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Keinnicht
2011-01-06, 03:20 PM
So, this might sound ridiculous, but given how crappy Monks are already, I don't think it'd be too unbalanced.

Humans have four limbs. In theory, a martial artist like a monk should be able to use all of these effectively. Basically meaning a monk should have four natural attacks: two involving legs, and two involving hands/arms.

So, why not let Monks take the multi-attack feat?

tyckspoon
2011-01-06, 03:21 PM
Because Unarmed Strikes don't work that way, and that's it.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 03:26 PM
Because Unarmed Strikes don't work that way, and that's it.

But monks don't use Unarmed Strikes, they're not proficient with them. They must use natural attacks. EDIT: /sarcasm

EDIT: As for Multiattack, that lessens the -5 secondary natural attack penalty to -2, since they don't actually have a secondary natural attack this doesn't work. Perhaps giving Monks the Snap Kick feat as a bonus?

Flickerdart
2011-01-06, 03:27 PM
Humans do not have natural attacks, and would gain no benefit from the feat. The class they take has absolutely no bearing on this unless it grants them secondary natural attacks.

Greenish
2011-01-06, 03:38 PM
Humans have four limbs. In theory, a martial artist like a monk should be able to use all of these effectively.They do, for a given definition of "effective". They can attack with any of those, or with head butts, or with groin thrusts, or well, you get the idea.


So, why not let Monks take the multi-attack feat?That's not what you mean.

What you mean is "hey, why not give monks four natural weapons?" The answer is that they scale poorly, and fail to solve some of monk's core problems (improving weapons/armour is expensive, class features have no synergy, MAD).

Keld Denar
2011-01-06, 03:41 PM
I think you mean Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm)?

Multiweapon Fighting explicitly requires 3+ hands. Just because you can make Unarmed Strikes with multiple body parts doesn't mean you qualify for Multiweapon Fighting. If you follow implied patterns in the Monstrous Manual stat blocks, a creature or character has a number of "sets" of iterative attacks equal to the number of limbs capable of wielding standard weapons (like daggers or swords). If you were trying to figure out how many UASs a creature with multiple arms would get, it would be the same as the number of sword attacks that creature would get.

For example, if you took your standard Marilith, and redid a few of her feats to give her Improved Unarmed Strike (along with the Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting feats she's missing...), she could make 6 sets of iterative UASs. One set would be "mainhand" at get full +str bonus to damage, and the other 5 sets would be "offhand". These attacks are not required to be with any specific hand or limb, but the NUMBER of attacks is hand dependant.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 03:46 PM
I think you mean Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm)?

Multiweapon Fighting explicitly requires 3+ hands. Just because you can make Unarmed Strikes with multiple body parts doesn't mean you qualify for Multiweapon Fighting. If you follow implied patterns in the Monstrous Manual stat blocks, a creature or character has a number of "sets" of iterative attacks equal to the number of limbs capable of wielding standard weapons (like daggers or swords). If you were trying to figure out how many UASs a creature with multiple arms would get, it would be the same as the number of sword attacks that creature would get.

For example, if you took your standard Marilith, and redid a few of her feats to give her Improved Unarmed Strike (along with the Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting feats she's missing...), she could make 6 sets of iterative UASs. One set would be "mainhand" at get full +str bonus to damage, and the other 5 sets would be "offhand". These attacks are not required to be with any specific hand or limb, but the NUMBER of attacks is hand dependant.

And it would be the worst Marilith in Demonic history.

Reynard
2011-01-06, 03:47 PM
But monks don't use Unarmed Strikes, they're not proficient with them. They must use natural attacks. EDIT: /sarcasm

EDIT: As for Multiattack, that lessens the -5 secondary natural attack penalty to -2, since they don't actually have a secondary natural attack this doesn't work. Perhaps giving Monks the Snap Kick feat as a bonus?

Snap Kick instead of Flurry of Blows, and give the Monk Full BaB?

Keld Denar
2011-01-06, 03:51 PM
And it would be the worst Marilith in Demonic history.

Not really. One thing to note is that UASs don't occupy any of those hands. That leaves the marilith open to make 6 slam attacks (at -5 due to the rules for Secondary Natural Weapons) on top of her UAS iteratives. A typical Marilith with JUST Imp UAS would go from 9 attacks (3 mainhand swords, 5 offhand swords and a tail slap) to 15 attacks per round (3 mainhand UASs, 5 offhand UASs, 6 slams, and a tail slap) by switching from swords to UASs. Sure, base damage on her UAS would only be 1d4, but even half +str damage on all those extra attacks would probably make up most of the difference, especially if she could get a Superior Magic Fang cast on her.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 03:55 PM
Not really. One thing to note is that UASs don't occupy any of those hands. That leaves the marilith open to make 6 slam attacks (at -5 due to the rules for Secondary Natural Weapons) on top of her UAS iteratives. A typical Marilith with JUST Imp UAS would go from 9 attacks (3 mainhand swords, 5 offhand swords and a tail slap) to 15 attacks per round (3 mainhand UASs, 5 offhand UASs, 6 slams, and a tail slap) by switching from swords to UASs. Sure, base damage on her UAS would only be 1d4, but even half +str damage on all those extra attacks would probably make up most of the difference, especially if she could get a Superior Magic Fang cast on her.

The damage would be similar sure, but the issue would be that everything a Marilith fights has DR. If it goes up and punches a Pit Fiend 35 times it just reduced its damage by a lot. The players may not see it that way, not having a lot of DR, but Mariliths specifically fight in the Blood War and wouldn't do to great with their fists.

Elric VIII
2011-01-06, 04:23 PM
Snap Kick instead of Flurry of Blows, and give the Monk Full BaB?

This is actually a good place to start for reducing the suckiness of Monks. Although never implemented, I have thought that if a player of mine wanted to play a Monk, I would give them pounce. TBH, they deserve it more than Barbarians.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-06, 04:26 PM
The damage would be similar sure, but the issue would be that everything a Marilith fights has DR. If it goes up and punches a Pit Fiend 35 times it just reduced its damage by a lot. The players may not see it that way, not having a lot of DR, but Mariliths specifically fight in the Blood War and wouldn't do to great with their fists.

Give them Superior unarmed striked and they will have an easier time fighting devils; besides I think that the "natural" enemies of the marilith would be the horned demon not pit-fiends.

Keld Denar
2011-01-06, 04:39 PM
Eh, Marilith's aren't equipped to deal with Devils anway. The higher tiers all need Silver AND Good weapons. If a Marilith were to hold one Holy weapon, much less 6, she's be seriously nerfing herself with the negative levels imposed. So then, it really just breaks down the the base damage dice (1d4 UAS vs 1d6-1d8 shortsword/longsword) and any special abilities of the swords (such as Wounding would be effective vs Devils).

Unless she got herself one of those 6-handed swords suggested in Savage Species and performed some really unholy 6 handed Power Attacks!

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 04:52 PM
I would agree except that DR works on each individual attack, so lots of weaker attacks don't add up to the same as less stronger attacks. So taking a 1d4+9 against DR 10 you get only 1-3 damage a hit. So giving the Marilith 15 of those you get 15-45 damage a full attack, as compared to 2d6+9x6, with each attack doing 1-11, so 6-66. Thats not counting her extra attacks with the main hand, which moves it up to a maximum of 99 damage without crits, compared to 45 damage with the fists. So the final total against a DR of 10 is 9-99 for the swords, and 15-45 for the fists.

Now on a normal full attack against none DR we get 150-195 damage on a full attack with the fists, to 99-189 with the swords. So the fists are actually better when not taking into account DR, but are considerable worse when DR is involved.

Someone else do the average damage, I am sticking with the ranges :P

Keld Denar
2011-01-06, 05:13 PM
Oh, right...stupid large longswords are 2d6 base. Durr...

Superior Magic Fang vs Chained Greater Magic Weapon really helps a lot to close the gap though. The extra 6 extra attacks (from slams) at +5 damage after DR is 30 damage per round, for free, plus the SMF also affects the tail slap which results in another 5 damage per round.

Chained GMW would result in 8x5= +40 extra damage on your 9-99 range for a final range of 49-139 damage per round.

Superior Magic Fang would result in 15x5 = +75 extra damage on your 15-45 range for a final range of 80-110 damage per round.

Without DR, the numbers go to 225-270 with fists vs 139-229 with swords. Big difference there.

Lower max damage, but higher minimum damage as well. Of course, thats neglecting the doubled crit range of the longswords though, which makes the calcs a little more complicated, as would various magical properties of the magic swords Marilith's often carry, and abilities like Wounding really tip the numbers.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 05:31 PM
Actually I think your righter then your giving yourself credit for; I forgot to account for larger sized slams (1-8) and large unarmed strikes (?) which would tilt it more in your favor. On the other, other hand the swords let you apply lots of nasty stuff to them, and get crits (which you could apply the Power Crit feat to).

...Does TWFings iteratives apply to the extra hands? Say the Marilith got GTW would each off hand get two hits? Cause then the whole thing has to be moved again.

Keld Denar
2011-01-06, 05:37 PM
It wouldn't be Two Weapon Fighting (Improved or Greater), it would be Multiweapon Fighting (Improved or Greater). Stupidly, the base MM Marilith doesn't have Improved or Greater MWF.

It wouldn't matter much though. If you gave IMWF or GMWF to the Marilith, it would gain more UAS attacks too.

Btw, base UAS damage for a Marilith would be 1d4 (since medium UAS damage is 1d3, and 1d3 sizes up to 1d4 at large). Now, if you reallotted another feat to give the Marilith Superior Unarmed Strike, she'd have 2d6 damage UASs.


Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword)

Change WF(Longsword) to IUAS, Combat Expertese to SUAS would go a long way toward eqalling them.

EDIT: Thread hijack: Success!

megabyter5
2011-01-06, 05:38 PM
Not one-hundred percent related to the topic, but I had a thought recently. Monk discussions always seem to bring up the fact that you can't move and use flurry of blows in the same round. Looking at FoB, I think the smartest way to improve it would be to let the extra attack(s) be added on to either a full attack or a single attack. Then, obviously, give them full BAB, and you've got a character that can actually hit something. Any thoughts?

MeeposFire
2011-01-06, 05:46 PM
I gave monks a variant of the snap kick feat for a class feature...

At level one you can take an extra attack by taking a -2 on attacks this round. Notice this is not just full attacks.

You then got a second attack at the same time as the second attack in flurry and you get a smaller penalty at the same rate as well. I then call this the new flurry of blows.

This made the classic bad combo of spring attack actually good and kept the class mobile which allows it to have much greater synergy. Also is much less confusing than what they did in PF.

Still debating whether monks should still be able to take the original snap kick on top of this new flurry ability...

Favorite monk items and abilities are in Eberron with the mighty arms graft, battlefists, and warforged. Solves problems with magic weaponry (also PF does fix this in an ok fashion as well).

What do mean armor does not scale well bracers of armor are cheap and can be made to have armor enchantments like fortification (Arms and equipment guide). Combo this with the robes that give armor bonuses you can do very well especially with incorporeal attackers.

EDIT: To the above poster that is essentially what I did.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 05:51 PM
Right, but increasing them by the same amount increases the swords stats more then it does the UAS's. The reason the UAS does more damage as is from the natural attacks you can stack on top of it. Adding them in equal proportions doesn't help the UAS very much. Apparently you can't add extra iterative that way. So stupid.

And if you get to change feats to optimize so do I! :P Curse you!

And I would go IUAS and Improved Natural Attack [slam] so that your slam attacks move up to 2d6 as well.

Keld Denar
2011-01-06, 05:56 PM
Apparently you can't add extra iterative that way. So stupid.
Why not? If you changed WF(Longsword) to Improved MWF, the Marilith would gain 5 more attacks (at -5). If you changed Combat Expertese to Greater MWF, she would gain another 5 attacks (at -10).


And if you get to change feats to optimize so do I! :P Curse you!

And I would go IUAS and Improved Natural Attack [slam] so that your slam attacks move up to 2d6 as well.

Its more of an advantage to use real weapons, as you don't have to burn a feat on IUAS. Then again, you could always just buy a Fang Ring (Draconomnomnomnomnomnomicon) for IUAS, Imp Natural Attack(UAS) and a point of Con damage on a critical hit. Not bad for 10,000g, eh? That would bump her up to 1d6 UASs (or 3d6 with SUAS)

megabyter5
2011-01-06, 06:06 PM
EDIT: To the above poster that is essentially what I did.

Oh. Well, you used a lot more words than me, so I'll just forget my idea and go with yours. :smalltongue:

I also had the idea that monks would get plenty of mileage with skirmish as a class feature. If we do alternate FoB, full BAB and skirmish, that might just bump it up to T4.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 06:10 PM
I mismisreread the feat. lol

I gotta get ready for class, but I'll run up the extra attacks versus the fist damage attacks when I get back for a better comparison. Are you using the INA on the UAS or the Slams?

EDIT: We are the God-Kings of derailment!

MeeposFire
2011-01-06, 06:25 PM
Oh. Well, you used a lot more words than me, so I'll just forget my idea and go with yours. :smalltongue:

I also had the idea that monks would get plenty of mileage with skirmish as a class feature. If we do alternate FoB, full BAB and skirmish, that might just bump it up to T4.

Sorry I meant that in a more "it can be done and works well" manner not "I did this already". So I was trying to say your idea is a good one and one that you are not alone in sharing! Go monk ideas!

Runestar
2011-01-06, 06:29 PM
It's not that strong an idea. I mean, totemists already get 4 claw attacks at 2nd lv. :smallamused:

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-06, 09:40 PM
Just have Flurry of Blows grant 1(2) bonus attacks whenever the Monk would be doing a single Attack(even an Attack of Opportunity, if you'd like).

Rainbownaga
2011-01-07, 12:51 AM
Getting back to the OP, technically the monk qualifies for Multiattack (since its unarmed attacks are natural weapons and it can use any part of its body as a natural weapon) but unless you're a creature that has a secondary natural attack it's pretty pointless.

Admiral Squish
2011-01-07, 02:54 AM
Hmm... would it help monks, if you counted them as having four unarmed strikes (two hands, two feet), or even go with the muay thai interpretation and say eight (hands, feet, knees and elbows)?

Flickerdart
2011-01-07, 09:35 AM
Hmm... would it help monks, if you counted them as having four unarmed strikes (two hands, two feet), or even go with the muay thai interpretation and say eight (hands, feet, knees and elbows)?
No, because unarmed strikes still obey the regular weapon progression for bonus attacks, and are reliant on BAB rather than the amount you physically have. Physically, a Monk has infinity unarmed strikes (since she can strike with any part of her body).

Admiral Squish
2011-01-07, 09:41 AM
No, because unarmed strikes still obey the regular weapon progression for bonus attacks, and are reliant on BAB rather than the amount you physically have. Physically, a Monk has infinity unarmed strikes (since she can strike with any part of her body).

Look, I'm not asking if that is currently the case. I was asking if it would help if it were the case. And that's why I went with a specific number as opposed to saying 'infinity armed strikes'. If I make it, via houserule or homebrew, that the monk, in addition to having his usual iteratives, could add in extra limbs on a full attack as secondary natural weapons.

Fouredged Sword
2011-01-07, 09:41 AM
A monk CAN take multiattack, if you also have two other natural attacks. A shifter monk with those two claw attacks they can get would qualify. warforged can also get two natural attacks with a feat or two. You then can add your natural attacks onto your full attack as secondary natural weapons while makeing your main and itirative attacks with your unarmed strike.

Myth
2011-01-07, 10:12 AM
A monk CAN take multiattack, if you also have two other natural attacks. A shifter monk with those two claw attacks they can get would qualify. warforged can also get two natural attacks with a feat or two. You then can add your natural attacks onto your full attack as secondary natural weapons while makeing your main and itirative attacks with your unarmed strike.

Sadly no, the WotC 3.5 FAQ disproves this. You can't make natural attacks with the same appendage you are using to make an UA with. That discouraged me greatly because I wanted to make an Unarmed Swordsage Vampire NPC who would drain a bajillion levels if she got off a full attack with Time Stands Still.

AyeGill
2011-01-07, 10:17 AM
Sadly no, the WotC 3.5 FAQ disproves this. You can't make natural attacks with the same appendage you are using to make an UA with. That discouraged me greatly because I wanted to make an Unarmed Swordsage Vampire NPC who would drain a bajillion levels if she got off a full attack with Time Stands Still.

but the claws are on his hands, and he's using his feet for the UAs

Keld Denar
2011-01-07, 10:22 AM
Sadly no, the WotC 3.5 FAQ disproves this. You can't make natural attacks with the same appendage you are using to make an UA with. That discouraged me greatly because I wanted to make an Unarmed Swordsage Vampire NPC who would drain a bajillion levels if she got off a full attack with Time Stands Still.

Actually, the Rules of the Game articles (about the same validity as the FAQ, for what its worth) approve of combining UASs with natural attacks.

That said, a Vampire can only Energy Drain once per round, regardless of how many attacks it gets.

Energy Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by a vampires slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Roderick_BR
2011-01-07, 10:41 AM
Flurry already give them plenty of attacks. The problem is that they, like everyone else, need a full round action to make more than 1 attack every round.
Just do like a lot of people does, and allow them to flurry as a default action.

Flickerdart
2011-01-07, 11:06 AM
There are a bunch of ways you can drain a bajillion levels, for example as a Wight (Savage Species) that drains on any natural attack, or Savage Vampire (Libris Mortis) that drains on claw hits.

Person_Man
2011-01-07, 11:39 AM
In my opinion, this demonstrates a common misconception about power levels in 3.X/Pathfinder D&D, and is the source of much poorly conceived homebrew as well.

Power is determined primarily by resources, not just numerical/mechanical strength. A Tier 6 CW Samurai can deal hundreds of points of damage using a standard Power Attack combo. Giving the CW Samurai an additional attack or bonus to hit or other modifier does not significantly increase it's power level. To do so, you need to give it more/new abilities.

In this case, just giving the Monk an additional attack(s) or better To-Hit generally won't help it that much. It essentially needs a complete rewrite. And when you do so, it ceases to be the Monk in many ways, and becomes something else (usually something close to a Swordsage or a Psychic Warrior, depending on who's writing it).

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-07, 11:41 AM
As some examples
A Centaur/Monk X would get:

Unarmed Strikes(assume using human half's arms): 1+BAB/5(rounded down)+1(2) from Flurry(+ whatever else from Snap Kick/Roundabout Kick, as triggering conditions occur)
Hoof Stamps: 2(4 if opponent is prone?)

Awakened Lion/Monk would get:

Unarmed Strike(assume one claw is used): Same as above.
Bite: As normal.
Claw Strikes: 1 from the front paws(the other is occupied by the Unarmed Strike)
Rake: As normal.

Lizardfolk/Monk:

US: As above.
Bite: As normal.
Claw Strikes: 1 or 2. This part depends on how you want to play your Unarmed Strikes. By "default", it should use one of your hands. Or you could choose to use Headbutts, then it should probably replace your Bite instead. Or you could even say you're a master of Tail-Fu, slapping opponents 5 times a round with it. Easiest way is to just say you kick your opponents for the Unarmed Strikes.
Tail Slap: Special. Only with a Feat(not really relevant to this discussion, but if you use the Tail-Fu option above, this attack will be replaced instead).

Generally speaking, if you're a quadruped Monk, assume that you're using one of your limb attacks for the Unarmed Strike. If you're a biped, assume that you're using one of your locomotive limbs to kick(too bad if that also has a natural attack).

Any other examples that need explaining?

Keld Denar
2011-01-07, 11:52 AM
From the Combat section of the SRD under Attacking Unarmed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm):

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

"The following" are simply details on making and provoking AoOs.

UASs are not required to be made with a limb at all. They can be made with other body parts as desired, and shouldn't in any way impact whether or not a limb is available to make natural weapon attacks even if they did.

That said, you can't Flurry of Blows in the same round you attack with non-UAS natural weapons. Natural weapons are not special monk weapons. Hits with natural weapons are still part of the same full attack as the Flurry of Blows, and they can not be combined.

MeeposFire
2011-01-07, 11:59 AM
In my opinion, this demonstrates a common misconception about power levels in 3.X/Pathfinder D&D, and is the source of much poorly conceived homebrew as well.

Power is determined primarily by resources, not just numerical/mechanical strength. A Tier 6 CW Samurai can deal hundreds of points of damage using a standard Power Attack combo. Giving the CW Samurai an additional attack or bonus to hit or other modifier does not significantly increase it's power level. To do so, you need to give it more/new abilities.

In this case, just giving the Monk an additional attack(s) or better To-Hit generally won't help it that much. It essentially needs a complete rewrite. And when you do so, it ceases to be the Monk in many ways, and becomes something else (usually something close to a Swordsage or a Psychic Warrior, depending on who's writing it).

If we want a tier discussion then there is no way to make any warrior style class into a tier 1 or 2 as those require ways to change the world that generally people would not be comfortable giving warrior type characters (warriors being mostly non-magical).

Adding extra attacks to a full attack routine alone is not much of a power boost I agree but being able to add attacks to a standard action adds a lot because it brings back mobility and prevents enemies from screwing your warrior in a fight. This is why TOB classes are so highly thought of. There have been barbs and even fighters that can outdamage a warblade, for instance, but the warblade is still better to have because they possess the ability to be useful when they can not charge or make full attacks. If a fighter had more skill points, a better skill list, and the ability to make full attacks all the time whether they moved or not they would certainly be tier 4 and might even be heading close to tier 3 depending on how restrictive the full attack ability is.