Optimizing a rogue-ish character?

[Essence_of_War]

One of my friends is running a 1-shot adventure for a group of ECL 8 characters. No more than +2 from LA+RHD. I've been asked to make a rogue-ish/skill monkey character. They must have a fairly good disable device/open locks.

My stats (before racial mods) are:
17
16
15
15
12
14
And can be arranged to taste.

House rules:
We gain feats at every odd level instead of every 3rd level, and get a stat point every 3rd level instead of every 4th level. Max hp for 1st-3rd, roll normally thereafter re-rolling 1s. No flaws, no traits.

Unfortunately I can't use ToB since I need access to disable device and open lock as class skills.

I was planning to do:
Human Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/ Invisible Blade 1
Stats (after mods, no equipment):
Str 12
Dex 20
Con 15
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 15

Feats:
1 - Two-Weapon Fighting
3 - Point Blank Shot
5 - Far Shot
7 - Daring Outlaw
human: Imp. Initiative
bonus(swashbuckler) : weapon finesse

Is this a reasonable approach? Is it worth the 2 feat tax to get the Invisible Blade, or am I better off just going back to swashbuckler?

[Devmaar]

If you take Able Learner at first level you could go Human Paragon2/Swordsage6, 4th level manoeuvres, any skills you want and a bonus feat to replace the one you spent on Able Learner.
VV He explained it better

(also, your build is only ECL 7)

[Siosilvar]

Invisible Blade should never have had the Point Blank Shot and Far Shot requirements. That's a holdover from when Master Thrower was still a part of it; the creator said so himself.

Oddly, that's not in the errata.


If you have access to Races of Destiny, Able Learner will let you take cross-class ranks for 1 point. Combine this with Rogue as your first level, and you'll have no problem with Open Lock or Disable Device (as they were class skills once, the max is the same as the class skill max, because it's character level +3, not class level +3).

If you want your ToB, you now have access to it.

[Saint GoH]

If I recall, Invisible Blade is a more martial PrC (less skills, more BAB) so I'm not sure its worth the feat sink.

I second the races of destiny "Able Learner".


Also, obligatory Factotum from Dungeonscape suggestion :smallbiggrin:

[Devmaar]

Actually Factotum makes a better first level than Human Paragon or Rogue because it makes everything a class skill. Say sometime you decide it might kind of cool to have Autohypnosis and Lucid Dreaming, sure thing :smallsmile:


Disclaimer: Do not take ranks in Autohypnosis and Lucid Dreaming

[Draz74]

Alternatively, you could get some Tome of Battle goodness just by dipping/multiclassing. Rogue 6 / Swordsage 2 or Factotum 3 / Swordsage 2 / Rogue 3 or some such combination are strong builds. (Feel free to mix in some Human Paragon, or more Factotum or Swordsage levels.)

But if you're going for a Swashbuckler-feeling character, Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler X is really perfectly serviceable. I personally would skip the Invisible Blade unless you can get the feat tax excused.

[Lateral]

Factotum/Swordsage with Able Learner oughta be good here.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Honestly, for a one shot... Id go with a rogue who wields a rapier and a buckler. In the buckler hand, he holds a wand (preferably of swift invisibility, costs 750 gp) straight rogue, maybe Assassin for some spells. max out Disable Device, stealth skills, and UMD. (especially UMD!)

Once you get improved Invisibility, then start buying TWF feats. As much as we all think the rest of our party wants to flank with us (because it is numerically advantageous for everyone involved) that isnt always the case. This way, if YOU have to move into a flanking position, that TWF feat you got isnt gonna be wasted.

TWF is kind of a trap sometimes, and I think low level rogues are a perfect example of that. Versatility is more often than not better than damage output.

[Essence_of_War]

I can't believe I missed Able-Learner, thanks for the heads up everyone!

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, the more I think about it, the more Invis Blade seems like a giant hole of two wasted feats. I'm going to inquire if the tax can be lifted, but right now I'm leaning towards either Rogue 6/Swordsage2, or Human Paragon 2/Swordsage 6.

Thanks again for the input!

Aside: Thanks for pointing that out Dev, typo, should have been invis blade 2 :smallsmile:

[Waker]

Invisible Blade is fun, but I like Streetfighter from CAd more. The feat requirements are far more bearable.

[Essence_of_War]

Duncan,

I initially didn't think your idea worked since I thought using a wand was a std action all of the time, but I just checked my Rules Compendium and evidently this was updated so it uses the spell casting time! This is delightful! :smallbiggrin:

I think I may even go that route, it is certainly clean.

[teslas]

This is a kind of long thread, but it's allegedly with the creator of the Invisible Blade class himself.

http://media.dandwiki.com/w/images/3/39/Whats_up_with_Invisible_blade_req._feats_-Archive-_-_Wizards_Community.pdf

He suggest that since the Master Thrower aspect was removed from IB, the ranged feats be removed, and instead:
1. Weapon Focus: Dagger, Punching Dagger, or Kukri
2. Weapon Finesse
should be the new required feats. All other requirements such as the fluff and skills remain the same. As a DM, since this is basically only a one feat requirement (everyone already gets weapon finesse), I might also require they take the Dodge feat.

If you can talk your DM into allowing this, and with him giving you a ridiculous amount of feats anyway, one level of Invisible Blade is very good. Full BAB, and a "free" 1d6 sneak attack.

If you're looking for other ways to optimize your build for just damage, and not so much super-intensive for skill points, taking one level of the fighter thug variant is pretty good. You can also go into nightsong enforcer if you took improved initiative (with that many feats, why not?).

All three of those will net you 3 levels of full BAB and 3d6 sneak attack damage. Pretty non-shabby.

If you're starting at low levels, taking swordsage at level 2 can be quite fun. You can then take it again at level 7 for the 2d6 sneak attack stance. Taking the second level gives you wisdom to your AC and a BAB so it's still a strong choice. Even if you start with that 12 in your wisdom, a +2 or +4 item is cheap down the line and why would you complain about free AC?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) from UA is a pretty good alternative to the PHB Rogue, especially if you get Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a).

Martial Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) is another alternative which many consider to be much stronger than the standard Rogue. Sneak Attack is a very unreliable source of damage, whereas extra feats make the character highly customizable. I'd recommend Martial Rogue 4/ Swordsage 4 for this game, or maybe something completely different like a Beguiler.

You could even go Human Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 3, with Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, any metamagic feat, and Versatile Spellcaster, and you'll have 7th level Wizard spellcasting and still be able to get all the Rogue skills. With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any 1st or 2nd level Wizard spell you know, which is good for situational spells that you normally don't have prepared.

[teslas]

I am not used to games with your DMs gratuitous stat or feat allotment, so this might not be the best build, but I dug this up from my old character plans and then modified it since you'll get feats more quickly.

It royally sucks at first and second levels, hits its peak mid levels.

1: Rogue 1
Skill points galore.
2: Swordsage 1
Maneuvers, +1 init, quasi-weapon focus (not sure if this qualifies for IB Prc)
3: Swashbuckler 1
Weapon Finesse
4: Swashbuckler 2
5: Fighter 1
(thug variant, also with other UA variant for 4 skill points)
6: Swashbuckler 3
**** just got real
7: Swordsage 2
5d6 sneak attack damage in stance, WIS to AC
8: Rogue 2
6d6 sneak attack, you get your second attack from BAB

From here you can do rogue for penetrating strike, uncanny dodge, and skill points if you want them, or keep on doing stuff for more sneak attack dice, like invisible blade and nightsong dips. Taking two levels of the Fighter (thug) is as good or better than 2nd and 3rd levels of IB or nightsong, and it can rid you of any XP penalties if your DM enforces those.

You'll be doing all of these things by 20, and you'll end up with a bajillion sneak attack dice, easily 12d6 by 20, and 14d6 is possible with assassin/avenger PrCs while possibly still gaining your 4th attack at level 20.

Taking Swordsage again, or even twice again, at levels 18-20 can be great. You'll get some high initiator level maneuvers, maybe retrain some old ones, and you gain BAB for levels 3 and 4.

You end up with DEX and WIS to AC.
You end up with STR, DEX, and INT to damage.

You won't be as "powerful" as a straight swordsage, but your full-round attacks will hit like trucks while flanking, even if they are normally immune to precision damage.

Feats:
1 Human: Able Learner
1: Improved Initiative
2 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse
3: *
5: Shadow Blade
7: Daring Outlaw
9: TWF
11: I-TWF
13: G-TWF
The last three feats you can use to improve your survivability. Improved Toughness isn't horrible when taken at high levels. Depending on your choice of classes, you may not be able to get Greater TWF at 13 since it requires BAB 11.

* Up to you. You said you need to have high disable device. Skill Focus: Disable Device is always an option. You can take TWF here as well.

[BenInHB]

What about Rogue2/Swash5/Assassin1

To maximize benefits take them in order
1Rogue (to maximize skill points)
2Swash (since you get max HP on these levels)
3Swash
4Swash (Int to damage)
5Rogue (Evasion)
6Assassin (Take Daring Outlaw and you'll be doing 4d6 sneak attack. That's better than straight Rogue plus you get spells and poison use)
7Swash
8Swash

So at level 8 you'll have BaB of +7 (or +6 if you don't use fractional BaB) 5d6 Sneak Attack, 47HP without CON bonus yet (assuming max HD 1-3 and remaining HD averaged) Spells, Poison Use, a Death Attack and INT to Damage

Focus on Dex and Int

Feats wise i would go for
Human: TWF
1st: Education or Able Learner
3rd: Knowledge Devotion (a great feat for high INT two weapon fighters)
5th:Quick Draw
7th: Daring Outlaw

You have tons of skill points from Rogue, Human and High INT, so go to town.

Skill Points: 75 + (Int x 11)

You will want at least 1 point in every Knowledge skill and probably at least 5 ranks in the major ones like Arcana, Local, Dungeoneering, Nature, The Planes etc... your high INT boosts these scores up there and without at least 1 rank the highest you can get is a 10. Also Knowledge Devotion only works on creature you have at least one rank of the corresponding knowledge to. Putting at least 5 ranks in the major ones gives some nice synergy bonuses to other skills and also help you get a better bonus to attack and damage from Knowledge Devotion.

Max out your Rogue stuff. Open lock, Disable Device, Search, Hide, Move Silently, Slight of Hand...

Bluff and Diplomacy are always out of combat staples.

UMD is slightly less important since you have a level in Assassin and can use wands off those spell lists without a chance of failure and have access to Eternal Wands as an arcane caster (Eternal Wand of Nerve Skitter is always nice to have in hand for +5 to Initiative 2/day)

Tumble, Jump, Balance all have Synergy with each other. With 5 ranks in each and a high DEX score you should be fine. I like to pump tumble so i can move freely without worry around the battlefield.

Your INT is High so a couple ranks in Craft:Poison will let you brew up some nasty stuff and when you make your own it is dirt cheap too. Even better max out Craft: Alchemy, you can use it you craft poisons with a -4 to your check but it also lets you make all kinds of cool other items. Just use scrolls or wands if you don't have the right spell needed or get another caster to help.

For fun i would (if you took able learner) max Iaijutsu Focus. But that may or may not be a little cheesy for your game.

You should still have plenty left over for some nice skill tricks too. I like Hidden Blade and Sudden Draw. Nimble Charge, Nimble Stand and Twisted Charge can also be handy as well as Collector of Stories (depending on how you DM lets it interact with Knowledge Devotion)

[teslas]

What about Rogue2/Swash5/Assassin1

To maximize benefits take them in order
1Rogue (to maximize skill points)
2Swash (since you get max HP on these levels)

I missed that part. For my suggestion, take Swashbuckler for 2nd and 3rd levels for the same reason.