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Trixie
2011-01-06, 05:24 AM
My players tell me they want to fight Tarrasque with their 3rd level PCs. Told me they found a way to kill him dead.

Assuming they're right, what to do?

I tend to be fairly lenient and not ban anything "just because", as the world is fairly kitchen-sink. I only stop commoner railguns and the like, not that they try anything defying logic or common sense.

Eldan
2011-01-06, 05:30 AM
The problem is: it's entirely possible, mainly because the Tarrasque is terribly designed. There's a handful of first and second level spells that wreck it. Anyone with flight and a reliable source of damage high enough to wound it can eventually take it down.
The thing that will eventually stop your players is that they will most likely not have the Wish necessary to keep it dead, since everything else it can regenerate.

Now, I would recommend one of two things:

1) Don't do the fight. This is entirely within your rights as a DM. The Tarrasque is, in it's background, a unique and powerful monstrosity. There's only one, and most of the time it's sleeping. It might not even exist in your world. Therefore, why should the player even be able to find and fight it?

2) Do the fight, but do it as a kind of challenge to the players, not an official part of the game. Even if they win, the players will not actually get anything from it. Unless I'm mistaken, level 3 players don't get any XP from defeating something at level 20, since this falls under the "this is horribly wrong" part of the encounter table.
Instead, design what is basically an arena fight. Put the players at one end and the tarrasque at the other of an open landscape, and let the players try their plan. They clearly want to try their strategy, let them do it as a challenge.

Runestar
2011-01-06, 05:41 AM
At this lv, the only thing that might kill the tarrasque is if they manage to gain control of an allip somehow and have it ability-drain the tarrasque to zero. In which case, note that this no longer works, because incorporeality has been clarified (in rules compendium) to be affected by natural weapons which strike as magic/epic weapons.

Grogmir
2011-01-06, 05:44 AM
Certainly do the fight, always give the players what they want. Just qualify it.

This is out of time: Arena Challenge

If they say why? Say - do you want you NEXT characters to live in a world where a Big T is loose?

Oh and don't hold back either - this is gloves off DM time. Kill them, quickly.

BTW is one of your players a 1-2 Crusader or PunPun? :smallwink:

Eldan
2011-01-06, 06:08 AM
The problem is, it's fairly easy to make yourself unkillable by the Tarrasque. Killing it is more difficult, but get flight, fly out of jump range, and it can never touch you.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-06, 06:16 AM
The Terrasque really needs a breath weapon. It's basically Godzilla anyway...

Keld Denar
2011-01-06, 10:26 AM
DUN DUN DUNNNNN!!!!!!

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/JoopKoenraads/Motivators%20and%20Macros/FlyingTarrasque.jpg

Eldan
2011-01-06, 10:39 AM
Man. I love that molten caramel carapace.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 10:43 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, level 3 players don't get any XP from defeating something at level 20, since this falls under the "this is horribly wrong" part of the encounter table.

Even if they did get exp, wouldn't the maximum benefit be something like "they progress to level 4 and stop just shy of level 5?" You can't level twice in an encounter right?

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-06, 10:44 AM
Even if they did get exp, wouldn't the maximum benefit be something like "they progress to level 4 and stop just shy of level 5?" You can't level twice in an encounter right?

Right. So they'd get 6,999 xp, maximum, if they got any xp at all.

Emperor Ing
2011-01-06, 10:49 AM
Why do people keep forgetting this? The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) I know i'm just assuming but from what i've seen over the years people think you can just knock out its Intelligence or Wisdom and render it comatose.

That said, the Tarrie excels in not being killed. Everything else is just crap unless the PCs are stupid enough to try and get into melee with him.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 10:52 AM
Why do people keep forgetting this? The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) I know i'm just assuming but from what i've seen over the years people think you can just knock out its Intelligence or Wisdom and render it comatose.

Psst. Ability Drain != Ability Damage.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-06, 10:55 AM
Why do people keep forgetting this? The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)

And this is, indeed, why Shadows don't work.

Allips drain Wisdom. The Tarrasque isn't immune to Ability Drain.

Trixie
2011-01-06, 10:56 AM
1) Don't do the fight. This is entirely within your rights as a DM. The Tarrasque is, in it's background, a unique and powerful monstrosity. There's only one, and most of the time it's sleeping. It might not even exist in your world. Therefore, why should the player even be able to find and fight it?

Why? Because it is the agreement. Everything from core is in, as is ToB and most Complete books. In return, we use common sense and no absurd combinations.


2) Do the fight, but do it as a kind of challenge to the players, not an official part of the game. Even if they win, the players will not actually get anything from it. Unless I'm mistaken, level 3 players don't get any XP from defeating something at level 20, since this falls under the "this is horribly wrong" part of the encounter table.

Hmm, there might bo something here.


They clearly want to try their strategy, let them do it as a challenge.

They want to try, but they expect XPs if they do triumph as well.


At this lv, the only thing that might kill the tarrasque is if they manage to gain control of an allip somehow and have it ability-drain the tarrasque to zero.

That's the general idea - pile up enough bonuses to make Knowledge check, create all Alips they can control, cast invisibility, make Big T helpless, then bury its head (so it can't breathe - that stops regeneration) using poor masses, proceed to cut body for meat for said poor masses, pay them promised sum, go to town bragging.

Which technically fulfills all conditions needed for XP gain, from 3rd level to one XP below 5th.


If they say why? Say - do you want you NEXT characters to live in a world where a Big T is loose?

... :smallsigh:

They'd kill their characters and start anew if that would take them to more challenging world.


Oh and don't hold back either - this is gloves off DM time. Kill them, quickly.

I hate most ridiculous batman wizards ideas. No one in the group uses class combinations that can't be justified in more than two sentences.

Yet, it's damn hard to kill more than one or two unlucky PC unless you use excessive force. Even at CR +2-5, intelligent players manage most of the time unless something with broken CR is used.


BTW is one of your players a 1-2 Crusader or PunPun? :smallwink:

Crusader? Why?

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-06, 11:21 AM
There is a trick Crusaders can do to deal literally infinite damage - combining a weapon that deals 1d2 damage with an effect that lets them reroll all 1s and an effect that lets them roll again if they score max damage.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 11:57 AM
Why? Because it is the agreement. Everything from core is in, as is ToB and most Complete books. In return, we use common sense and no absurd combinations.

"Everything is in" is not the same as "everything is easy to find." By those rules, Solars are in your game too, that doesn't mean they should show up to a 3rd-level party.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-01-06, 12:31 PM
Why? Because it is the agreement. Everything from core is in, as is ToB and most Complete books. In return, we use common sense and no absurd combinations.
So it exists.

And there is only one.

Doesn’t make it easy to find. And even once you find it, you have to reach it. Apparently, it goes into hiding to hibernate when it is not on a rampage.

Baveboi
2011-01-06, 12:56 PM
Why kill the poor Big T? Even if they manage against 40/epic damage reduction, carapace magic immunity, 60 +- regeneration, huge ass and lots of HPs what would they GAIN by it?

Challenge? Tell them to play Super Meat Boy...

Fun? I see no funs in making a 3rd lvl party do more than 100 damage a turn for hundreds of turns.

Even if they kill, chop the guy, bury or destroy its head and isolate it's heart in the sun, by RAW it WILL come back to life if a Wish is not spent to let it dead. And another Wish can unmake that, even those of gods or other creatures that benefit from the T's eventual rampage (god of death, for an example). Maybe a masterpiece will regenerate an entire new T, or his head will grow another body over the years or whatever.

You can't really win something that the DM can make umbeatable. If, as a DM, you plan to even allow your players (at lvl 3) to meet the Big T and the possibility of victory is ACTUALLY there... I have nothing else to say.

Trixie
2011-01-06, 01:38 PM
So it exists.

And there is only one.

Doesn’t make it easy to find. And even once you find it, you have to reach it. Apparently, it goes into hiding to hibernate when it is not on a rampage.

Indeed. But, you can check where it rampaged last. Surely, there would be mention about such period in chronicles and descriptions of legendary, dangerous creatures. Things that interest any literate hero. If so, there is no point of doing any impassable waist high library fences - they pretty much always find a way to find information about what they want in believable manner, beating any non-Epic knowledge check, even if it takes activity in background of several sessions.

I might get away with stalling for a few sessions, but all it will do is that they will have the plan perfected and tested once they finally manage to find some scrap of info.


Why kill the poor Big T? Even if they manage against 40/epic damage reduction, carapace magic immunity, 60 +- regeneration, huge ass and lots of HPs what would they GAIN by it?

All of these are completely irrelevant, which was discussed already.

Why? Because they're heroes. That's what the adventurer's do, isn't it? You could well ask why people climb Mount Everest or swim Channel La Manche. Trying to bar them from things well within character is just poor DMing.


Challenge? Tell them to play Super Meat Boy...

So, what you propose I DM? :smallconfused: The whole point of it is doing what your players find fun, is it not?


Even if they kill, chop the guy, bury or destroy its head and isolate it's heart in the sun, by RAW it WILL come back to life if a Wish is not spent to let it dead.

It will, once someone digs it up and regeneration will start again. Until then, inert block of meat.


You can't really win something that the DM can make umbeatable. If, as a DM, you plan to even allow your players (at lvl 3) to meet the Big T and the possibility of victory is ACTUALLY there... I have nothing else to say.

So, you're saying I should just break the rules and agreement we had for... what exactly? :smallconfused:


---

Let me restate - I'm looking for way Bit T. can thwart that plan [without pulling things out of behinds], ways why it might backfire, or ways of turning the course of the adventure in different side.

Saying - "no, because no" to RAW not only won't be fun to anyone, but I also see no reason why I should bar them from it. Railroading kills immersion, after all. All I want is to add more challenge to not make game boring.

The only issue I have so far from this thread is XP reward issue, but I'd feel wrong with saying people they won't get any reward because the foe was too strong will feel a bit... weak. A perfect way of stopping this, IMHO, would be making this plan infeasible in some way, as having their characters act intelligently could work in DMs favor, too, forcing the PC if not players to scrap the idea.

Akal Saris
2011-01-06, 01:51 PM
Personally, I find it hard to believe that the PCs' characters will spontaneously go research allips with the intent of using them to kill a creature of forgotten legend, then create a dozen evil incorporeal undead that drive people mad (and how does a 3rd level PC create an allip, anyhow?), and then know somehow that suffocating a creature will stop regeneration, which is an obscure enough rule that I certainly didn't know that.

In other words, it's not really the characters defeating the tarrasque, it's the players' knowledge of esoteric rules that bypass the assumed strength of the tarrasque.

Ways the PCs' plan might backfire:
1. Allips drive your PCs mad
2. Creating allips angers a paladins' order
3. The tarrasque has a cult following it that heal it of wis drain
4. The peasant masses run in fear rather than cut it up when it's down

Callos_DeTerran
2011-01-06, 02:10 PM
Indeed. But, you can check where it rampaged last. Surely, there would be mention about such period in chronicles and descriptions of legendary, dangerous creatures. Things that interest any literate hero. If so, there is no point of doing any impassable waist high library fences - they pretty much always find a way to find information about what they want in believable manner, beating any non-Epic knowledge check, even if it takes activity in background of several sessions.

I might get away with stalling for a few sessions, but all it will do is that they will have the plan perfected and tested once they finally manage to find some scrap of info.

How are they doing this out of curiosity? And just because you know where it rampaged last (which is, admittedly, a good use of Knowledge (History) ), which shouldn't be THAT easy to determine since there's rarely any survivors to tell people a tarrasque went to town on them, doesn't tell you where it's laired. Tarrasque don't just...find a big hole to sleep in. They melt through the stone and dirt until they find an underground chamber large enough to hold their bulk, or, if that's taking too long, just sleeps once it gets tired of looking for such a spot.

So...yeah. IF they find out where it rampaged last, they still need to determine that it was the tarrasque that did said rampaging and not some other massive beastie and then need to find some way to tunnel through what is possibly MILES of stone and rock to find the slumbering beast itself. That is if they are able to determine where it went to ground anyway.

...And I have to go back to 'how do the CHARACTERS know about the tarrasque?' Last I checked the knowledge check to even know there IS a tarrasque was somewhere in the 30's, let alone anything important about it. It's all well and good if your PLAYERS want to fight the tarrasque, do a 'non-campaign arena fight' in such a case and maybe give them some bonus loot in the actual game if they succeed but IC...it's a much more daunting task to go Tarrasque hunting then just hitting third level and deciding they want to kill something called a tarrasque that has godly regeneration.

...This isn't counting the above (excellent) point about how they are creating allips or finding them.

Alternatively, just have them fight a pygmy tarrasque which is CR 6 (I think) and in one of the Dragon magazines. Then when they get confused, remind them that you didn't say WHICH tarrasque. If your party is easy-going then they'll have a good laugh and then forget this whole business since players (in my own experience) can stick to a long-term plan to save their lives and they'll move unto the next scheme.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-01-06, 02:29 PM
Indeed. But, you can check where it rampaged last.
Assuming it rampaged last in a location with surviving witnesses to tell of the rampage—which one was crazy enough to ignore all the damage it did and follow it to its home?

The rampages aren’t likely to constantly occur in locations civilized enough to keep an exact eye on the guy. And even when they do, it would be an exceptionally well prepared town that had someone ready to follow the thing back. Seems to be one of the contributing factors to Godzilla getting away after tearing apart downtown Tokyo, for example.

randomhero00
2011-01-06, 02:34 PM
Shrug, do the fight. Personally design it better (like better feats at least). Then give them an objective time sensitive like saving a city. Then laugh as the fail.

Zeta Kai
2011-01-06, 03:04 PM
Look, if they really wanna do it, & they can't have fun in the game any other way, then do the fight. But if that's the case, your group is already doomed, so it will likely be the last fight that you guys will run together anyway. Do it, but don't expect anything good to come of it.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 03:13 PM
Indeed. But, you can check where it rampaged last. Surely, there would be mention about such period in chronicles and descriptions of legendary, dangerous creatures. Things that interest any literate hero. If so, there is no point of doing any impassable waist high library fences - they pretty much always find a way to find information about what they want in believable manner, beating any non-Epic knowledge check, even if it takes activity in background of several sessions.

I might get away with stalling for a few sessions, but all it will do is that they will have the plan perfected and tested once they finally manage to find some scrap of info.

It sounds like you're already set on running this encounter. Why ask us then? :smallconfused:

If you don't like saying no to them, then don't. Let them get their free 1.9 levels (or plastered, if their uber plan fails) and move on with the campaign. It's not like they can farm Tarrasques for level gains after all.

Kylarra
2011-01-06, 03:28 PM
Frankly I'd make the task of finding Big T (and the subsequent other parts) to be more involved than a series of random knowledge checks to see "do we get to use metagame cheese to kill a giant monster that by all rights we shouldn't know about using monsters we've never encountered and a rule we've never had a need to know about?"

nedz
2011-01-06, 03:47 PM
[false] Rumours of where the T is are possibly more common than the truth ?
They may even have been written down. There are plenty of examples of false facts finding there way into various books even to this day.

In which case you have an endless supply of red herrings which you could turn into a whole campaign even. I mean: I can think of better campaign ideas, but it would seem to be an easy sell.

Eventually, when they do track down the beast, it will either lead to an anti-climax or the opposite.

Kylarra
2011-01-06, 03:49 PM
[false] Rumours of where the T is are possibly more common than the truth ?
They may even have been written down. There are plenty of examples of false facts finding there way into various books even to this day.

In which case you have an endless supply of red herrings which you could turn into a whole campaign even. I mean: I can think of better campaign ideas, but it would seem to be an easy sell.

Eventually, when they do track down the beast, it will either lead to an anti-climax or the opposite.Yeah, make them earn their encounter with the tarrasque.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 03:53 PM
My favorite one is to give the Tarrasque those coin tick things from the Dracomonicon and have them hide in its scales. When the battle starts they have to deal with a swarm of them as well as it. I also give it the ability to make a 120ft wind cone by breathing out, since its huge and the Tarrasque. The cone acts as a storm and knocks down anything flying as well as doing 1d12 damage.

Abies
2011-01-06, 04:02 PM
I don't see any reasonable way for lvl 3 characters to control or herd a single allip into fighting T, much less several of them.

As near as I can tell even trying to control an Allip would cause the Madness special ability to trigger. After all, controlling intelligent undead requires some sort of mind control ability. How long will the controlling PC last at -1d4 Wis a round?

Even if you were to ahve the Allips defeat T, then you still have a bunch of Allips. Part of the plan consisted of Commoners hacking the head off? Ok great, now you have a bunch of hypnotized commoners per Babble.

Another thing to consider, the Tarrasque's natural weapons are Epic, they can hit an Allip. Though that's not so much a benefit, tehy only need to hit 3-4 times before stupification occurs.

As to the "Bury its head, and prevent regen" idea. I believe the relevant passage is this:

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

That passage in no way indicates that the inability to breathe prevents regeneration, just that regeneration does not restore HP lost to suffocation. So I guess after incapping T with Wisdom damage you could put its head in a pool (all the while hoping not to get hypnotized by the Allips), make T suffocate and eventually get his nonlethal HP to a critical point.

So, I suppose if your players have found a way to create and control intelligent undead that have the specific ability to cause Wisdom damage to anyone trying to control them and cause anyone who can hear them to be hypnotized (Hooray! an easy one, Silence is a lvl2 spell!), then arbitrarially find a way to find a creature that's not even known to most legends, then arbitrarially find a way to get to said creature, then find a way to get a bunch of peasants to follow them and their evil insanity-inducing undead minions into the wilderness, then all goes according to plan, sure, your lvl 3 party killed the Tararsque. Congratulations for being among the most permissive DMs ever. Now your players know that you'll let them do whatever they want no matter how foolish or ill-advised it may be. get ready for some serious whining whenever they don't get their way.

Sploosh
2011-01-06, 06:29 PM
Another question you need to answer: If getting the information to find Big T, discover its weaknesses, ect.. is easy enough that it can be achieved by level 3s, why hasn't someone else done it?

Trixie
2011-01-06, 07:45 PM
So, let's see the issues:

1) Commanding Allip. Simple, Command Undead, second level spell. Not mind control, so it doesn't trigger madness. Gibbering - earplugs...

2) Social problems of necromancy: ok. If they slip, they'll suffer. They're careful, though.

3) Them hitting knowledge check: Wizard will simply go to library in a big city. You don't know how many bonuses you can stack on this :smallsigh: Not out of character, so cannot bar it.

4) Creating Allips: Summon Undead spells.

5) Finding Tarrasque - might be problem, but it's big. Also, desn't kill everyone, and necromancer can contact various beings. Hmm. They will happily substitute something big, non-Draconian, though.

6) Pygmy Tarrasque - heh. amusing :smallamused:


Look, if they really wanna do it, & they can't have fun in the game any other way, then do the fight. But if that's the case, your group is already doomed, so it will likely be the last fight that you guys will run together anyway. Do it, but don't expect anything good to come of it.

Why? :smallconfused:


It sounds like you're already set on running this encounter.

I intend to run encounter, not shooting fish in the barrel.


Frankly I'd make the task of finding Big T (and the subsequent other parts) to be more involved than a series of random knowledge checks to see "do we get to use metagame cheese to kill a giant monster that by all rights we shouldn't know about using monsters we've never encountered and a rule we've never had a need to know about?"

That's the plan. Both mine and the guys, they're very strict on arriving on knowledge they want to use in legal way.


My favorite one is to give the Tarrasque those coin tick things from the Dracomonicon and have them hide in its scales.

Name?


then arbitrarially find a way to find a creature that's not even known to most legends

You just described 90% of campaigns :smalltongue:


If getting the information to find Big T, discover its weaknesses, ect.. is easy enough that it can be achieved by level 3s, why hasn't someone else done it?

Probable answer: they found it. Without allips. Or, they're the first, as someone has to be.

Also - We're...


http://dietrichthrall.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/heroes.jpg

:smalltongue:

Godskook
2011-01-06, 08:04 PM
5) Finding Tarrasque - might be problem, but it's big. Also, desn't kill everyone, and necromancer can contact various beings. Hmm. They will happily substitute something big, non-Draconian, though.

Various beings? Sounds like your group is metagaming big time. I mention this because of something you say in a second.


Why? :smallconfused:

How much more cheese could you possibly allow than for a ECL 3 party to kill a CR 20 monster? Kinda says "go ahead and ascend to pun-pun-hood, guys".


That's the plan. Both mine and the guys, they're very strict on arriving on knowledge they want to use in legal way.

Except "knowing what to look for" is a knowledge. Your players are *METAGAMING* big time just to even know there is a Tarrasque to look for.


Name?

Probably the Hoard Scarab

Gandariel
2011-01-06, 08:15 PM
Quick idea: for a monsteer with massive DR it's safe to assume that level 3 charachter's swords aren' enough to chop Big T's head!

they can say, we keep hitting and hitting, sometime we will be able to chop his head off
NO
because
a) their swords are more likely to break first
b) even if, after hundreds of attacks, they managed to scratch his neck... whops, regenerate!

sooner or later Wis damage fades, T is back!

Quellian-dyrae
2011-01-06, 08:15 PM
I think the big problem you're looking at, is that for third level characters, there are pretty much three ways an encounter with the Tarrasque can go:

-They use exploits and win, without any real threat or challenge, cheapening the encounter.
-They flee. Fast and far.
-They die.

I don't think there's a reasonable way to turn a CR 20 opponent with, unfortunately, some major design flaws into a challenging, heroic encounter for third level characters.

My advice? Sure, let them build up their allip army. Indeed, perhaps they, in their research, receive the aid of some dark-natured clerics who have the information they seek as well as ways to gather the necessary undead. Alongside their new backers, they travel to the Tarrasque's lair to enact The Plan. There is, of course, an obligatory dungeon crawl that the heroes have to forge the way through (maybe something blocks incorporeals or something, whatever).

Only, when they get through the dungeon, they learn the truth; the cult worships a nihilistic deity and seeks to unleash the monster, not to destroy it. The priests awaken the Tarrasque and turn on the heroes. They have to make a fighting retreat. And sure, they should be able to fight their way out. But now the Tarrasque is awake, hungry, and backed up by priests who can deal with undead or other ability drain shenanigans. And it's all their fault.

Cue twenty-level campaign ending with an epic showdown against the Tarrasque as it was meant to be.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 08:19 PM
I intend to run encounter, not shooting fish in the barrel.


Again: why ask us what you should do if you've made up your mind?



How much more cheese could you possibly allow than for a ECL 3 party to kill a CR 20 monster? Kinda says "go ahead and ascend to pun-pun-hood, guys".


To be fair, he is over-CR'ed.

dgnslyr
2011-01-06, 08:41 PM
Why not let them have their fun and just start a level 5 campaign with their characters afterwards? Sure, they killed an enormous behemoth of scales and tooth, but most people might not even realize how "legendary" it is, and how absurd their accomplishment is. Sure, it's big, but can it fly or cast spells or unleash a devastating breath like a dragon? What's so special about killing a giant turtle? They get recognized, but maybe not quite as much as they'd hope.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 09:10 PM
Why not let them have their fun and just start a level 5 campaign with their characters afterwards?

Level 4 actually, unless some bandits jump them as they're walking home.

Actually, that would be pretty funny if they TPKed to some footpads on their way home from slaying the Tarrasque :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-06, 09:25 PM
I want to know how they intend to get around the "you have to cast Wish to kill it" restriction.

Jokes
2011-01-06, 09:35 PM
Again: why ask us what you should do if you've made up your mind?

So the DM can make the challenge... a challenge? For example: Five headed Pyrotarrasque (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20051109a).


4) Creating Allips: Summon Undead spells.

How? Summon Undead IV is a 4th level spell. They'd have to find a friendly higher level necromancer and spend a chunk of wealth on a few single use scrolls.

And so they've summoned a bunch of Allips and go about waking up T, who's to say he sticks around? He can just Rush away toward the nearest settlement, by the time the Allips catch up, the spell will be close to ending.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 10:06 PM
I want to know how they intend to get around the "you have to cast Wish to kill it" restriction.

Something about suffocating it to get around its regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration) I think.


So the DM can make the challenge... a challenge? For example: Five headed Pyrotarrasque (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20051109a).

It's easy to make this a challenge; Give him a pet cleric to rebuke the allips.

Gavinfoxx
2011-01-06, 10:28 PM
You have read the main list of methods, right?

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt

This is a big list of methods, I think it needs updating, though.

Mojo_Rat
2011-01-06, 11:02 PM
Ultimately the problem with the Big T for the most part isnt the Big T (there are some problems with it but i think PF fixed most of these)

Ultimately Its metagaming, All the players have rea dhis Entry then go mechanically through the books to solve every problem with him. throw in the plethora of splat books and the Wierd susceptibilty to Ability Drain and hes beatable.

level 3 characters Cant find out how to fight him, Finding the informationt o posible face him should be a high level quest.

Hes got some great defenses.. Which never ever work because all the players know them.

Really it is /mostly/ a player problem i think.

Moglorosh
2011-01-06, 11:05 PM
Something about suffocating it to get around its regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration) I think.


Which, as has already been pointed out (possibly by you, I'm tired and on cold medication) won't work by RAW as Regeneration will still heal all the damage not caused directly by the suffocation. Meaning that: at best, they pulled a pretty neat prank on it by knocking it out and burying its head in the sand.

Also seems like it would take a pretty decent number of allips to take it down since it will take an average of 6 hits to zero out its wisdom. A full attack from the T man will take out several allips at a time. One would have to be insanely lucky for that strategy to work out, especially since they aren't even high enough level to summon the allips on their own.

Vangor
2011-01-06, 11:44 PM
My players tell me they want to fight Tarrasque with their 3rd level PCs. Told me they found a way to kill him dead.

Assuming they're right, what to do?

I wouldn't bother, frankly. Finding ways to overcome encounters such as the Tarrasque is a thought experiment, akin to Pun-Pun. The allip method is not anything new, either, which is why bothering to do this is pointless.

Effectively, the group needs a way to cast Summon Undead IV or V or Command Undead after locating an Allip (the far more difficult option) and Wish.

For the Summon Undead line, the Tarrasque has 14 Wisdom, with an average 2.5 damage per strike by an Allip, with a +3 versus a touch AC of 5, meaning the Allip can only miss on a 1, no struggle here. However, if you cannot cast the spell Summon Undead IV yourself, which the party cannot currently, you need a scroll, and need to beat a minimum CL check of 18 to successfully activate (minimum 20 for SU V). The party has a 25% chance to activate, or if they somehow manage +5 more CL a 50% chance to activate. The group should be using a minimum of 4 to likely be successful in summoning an Allip.

How close they can get to the Tarrasque before attempting to use scrolls multiple times will determine how likely a single Allip will be in subduing the Tarrasque, with the minimum CL SUIV scroll allowing 7 rounds. The Allip needs 6 or more rounds to have a 50/50 shot of success, and this is still a significant window to fail with 7 rounds. I would recommend a second set of scrolls at least to prepare for this.

The next portion depends on interpretation, but to me, the Epic damage reduction implying the natural weapons of the Tarrasque has the Epic quality means the Allips can be killed by the Tarrasque. The party realistically needs to make no more changes provided the hunt is leisurely with no time constraints. With an automatic 50% miss chance, three or four Allips could fell the Tarrasque, with four being more certain. Brings the group to 16 scrolls of SU IV.

After, merely suffocate the Tarrasque. However they do will probably take time considering how gargantuan and heavy the Tarrasque is. Will take more than 10 minutes to progress through the 35 Con x 2 Rounds for lack of oxygen to begin and the DC10+1 per failure fort save against a 38 for suffocation to possibly take effect, and three more rounds to actually work. Doesn't matter since the Tarrasque won't recover by itself, but they have purchased 16+ scrolls of a certain type from intelligent enough wizards, scoured libraries looking for information on the creature, and gone through undoubtedly multiple lands, possibly even recruited some assistance to truly suffocate the Tarrasque; someone knows what they are after.

All this is thought experiment based on a not too compelling fight of a creature which has some obvious defensive problems. Requires 11,200(SU IVx16)+28,825(Wish) gold to do, plus magical flight or invisibility which is by comparison easy to obtain.

-----

They're level three or I would offer real suggestions for making the fight difficult or more enjoyable. I always thought of the Tarrasque as an ecosystem unto itself with creatures cleaning its scales and teeth, feasting on the remains from its destruction, and similar. Have some of them flying, others who are parasitic and absorb certain negatives affects, such as the ability drain of the Allips, and so forth.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-01-07, 12:10 AM
So, let's see the issues:

1) Commanding Allip. Simple, Command Undead, second level spell. Not mind control, so it doesn't trigger madness. Gibbering - earplugs...

As mentioned, Allip are intelligent undead and thus get a saving throw against Command Undead. Which can be problematic for a 3rd level party because Allips are freaking dangerous at that level. More importantly, Command Undead only acts as a 'Charm' spell on intelligent undead, they'll ignore any suicidal orders or obviously harmful ones...like charging the mountain of muscles, claws, and teeth that is the Tarrasque when it's fully capable of eating them. Hell, this is probably one of the few times that Cleave/Great Cleave comes in handy. Allips pass into Tarrasque's reach. Tarrasque gets AoO (and it has Blind-Fight too, so it has a decent chance of hitting it), Tarrasque proceeds to Great Cleave it's way through Allip swarm. Or worse, it cleaves through the allips to the PCs. At 3rd level the minimum damage WITHOUT Power Attack and still kill a PC an attack. And unlike the Allips, it has virtually no chance of NOT hitting them. If they are within it's reach it could very well kill all of them in a single chain of Cleave attacks.

Keep in mind that the Tarrasque can easily Power Attack for -48 to hit and still be in no danger of missing the allips or PCs. And if they can just tank 69+ damage (assuming minimum rolls on EVERY attack) at level 3 then you have a bigger problem then them wanting to fight the Tarrasque.



3) Them hitting knowledge check: Wizard will simply go to library in a big city. You don't know how many bonuses you can stack on this :smallsigh: Not out of character, so cannot bar it.

That's...That's not an answer. The library shouldn't even help, just enable them to make the knowledge checks in the first place! And I still want to know how many bonuses they seem to be stacking without obvious cheese.


5) Finding Tarrasque - might be problem, but it's big. Also, desn't kill everyone, and necromancer can contact various beings. Hmm. They will happily substitute something big, non-Draconian, though.

Like I said, if it's sleeping then it's quite likely buried beneath miles of stone and dirt. If it's already rampaging then that's easier to determine where it is, but that seems like a cop-out honestly ("You guys want to find the Tarrasque? Alright, it's rampaging at X location right now then!"). And uh...yeah. It does kill everyone, or does it's damndest to do so. The example fiction for the Tarrasque in it's Ecology article gives a grand total of two survivors when the Tarrasque attacked two countries/cities. Considering that mages/clerics aren't the most common character types in the world (let alone high level ones) that means few capable of teleporting away leaving those who can fly fast enough to get away from the Tarrasque. No easy task considering the fly spell only gives a 60 foot fly speed and, considering one went straight up, that leaves a pitifully easy Jump check for the tarrasque to make in order to reach said flying character. Keep in mind the tarrasque only hates one thing...flying creatures, since it's smart enough to realize that's how most prey escapes it. If something starts flying then it should damn well become enemy no. 1 in the tarrasque's eyes. If it hasn't Rushed yet, that means you need to be casting at least 170 ft. away from the tarrasque and have enough space fly straight up and continue to do so before the tarrasque reaches you. It also has a +7 initiative modifier so it could very well be going before your PCs too.

That said, who in Baator is the necromancer contacting at 3rd level that just happens to know the location of the tarrasque?


6) Pygmy Tarrasque - heh. amusing :smallamused:


This is still my advised course of action, despite your amusement. :smalltongue: Your group seems laid back so have their trail lead them to a pygmy tarrasque, let them get their tarrasque slaying out of their system, and move on with your game. After having a large bout of group laughter at how you pulled a fast one on them.

Godskook
2011-01-07, 04:21 AM
To be fair, he is over-CR'ed.

See, that's not his problem. Its quite clear based on the various abilities that the Tarrasque has that he's intended to be a threat to PCs in the post-15 category. Therefore, I'd classify it as "under-designed" rather than "over-CR'ed".

JBento
2011-01-07, 06:13 AM
Never ever ever ever EVER play the Mr. T. has written down. Ever. The Toughness n times is just ridiculous - give him the Mage Slayer line, along with stuff where feats are actually worth spending. Also, give him a way to deal with flying enemies and, possibly, a Brilliant Scales (that's the name right? natural AC to touch attacks?) constant effect.

If the players start complaining about it differing from the MM entry, then:

a) their characters have no business going the stats anyways - seriously, the Tarrasque has 48 HD, which means that merely knowing it's the Tarrasque you're looking at WHILE IN ITS PRESENCE is 58, and probably more seeing as T. is an unique creature.

b) the Tarrasque is a monster of legend. The Greek gave us unicorns when they looked at rhinos - how much truth decay is there going to be when the only source are the tales of half-mad survivors from I-don't-know-how-many-millenia-ago?

turkishproverb
2011-01-07, 07:29 AM
b) the Tarrasque is a monster of legend. The Greek gave us unicorns when they looked at rhinos - how much truth decay is there going to be when the only source are the tales of half-mad survivors from I-don't-know-how-many-millenia-ago?

That's been my comparison a few times I modded monsters or characters who already existed and appeared in stories. (Inlcuding Big T, who gained a few erm... abilities)

faceroll
2011-01-07, 07:54 AM
There is a trick Crusaders can do to deal literally infinite damage - combining a weapon that deals 1d2 damage with an effect that lets them reroll all 1s and an effect that lets them roll again if they score max damage.

They only deal infinite damage if given an infinite amount of out of game time to roll damage. I don't consider the 1d2 crusader a true "infinite" build.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-07, 08:00 AM
They only deal infinite damage if given an infinite amount of out of game time to roll damage. I don't consider the 1d2 crusader a true "infinite" build.

It is an actual infinite loop. You can save time by just saying "okay, you hit? He's dead". :smalltongue:

Assuming it's something that can be affected by your weapon.

Eldan
2011-01-07, 08:02 AM
Do they actually, in the wording, the option to stop rolling?

faceroll
2011-01-07, 08:05 AM
Do they actually, in the wording, the option to stop rolling?

Yes.


It is an actual infinite loop. You can save time by just saying "okay, you hit? He's dead". :smalltongue:

Assuming it's something that can be affected by your weapon.

You are grossly abusing what the term "infinite" means.

Myth
2011-01-07, 09:04 AM
Ignoring the fact that OP asked a question he only wants answered in a postie way ("go right ahead good chap, there's nothing wrong with allowing your 3rd level party to break the game and defeat a creature it normally shouldn't be able to scratch.")

I'd do this: if they manage to locate it and prepare accordingly (which is very hard to do for 3rd level PCs as described), they'd have to burrow down to it's underground lair. Congratulations, you are now fighting the T in a low ceiling cave that is small enough for him to threaten every square around him.

If they still manage to break DnD and abuse something (Allips in a small room will die to one chain of Cleave attacks), I'll just send a "God of Nature X" Planetar down to Restoration the beastie and shake his finger at the party. The Big T is obviously important to nature, else it would have been removed from the ecosystem by said Deity.

It's their choice if they want to fight the Big T again, with a Planetar backing him up.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-01-07, 10:19 AM
Never ever ever ever EVER play the Mr. T. has written down. Ever. The Toughness n times is just ridiculous - give him the Mage Slayer line, along with stuff where feats are actually worth spending. Also, give him a way to deal with flying enemies and, possibly, a Brilliant Scales (that's the name right? natural AC to touch attacks?) constant effect.


Well, considering that Big T is fully capable of taking Epic Feats (9 of them if my math is right) but was created BEFORE the Epic Level Handbook came around, it's only right that you do the right thing and swap out 9 of it's crappy feats for Epic Feats. Hell, if nothing else, give it Epic Wisdom/Intelligence so that it's capable of more tactical thinking and capable of sustaining more hits from an allip. Or hell, if nothing nothing else, swap out the Toughness feats for Epic Toughness so at least you get more bang-for-buck.