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DrizztFan24
2011-01-06, 03:25 PM
So...how long does it take the average playgrounder to learn a new piano song? I am the type of person that normally picks things up very quickly. But I am also incredibly impatient when it comes to my learning something. So creating a new procedural memory, like learning a new piano song, is incredibly frustrating for me, because there aren't really any ways to speed the process up. And when I am not making as much progress as I would like, I get frustrated; when I get frustrated I stop; when I stop then I stop learning because I am no longer at the piano (kind of like now). It is a vicious reinforcing cycle. So I was just wondering if I am in the same boat as everyone else (in terms of learning time) or if it just seems to be me.

And I guess it doesn't have to be playing piano...any procedural memory seems like it would qualify.

Z3ro
2011-01-06, 03:34 PM
I play several instruments, piano included (Violin's the favorite right now). For me, when I reach a point that I can't learn a specific song, I move on to something I can do (either an easier song or exercizes). I find that after I practice other things for a while and go back, the difficult piece is easier to play. The key, I guess, is to keep playing something. Simply getting better at playing, in general, will make you better at playing what you want, specifically (that's how I do it, at least).

Oh, and try playing in a group if possible. I learn much better when I'm in a pressure situation than if I'm just doing it for myself with no time restraints. A piece that might take me 6 months to learn just for myself might only take 1 month if I have to play it for a concert. But again, that's just me.

Icewalker
2011-01-07, 01:08 AM
There's the point of sight reading, where you can play a new song you've never seen before right off, but that's not only difficult, but not necessary to be a good pianist.

I know I have the same problem you do, it's why I've never ended up great at piano...it is a more difficult instrument than many, as you can do more with it.

Mauve Shirt
2011-01-07, 09:11 AM
I'm not very good at sight reading. I'm better than I used to be, I can recognize chords faster, but I certainly can't just sit down and play a piece. I have to practice it a page or two at a time. And it is slow, especially when the music is difficult. That's why I pick pieces I really want to learn, because if I don't I'll just never practice them.

Eldan
2011-01-07, 09:17 AM
I was pretty horrible at playing the piano in general. I've played for *counts* 13 years before I quit, with weekly lessons and daily training. And in the end, it would still take me half a dozen weeks at least to learn any new piece.
Of course, I mainly started studying the piano because my doctor told me I really needed to do something for my manual dexterity, so I have at least a bit of an excuse.
It was a pretty strange idea anyway: I'm clumsy, my fingers are short and stubby, I'm basically tone-deaf*, I have no sense of rhythm, and I don't even like music.

*Teacher: "No no no! See, you played this chord *plays*, but the real one his this! *Plays* Don't you hear the difference?"
Me: "They sound different, but none of them sounds any more right than the other..."

Happened all the time.

DrizztFan24
2011-01-07, 03:43 PM
I don't even like music.


I mourn for you. You poor, poor thing.

AsteriskAmp
2011-01-08, 03:39 PM
I was like you, it took me a lot of time to actually get to play a piece and get it completely. Also, I'm completely useless at sight reading, in fact the only reason I could play in the school's orchestra was because I had to memorize the complete piece if I got the Melody part.

But there is a shortcut to learning pieces.

When you learn a piece you got to learn both hands, and even then, some pieces sound a little empty, in fact in my case I play mostly videogame music, and some transcriptions sound too mechanic.

That's where playing by chords come in, you learn how to identify chords and convert a sheet music into a fake sheet.

By learning, the 13 main chords you already have 50% of the music ever written at your service.

After learning the main chords you will find that the alterations done to them (minor, seventh, augmented, suspended, diminished) are the same for each chord. (The ninth, the eleventh and the thirteenth are really the combination of two chord)

Learning chords allows you, not only to play faster since you can simplify the left hand or completely rework it but also to make the right hand sound more full since it's possible to play the melody note on top and the chord backing it up while the left hand plays the chord at an octave.

Chords also serve you for improvising and even writing music, music is written around chords. Improvising is done through chords also, and reharmonization (aka making a piece sound different but equally if not more awesome).

Chords also allow you to play from fake books which only have the chord name and the melody line that you can easily follow since it will only show one note at a time since you will just use the chord on top.


It took me months to learn a piece before I got into chords, now not only do I learn a piece by the day at times, but can improvise and reharmonize them easily.

To give you an example: U.N. Owen was her, five pages of sheet music.
When you break it down it's just giving different voicings (read: you play the same notes only in different order, so a first inversion C [a type of voicing is inversion] is really C [C E G] only in different order [G3 C4 E4] )

The complete song can be summed as:

2x (Dm - C - Dm -Gm)
2x (Dm/Bb - C - Dm - Gm) [the / means that the right hand plays the chord at the left and the left hand plays the chord at the right]

4x (Dm -Dbm - Em -Eb)

2x (Dm/Bb - E/C - F/C -G - Dm/Bb -C - Dm - Dm)

If you can play the mellody by ear you already have the song ready.

After that, there are other uses of chord, for example, re-harmonization (I mainly used it to convert a song into jazz)

You use a progression with the same amount of beats (in this case 4) to give a different backing up.

That's really only the tip of the icebergs, chords are pretty much the basis for piano playing.

Eldan
2011-01-09, 09:50 AM
I mourn for you. You poor, poor thing.

*shrug*
Never missed it so far. The only annoying thing is when people want to show me their favourite music to prove to me that I just haven't found the right music yet.

truemane
2011-01-09, 11:27 AM
*shrug*
Never missed it so far. The only annoying thing is when people want to show me their favourite music to prove to me that I just haven't found the right music yet.

I get that all the time with beer. I don't drink and have never enjoyed the taste of alcohol, BUT despite the fact that I'm 35 years old and know my own mind, and went to university and did all the things university people do, people still insist that I DO like beer, I just need the RIGHT beer.

I tell them, "In your head, change the word 'beer' for 'piss' and that's what you sound like to me. So when you say, 'You just really need to try the German beer, it's so much better.' What I hear is 'German piss.'"

But no one gets it. It's inconceivable to them that I just don't like beer. I tell them that find it inconceivable that they don't like post-war Japanese cinema. But the irony is lost on them.

AsteriskAmp
2011-01-09, 11:38 AM
I get that all the time with beer. I don't drink and have never enjoyed the taste of alcohol, BUT despite the fact that I'm 35 years old and know my own mind, and went to university and did all the things university people do, people still insist that I DO like beer, I just need the RIGHT beer.

I tell them, "In your head, change the word 'beer' for 'piss' and that's what you sound like to me. So when you say, 'You just really need to try the German beer, it's so much better.' What I hear is 'German piss.'"

But no one gets it. It's inconceivable to them that I just don't like beer. I tell them that find it inconceivable that they don't like post-war Japanese cinema. But the irony is lost on them.

But music is a different case actually, since it fulfils several functions that cannot be entirely omitted. Apathy to music I would understand, but a dislike for the sheer concept is egregious considering the fact that it's virtually everywhere in the cliché sense of the concept and the literal meaning.

Mind me, I said improbable, not impossible, but one thing is having apathy to music (i.e. you don't care what is playing, it's just background sound, fills emptiness, etc) and another thing is not liking it (i.e. You dread the sound of music and try to avoid it or have an annoyance at hearing it).

While it's possible, I find it weird since your wording of choice implies that it annoys you to hear music, which means that a percentage of public spaces are annoying to you.

On the other hand, you can't be a passive receiver of beer in the sense that you have to have a concious choice to ingest it otherwise you don't feel it, ergo it can be circumscribed easily, you merely do not drink it. While music allows one to be a passive receptacle, your hearing won't just negate sound, it will allow it through so a dislike of music means you cannot shun the annoyance unless you wear earplugs or cover your ears constantly.

Eldan
2011-01-09, 11:41 AM
I don't really dread music. But for me, music is just part of the background noise other humans generate all the time. It's just kinda there. Like that constant sound of cars on a highway you here while hiking, or people talking on the train. It's not worse than any other noise, but I certainly don't enjoy it.

AsteriskAmp
2011-01-09, 11:43 AM
I don't really dread music. But for me, music is just part of the background noise other humans generate all the time. It's just kinda there. Like that constant sound of cars on a highway you here while hiking, or people talking on the train. It's not worse than any other noise, but I certainly don't enjoy it.

That's perfectly reasonable, you don't find pleasure on a occurrence of your medium.

Did you find a dexterity training replacement?

Moff Chumley
2011-01-09, 01:14 PM
That's what HAY LOW is for. :smallcool:

AsteriskAmp
2011-01-09, 01:46 PM
That's what HAY LOW is for. :smallcool:

I know I will regret asking this but...

What is Hay Low?

Moff Chumley
2011-01-09, 02:11 PM
Halo. Like, ya know, the vidja gaem. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2011-01-09, 03:33 PM
Miniature painting mostly, these days. I actually enjoy it, even though I need to hold one hand with the other so I don't shake.

And typing. Learning what these mysterious "internet chats" were in High School helped me a lot.

AsteriskAmp
2011-01-09, 03:40 PM
Miniature painting mostly, these days. I actually enjoy it, even though I need to hold one hand with the other so I don't shake.

And typing. Learning what these mysterious "internet chats" were in High School helped me a lot.

Good God, You can paint those things?
Sir, you don't need training for manual dexterity.

My hand actually spasmodically convulses when I have the brush in my hand, my tries at this have varied from painting the roof to getting my glasses green, the sad part, I was using blue paint that time.

Not even holding my hand with the other allows me anything more than a paint bath.

Eldan
2011-01-09, 04:03 PM
Oh, mine does too. I just paint minis without many details. And lots and lots and lots of redoing everything. I've gotten better, though. I mean, I can type pretty fast now. Used to be I couldn't even hold a fork or a pencil.

And only a few days ago, I managed cutting my forehead while shaving my chin. So there's that.

Dvandemon
2011-01-10, 02:58 PM
God would I love to play the piano. I tried to learn at church... once a week... for a month