The legal profession- how necessary is it?

[hamishspence]

Is the profession of lawyer, something that, while often disapproved of, is necessary to society- to ensure that people get the fair trials they are entitled to,

and to ensure that those with power, don't exploit people unchecked?

Inspired by this quote from the autism thread:



Also, evidence mounts in favor of the banning of the legal profession.

and taken here to avoid derailing the other thread.

[Zmflavius]

I'm going to say yea, for most of the reasons you highlighted in the other thread.

[Renegade Paladin]

The trouble is, lawyers are themselves people with power, and themselves exploit people unchecked. The solution is the same as the problem.

Further, due to the extortionist rates charged by attorneys for their services, the power gap itself is only exacerbated, as those with power (which generally also comes with at least a modicum of financial assets, if the power itself doesn't simply spring from being wealthy, as it often does) are able to swamp those without using their hired goons lawyers for longer than those without are able to sustain a defense.

Note that the above, for the most part, applies to civil law, which unlike criminal law generally has no protections to ensure that those without large amounts of money are given a fair shake.

[hamishspence]

A lot of civil cases aren't "big business vs small individuals" though- much of the time, the people suing each other will be in the same bracket.

[Elder Tsofu]

I believe that there might be a difference between "lawyers" and "lawyers". British lawyers, Swedish lawyers, Indian lawyers and USA lawyers are not the same. (as all professions, its a matter of culture)

As none can know all the rules in the book I approve of hiring experts on it. Then the ruling body should hire the best to plug holes in the laws.

[Asta Kask]

The problem is that those experts would be lawyers...

[pendell]

I'm going to disagree with the premise that lawyers are unnecessary. No one holds a gun to people's heads and MAKE them use lawyers, or participate in ambulance-chasing lawsuits.

Lawyers provide a service which is absolutely necessary in a society as over-legislated as our own. If people were not greedy, ambulance-chasers wouldn't find anyone to file suit on behalf of. Rather, ambulance-chasing is merely a symptom of human greed, and if lawyers were not there to provide an outlet for greed, another one would appear. We would lose the useful benefits of the legal profession while keeping all the problems of greedy bastards.

I personally have benefited from legal expertise when discussing my job, when dealing with copyright issues, when dealing with tax laws. Good lawyers are necessary in order for ordinary human beings to deal with the immense snarl of red tape that is life in the modern world. Possibly civilization would be a better place with fewer laws -- but if over-regulation and de-regulation isn't a political issue, I don't know what is, so I'll let it lie there.

In sum, lawyers provide a useful service. Lawyers can also be abused. But these abuses happened before lawyers and will continue to happen afterwards. Therefore, do not abolish the use because of the use.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Renegade Paladin]

A lot of civil cases aren't "big business vs small individuals" though- much of the time, the people suing each other will be in the same bracket.
Which leads to another problem. As I related in the other thread, I was waiting in the courtroom at one point at the same time as some lawyers representing opposing companies. As it happened, it was a mineral rights dispute. They took no notice of me, and proceeded to discuss how the one would plead this, and the other would plead that, and they'd drag it out procedurally for as long as they could get away with, and then one of them would concede his case, and they'd all get a huge pile of money, presumably to add to the collection. In other words, they were exploiting their clients like you wouldn't believe (and it doesn't take long to do that at $125 an hour, the lowest rate I was ever quoted before giving up and representing myself).

This problem isn't unique to the practice of law; any profession where the professional is hopelessly more knowledgeable than those who have procured his services is open to this sort of graft, since the client will have a hard time telling if he's being exploited or not. But other professions (medicine springs to mind) of this sort at least tend to have at least some form of professional ethics designed to prevent this sort of behavior, while to all appearances this is not the case in law.

[hamishspence]

But other professions (medicine springs to mind) of this sort at least tend to have at least some form of professional ethics designed to prevent this sort of behavior, while to all appearances this is not the case in law.

There are codes of professional ethics- and limited regulatory bodies (bar associations)- with disbarment being the ultimate sanction-

but all the issues of self-regulation- mean that it's still somewhat limited in restraining corruption.

[Zmflavius]

But other professions (medicine springs to mind) of this sort at least tend to have at least some form of professional ethics designed to prevent this sort of behavior, while to all appearances this is not the case in law.

Actually, not necessarily (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ethics/aba/current/ABA_CODE.HTM#Rule_1.3)

edit: ninja'd

[pendell]

Actually, lawyers have the same ethics requirements as doctors do and violation of those ethics can result in disbarment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment).

The practice of law , like the practice of medicine, is a privilege. It is not easy to get a license -- to 'pass the bar' -- and once received it can be revoked for ethical violations. See here (http://www.law.duke.edu/lib/researchguides/legale) for details on the Codes of Professional Responsibility lawyers are expected to follow.

This doesn't mean lawyers don't pull tricks like the one you saw in your courthouse to the detriment of their clients. I assume they are obeying rule zero -- don't get caught.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[_Zoot_]

The legal profession is critical to human civilisation, if you want to live under the rule of law, then you will need people to interpret the law. And yes, while there are bad lawyers, ones that may cheat clients or drag out cases there are also good ones, ones that help people in need (ok, so maybe not as many of these), and I would think that there are more lawyers that are simply doing a job rather than looking for ways to defraud clients.

And even if there weren't it wouldn't make a difference, to have laws someone must interpret them.

Anyway, I hate to be rude, but it seems this discussion is based off one persons bad experience with lawyers, and I don't really think that is a valid reason to bring the necessity of the legal trades into question. In every area you will find bad people, teachers, soldiers, publishers, performers and yes, even lawyers but just because some of them are bad, doesn't mean that they as a whole don't preform a critical role in our society.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Lawyers provide a service which is absolutely necessary in a society as over-legislated as our own.
I'll be in the minority, but... Here's the problem. Our society is way overlegislated. In no small part due to the fact that most senators/congressmen/MP's are lawyers themselves.

Have you seen the US tax code? It's one of the most overcomplicated things in existence, to a point where depending or not on whether you use an accountant, your tax return can be $1k larger or smaller.

Won't go into the rest since it becomes politics.

[Asta Kask]

I'll be in the minority, but... Here's the problem. Our society is way overlegislated. In no small part due to the fact that most senators/congressmen/MP's are lawyers themselves.

Have you seen the US tax code? It's one of the most overcomplicated things in existence, to a point where depending or not on whether you use an accountant, your tax return can be $1k larger or smaller.

Won't go into the rest since it becomes politics.

Exactly. This easily becomes politics. But if we want a complex legal system (and it seems necessary to have one), then we need lawyers. As simple as that.

Also not that we have a selection effect here. We only hear about the lawyers who engage in some form of misconduct. If we judge a profession only by the worst - what profession would remain?

[Castaras]

The trouble is, lawyers are themselves people with power, and themselves exploit people unchecked. The solution is the same as the problem.

*twitch* No they don't. My dad is a lawyer, and he is a damned fine one at that. He doesn't exploit people, he gives them the best chance he can at them getting their say in court for their story. He may not agree with what their story is, or even believe for one minute that this person is innocent, but he will be truly impartial and give the client the best advice possible, and the best defence case possible. A lot of the time, in fact most of the time, the defendant will end up going down - mostly because they scupper themselves by trying to be clever or saying something different to what they said in interview - but the cases that are successes for the people who truly were in the wrong place at the wrong time; those are the cases that end up with us getting thank you cards, or gifts of wine as a thanks.

Another important thing - not all lawyers do suing case, not all lawyers do the big money cases. Most lawyers are there helping with criminal and domestic disputes - the ones that happen every day. I personally find the whole opinion on TV of all Lawyers being evil corrupt and vicious insulting (no matter what dad may say he is seeing as he's a GM...). Most lawyers are ordinary people like you doing a job, and there are lawyers out there who are as honest as can be - in fact, most of them will be.

[CoffeeIncluded]

First off, there are lots of different types of lawyers. Second, very, very few cases go to trial; most are settled out of court. In a society of law, lawyers are necessary to read, examine, and interpret the law and all its possible variations of a scenario.

Also, most lawyers are NOT corrupt. And those who are do get punished, sometimes with disbarment if it's severe enough. Lawyers, like many things that are seen as bad, are a neutral force. (In this case, lawful neutral :smalltongue:)

Both my parents are lawyers and I know for a fact that they are a) Not corrupt, and b) It is a lot of work, being a lawyer. Like doctors, lawyers have an intellectually taxing job, and they're often working for hours. And no, most lawyers do not make buckets of money. They provide a necessary, if unappreciated service.

They're doing their job and they're (almost always) honest and would you complain about paying a doctor for when you're sick?

[Don Julio Anejo]

To put it into perspective, I like criminal lawyers. They're the reason Roman Law works in the first place. And for all the big-time big-money OJ Simpsons that walk, a lot more guilty rich people would walk and a lot more poor people would get falsely jailed if we didn't have a court system.

What I don't like is high-end civil ones. Like copyright lawyers, corporate lawyers, etc. These are the ones who work for rich people and give them an unfair advantage.

Just do a thought experiment... Imagine some guy wrote about an orphan boy named Harry who turned out to be a wizard and went to a magical school to have wacky adventures... He'd be sued faster than he could blink, even if that's the only similarity between his work and JK Rowling's. Now imagine it the other way around... Someone brings out his book written and published in the 70's that's exactly like Harry Potter.

Do you really, for a tiny moment, think he would win?


They're doing their job and they're (almost always) honest and would you complain about paying a doctor for when you're sick?
Actually even though I'm working on becoming a doctor myself, I think they're both grossly overpaid, overworked and their status is much higher than it should be. For everyone included it would be significantly better if it were easier to become a doctor and doctors themselves worked less, also making less money. This would both make doctors more accessible and more people would go into the profession for medicine rather than to make money.

Also, ambulance chasers deserve to die a slow and agonizing death... Did you know an average general surgeon pays $100k in malpractice insurance? Whatever little benefit they provide for doctors to do their job well and not make mistakes gets canceled out by not being able to really do anything for fear of getting sued.

[pendell]

I look at it this way:

If everyone was decent and honest and aboveboard, we wouldn't need laws or lawyers or legal contracts. All business would be conducted on a handshake, because we could entirely trust the other party to be true to the letter and spirit of the agreement.

But that's not the way the world is.

Once upon a time the world had no laws. Which meant, when one man offended another, the other man would avenge himself in whatever way seemed fit. Then the other family would avenge back, and then they'd avenge back, and there would be a cycle of blood feud and revenge that would continue for generations.

The way these conflicts were solved (in part) was by appointing neutral arbiters who had authority to hear both sides of the case and issue a ruling to end the dispute. We also gave these arbiters swords and guns so they could enforce their rulings.

The step after that was to write the rules down so that everyone knew what the rules were ahead of time and no one would be surprised. One of the great moments in human history was when Terentilius forced the Roman Patricians to write down the twelve tables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_tables) and make them public, so that everyone could see and everyone could know the law.

And so we get written codes, interpreted and argued by lawyers and judges, enforced by police, to replace the old system where people did their own interpretation and did their own enforcement, which typically meant lynch mobs and clan feuds.

Law and lawyers are not perfect by any means, and sometimes the system breaks down completely. Sometimes we could do with a lot fewer laws. But it's still a heckuva sight better than what happened before.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RandomNPC]

...

Lawyers can also be abused.

...



The best part by far, I find it totally awesome. Even if I did take it out of context.



Also, CoffeeIncluded, I do complain about going to the doctor.
Once I went for sleep related reasons, told them what I tried before calling the doctor, and was told to get more sleep, and thanks for the co-pay, have a nice day.
More recently I was told to do my own surgery on my toe without even being examined. Toenail got infected on both sides, and the doctor who finally looked at it flipped out about the entire situation.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This is altogether too political in nature to discuss here, laws being a direct function of government and all.