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corpusaant
2011-01-06, 12:46 PM
I couldn't find anything like this in the archives, and I'm making a ninja character.

WotC actually didn't make a clear list of all the different ways that a character could be rendered flat-footed, so I was wondering if the Playground had or could make a list of every way a character could become flat-footed.

Greenish
2011-01-06, 12:52 PM
A character is flat-footed when:

he hasn't acted in the combat yet
is balancing with less than 5 ranks in balance
is the target of certain ToB strikes (and the striker succeeds in the skill check)
is the target of a BlurstrikeMIC weapon (only for the first attack on the round, limited use)
Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

[Edit]: Note that Sudden Strike doesn't require the enemy to be flat footed, only denied dex to AC, which is easier to accomplish.

Critical
2011-01-06, 12:53 PM
Be a dire tortoise.

Angry Bob
2011-01-06, 12:54 PM
Actually using the ninja class? No comment.

If you're looking for ways to trigger sudden strike, pump initiative so you can go first(and act while everyone's flat-footed, get improved feint, become invisible, get a blurstrike weapon, just off the top of my head.

If you have access to the Tome of Battle, though, it's recommended that you use the swordsage instead. Even the rogue sees an improvement over the ninja by virtue of sneak attack being better than sudden strike, and having more skills, to boot.

corpusaant
2011-01-06, 01:09 PM
"[Edit]: Note that Sudden Strike doesn't require the enemy to be flat footed, only denied dex to AC, which is easier to accomplish."


Oh, how do you get an enemy denied Dex to AC? I didn't realize that was different from flat-footing.

Salanmander
2011-01-06, 01:25 PM
The biggest one for ninjas is being invisible. If they can't see you, they lose their dex to AC.

And I keep telling people, if you're planning on focusing on ranged attacks, ninja is /not that bad/. Sudden strike and sneak attack are identical with ranged attacks, and ninja gets a reliable way to trigger it from level 1, which rogue doesn't.

Greenish
2011-01-06, 01:55 PM
Oh, how do you get an enemy denied Dex to AC? I didn't realize that was different from flat-footing.They're quite different. Being invisible, blinking, feinting all work to remove dex from AC, which does exactly what it says.

Flat-footed, on the other hand, has other effects, such as inability to use immediate actions, or to make attacks of opportunity.

And I keep telling people, if you're planning on focusing on ranged attacks, ninja is /not that bad/.Yes they are. Just because rogues aren't better at it doesn't mean a thing. :smallamused:

[Edit]: Ninjas gain Ghost Step (Invisible) on level 2, to nitpick further.

Salanmander
2011-01-06, 02:11 PM
Yes they are. Just because rogues aren't better at it doesn't mean a thing. :smallamused:

[Edit]: Ninjas gain Ghost Step (Invisible) on level 2, to nitpick further.

Well, rogues are the usual sounding board against which ninjas are compared, because they fit in the same niche, and rogue is generally acknowledged to be a solid, though not powergamey, class. Also, rogue and ninja are the two main go-to options for focusing on a sneak-attack-like ability, which is a key criterion for some people/builds.

And whoops about the ghost step (invisible). Level 2 then.

Greenish
2011-01-06, 02:13 PM
Well, rogues are the usual sounding board against which ninjas are compared, because they fit in the same niche, and rogue is generally acknowledged to be a solid, though not powergamey, class. Also, rogue and ninja are the two main go-to options for focusing on a sneak-attack-like ability, which is a key criterion for some people/builds.I'd consider neither as go-to class for ranged combat.

Gullintanni
2011-01-06, 02:14 PM
I'd consider neither as go-to class for ranged combat.

Clerics are obviously the best class for ranged combat.:smalltongue:

Greenish
2011-01-06, 02:17 PM
Clerics are obviously the best class for ranged combat.Well, if you can squeeze DMM on an archivist chassis, I'd nominate them. Some of those ranger spells are damn tasty for persisting.

But I meant a bit more traditional classes, say, ranger, scout and fighter.

Gullintanni
2011-01-06, 02:25 PM
Well, if you can squeeze DMM on an archivist chassis, I'd nominate them. Some of those ranger spells are damn tasty for persisting.

But I meant a bit more traditional classes, say, ranger, scout and fighter.

But the Zen Archery/Wis Casting synergy is so nice. Either way, I suppose that's a debate for another thread. I've never really found archery to be that powerful in general. There are probably ways to min/max an archer that don't involve extra damage dice (sneak attack etc.) but if they exist then I've obviously missed those discussions. :smallfrown:

Otherwise a rogue that dipped into an arcane class could easily use a rod of lesser metamagic quicken, grease and any bow and enter sneak attack nirvana, so given my limited knowledge, I couldn't sell a rogue short as an archer.

Person_Man
2011-01-06, 02:41 PM
Here's my Sneak Attack list. Sudden Strike qualifies for all of them that don't involve flanking.

Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock (Complete Scoundrel): 1st level spell that works on enemies wearing armor for multiple rounds. Buy a wand.

10) Invisibility: Note that most Invisibility effects duplicate the Invisibility spell, which ends as soon as you make your first attack. So it's only useful at low levels, and for traditional scouting and ambushing tactics. The Ninja has Invisibility that lasts for 1 round, but with limited uses per day.

11) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

12) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your own 20% miss chance.

13) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

14) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

15) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

16) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a variety of spells and alchemical items that do this, plus the Focalor (Tome of Magic) or Kas vestige (Dragon Magazine 341), the Sand Dancer feat (Sandstorm), and others.

17) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

18) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

19) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

20) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

21) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're only making 1 attack per turn. Can be augmented to a limited degree with the Insightful Feint spell (Spell Compendium), and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark) it works for a full attack.

22) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

23) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of maneuvers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

24) Confound the Bigfolk (Races of the Wild): It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy then you can move into his square, and the next round hes Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.

Greenish
2011-01-06, 02:43 PM
There are probably ways to min/max an archer that don't involve extra damage dice (sneak attack etc.) but if they exist then I've obviously missed those discussions. :smallfrown:Weapon Specialization + Mastery, and then just have a real fancy bow (splitting, force, bane/holy) and find a way to shoot lots (Rapid Shot, Whirling Frenzy, Time Stands Still, Island in Time, Dancing/Raging Mongoose).

[Edit]:
Here's my Sneak Attack list. Sudden Strike qualifies for all of them that don't involve flanking.Except Telling Blow, I seem to recall. (Unless there's some transparency I'm forgetting.)

WarKitty
2011-01-06, 02:45 PM
Eh, there's at least scout for ranged damage, presuming you don't want to go for the "let's bend a full caster around some more to do something it was never designed to do."


<<another list>>

You forgot wild cohort.

Greenish
2011-01-06, 02:48 PM
presuming you don't want to go for the "let's bend a full caster around some more to do something it was never designed to do."Elven clerics wish to object.

nedz
2011-01-06, 03:30 PM
25) Flick of the Wrist
Quickdraw a light weapon, but only good for one attack.

26) Deadeye shot
Complex to use: you have to ready an action to shoot someone whom one of your allies hits. Yeah great feat :smallbiggrin:

27) Sneak Attack of Opportunity
(Dragon feat so you might reject it on that basis)
Adds sneak damage to your first AoO in a round.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 03:33 PM
Elven clerics wish to object.

Corellon and Shevarash fully expect their servants to practice archery, in fact.

WarKitty
2011-01-06, 03:34 PM
Elven clerics wish to object.

I suppose. I just don't like the whole you can make a cleric be a better archer than the classes that are actually designed to be archers. Welcome to 3.5.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 03:43 PM
I suppose. I just don't like the whole you can make a cleric be a better archer than the classes that are actually designed to be archers. Welcome to 3.5.

I can make a Cleric that is better at anything any other core class can do (excepting its rivals of course). 3.5; more broken then California's budget!

Gullintanni
2011-01-06, 03:44 PM
I suppose. I just don't like the whole you can make a cleric be a better archer than the classes that are actually designed to be archers. Welcome to 3.5.

Don't feel bad. Clerics don't discriminate, they're an equal opportunity outperformer.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 03:48 PM
I suppose. I just don't like the whole you can make a cleric be a better archer than the classes that are actually designed to be archers. Welcome to 3.5.

Whereas I don't like that I can heal someone just as effectively by yelling at them loudly as if I was using divine magic. Welcome to 4e.

I have nothing against any edition of D&D as a whole - they all have their vagaries and quirks. And I see nothing wrong with cleric archers in a thematic sense.