that are better than Snilloc's Snowball. Hail of Stone, one of the Orb spells or Magic Missle would be better there.

Hail of Stone, great as it is, costs a material component. It's only 5gp, but that adds up very quickly and as a third level character I don't have that much gp to spend.

As good as the Orb spells are their Lesser versions don't compare. It takes 9 levels for Lesser Orb to max out as opposed to Snowball's 5 and the damage is comparable.

I already plan to swap Snowball for Magic Missile once I have more capable damage spells.




The shadow spells are greater for added versatility, but they don't work very well for blasting due to the multiple saves they allow. At higher levels, you might want to look for spells that don't allow SR, such as the Orb spells and Deadly Lahar.

Yeah, those shadow spells have been a constant source of second-guessing for me. Even now I'm not entirely convinced.

Feather Sigil
2011-01-07, 03:50 PM
Slight changes to the spell list. Changed my mind regarding the Orb, Jello. :smallsmile:

---

[Current Spells Known]

5xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Light, Daze, Ghost Sound

3xL1: Grease, Charm Person, Lesser Orb of Fire

---

[Total Spells Known]

9xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Mage Hand, Message

5xL1: Nerveskitter, Silent Image, Charm Person, Lesser Orb of Fire (replaced with True Strike at level 8), Grease

5xL2: Wings of Cover, Alter Self, Scorching Ray, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility

4xL3: Shivering Touch, Great Thunderclap, Phantom Steed, Shadow Conjuration (replaced with Melf's Unicorn Arrow at level 14)

4xL4: Celerity, Evard's Black Tentacles (replaced with Ruin Delver's Fortune at level 12), Assay Spell Resistance or Lower Spell Resistance (can't decide), Wings of Flurry

4xL5: Arcane Fusion, Shadow Evocation (replaced with Arc of Lightning at level 16), Telekinesis, Draconic Polymorph

3xL6: Freezing Fog, Freezing Glance, Disintegrate

3xL7: Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Teleport

3xL8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Polymorph Any Object

3xL9: Time Stop, Shapechange, ??? (not sure what to fill this last one with)

---

I have a few more specific inquiries this time:

1. I want to have Glitterdust. Of all my great 2nd level spells, which ought I to get rid of for it?

1b. Assuming I get it, should I ever switch Glitterdust for another spell?

2. Same question as #1, but with Deadly Lahar and my 8th level spells.

3. Are the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells truly, TRULY worth it? I fully realize how versatile they can be, but on top of the numerous extra saves they grant, they make the spells they emulate subject to SR if the spells in question aren't normally subject to it. That's huge.

I'm thinking that the first Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells aren't worth it since they only have 20% effectiveness under the worst case scenario. At least with the Greater versions they're more than 50% effective and by the time I get them I'll have ways of dealing with SR.

Still, I'd really appreciate a second opinion on this, in addition to further critique regarding the spell list in general.

5. What should I put into my final 9th level slot?

dragongirl13
2011-01-07, 05:26 PM
Uh, you might want Meteor Swarm if you're a blaster. Also, I'd invest in some sonic stuff. Electricity and fire resistances/immunities are common.

Bang!
2011-01-07, 06:14 PM
I'm thinking that the first Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells aren't worth it since they only have 20% effectiveness under the worst case scenario.
Shadow Conjuration makes some efficient packaging for a phantom steed.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-07, 06:30 PM
Get wish at 9th level (unless your dm is really nice and lets you gate in Efreets for them)

You could grab buffs like Haste, Greater Mighty Wallop, etc (unless your group has another dedicated buffer), and CC stuff like Cloudkill and Solid Fog (again, unless you have another caster doing CC).

All in all, maybe a little too much single target SoD, SoS, and too little mass SoL.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-07, 06:43 PM
Let's see....
Right Now:
Reflex, Will, Direct-Damage when you're 3rd. Not a bad set.

Later on:
1) You don't have any method of defeating Invisibility.
2) You don't have Limited Wish for those 'I need this right now but never thought I'd need it' utility effects (also: under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish can duplicate Psychic Reformation - and under Magic-Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can change spells known as well as powers known)
3) You'll want a full set of offensive spells: a good Fort Save-or-Lose, a good Will Save-or-Lose, a good Reflex Save-or-Lose, a good no-SR offensive spell, and a good no-save offensive spell. You don't have the full set. Oh yes, and make sure you pick up Heighten Spell (keeps the 'or lose' bit reasonably likely).

Lateral
2011-01-07, 06:54 PM
Uh, you might want Meteor Swarm if you're a blaster.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

You'd be better off taking an Orb spell and metamagicking it out the wazoo.

Or, y'know, just use Wail of the Banshee to kill every enemy on the battlefield, or something.

Drynwyn
2011-01-07, 07:03 PM
He's right, you know.
Metamagiced spells are a lot more useful than meteor swarm. I wouldn recommend wish. Also, have you considered greater celerity?

Bang!
2011-01-07, 07:27 PM
Your original Maw of Chaos isn't a bad choice, if you're into the blasting thing.
Not as versatile as Gate or as scary as Disjunction, but a nice heap of damage to a nice crowd of targets.

Feather Sigil
2011-01-07, 07:28 PM
You'd be better off taking an Orb spell and metamagicking it out the wazoo.

I'll gladly take any suggestions as to which fourth level spell to drop for Orb of Force. I simply can't decide (and I hadn't intended to be that metamagic heavy) so I had planned to work around it.


Get wish at 9th level (unless your dm is really nice and lets you gate in Efreets for them)

You could grab buffs like Haste, Greater Mighty Wallop, etc (unless your group has another dedicated buffer), and CC stuff like Cloudkill and Solid Fog (again, unless you have another caster doing CC).

All in all, maybe a little too much single target SoD, SoS, and too little mass SoL.

I'd really rather not take any spells that cost XP.

One of my party members is a Conjurer and at least in my current setup I have the Shadow Conjuration spells. That's why I'm light on clouds.

Haste is still on my mind. Right now I've got five 3rd level spells I'd really like to use:

Haste (self-explanatory and I'm lacking buffs as it is)
Shivering Touch (thematically important to the character, not to mention that's quite a bit of DEX damage)
Great Thunderclap (chances are anything will be affected by some part of this spell, if not multiple parts)
Phantom Steed (flight)
Shadow Conjuration (versatility)
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (a possible substitute for Orb of Force and just a good no-SR damage spell in its own right)


Let's see....
Right Now:
Reflex, Will, Direct-Damage when you're 3rd. Not a bad set.

Later on:
1) You don't have any method of defeating Invisibility.
2) You don't have Limited Wish for those 'I need this right now but never thought I'd need it' utility effects (also: under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish can duplicate Psychic Reformation - and under Magic-Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can change spells known as well as powers known)
3) You'll want a full set of offensive spells: a good Fort Save-or-Lose, a good Will Save-or-Lose, a good Reflex Save-or-Lose, a good no-SR offensive spell, and a good no-save offensive spell. You don't have the full set. Oh yes, and make sure you pick up Heighten Spell (keeps the 'or lose' bit reasonably likely).

1. That's why I'd like to get Glitterdust. I'm just not sure which 2nd level spell I should drop for it (and whether or not I should keep it forever).
2. I'd really rather not take any spells that cost XP. Also, Psionics? :smallconfused:
3. I'll look over the list and my books again and try my best to grab all of those things. Any suggestions within each category?


He's right, you know.
Metamagiced spells are a lot more useful than meteor swarm. I wouldn recommend wish. Also, have you considered greater celerity?

I've considered blasting spells for my third L9 slot, but not Meteor Swarm. Right now I'm torn between Iceberg and Maw of Chaos.

Many, many times have I considered Greater Celerity. I just don't think it's really worth the 8th level slot, as compared to what I've already got and the Deadly Lahar I had planned to put in there.

Lateral
2011-01-07, 07:51 PM
Oh, Maw of Chaos is great if you want a 9th level blast. Huge untyped damage, plus daze, EVERY ROUND until the spell ends? YES PLEASE.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-07, 07:58 PM
1. That's why I'd like to get Glitterdust. I'm just not sure which 2nd level spell I should drop for it (and whether or not I should keep it forever).
2. I'd really rather not take any spells that cost XP. Also, Psionics? :smallconfused:
In most cases, you're right not to want spells that cost XP (or GP). And in most cases, you want spells you will use pretty much every day.

Limited Wish is neither of those - but it's still one that's very, very useful for a Sorcerer.

See, the Wizard can craft Scrolls of stuff he'll only use occasionally. If there's a 'magic mart' available, and you get wealth-by-level, you can buy those.

Limited Wish is for when there isn't, you don't, or you didn't expect. It's one of the few 'use sparingly' spells I recommend for a Sorcerer. Really, really need to interrogate someone now? Limited Wish (Dominate Person). Cleric died, you need him back on his feet, and don't have time to get to town for a hireling cleric? Limited Wish (Reincarnate) (or Raise Dead, if you have the diamonds). Need a Heal? Limited Wish (NPC-class Adept Spell List: Heal). It's an emergency spell. Superior Invisible foe in the area? Limited Wish (True Seeing). If you find you never need to use it, then congrats: You planned everything else perfectly. But if you're not a perfect planner, it's invaluable.

As for the question of Psionics:
SRD to the Rescue! (http://www.d20srd.org/). Under Magic-Psionics Transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects), Limited Wish can get you Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm), which lets you change your powers known. Under Magic-Psionics Transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects), that means you can change your spells known out too. Which puts you much, much closer to the Wizard's tier, although you won't be doing that often (expensive).


3. I'll look over the list and my books again and try my best to grab all of those things. Any suggestions within each category?

Glitterdust (2nd; Will save or Lose, no SR, defeats invisibility ... if you know where to place it - a Bat familiar for the Blindsense comes in handy, here; familiar tells you which square to put the Glitterdust in)
Stinking Cloud (3rd; Fort save or Lose, no SR)
Resilient Sphere (Reflex save or Lose, affects incorporeal critters)
Note: You can actually get all three Save-or-Lose effects in 2nd level spell slots, and have them all be no-SR to boot. Glitterdust, Web, and Cloud of Bewilderment (Spell Compendium) are all SR: no, area-effect, save-or-lose Conjouration spells. Heighten is so they don't become obsoleted by growing saves.
No-save: you're mostly looking at Wall spells here - Wall of Stone or Wall of Force (although Wall of Stone has a pesky limiter, if you stop and read the spell description). However, Solid Fog (and it's big brother, Acid Fog) is a good contender as well.
You'll also need at least a little direct-damage, of course.

I'd probably be inclined to drop Scorching Ray, myself. I would need to re-read Ray of Stupidity before deciding, though, to see whether or not Ray of Stupidity can actually drop someone to 0 Int.

Feather Sigil
2011-01-07, 08:40 PM
Limited Wish is for when there isn't, you don't, or you didn't expect. It's one of the few 'use sparingly' spells I recommend for a Sorcerer. If you find you never need to use it, then congrats: You planned everything else perfectly. But if you're not a perfect planner, it's invaluable. As for the question of Psionics:

In that case, that only leaves the issue of which 7th level spell to drop.

Arcane Spellsurge is simply far too useful for blasting since I can use it to cast two spells in one round. Combine that with Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion and, well...

Greater Shadow Conjuration offers vast amounts of potential and versatility, not to mention it gives me the Orb spells.

I guess I could drop Greater Teleport, maybe pick up the standard Teleport, but then I'd have to choose between Shadow Evocation, Arcane Fusion, Telekinesis and Draconic Polymorph. Well, I was considering dropping Shadow Evocation...

Don't even mention Dimension Door to me; I'm having enough trouble with 4th level spells as it is. ><


Glitterdust (2nd; Will save or Lose, no SR, defeats invisibility ... if you know where to place it - a Bat familiar for the Blindsense comes in handy, here; familiar tells you which square to put the Glitterdust in)
Stinking Cloud (3rd; Fort save or Lose, no SR)
Resilient Sphere (Reflex save or Lose, affects incorporeal critters)
Note: You can actually get all three Save-or-Lose effects in 2nd level spell slots, and have them all be no-SR to boot. Glitterdust, Web, and Cloud of Bewilderment (Spell Compendium) are all SR: no, area-effect, save-or-lose Conjouration spells. Heighten is so they don't become obsoleted by growing saves.
No-save: you're mostly looking at Wall spells here - Wall of Stone or Wall of Force (although Wall of Stone has a pesky limiter, if you stop and read the spell description). However, Solid Fog (and it's big brother, Acid Fog) is a good contender as well.
You'll also need at least a little direct-damage, of course.

Since I'm playing with a Conjurer I don't really need to worry about Clouds all that much--and there's always Shadow Conjuration. But then Web...any other AoE REF save-or-lose spells out there? Could have sworn I saw one that also did damage during my many searches for good spells.


I'd probably be inclined to drop Scorching Ray, myself. I would need to re-read Ray of Stupidity before deciding, though, to see whether or not Ray of Stupidity can actually drop someone to 0 Int.

It can. It deals ability damage, not an ability penalty, and nowhere on the spell is it said that it can't reduce INT to 0.

Okay, revised spell list.

[Total Spells Known]

9xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Mage Hand, Message

5xL1: Nerveskitter, Silent Image, Charm Person, Lesser Orb of Fire/True Strike (L8), Grease

5xL2: Wings of Cover, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility (put Web into this list, maybe?)

4xL3: Shivering Touch, Great Thunderclap, Haste or Phantom Steed, Melf's
Unicorn Arrow or Shadow Conjuration/Melf's Unicorn Arrow (L14)

4xL4: Celerity, Evard's Black Tentacles/Ruin Delver's Fortune (L12), Assay Spell Resistance or Lower Spell Resistance, Wings of Flurry

4xL5: Arcane Fusion, Teleport or Shadow Evocation/Arc of Lightning (L16), Telekinesis, Draconic Polymorph

3xL6: Freezing Fog, Freezing Glance, Disintegrate or Howling Chain

3xL7: Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Teleport

3xL8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Polymorph Any Object (put Deadly Lahar somewhere into this list)

3xL9: Time Stop, Shapechange, Maw of Chaos

Jack_Simth
2011-01-07, 09:15 PM
In that case, that only leaves the issue of which 7th level spell to drop.Heh, yeah, picking spells known is always a pain, isn't it? If your DM likes Dragon Compendium, you might consider picking up the Penumbra Bloodline feat - you've got Evard's Black Tentacles, Shadow Evocation, and Greater Shadow Evocation on your list; one feat gets you all three (plus several others, like Shadow Walk and Plane Shift, which can mostly replace Teleport). You don't really have much (if anything) in the way of Light spells on your list, so you don't really lose anything for it, and it really frees up your options. Costs a feat, though, and you don't get many of those.
Since I'm playing with a Conjurer I don't really need to worry about Clouds all that much--and there's always Shadow Conjuration. But then Web...any other AoE REF save-or-lose spells out there? Could have sworn I saw one that also did damage during my many searches for good spells.Re-read Wings of Flurry. It's already on your list. Reflex save or Stun. Only one round, but get Extend Spell, and it's now two in a 5th level slot.
It can. It deals ability damage, not an ability penalty, and nowhere on the spell is it said that it can't reduce INT to 0.Quite the keeper, then.

Anyway... have fun. And remember: The point of the game is not to be fully optimal: It's to have fun.

Bang!
2011-01-07, 09:24 PM
Shadow Orbs lose all the good parts of Orbs.
EDIT:
Greater Shadow Conjuration is still a pretty nice spell though. Just not in that niche.

kme
2011-01-07, 10:21 PM
First off, I see that you plan your whole 20 levels. This may be redundant, but you should check with your DM first what will be the expected highest level you will get during the campaign. Also, while the final list may be complete you will see that it is pretty hard to decide in what order to pick your spells while you are still lower level. Some spells are also so much more useful at lower levels to justify skipping them for the sake of long term cost.

Concerning your current spell list.
Lvl 1: Both True Strike and Silent Image can be used via wand. You also probably wont spend even 20 charges of those wands. Lesser Orb of fire is unnecessary, if something is immune to spells better spend your actions buffing. If nothing else Magic Missile can at least autohit and deals force damage when you face low hp incorporeals. Take blockade, instant diversion, sticky floor or even color spray (good at low levels and decent with sculpt spell even later on)

Lvl 2: Alter self is pretty meh, you probably wont use it more then a couple of times. At lower levels it' usually not worth an action/spell slot later on its combat benefits become irrelevant. Buy a hat of disguise instead. Ray of stupidity is extremely situational (basically only against animals) unless you abuse it which will lead to bad things. Take glitterdust at all costs, it will literally be your best spell for a long time especially if you add sculpt spell. Mirror image is also such a great defensive spell that I would not skip it so easily. Web and cloud of bewilderment are also great as mentioned by Jack Simth but they can interfere with your party too (sculpt spell is your friend).

Lvl 3: Shadow Conjuration is a 4th level spell and it's pretty meh, you would be better off with major image even if it were a 3rd spell. Great thunderclap is pretty underwhelming at lower levels when you still care about spell slots, sculpted glitterdust will almost always be better. At higher levels it may be useful since it provides a slightly higher chance of buying you that one round. Haste on the other hand is always good, whenever you end up in a situation where enemies are spread out or for whatever reason casting some of your offensive spells just doesn't seem optimal you will love having it (much better then say, lesser orb of fire). Shivering touch is obviously powerful, but it requires a melee touch (reach spell is +2, although still worth it in this case) and your DM will hate you and be sure that he will adjust his encounters so his monsters don't get one shoted with this. Fireball for all the hate it gets will actually be pretty decent in a lot of situations, having it (or something similar) is always nice.

Lvl 4: Celerity is situational if you don't have some sort of daze immunity and you already have wings of cover to somewhat compensate. Personally I wouldn't take in a normal campaign but it can be good. Ruin Delver's Fortune is also somewhat redundant. Wings of flurry is strangely worded, it is implied that the effect is centered on you but it's range is listed as 30. It also not clear if it affects everyone or only those designated by you (it's a burst spell an those don't offer specific targets). See with your DM how would he rule it, depending on his ruling you may find that you won't be able to cast it that easily. It's a definitely a powerful spell though. On the other hand Enervation is very useful and unique in it's effect, I wouldn't skip it. Defenestrating sphere is also fun.

Lvl 5: Arcane fusion is kinda bad, it takes a spell known and one of the spells must be lvl 1 (basically only grease or charm person), I wouldn't take t. Arc lightning is just bad, fireball will be better in a lot of cases. If you want a cool lightning spell take Lightning leap.

Lvl 6: These are good, if you swap something lvl 4 for solid fog you may take howling chain here but it's ok.

lvl 7: I would take Limited wish instead of greater shadow conjuration (and this would also lessen your need for GSE somewhat) but it's up to you. If you take teleport at level 5 (just cast it twice if you mishap) you can save a spell known here and having teleport at levels 10-11 is nice.

Lvl 8: Greater arcane fusion is much better then its lower level brother but it still takes a spell known slot. It combos really well with arcane spellsurge if you want to nova. GSE will either make you happy or sad, depending on how they roll their will saves, or your DMs ruling. PAO is nice for utility but is it really needed, it depends on your style. If you abuse it you will be hated by everyone. These are solid choices but you can probably skip them and you won't really notice.

Lvl 9: Nothing beats Timestop and Shapechange :smallcool:. I would take Maw of Chaos before Iceberg for blasting but iceberg can be like a time stop for the whole party against some enemies (as can a solid fog).

This turned out to be much longer then I expected...

Edit: ok I was ninjaed but most of this should still apply. Also Dimension Door is good :smalltongue:.

Rasman
2011-01-07, 11:07 PM
Current Spells Known (at level 3):

5xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Light, Daze, Ghost Sound

3xL1: Grease, Charm Person, Snilloc's Snowball



Daze may be useful at low levels, but you'll find that at high levels it is kinda pointless. I would replace it with the Cantrip "Launch Bolt" which let's you fight at range and you don't need a weapon. Plus if you can get a hold of special ammunition, like Drow Poison Bolts you gain some utility and don't have to blow spells on weak monsters. I'd also drop Light and take Dancing Lights in its place. Dancing Lights has better utility, especially if you take Ghost Sound and you can use it as a light source if needed.

Snilloc's Snowball is nice and all, but I'd really suggest Orb of Sound, Lesser in its place. The damage still scales with level and FAR fewer creatures are going to have resistance to Sonic Damage. Or if you wanted, you could go with Orb of Fire, Lesser and combo it with Grease on a target to light Goblins and such on fire...that's always fun...



Total Spells Known (edit: this is a projected possible spell list at level 20) :

9xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Mending, Message


Read Magic is always a must, imo. You never know when you'll run into a Divine Scroll or writing that you need to read. Detect Poison is too situational, I'd probably replace it with Read Magic or Mage Hand.



5xL1: Nerveskitter, Silent Image, Charm Person, Snilloc's Snowball (replaced with Magic Missile at level 8), Grease


My only other objection is Nerveskitter, it's a nice spell, but not worth the slot. Feather Fall, Truestrike or Ray of Enfeeblement would serve you MUCH better in the long run.



5xL2: Wings of Cover, Alter Self, Scorching Ray, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility


I actually really like your spell selection here. Ray of Stupidity laughs at animals, Scorching Ray and Grease laugh at lots of things and Wings of Cover is just an AWESOME second level spell.



4xL3: Shivering Touch, Great Thunderclap, Phantom Steed or Fly (I can't decide which), Shadow Conjuration (replaced with Assay Spell Resistance at level 14)

Go with Phantom Steed, it's much better in the long run. Props to you for being willing to get close enough to use Shivering Touch, but it'll start getting harder and harder to use as you get higher in level, I'd probably keep Shadow Conjuration and drop ST in it's place.



4xL4: Celerity, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Greater Mirror Image, Wings of Flurry

Celerity is an excellent choice, Ruin Delver's Fortune can make a DM cry that you didn't get poisoned because...you can't be, Greater Mirror Image is just awesome beyond words and Wings of Flurry is...it just is. All excellent choices.



4xL5: Arcane Fusion, Shadow Evocation (replaced with Magic Jar at level 16), Telekinesis, Draconic Polymorph


Arcane Fusion is a Sorc Standard. Again, I'd still say keep Shadow Evocation since it and Shadow Conjuration GREATLY expand the amount of spells a Sorcerer has access to, although Magic Jar would be hard to pass on, thus I'd actually probably drop Draconic Polymorph in it's place.



3xL6: Freezing Fog, Freezing Glance, Greater Dispel Magic

Nothing really to say here, good choices



3xL7: Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Teleport


A small warning about Arcane Spellsurge, if this is a Pathfinder game, then it doesn't work with a Sorcerer apparently. Something about how Sorcerer's apply metamagic to spells. Now that I see you have Greater Shadow Conjuration, you can ignore what I said about the other forms.



3xL8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Polymorph Any Object

3xL9: Time Stop, Shapechange, Maw of Chaos

Well, your upper level spells feel pretty solid, but don't ignore your low level stuff. Remember that if you take the Phantom Steed, Featherfall is a must since the Steed can be shot out from under you, BUT it's always better it than you.

Overall, good spell selection and good research by you, now just remember to have fun with it.

Feather Sigil
2011-01-08, 01:25 AM
Whew...so much to take into consideration. ><

Okay, I think I've got it now.

[Total Spells Known]

9xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Launch Bolt, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Mage Hand, Message

5xL1: Nerveskitter, Silent Image, Charm Person, Lesser Orb of Fire (replaced with True Strike at level 8), Grease

5xL2: Wings of Cover, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility

4xL3: Haste, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud (will find something to replace it, maybe Icelance so I can still have a Fort save-or-lose, if my party's Conjurer has Stinking Cloud or plans to get it), Melf's Unicorn Arrow or Fireball (can't decide)

On the one hand, Fireball is much more powerful and an AoE, not to mention iconic. On the other hand, Melf's Unicorn Arrow is a (rather weak but pretty cool) no-save (Fireball has a REF save), no-SR (Fireball is subject to SR) untyped damage (fire resistance is common, so I hear) attack that also has a little bit of crowd/battlefield control since the arrows can push their targets back.

4xL4: Celerity, Evard's Black Tentacles (replaced with Enervation at level 12), Assay Spell Resistance or Lower Spell Resistance (can't decide), Wings of Flurry

ASR is a swift action, LSR is a full-round action.
ASR lasts 1 round per level while LSR lasts 1 minute per level.
ASR gives you +10 on caster level checks while LSR reduces the target's spell resistance by up to 15.
ASR doesn't offer a saving throw but LSR does, though the target receives a penalty on the saving throw equal to your caster level (makes you wonder why they bothered with the save).

I'm leaning towards ASR.

4xL5: Arcane Fusion, Telekinesis or Teleport, Draconic Might, Draconic Polymorph

It may sound like a question with an obvious answer given what it is in flavour but really, just how useful is Telekinesis as manifest in D&D?

3xL6: Freezing Fog, Freezing Glance, Greater Dispel Magic

3xL7: Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Arcane Sight (might get something else instead; not sure yet)

3xL8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Deadly Lahar

3xL9: Time Stop, Shapechange, Maw of Chaos

Rasman
2011-01-08, 02:06 AM
Whew...so much to take into consideration. ><

Okay, I think I've got it now.

[Total Spells Known]

9xL0: , Launch Bolt, Dancing Lights,

5xL1: Nerveskitter, Lesser Orb of Fire (replaced with True Strike at level 8), Grease

4xL3: Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud (will find something to replace it, maybe Icelance so I can still have a Fort save-or-lose, if my party's Conjurer has Stinking Cloud or plans to get it), Melf's Unicorn Arrow or Fireball (can't decide)

On the one hand, Fireball is much more powerful and an AoE, not to mention iconic. On the other hand, Melf's Unicorn Arrow is a (rather weak but pretty cool) no-save (Fireball has a REF save), no-SR (Fireball is subject to SR) untyped damage (fire resistance is common, so I hear) attack that also has a little bit of crowd/battlefield control since the arrows can push their targets back.

4xL4: Assay Spell Resistance or Lower Spell Resistance (can't decide)

ASR is a swift action, LSR is a full-round action.
ASR lasts 1 round per level while LSR lasts 1 minute per level.
ASR gives you +10 on caster level checks while LSR reduces the target's spell resistance by up to 15.
ASR doesn't offer a saving throw but LSR does, though the target receives a penalty on the saving throw equal to your caster level (makes you wonder why they bothered with the save).

I'm leaning towards ASR.

3xL7: Greater Arcane Sight (might get something else instead; not sure yet)

3xL8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Deadly Lahar


Glad you liked the suggestions of Launch Bolt and Dancing Lights :D

After thinking about Phantom Steed, it occured to me that it'd be just as easy to have a Ring of Feather Fall or the One-Shot item, I believe it's a Brooch of some sort, in place of this.

In place of Stinking Cloud, consider Anticipate Teleport. It basically gives you a chance, one round, to know EXACTLY where something is going to teleport in near you and it also delays anything teleporting in or out by one round, but they don't realize it. It gives you a shot at throwing up something like Fog Cloud, Cloud Kill, Prismatic Wall, etc. It also works on Summons, so Summoners are gimped by just being near you.

If you don't like that, Protection from Energy is a staple.

Another to think about is Disobedience. It's a Cheaper and Better version of Mind Blank. Look it up and you'll see what I mean.

I'd honestly go with Fireball. It has disadvantages, but it is as Iconic as it gets and there are always creatures with bad Reflex saves. Just don't use it on the Army of Monks and you'll be fine.

LSR is nice, but ASR just trumps it with it being a swift action. Go ASR.

Want an awesome replacement for Arcane Eyes, get Stun Ray. I had a Sorcerer Build that basically made Stun Ray a save or die because of taking levels in Spellwarp Sniper and the feat Dastardly Strike, which allows you to Coup de Grace cowering or STUNNED creatures. Even if they make their save, they're still stunned for one round and that can be ALL it takes.

If you drop an 8th level spell, take Prismatic Wall. It might be my favorite save or die. It is ESPECIALLY potent when you take the feat Invisible Spell from, I believe, Cityscape. Invisible Prismatic Wall and taunt away. When in an enclosed space like a hall or dungeon, this is CRAZY deadly. It may allow SR, but, who cares if you can ASR that down.

true_shinken
2011-01-08, 02:11 AM
I like Silvered Weapon as a cantrip.

Jack DeCoeur
2011-01-08, 02:32 AM
Hmm, you have a very good spell list there, I love playing Sorcerers and a lot of my favourite spells are ones that you've picked up.
My thought, for what it's worth:

Yes, fireball is iconic, but it does overlap pretty heavily with Wings of Flurry (which is strictly better, where the higher level reflects that.) The long range of fireball is very nice, but unless you are very far away you may find yourself using WoF instead of it, plus the SR, Save and Resistances problems you spoke of already.

Like Rasman says, Assay Spell Resistance really rocks with the Swift action casting.

I actually wouldn't swap out Black Tentacles for Enervation, the negative levels are nice, yes, but you have to hit with it (although True Strike helps here) and it allows SR. Whereas Black Tentacles is AoA, no SR and can easily lock down entire combats. Having said this, if the Conjurer in your party picks it up (and I'm guessing they will) you may not need it. I noticed you took Ruin Delver's Fortune off of the list? Any particular reason, I find it a lifesaver and it can be amazingly good if you really focus on CHA, which Sorcerers specialise in.

As for Telekinesis, well, it is a very versatile spell, but you have to remember that whilst concentrating on one spell you can't cast any others without ending it, so any round spent concentrating on Telekinesis, is a round not spent casting more spells. This can be fine, but if you are going for a blaster, it may be a problem for you.

Finally, just a note on Arcane Spellsurge. I assume (having read the various handbooks available) that you know about the problems of running out of swift actions. As such, if you have this spell in play, I'd suggest also having the Heighten spell feat. Cast a spell as a swift action, Heighten a spell and cast it as your standard action, after AS cuts down the extended casting time. It is often suggested that you take a +0 spell like Invisible spell for this (which, incidentally is amazing when combined with Prismatic Wall), but you may find it hard to convince your DM that all spells can be cast Invisibly. There are no such problems with Heighten, plus it pumps save DCs, which is always nice.

Like, I say, great list overall, and I feel I could suggest about 3 lists worth of awesome spells, but you have to settle down somewhere (this is always my problem, constantly changing my mind about my projected lists). As someone else said, as long as you have fun, then it's all good.

Feather Sigil
2011-01-08, 03:04 AM
O_O No way...

No, just...I'm wrong about this. This can't be.

Blood Snow, from Frostburn. The campaign I'm in is a winter one.

Same level as Stinking Cloud. No material component. Same cast time and range. Anything that touches blood snow and fails the FORT save is nauseated and, unlike Stinking Cloud takes CON damage. It doesn't move, unlike Stinking Cloud. It can't be dispersed, unlike Stinking Cloud.

But here's the killer. This thing's area is listed as "20-ft. square of snow/level". Now, if I'm reading that right, that means that for every caster level you have you get to create a 20-ft. square of this thing. Three caster levels means three 20-ft. squares, so this spell pretty much has Sculpt Spell built into it.

The only downsides are that it allows SR and has to be cast on snow but even so. That's absolutely insane. That means it occupies a total of 200 ft at level 10, if I'm reading this right.

Okay, rant over.

@shinken: Which book is that from?

@Rasman: I have a renewable source of Feather Fall so that's already covered.

Eh, Anticipate Teleport is a Batman spell. Sorcerers can't be Batman.

I've heard of Disobedience; which book is it from?

I had my eye on Stun Ray for a little. I'll take another look at that one.

@Jack DeCoeur: The reason I planned to switch out Black Tentacles (I would probably have ended up doing the same to Fireball) is because it becomes redundant when I get Freezing Fog. They're two completely different spells that ultimately accomplish the same thing; if I'm wrong in my assessment feel free to let me know.

I'm still a little on the fence regarding Enervation, especially since Black Tentacles would probably combo well with Freezing Fog. It seems to me that Enervation was really made for metamagic-heavy builds. What I'm going for uses minimal metamagic so I won't be able to make the most of the spell.

I removed Ruin Delver's Fortune (with great reluctance) because it just seemed rather redundant since I have Wings of Cover. Why blow a fourth level slot to gain a save bonus or temporary hp when I can make myself (and others, because my character is a Silverbrow Human. Before any of you mention the kobold supercheese or whatever it is, I know about that stuff) temporarily invincible for a second level slot?

Regarding Arcane Spellsurge, by the time I get that spell I'll already have Energy Substitution, a +0 metamagic. :smallsmile:

Okay, TK is out, Blood Snow is in (even if I'm wrong about that ruling, and after looking at the Firebrand spell I don't think I am, it's still damn good). Now I'm still on the prowl for a good third level spell to possibly replace Fireball (if not forever then once I get WoF) and a good fifth level spell to possibly replace Teleport (most accounts are telling me it's better as an item for Sorcerers).

fracas
2011-01-08, 04:44 AM
Knowstones. Don't know why they haven't been suggested already, but IMHO playing a Sorc without Knowstones is like sitting down to a four hour test without bringing a spare pencil or two. It's just asking for a facepalm when you find the perfect situation for that spell you dumped.

That's the mechanical argument. The fun argument is that pretty much every standard sorc build takes the same super-utility/buff spells like GAF and Haste, and the classic reliable DD like Orb of X. That leaves relatively little variation in builds: that golden core of spells eats up just about your entire list and then some (as you've no doubt noticed). Using Knowstones doesn't greatly increase your power in my experience (although it sure doesn't hurt) but it does greatly increase your ability to do cool, nonstandard, fun things rather than mechanically optimal boring things.

TK may not be mechanically optimal (although you can certainly break it by, say, using it to fire a lumberyard's worth of arrows/ballista bolts/alchemist fires/Holy Hand Grenades of Antioch... or just pouring a bunch of acid/lava/sovereign glue/immovable rods/fiendish baboons/gelatinous cubes/holy or unholy water on someone's head from a bag of holding) but it can do all kinds of fun things. I believe there's a PrC that specializes in it as well, gaining increased control and such.

All in all, one of my favorite spells. You could even use it to catch an enemy in a portable hole, then drop a bag of holding in after him from a safe distance... KABOOM! I don't exactly remember what happens when you put bags of holding and portable holes inside each other, but I remember that it's supposed to be one of those things you do once and then have plenty of time to consider the folly of as you roll up a new character. :p

Rasman
2011-01-08, 07:01 AM
O_O No way...

No, just...I'm wrong about this. This can't be.

Blood Snow, from Frostburn. The campaign I'm in is a winter one.

Same level as Stinking Cloud. No material component. Same cast time and range. Anything that touches blood snow and fails the FORT save is nauseated and, unlike Stinking Cloud takes CON damage. It doesn't move, unlike Stinking Cloud. It can't be dispersed, unlike Stinking Cloud.

But here's the killer. This thing's area is listed as "20-ft. square of snow/level". Now, if I'm reading that right, that means that for every caster level you have you get to create a 20-ft. square of this thing. Three caster levels means three 20-ft. squares, so this spell pretty much has Sculpt Spell built into it.

The only downsides are that it allows SR and has to be cast on snow but even so. That's absolutely insane. That means it occupies a total of 200 ft at level 10, if I'm reading this right.

Okay, rant over.

@shinken: Which book is that from?

@Rasman: I have a renewable source of Feather Fall so that's already covered.

Eh, Anticipate Teleport is a Batman spell. Sorcerers can't be Batman.

I've heard of Disobedience; which book is it from?

I had my eye on Stun Ray for a little. I'll take another look at that one.

@Jack DeCoeur: The reason I planned to switch out Black Tentacles (I would probably have ended up doing the same to Fireball) is because it becomes redundant when I get Freezing Fog. They're two completely different spells that ultimately accomplish the same thing; if I'm wrong in my assessment feel free to let me know.

I'm still a little on the fence regarding Enervation, especially since Black Tentacles would probably combo well with Freezing Fog. It seems to me that Enervation was really made for metamagic-heavy builds. What I'm going for uses minimal metamagic so I won't be able to make the most of the spell.

I removed Ruin Delver's Fortune (with great reluctance) because it just seemed rather redundant since I have Wings of Cover. Why blow a fourth level slot to gain a save bonus or temporary hp when I can make myself (and others, because my character is a Silverbrow Human. Before any of you mention the kobold supercheese or whatever it is, I know about that stuff) temporarily invincible for a second level slot?

Regarding Arcane Spellsurge, by the time I get that spell I'll already have Energy Substitution, a +0 metamagic. :smallsmile:

Okay, TK is out, Blood Snow is in (even if I'm wrong about that ruling, and after looking at the Firebrand spell I don't think I am, it's still damn good). Now I'm still on the prowl for a good third level spell to possibly replace Fireball (if not forever then once I get WoF) and a good fifth level spell to possibly replace Teleport (most accounts are telling me it's better as an item for Sorcerers).

Blood Snow is OP in a Snow Campaign...and if you're a druid...I just killed the better part of a Goblin army with it and Blizzard.

Disobedience is out of Complete Scoundrel and it would be a good replacement for Fireball.

As for a 5th level spell, look at Spell Theft, I believe it's out of Complete Scoundrel as well. Cloud Kill will help make Blood Snow work faster. Dominate Person is always awesome for "I need someone else stupid enough to do this for me."

Feather Sigil
2011-01-08, 10:20 AM
Knowstones.

Knowstones are from Dragon Magazine, are they not? Unfortunately, my DM banned everything from that magazine. :smallfrown:


TK may not be mechanically optimal but it can do all kinds of fun things.

True. Also, combine TK with Charm Person and you've got yourself a Jedi. Maybe I'm getting a little caught up in optimization. I was considering getting some skill tricks--my character has ranks in Disguise (Silverbrow Human) and Bluff; some of them could be pretty neat to use. But then I asked myself if they were worth losing points in my class skills for.

I dunno. It's my first Sorcerer and the DM warned us that it would be a dangerous campaign...but then it's not like I'm replicating a crazy OP build to begin with.




Disobedience is out of Complete Scoundrel and it would be a good replacement for Fireball.

As for a 5th level spell, look at Spell Theft, I believe it's out of Complete Scoundrel as well. Cloud Kill will help make Blood Snow work faster. Dominate Person is always awesome for "I need someone else stupid enough to do this for me."

Thanks for the recommendations. I particularly like Spell Theft (and it's a no-SR!). It makes a good alternative to Greater Dispel Magic, so now that slot is potentially free for something else.

[Total Spells Known]

9xL0: Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, Launch Bolt, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Mage Hand, Message

5xL1: Nerveskitter, Silent Image, Charm Person, Lesser Orb of Fire/True Strike (level 8), Grease

5xL2: Wings of Cover, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity, Invisibility

4xL3: Haste, Phantom Steed, Blood Snow, Fireball/Disobedience (level ??)

4xL4: Celerity, Evard's Black Tentacles/Orb of Force (level ??), Assay Spell Resistance, Wings of Flurry

(WoF and OoF might seem a bit redundant with each other, and maybe they are. Then again, AoE vs. single target, SR vs. no-SR and one is a REF save-or-lose)

4xL5: Arcane Fusion, Telekinesis or Spell Theft, Draconic Might, Draconic Polymorph

3xL6: Freezing Fog, Freezing Glance, Greater Dispel Magic or ???

3xL7: Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Arcane Sight or ???

3xL8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Deadly Lahar or Polymorph Any Object

3xL9: Time Stop, Shapechange, Iceberg

I'm not entirely convinced that Maw of Chaos is necessarily worse than Iceberg, but I can't pass up the opportunity to drop a freakin' iceberg on someone's head...and house...and town...:smallbiggrin:

At least in this new version all my bases (damage, anticaster, anti-invisibility, buff, debuff, utility, defense, CC, every kind of save-or-lose) are covered. Now I just need a good offensive spell that bypasses SR and is not an Orb. Then again, if I'm still going to replace Black Tentacles once I get Freezing Fog, that frees up a 4th level slot...

Edit: Spectral Hand...Shivering Touch...:smallsigh: Here we go again.

kme
2011-01-08, 11:52 AM
Concerning your final list.

lvl 1: True Strike is better then orb of fire, you can at least use it to justify casting arcane fusion.

lvl 2: I would take scorching ray over ray of stupidity, it will be useful in 3rd + rounds of every combat while ray of stupidity will win some combats on its own while being useless in others.

lvl 3: Disobedience is extremely situational, you may end up using this spell less then 5 times during the whole campaign, better not fail that save in a first place. Fireball can be used in every encounter and will be especially useful since it will deal 50% more dmg in a frostburn campaign.

lvl 4: Orb of Force is redundant as you said, especially since you have Assay spell resistance. Melf's Unicorn Arrow is better in every way if you want something similar. Evard's Black Tentacles is absolutely beautiful at lower levels, but later it loses effectiveness due to higher strength of enemies. Swap it later for Dimension Door or Enervation (it is good even without heavy metamagic, it can deal 4 negative levels by default or 6 with only empower and it also stacks with itself)

lvl 5: I would take telekinesis, it's just more versatile, Spell Theft can be abused if you steal personal buffs of your cleric buddy or something but it is too situational otherwise. Draconic Might will be made redundant with equipment and it has too low duration to be used as a reliable buff.

lvl 6: Greater dispel magic can be skipped if you have other casters but it's not a bad choice regardless.

lvl 7: Greater Arcane Sight will usually not be worth a standard action, I would rather try to get normal arcane sight with permanency (use scrolls). Limited wish is still there :smalltongue:.

lvl 8: PAO or Deadly Lahar. I say decide later when you get a feel of the campaign. DL will be more then usually useful in a cold campaign.

Feather Sigil
2011-01-08, 01:01 PM
1. Oh, right, I forgot to format the list. When I have two spells connected by a / and a level listed, it means I'm going to replace the spell on the left with the spell on the right at the designated level. So once I reach level 8 (I could do it as early as level 6, really) and have better offensive spells I'll switch Lesser Orb of Fire for True Strike.

2. Hmmm...

3. See #1. I had planned to replace Fireball once I get WoF since it would be redundant (but then there might be a way for the DM to beat Force damage...). But wouldn't a lot of creatures in a winter campaign have fire resistance, which is already a common resistance?

If it's not something worth being concerned about...maybe I should just keep Fireball...

4. Hmmm....well, perhaps Dimension Door since I don't have a Teleport spell.

5. When I first acquire Draconic Might, assuming I pick it as my first 5th level spell (which I wouldn't, but just saying), it would have a duration of 120 rounds. That's too short a duration? :smallconfused: Haste doesn't last nearly as long.

Oh, wait. It's an enhancement bonus. Byebye Draconic Might, hello Telekinesis.

Well, if I were to get rid of Greater Dispel Magic at least Spell Theft would be a nice complement, no? If not, hmmm...now that I look again, L5 is my only spell level that doesn't have a direct way of killing things.

6. Any suggestions for a replacement to Greater Dispel Magic?

7. That is true; I had momentarily forgotten about Limited Wish.

8. Yeah, that's a long-term choice as it is.

kme
2011-01-08, 01:50 PM
3. See #1. I had planned to replace Fireball once I get WoF since it would be redundant (but then there might be a way for the DM to beat Force damage...). But wouldn't a lot of creatures in a winter campaign have fire resistance, which is already a common resistance?

If it's not something worth being concerned about...maybe I should just keep Fireball... Well, I already mentioned the ambiguous wording of WoF. If your DM rules that it's a spell centered on you and it affects everyone in the area you may even want to skip it completely. The effect is surely powerful tough so IDK. As for fireball, it will always have that big range and easy aiming. Despite its not that great effect it has that ease of use and can be applied in any situation where you just don't know what to cast. I don't know why you expect cold monsters to have fire resistance, I would expect them to have fire vulnerability :smalltongue:.

4. Hmmm....well, perhaps Dimension Door since I don't have a Teleport spell.

5. When I first acquire Draconic Might, assuming I pick it as my first 5th level spell (which I wouldn't, but just saying), it would have a duration of 120 rounds. That's too short a duration? :smallconfused: Haste doesn't last nearly as long.

Oh, wait. It's an enhancement bonus. Byebye Draconic Might, hello Telekinesis.

Well, if I were to get rid of Greater Dispel Magic at least Spell Theft would be a nice complement, no? If not, hmmm...now that I look again, L5 is my only spell level that doesn't have a direct way of killing things.

6. Any suggestions for a replacement to Greater Dispel Magic?
You can drop spell theft and pick teleport or you can drop Greater dispel magic. Here are some suggestions without much research on my part (SpC,core). Imbue familiar with spell ability, superior resistance, fleshshiver, howling chain, tunnel swallow, disintegrate, wall of iron, forceful hand, planar binding.

As for GDM vs Spell Theft I would say GDM is better. The buffs that you take may not be that beneficial to you and GDM can target area or items, counterspell and more importantly dispel negative buffs on your allies. Spell Theft has one benefit, it allows you to instantly know what spells are affecting the target. I say leave this one for wizard but now that I think about it a lot of things can be left for wizard. Maybe you should check his prohibited schools.

Jack DeCoeur
2011-01-08, 02:40 PM
Concerning your final list...
[cut]
I say decide later when you get a feel of the campaign.

This is something important to keep in mind. Whilst it is nice to have a full list worked out, I almost guarantee you'll end up changing it once the campaign gets underway.

One campaign I played I swore blind, right from the very beginning that I would never pick up Teleport. When I realised just how big the campaign world we were playing in was, I picked it up as my first 5th level spell known.

I suspect we could write and re-write your spell list from now until the cows come home, but the best thing to do may be to really nail down your starting spell list and try to feel it out from there. Have a good, rough list, yes, but be prepared to deviate from it (to a greater, or lesser degree).

It seems you have a really solid understanding of what spells are out there, and your list is very good already, the rest comes down to tweaking, something that can really only be done once you see what kind of stuff you're going to be dealing with, and, indeed, what the other casters in your party are bringing to the table.

Malachei
2011-01-10, 03:05 AM
A very interesting thread. I could not resist to add a comment.

First of all, given the dangerous nature of the campaign, a progression up to level 20 may be in vain -- I tend to plan my characters ahead, as well, so you might be doing it for the fun of it.

As others have pointed out, the campaign may impact the effectiveness of certain spells and tactics. Thus, your list is likely to change.

Finally, from level 12 on, there is the possibility of expanding your spell selection with runestaffs (MIC).

Regarding the individual spells picked:

I'd never play a high-level caster without GDM. I think it is essential. So is Limited Wish. Never mind the XP cost, at this level, you can afford it.

I like themed casters. If you go Frost Mage, I'd assume you don't have a strong tendency towards [fire] spells. There's no RAW on it, but I'd say the Frost Mages don't like to train someone in the finer secrets of snowcasting who is prone to throwing Fireballs all day long.

And if both arcane casters survive, the conjurer will probably be casting Black Tentacles before you can. You might want the overlap, because it is a powerful spell, or you might spend one of your precious slots for another great 4th level spell.

In your selection, I miss a spell that grants you a decent level of protection not based on an illusion (higher-level enemies will be able to see through). Wings of Cover is excellent, but may not be covering every situation. You may want to take a look at Etherealness or Ethereal Jaunt (though these will almost completely hinder your offensive options), Greater Blink, etc.

Personally, for a Frost Mage, I'd pick up As the Frost (PHB2) for a 7th level slot.

If you take Celerity, consider Foresight. Many will hate you for it, though.

Of course, as one poster has pointed out, if you start to one-shot monsters with (empowered, split-ray, twinned etc.) rays of stupidity or (reached) touches of idiocy, I will hate you, as well. :)

Feather Sigil
2011-01-10, 09:29 AM
Looking back on it I realize I've gone too far with regards to optimization--to the point where I've begun to lose sight of what I was originally trying to do.

That doesn't mean the advice you've all given me was for naught; it wasn't and I appreciate every bit of it. Thanks to you all I've gained great insight into spell selection--how to properly determine the difference between "good" and "worth it", how to properly analyze the potential of a spell. Last night I built what is probably the most optimized list I could with the books I have available...:smallsigh: but I can't use it. I need to take another look at all this.


Of course, as one poster has pointed out, if you start to one-shot monsters with (empowered, split-ray, twinned etc.) rays of stupidity or (reached) touches of idiocy, I will hate you, as well. :)

Good thing I had my epiphany, then. Wait...dammit! :smalltongue:

fracas
2011-01-10, 04:41 PM
Now I'm curious about your super-optimized list. Care to share? :)

Too bad about the Knowstones (yes, they are from Dragon Mag)... the way sorcs get treated, you'd think they insulted WOTC's mother. They're already far weaker than wizards (sorcs' only advantages are spells per day and spontaneous casting... spells/day don't matter much after around 9th level unless you have no way to rest (in which case you just cast rope trick/tiny hit/magic fortress/whatever), and wizards can effectively surpass spontaneous casting and spells/day with a wide selection of wands, scrolls, etc (see the Batman Wizard)... this leaves sorcs with a delayed casting progression, very little capability to get new spells, and no free scribe scrolls feat). Also, I like nested parentheses. :)

Anywho, I'd ask your DM about accepting Knowstones. As other posters already pointed out, you could already completely break the game if you wanted with metamagic debuffs, insane damage via practical metamagic and incantatrix, or just really good play with basic spells. Golems may be immune to magic, but they still won't like it if you turn the ground under their feed into mud, then back to stone.

Knowstones aren't your road to crazy power, because you already have it. They're just a way to increase your chances of doing something fun and cool at any given time.

Malachei
2011-01-11, 02:25 AM
Knowstones are not allowed, because Dragon magazine was not listed as a possible source. I don't think it is fair to rule out a source and then allow it on a case-by-case basis. I also think you can build a great sorcerer without knowstones -- they're still an arcane caster and not at the end of the foodchain. Also, as runestaffs are allowed, they can solve the issue.


the way sorcs get treated, you'd think they insulted WOTC's mother.

:) I agree that over the course of a campaign, a wizard will be much stronger. However, sorcerers are still more flexible (and, unless using specific non-core feats or ACF, wizards find it hard emulate this flexibility). Sorcerers see a lot more play in play-by-post, IMO, because of this flexibility and because of reduced administration. Finally, with the ACF and feats to reduce the casting time of metamagic'ed spells and with some really strong sorcerer-only spells, IMO, the wizard's advantage has been reduced a bit (although, arguably, it there's still some). I have a houserule allowing sorcerers to take a feat that grants them their ability modifier as a bonus to spells known. But as this game is pretty much standard 3.5, it does not apply. As Psydon's sorcerer is going for Frost Mage, she will have an increase of spells known anyway.

fracas
2011-01-11, 03:02 AM
I don't see a problem with banning certain material in general but allowing bits here and there. In fact, D&D is all about general rules setting a broad precedent that is then trumped by a list of specific exceptions. :)

Sorcs are definitely powerful without them - like I said, they can be game breaking with nothing but the PHB. Knowstones just offer a bit more variety, given that you're already choosing not to use Real Ultimate Power just because you're a nice guy (well, and to avoid game meltdown/DM smackdown).

Runestaves help, but they're later level (isn't this character starting at lvl 3 or 4 in a potentially low survivability game?) and pricey.

I've never played PbP but I'll take your word for it. I love sorcs for the low administration time and player-friendly flexibility. The wages of wizard-playing is accountancy, and lots of us would prefer death. :p

That seems to be WOTC's take too. You generally pay for simple character sheets with weak characters (exotic builds and high op levels aside). A fighter can generally outlast a barb and do a wider variety of cool things, but then you have to manage feats that are less self-explanatory whereas barbs can just take random feats that say Rage somewhere in the title, grab something big and pointy, and rest assured they'll do solid damage at least till the upper mid levels.

WOTC thought sorcs needed nerfing, but we all know CODzilla and even core codzilla are far more scary than any sorc build. They're tougher, have better saves, more versatility, and more variability... especially druids. The Polymorph spell that we call cheese on the arcane list is basically a class ability for druids. No planar shepherd needed to make that a scary proposition... especially with Natural Spell.

Dang mosquito won't leave me alo- *spellcraft* YOU'RE SUMMONING A VERMIN SWARM IN MY EAR CANAL!? Man, don't anyone tell druids about those brain slugs from Wrath of Khan. :p

Your house rule strikes me as a great idea - will implement it or something like it next time I run a game. I already house rule that sorcs get the same casting progression as every other full caster. They were already the least in need of nerfing.

I don't follow char op that closely - what major spells are sorc only? I'll grant you the Wizard advantage has diminished, but as far as I know the delayed casting progression can only be offset by kobold cheese that guarantees a DMG suppository to all who would attempt to use it (although if someone tried to get just the wizard casting progression without also attempting a free +3 to all mental stats it might go over a bit better... taking two feats for wizard progression seems more than reasonable to me).

Kinda sad that one of the best ways of getting new sorc spells is by taking levels that aren't sorcerer. I believe the Sandshaper from Sandstorm is the usual first choice for getting spells known, but whatever works. It'd be funny if she took a level of Sandshaper and then went into frost mage. She could create unseasonal blizzards, then sand the roads to prevent civilian casualties.

If she did that she should apply for a job with the Texas DOT... man, you wouldn't believe how many accidents we get when there's an inch of snow on the ground. Universities shut down in terror. As a native Minnesotan, I get a great kick out of how quickly Texas machismo evaporates in the presence of a little slush... and how their giant trucks utterly fail to keep them out of ditches. :D

Malachei
2011-01-11, 03:59 AM
I don't see a problem with banning certain material in general but allowing bits here and there. In fact, D&D is all about general rules setting a broad precedent that is then trumped by a list of specific exceptions. :)

I see a big problem with asking people to build characters for a play-by-post and then changing the rules on the fly. This game had 17 submitted character sheets. I think it is unfair to ask one person to build his/her character using a specific set of sources, and then allowing another person to use additional sources.

With access to every official 3.5 book (excluding three types of sources: Dragon, Dungeon, and everything psionic), whoever has problems building a strong character he/she is happy with would probably not be happy in the game.


Runestaves help, but they're later level (isn't this character starting at lvl 3 or 4 in a potentially low survivability game?) and pricey.

I actually think Runestaffs are underpriced. My wizard loves them.


but we all know CODzilla and even core codzilla are far more scary

Yes. I think one of the main reasons why WOTC did not nerf clerics/druids is because the divine caster role has always been hard to fill. Maybe they thought if they make it the strongest classes in the game, more people will take play them.


and rest assured they'll do solid damage at least till the upper mid levels.

In fact, I have yet to see an arcane caster break my game. I am running a high-level / epic game, and, of course, the arcane caster would be much harder to kill, but the melee character's offensive contribution is still on par. But maybe I am blessed with fine players.


I already house rule that sorcs get the same casting progression as every other full caster.

Then I'd say you don't need the other houserule. Be careful not to make the sorcerer the teacher's pet in your game (unless you wish to, of course).


what major spells are sorc only?

Have a look at Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic.


WOTC thought sorcs needed nerfing

I am afraid I disagree. WOTC seriously nerfed wizards (and, by nerfing spells, affected aspects of the sorcerer, as well).

However, they have subsequently reduced one of the main disadvantages of the sorcerer: the increased casting time for metamagic can now be easily avoided with ACF or feats. This is a massive improvement, and also fixes the quicken spell issue. Or you cast Arcane Fusion. Arcane Spellsurge is another spell tailor-made with sorcerers in mind.

fracas
2011-01-11, 06:20 AM
I see a big problem with asking people to build characters for a play-by-post and then changing the rules on the fly. This game had 17 submitted character sheets. I think it is unfair to ask one person to build his/her character using a specific set of sources, and then allowing another person to use additional sources.

With access to every official 3.5 book (excluding three types of sources: Dragon, Dungeon, and everything psionic), whoever has problems building a strong character he/she is happy with would probably not be happy in the game.

Ahh, fair enough. I missed the PbP part. Our games are usually a lot more informal - the general rule the current DM uses is that we should stay core unless we really want something outside core. I picked up DMM for my cleric since we tend to have massive use for persistent buffs (wonderful when you get ambushed at night and your fly and divine power spells are still up), I advised the (low-op) sorcerer to go into Incantatrix and pick up Practical Empower (to be traded out later for Practical Maximize) so she'd be able to blast better. I guess I was under the impression that there was something similar in place here.

I think core non-casters get a bit dull, which is why I almost always play casters, but yeah - nobody should need those last three sources to enjoy the game. I just think Knowstones are a neat option and a cheap way to make a traditionally limited-versatility class a bit more open-ended. It's not necessary, but it's nice.


I actually think Runestaffs are underpriced. My wizard loves them.

Maybe they're priced below the potential power they offer, but that doesn't make them cheap especially in a low level game.


Yes. I think one of the main reasons why WOTC did not nerf clerics/druids is because the divine caster role has always been hard to fill. Maybe they thought if they make it the strongest classes in the game, more people will take play them.

Agreed, but I think they goofed by making most of the divine casters' power dependent on high-op gameplay and building. A base cleric is incredibly power if used properly, but in my experience most players make silly mistakes that lead to them being generally weaker than the noncasters. Specifically, a lot of players I know actually take three or four rounds of buffing time once a battle starts (especially in core where DMM isn't available). Or, just as bad, they cast healing spells in combat (and why not? if they haven't done the math, that's implicitly encouraged by giving clerics special abilities in those areas). Or they blow turn attempts against powerful undead with turn resistance.

Optimizers already knew how to make clerics powerful - they didn't need to be thrown a bone. If WOTC wants Clerics to get more playtime, they need to be made more appealing to casual players who don't want to be healbots. I guess that's what they did in 4e, but I'm not really a fan of that system. Bleh... if I wanted to play Magic or WoW, I'd buy them. And even in 4e a generic cleric isn't all that strong - they need a fair bit of optimization to become powerful a la the laser builds. Then you have the 4e ranger, which is cool except that it's basically Easy Mode D&D.


In fact, I have yet to see an arcane caster break my game. I am running a high-level / epic game, and, of course, the arcane caster would be much harder to kill, but the melee character's offensive contribution is still on par. But maybe I am blessed with fine players.

Sure. Even epic monks can be nasty with the right build, and it sounds like you do have good players if they aren't fighting with each other or trying to attain gamebreaking power or the usual tropes of Those Who Must Be Groinkicked. ;) My point was that you can build a barb as straightforwardly as possible, taking the most obvious feats, and be left with a viable character for most of the game (the entire game, if the party is low-op). Fighters require a bit more skill since getting them damage leaves them well behind barbs especially in core and they're much better doing tactical work or gishing... basically stuff that requires a bit more player knowledge to pull off. And the difficulty of making a powerful character generally increases slowly from there. IMHO wizards are the hardest to use well, and demand skillful play as well as skillful building. Sorcs are a great compromise between power and ease of use (as are divine casters), but sorcs sacrifice a lot more in flexibility than the others, and obtain less power in the process. Again, more spells increase potential for cool things increases fun. Like I said, a core sorc can already break the game with ease, so it's not about power.

Actually, one of my early games had us fighting a ton of different giants... ogres especially. I had what was (for me being a newbie) an epiphany: they have lousy dex and large/huge size, meaning dex penalties. I took Leadership at 6th, got myself a bunch of sorcs with Grease, and broke the next several encounters before the DM changed up our enemies a bit.


Then I'd say you don't need the other houserule. Be careful not to make the sorcerer the teacher's pet in your game (unless you wish to, of course).

What I said about variability increasing fun. I'm not a 4e fan, but I do like that they gave all the classes a nice variety of options so the meleers and archers wouldn't be doing the same thing round after round.

The group I play with has (with one exception) never heard of Celerity or Arcane Fusion. They really like shooting fireballs into the middle of kobold campfires and feeding the charred remains to the barbarian. As is, they can't get all the flashy, cool sounding spells they want as a sorc, but nobody wants to become an accountant just to get wizard spell selection. This gives them the best of both worlds, and their power doesn't increase much just because they have both Fireball and Ice Storm.

Frankly the most OP thing in our games is me with a semi-optimal cloistered cleric with DMM Persist (being used carefully to let the party have fun by getting a lion's share of the buffs, etc). In the last game I cast Tongues on a tyrannosaur, then got him with Command. If I'd commanded him to retreat, he would have run into the ocean and been eaten alive by the sharks and octopi me and the druid summon. Instead I ordered him to fall and got the beaters a nice AoO. A sorc with a wider variety of blasty spells isn't going to break anything. :)


Have a look at Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic.

Have them - somehow I didn't notice how many of those spells were Sorc only. Huh... glad I haven't been playing a wizard then, cause I'd have been cheating like crazy without knowing it.


I am afraid I disagree. WOTC seriously nerfed wizards (and, by nerfing spells, affected aspects of the sorcerer, as well).

However, they have subsequently reduced one of the main disadvantages of the sorcerer: the increased casting time for metamagic can now be easily avoided with ACF or feats. This is a massive improvement, and also fixes the quicken spell issue. Or you cast Arcane Fusion. Arcane Spellsurge is another spell tailor-made with sorcerers in mind.

How did they nerf wizards? Are you talking about Haste not granting a standard action anymore? Are you refering to nerfs between 2 and 3 or between 3 and 3.5? I'm not familiar with 2e.

Sorcs can indeed get around most of their nerfs without too much trouble, but I guess my point is that they shouldn't have to engage in shenanigans to do what comes naturally to wizards. I'd say the casting mechanics separate them enough - wizards get lots of selection and free scroll scribing to help them increase selection and spells per day limits; sorcs get increased flexibility at the cost of having fewer ultimate choices. Wizards get scribe scroll as a freebie; sorcs get extra spells per day (again, extra spells per day accomplishes about the same thing as scroll scribing, but trades selection variability for increased versatility and simplicity). A perfect match, if you ask me. Wizards beat their limitations with lots of scrolls and items, sorcs beat their limitations with knowstones and such.

The metamagic nerf for sorcs might be reasonable since MM really is far more valuable when you can cast it spontaneously, and allowing sorcs to spend a feat to fix it also seems reasonable. The staggered casting? Just overkill. And wizards get a simple, effective way around their problems in core. No reason sorcs shouldn't at least get theirs in the primary splatbooks (without Sandshaper/Frost Mage). Runestaves are great at higher levels, but the whole point of sorcs is magic with minimal rulemongering, and knowstones fit that description perfectly (as well as being a great thematic compliment to scroll scribing).

Wow, long post. Time to sleep...

Malachei
2011-01-11, 06:47 AM
I'm not a 4e fan, but I do like that they gave all the classes a nice variety of options so the meleers and archers wouldn't be doing the same thing round after round.

I don't play 4E. In 3.5, we have Tome of Battle, which should be sufficient.


How did they nerf wizards? Are you talking about Haste not granting a standard action anymore? Are you refering to nerfs between 2 and 3 or between 3 and 3.5? I'm not familiar with 2e.

A lot of aspects. I am referring to the 3.0 - 3.5 half-edition change, which was, IMO, an ill thought altogether. I don't want to start a haste debate, and I can see certain problematic aspects of 3.0. Although they fixed some of the issues of 3.0, they created a lot of new issues at the same time (ranged touch ability damage, no save, anyone?), screwing up the school of magic distribution (we're all conjurers now), etc.


Wizards get scribe scroll as a freebie; sorcs get extra spells per day

I think many don't see Scribe Scroll as a bargain. Most people follow the handbook advice of switching to the fighter bonus feat ACF, thus dropping Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative.


metamagic nerf for sorcs might be reasonable since MM really is far more valuable when you can cast it spontaneously, and allowing sorcs to spend a feat to fix it also seems reasonable.

I'm not sure whether it is reasonable. I'm not a friend of feat-taxing, however. First developing a major class restriction only to add a feat in a book that allows people to circumvent it, is poor game design, IMO (but probably good for business). But as I think that the metamagic casting time is seriously hurting sorcerers at higher levels, I am actually quite happy for the solution.

The main remaining problem with sorcerers, IMO, is that the delayed spell progression hurts playability at lower levels -- and thereby often prevents the use of the class in multiclass builds (for which, flavor-wise, the class fits much better than the wizard, IMO).

fracas
2011-01-11, 07:24 AM
A lot of aspects. I am referring to the 3.0 - 3.5 half-edition change, which was, IMO, an ill thought altogether. I don't want to start a haste debate, and I can see certain problematic aspects of 3.0. Although they fixed some of the issues of 3.0, they created a lot of new issues at the same time (ranged touch ability damage, no save, anyone?), screwing up the school of magic distribution (we're all conjurers now), etc.

Heh, I have no strong opinion on Haste to start a debate over. 3.5 happened before I started doing any significant optimization or regularly playing casters. At first glance the Haste thing seems reasonable - an extra spell is far more valuable than an extra attack, and it's available early. Two fireballs wipes out a lot of enemies in one go at those levels.

The RT ability damage thing is in my experience either house ruled or avoided. At least it doesn't generally stack...

I'm not familiar with the conjurers issue?

I do like that 3.5 increased skill points for the barb and ranger, and boosted the ranger HD. Just wish they'd fixed the monk... I house rule monks to full BAB but their attacks are considered primary natural weapons, and they get secondary and tertiary attacks at levels 11 and 16 (this replaces Flurry of Blows). At level 6 they don't get an extra attack, but they do get to choose a bonus feat: Whole Body Strike allows them to add their unarmed damage to their weapon damage when fighting with a monk weapon, or All In The Wrist gives them an untyped +4 bonus to grapple/disarm/bull rush checks. At level 13 they always act in the surprise round and can Pounce once per encounter. At lvl 18 they can Pounce freely. This basically pushes them toward the 4e Monk that gets a ton of mobility as a class feature.

It's possible to game their damage a bit by upgrading both the unarmed damage and the armed damage, but bonuses of the same type still don't stack so there aren't a whole lot of options. Enlarge and amulet of natural attacks are the two obvious ones. There are probably more but so far it's been played well, it offers some rare mobility, and simplifies the math by reducing the number of attacks but increasing per-attack damage and make it a lot easier to get in a full attack. Hey, monks already have low HD and low AC for a meleer - they don't need to be worthless unless they're standing still and full attacking.


I think many don't see Scribe Scroll as a bargain. Most people follow the handbook advice of switching to the fighter bonus feat ACF, thus dropping Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative.

Then they benefit equivalently (or more than equivalently, since presumably they view ImpInit as an upgrade) by taking that ACF. Sounds fine to me.


I'm not sure whether it is reasonable. I'm not a friend of feat-taxing, however. First developing a major class restriction only to add a feat in a book that allows people to circumvent it, is poor game design, IMO (but probably good for business). But as I think that the metamagic casting time is seriously hurting sorcerers at higher levels, I am actually quite happy for the solution.

The main remaining problem with sorcerers, IMO, is that the delayed spell progression hurts playability at lower levels -- and thereby often prevents the use of the class in multiclass builds (for which, flavor-wise, the class fits much better than the wizard, IMO).

Makes sense - feats should generally be about picking a selection of cool abilities. Skill taxes seem almost worse when the result in you taking ranks you'll never use. Requiring move silently for the ninja? Reasonable. Profession: Basketweaver for the Fatespinner (just making that up)? Not so much.

I'm not sure XP costs are a good idea either, but I see the need for something like it to curb magic item creation and use of certain potent spells.

Sounds like we agree that the delayed spell progression should just be dumped. Maybe sorcs should have some other buffer on metamagic use, or maybe it should just be kind of a side benefit for them. Dunno... but I need to sleep. 6:30am here :p

Malachei
2011-01-11, 07:44 AM
I'm not familiar with the conjurers issue?

First of all, many spells were moved into conjuration to make it the strongest school. Also, several spells were changed from SR: Yes to SR: No.
Finally, the conjurer's ACF are simply incredible (especially Abrupt Jaunt -- avoid an attack as an immediate action INT modifier times per day? Sign me up!)


Sounds like we agree that the delayed spell progression should just be dumped.

Not what I was saying. IMO, the issue is more complex. A sorcerer's spontaneous casting is better than just 4 bonus feats. The smaller spell list is a drawback which sometimes has a strong effect, sometimes not. Especially at higher levels, when the spell list is larger, delayed spell acquisition seems appropriate to counterbalance the wizard's need to prepare. On the other hand, at lower levels, many see the sorcerer as penalized.


Profession: Basketweaver for the Fatespinner

Great idea!


(oh, and sorry, Psydon for abusing your thread)

Feather Sigil
2011-01-11, 09:16 AM
I have a houserule allowing sorcerers to take a feat that grants them their ability modifier as a bonus to spells known. But as this game is pretty much standard 3.5, it does not apply. As Psydon's sorcerer is going for Frost Mage, she will have an increase of spells known anyway.

...I once had Frostfell Prodigy...and Faerun has the feat Spellcasting Prodigy...and now you have this...

:smallbiggrin: I'm going to go back to looking for Cold spells now...yes...need more spells...




Sorcs are definitely powerful without them - like I said, they can be game breaking with nothing but the PHB. Knowstones just offer a bit more variety, given that you're already choosing not to use Real Ultimate Power just because you're a nice guy (well, and to avoid game meltdown/DM smackdown).

I've seen some of the things offered in Dragon Magazine, so even if Knowstones aren't necessarily game-breaking I fully understand why he wouldn't want that magazine's content in play. Also, he'd be contradicting his own rules and the rp is already underway as it is so the point is moot.

We all have our inner munchkin; some listen to it and others don't. I could have easily planned to go Incantatrix and structure my whole build around that to pull off something crazy, but I don't want to. I have a thematic and gameplay idea that I want to make work--past versions of my spell list notwithstanding.

That doesn't mean I don't want my idea to be as optimal as possible--WOTC, why do all the L1 and L2 cold spells except Ice Dagger and Frost Breath suck?--and I still have Alter Self and Polymorph in my future arsenal, but not because I've read a bunch of threads on how I can cheese the hell out of them (to put it simply, as you said, Polymorph and Wild Shape are essentially the same thing. Malachei, you'll know what I'm talking about).


I don't follow char op that closely - what major spells are sorc only? I'll grant you the Wizard advantage has diminished, but as far as I know the delayed casting progression can only be offset by kobold cheese that guarantees a DMG suppository to all who would attempt to use it (although if someone tried to get just the wizard casting progression without also attempting a free +3 to all mental stats it might go over a bit better... taking two feats for wizard progression seems more than reasonable to me).

Wings of Bounding (1st level spell, pretty much gives the caster the Jump skill). Seeing as I brought it up, is Jump even that useful?

Wings of Swift Flying (1st level spell, increases flying speed by crazy amounts)

Wings of Cover (2nd level spell, become temporarily invincible)

Wings of Flurry (4th level spell, wide range force damage aoe with REFsave-or-daze)

Arcane Fusion (5th level spell, cast two completely different spells for the price of AF's spell slot)

Greater Arcane Fusion (as AF but better. This one lets you put an Arcane Fusion into itself, letting you cast three spells for a single 8th level slot)

Arcane Spellsurge (speeds up casting, letting you cast a metamagic-enhanced spell and a normal spell on the same turn...unless you take something like Rapid Metamagic).



Kinda sad that one of the best ways of getting new sorc spells is by taking levels that aren't sorcerer. I believe the Sandshaper from Sandstorm is the usual first choice for getting spells known, but whatever works.

I had considered taking that, asking Malachei to consider houseruling it as Snowshaper instead of Sandshaper...but nah.


Sorcs can indeed get around most of their nerfs without too much trouble, but I guess my point is that they shouldn't have to engage in shenanigans to do what comes naturally to wizards. I'd say the casting mechanics separate them enough

My two big problems with Sorcerers right now are their delayed casting progression (why? Because Wizards study their spells? You could make the argument that Sorcerers get their spells earlier) and inability to add spells to their known lists (why is it that a Wizard can learn how to use a new spell but a Sorcerer can't? Especially since Wizards are trying to replicate magic, a force outside themselves, while Sorcerers do it naturally).

Edit: It's no big deal, Malachei. I appreciate your advice as well. :smallsmile:

Malachei
2011-01-11, 09:47 AM
My two big problems with Sorcerers right now are their delayed casting progression (why? Because Wizards study their spells? You could make the argument that Sorcerers get their spells earlier) and inability to add spells to their known lists (why is it that a Wizard can learn how to use a new spell but a Sorcerer can't? Especially since Wizards are trying to replicate magic, a force outside themselves, while Sorcerers do it naturally).

You're giving a valid flavor-style reason, but this is a mechanical aspect of game design.

WOTC thought they'd balance spontaneous casting versus prepared casting by limiting the sorcerer's spell list. Obviously, the larger your spell list, the more advantageous spontaneous casting is compared to prepared casting.

Some people feel the restriction is penalizing the sorcerer too much. Apparently, WOTC thought spontaneous casting is pretty strong (btw, they also think that delaying spells is pretty strong -- hence the high +3 metamagic modifier for the delay spell feat, which many people agree is not justified in most situations).

BUT: the moment you lay your hands on a rules system, you start changing an aspect of an interdependent system. I've seen people start tweaking a seemingly small aspect of the game and then get involved in an editing process that took them years to complete (or not complete, actually). IMO, the most important questions to ask before changing rules are:

1) Is it really broken?

With the inflationary use of the term "broken", first ask yourself: does this aspect hinder the game from working, overall? Yes, it should be that bad. Unless it keeps people from stopping to play, it is probably not deserving your attention (*). Your job is not to balance all classes mechanically -- D&D is not designed that way. If you want to ensure in-party balance, it is much better to adapt the game, than to adapt the rules (i.e. change the challenges, change the treasure, etc.).

(*) unless, of course, the rules are more important to you than the game you play. In this case, you are a theorist, and this is what question 2) is for.

2) Is this my personal preference?

If yes, chances are, you are changing an aspect based on your (obviously subjective) point of view -- thus, because all of us are prone to favoring game elements we like over game elements we like less, a change might not be justified. Get some other people's thought before you implement the change.

3) Who / what is affected by the change?

Many game elements are interdependent. If you improve one aspect, another aspect will seem a less optimal choice. 3rd edition D&D is a game framework of building blocks. Thus, in this edition, comparability is higher than before -- and this also means that the effect of changes are more obvious. If your change affects many aspects of the game (many players, many game situations, etc.), sit back and question if the change is worth the impact it causes (i.e. people having to rework their characters, etc.). Sometimes, we think we have the perfect houserule, but then, later on, we find we might want to reconsider the change, because it has not worked out the way we expected. The higher the impact of the change, the more work implementing the change is, and the more painful is the reverse process. I've seen games become a moving target of ever-evolving houserules, which is a pain for most players except the most experimental ones.

I used to change a lot of the older editions, but nowadays, I'd rather spend my gaming time working out an interesting flavor aspect, such as a setting, an adventure, an NPC, etc. -- or a new Prestige Class or spell, in which case I've gotten involved in the crunch again -- but hopefully, for a good reason :)