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Rasman
2011-01-06, 04:45 PM
One of the players in my campaign recently had his character die, literally turned to dust and we don't have the means to rez him, so he's wanting to run a Mindbender out of Complete Arcane now. He asked me for some help building it. I've never really looked at the class, but I figured I'd give it a shot anyway and as I always do, I look to all of you EVER so helpful people. You are my Bardic Knowledge.

Right now he's going Wizard5/Mindbender5, which seems to be earliest entry available, and his only feats so far are Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for Enchantment spells.

From my looking at the class, it really only seems like a one level dip would be best, but this is a very much "play what you want" type of campaign.

Is there a better way of going about this or a way to make Mindbender not feel as weak?

Waker
2011-01-06, 04:48 PM
Well, I'd suggest tossing in a little bit of Master Specialist from Complete Mage and go with Enchantment. Easy requirements, no lost caster levels and resisting your enchantment spells becomes a much more annoying trial.

dextercorvia
2011-01-06, 04:50 PM
Wizard3/MasterSpecialist2/Mindbender1/Master Specialist+X?

Actually Beguiler might be better. They get good non enchantment support, but have that same sneaky dominating thing going.

Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Beguiler+19 isn't bad at all.

Mindsight is the feat he wants to take at 6.

Aspenor
2011-01-06, 04:50 PM
Mindbender pretty much is a 1 level dip.

If your DM feels up to it, Nightmare Spinner has a suggested enchantment adaptation. He would have to house rule it, but the suggested adaptation is strong. Your enchantments become able to affect creatures not normally affected by them, which is huge for an enchanter.

Waker
2011-01-06, 04:56 PM
Well, the reason I mentioned Master Specialist (Enchantment) is because at 4th level you get Minor School Esoterica, which means that targets of your enchantment spells don't get a save for being attacked in combat or for performing an action that goes against their nature.

NekoJoker
2011-01-06, 05:05 PM
On build advice, how about trying Master Specialist first [from Complete Mage], a 3-4 levels will give you some cool stuff?

Try the Enchanter version of it, since he is a wizard specializing should not be a problem, and since the prC gives you Skill Focus [spellcraft] and Greater Spell Focus for free it saves you a couple of feats

now... about being able to play a superb enchanter and mindbender; this may be of use; this is the Enchanter Handbook:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867266/Enchanter_Handbook

and this is a Guide to Enchantmentt spells that you may find useful.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869066/Treantmonks_guide_to_Enchantment:_Gods_tools

hope this is useful

EDIT: I got Swiftbladed...T_T

Rasman
2011-01-06, 05:27 PM
Wizard3/MasterSpecialist2/Mindbender1/Master Specialist+X?

Actually Beguiler might be better. They get good non enchantment support, but have that same sneaky dominating thing going.

Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Beguiler+19 isn't bad at all.

Mindsight is the feat he wants to take at 6.

Mindsight...wow...that's pretty freakin awesome...he actually really likes the idea, so it's a Def in the build

I'm going to look at the Beguiler...didn't really give it much thought, but seems interesting for his concept and the oodles of skill points will be a good draw for him

Person_Man
2011-01-06, 05:28 PM
Is that Alex Louis Armstrong made into an OoTS character? Because if so, that's awesome.

Anywho, the key for a Mindbender is locating good targets for Eternal Charm/Dominate/Thrall. You basically want to use them as your tools in combat, while hanging back and casting battlefield control and buff spells. I would also suggest taking Practiced Caster, to raise his caster level.

Also, be sure to use your telepathy to it's fullest extent. Take the Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness), do a lot of detective work/roleplaying, manipulate others into doing your tasks for you, etc.

Rasman
2011-01-06, 08:59 PM
On build advice, how about trying Master Specialist first [from Complete Mage], a 3-4 levels will give you some cool stuff?

Try the Enchanter version of it, since he is a wizard specializing should not be a problem, and since the prC gives you Skill Focus [spellcraft] and Greater Spell Focus for free it saves you a couple of feats

now... about being able to play a superb enchanter and mindbender; this may be of use; this is the Enchanter Handbook:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867266/Enchanter_Handbook

and this is a Guide to Enchantmentt spells that you may find useful.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869066/Treantmonks_guide_to_Enchantment:_Gods_tools

hope this is useful

EDIT: I got Swiftbladed...T_T

that is...exceedingly useful...I must have rolled well on my Bardic Knowledge XD


Is that Alex Louis Armstrong made into an OoTS character? Because if so, that's awesome.

it might be :smallredface::smallbiggrin:


Anywho, the key for a Mindbender is locating good targets for Eternal Charm/Dominate/Thrall. You basically want to use them as your tools in combat, while hanging back and casting battlefield control and buff spells. I would also suggest taking Practiced Caster, to raise his caster level.

Also, be sure to use your telepathy to it's fullest extent. Take the Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness), do a lot of detective work/roleplaying, manipulate others into doing your tasks for you, etc.

I do want to keep it fairly simple for him...he's not exactly...an optimizer at heart, thus why I was suggesting the one level dip, but I'm working with him now to see exactly what he wants...my only real worry about the Mindbender is the DC of his abilities...he'd have to be REALLY selective of what he uses them on.

EDIT: Ok, the build thusfar is going to be Beguiler5/Mindbender10/Master Specialist4/X1

Our DM Houseruled that he'd let Beguiler count as a Specialist School in order to qualify.

Any thoughts on an awesome one level dip class to finish this off?

Dead_Jester
2011-01-06, 09:19 PM
Depending on if you want a Mindbender or if you want a character that messes with people's minds, I'd either second the master specialist route with a dip in mindbender. If you prefer the second, than the classical SCM with a level of mindbender for telepathy is a classic.

Waker
2011-01-07, 12:03 AM
I'd say take 6 levels in Beguiler. At 6th level your Surprise Casting becomes a move action (or free action if you have Improved Feint) which can be handy for applying your Cloaked Casting ability to a target.

Endarire
2011-01-07, 12:08 AM
What about going Kalashtar Psion (Telepath)5/Mindbender1/Thrallherd10? Mindbender has a psionic adaptation section, Mindsight is uber, and getting disposable minions that replenish every day is downright sweet.

Rasman
2011-01-07, 01:13 AM
I'd say take 6 levels in Beguiler. At 6th level your Surprise Casting becomes a move action (or free action if you have Improved Feint) which can be handy for applying your Cloaked Casting ability to a target.

I feel kinda dumb for not thinking about that...that's an easy fix and it's TECHNICALLY better than Fatespinner1 since he's probably going to take improved Feint anyway

Now I just have to work on the feat selection

Arzul
2017-02-01, 03:56 PM
i find that Bard instead of wizard or sorcerer is better for mindbender cause you can take it quicker that way though race is what should be looked at for it as well

Grod_The_Giant
2017-02-01, 04:55 PM
I feel kinda dumb for not thinking about that...that's an easy fix and it's TECHNICALLY better than Fatespinner1 since he's probably going to take improved Feint anyway

Now I just have to work on the feat selection
Shadow Weave Magic is a great choice; it's basically Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Focus (Enchantment), and Spell Focus (Necromancy) in a single package. Also qualifies you for Insidious Magic, which makes your ongoing spells harder to detect-- good if you want to charm/dominate important people. If you go that route, a level of Shadow Adept gets you Insidious Magic for free, along with another less-useful feat. Unsettling Enchantment is fun too, imposing a minor penalty on anyone who saves against your enchantment regardless of result.

There's really not a great way to make the Mindbender not stink, though, given all those lost caster levels. Your best bet is to go in as an Ardent (Complete Psionic) and take Practiced Manifester. Ardent are unique in that their power access is based solely on manifester level, not class level, so the feat sort of turns it from a 5/10 casting class to a 9/10 one. You still lose out on a lot of powers known, mind, but at least your access to higher-level powers isn't ruined. Grab, oh, Communication, Fate, Force and Mental Power for a good telepath/telekinetic build.