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View Full Version : Houserule check - no arcane/divine distinction



WarKitty
2011-01-06, 06:27 PM
I'm debating putting in a houserule to this effect. Arcane and divine spells work the same way. Fluff-wise, reality is shaped by belief. Deities are sort of concentrations of belief energy. Clerics take the belief energy and transfer it back into magical energy. Wizards use rituals to enhance and focus their own personal energy. Druids tap into the surrounding energy of nature and focus it by their belief. Sorcerers use their own personal force and willpower. You get the idea.

Crunch wise, all classes suffer from spell failure rate. Half-casting classes such as the ranger and paladin get this eliminated as a class ability. The cleric doesn't get anything, he doesn't need it. The druid gets turned into a half-casting class, and also gets spell failure eliminated. For those who want a caster druid, it gets turned into a cleric variant.

Not sure what to do with spellbooks and such. Overall ideas, and spellbook solutions specifically? I sort of like the idea of having limited spells on the full casting classes, but not sure how to do it.

Rixx
2011-01-06, 07:35 PM
If the druid uses the same spell progression as the ranger and paladin, it's more or less going to be entirely useless for the first three levels. Perhaps use bard-level "3/4" casting instead.

WarKitty
2011-01-06, 11:56 PM
If the druid uses the same spell progression as the ranger and paladin, it's more or less going to be entirely useless for the first three levels. Perhaps use bard-level "3/4" casting instead.

Maybe. If I did that I'd want to restrict the spells. Maybe just up the hit die, give it full BAB, and provide a natural attack?

Rixx
2011-01-07, 12:00 AM
If you're going to do that, I'd just replace the Druid entirely with the Wildshape Ranger or the Shapeshifter archetype from the Pathfinder APG.

DabblerWizard
2011-01-08, 07:58 PM
I'm interested in the way you're deciding to conceptualize the metaphysics of magic, in-game, WarKitty, so I've listed some questions that might help both of us understand what you're getting at.

Let me see if I understand your reasoning. Access to magic is shaped by the particular beliefs taken on by a given spell-caster.

Clerics believe in the power of deities (who are power warehouses in themselves) and because of this belief, they are given access to that power? Are you saying druids function in a similar way, except that they believe in the power of nature? Is "nature" magic different than "deity" magic?

If you suggest that wizards do something with their own personal energy as the basis of their power, are you also saying that everyone else has personal energy they could harness if they had the cognitive faculties?

What does it mean for sorcerers to depend on their willpower, in terms of gaining magical powers? How does this relate to the idea that belief brings about magic?

WarKitty
2011-01-08, 08:46 PM
I hadn't thought out druids that much, mostly because none of my players want to be one. Will work on that.

Regarding wizards and sorcs: I think I'm changing it a bit from the way I put in the OP. There's sort of an ambient sense of magic or belief energy around. Everyone has a bit of this energy in them, and theoretically could learn to use it. Most people don't. Usually it requires significant work to do so. There are various ways to amplify this energy. Wizards use rituals.

Sorcs are in some ways more in tune with the actual mystic energy. This is why they can cast spontaneously. However this means it's a lot harder to learn to do specific things, sort of like having to carve out specific internal channels for the energy.

This also has implications for other classes. If you really master your sword, you can learn to use it to slice through solid rock. A dedicated climber can learn to balance on a hair, even if the laws of physics wouldn't allow it. They are doing the same thing a wizard does, but in a more limited sense.

(That last bit is actually where the idea originated. Fluff justification for letting the non-caster break the laws of physics.)

Pechvarry
2011-01-08, 09:02 PM
Not that it matters (since none of your players will use Druid anyway), but an easy way I've been wanting to implement is simple: delete Druid class. If you want wildshape, be a wildshape ranger (my wildshape ranger uses shapeshift variant instead, though). If you want Druid casting, be a Spirit Shaman. Feel free to throw on the non-important druid class features onto Spirit Shaman to help give them more druid flavor.

With that out of the way, I think your changes work well. Divine casters can live through Spell Failure, classes who will suffer can receive class features for it, and you have an excellent justification for superheroic melee.

+1

Elric VIII
2011-01-08, 10:32 PM
Perhaps to allow a Wizard his flexibility compared to a Sorcerer, but still impose a limit on his spells, you could implement a spell exchange system. For instance, make the spellbook more like an object form of a familiar, to justify the Wizard's connection to only one spellbook, and limit the total spell levels that he may have contained within (although this should be more than the starting spellbook in order to accomodate for the fact that you cannot just buy more pages). Allow the Wizard to learn new spells by allowing the personal energy that he channels into his spellbook to shift, essentially gve him his 2 spells per level, but only let him learn spells form scrolls if he forgets older spells.

For example, Joe the Wizard has a spellbook with 10 pages in it, filled with three 1st level spells, one 2nd level spell, one 3rd level spell, and two blank pages. If he wants to learn a 4th level spell from a scroll, he follows the normal procedure, but he must lose two 1st level spells or one 2nd level spell from his spell list in order to learn the 4th level spell.

I hope this is to what you were refering when you wanted to know how to handle spellbooks.

Urpriest
2011-01-08, 10:40 PM
If you're eliminating the Arcane/Divine distinction, the first thing I would worry about is Divine Metamagic. Do you anticipate that being a problem?

Psyren
2011-01-08, 10:47 PM
The cleric doesn't get anything, he doesn't need it.

At low levels, you'd better believe he does. Their spell list was built on the assumption that they can wear a shield and chain mail, and wade into melee after buffing up. They don't get mage armor or mirror image or ranged spells to toss into the fray save through domains, and those are a piddly 1/spell level/day. Even druids would suffer with ASF until they got wild shape, and their list is much more blasty/protecty to begin with. (Barkskin alone puts them in better shape than a naked cleric.)

How do Psionics work, assuming they even exist?

WarKitty
2011-01-08, 11:17 PM
Ok lots of stuff here.

For spellbooks, I'm thinking of taking a page out of the PF witch class and making the familiar the thing that stores spells. Gives them a reason to keep the little critters around.

I have a doubt anyone's going to try divine metamagic. How broken is it if you eliminate nightsticks?

I'll take a look at the cleric. Not urgent since this is a higher level campaign. Druid, it sounds like splitting with spirit shaman and wildshape ranger would work nicely.

Psionics...I need to put a little more thought into this. They exist but are not usable by the PC's. Should be able to get away with not giving psionics a spell failure rate, the only things that can use it are aberrations and certain outsiders.

Urpriest
2011-01-08, 11:29 PM
Even without nightsticks, a character can get one or two buffs up all day with a dip in Sacred Exorcist. There are a few good arcane ones that you usually have to be something more obnoxious (an Incantatrix for example) to persist. Isn't Shapechange persistable?

WarKitty
2011-01-08, 11:43 PM
Even without nightsticks, a character can get one or two buffs up all day with a dip in Sacred Exorcist. There are a few good arcane ones that you usually have to be something more obnoxious (an Incantatrix for example) to persist. Isn't Shapechange persistable?

Point. I have no idea how to work this with normal classes. My world has custom classes with individual approval, I forgot that would be relevant.

Sarakos
2011-01-08, 11:49 PM
Your fluff sounds reminiscent of this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html

On a slghtly more related note. Why are removing the distinctions between arcane and divine spellcasting? Is it to nerf T1 classes or is it setting/story specific? If it's to nerf the T1's then what about wizards and sorcerers?

Also, which edition, in most of your previous threads I noticed your group has been playing Pathfinder but most of these suggestions sound like this is a 3.5 campaign or your using a lot of material updated to Pathfinder

Edited to be easier to read: I also saw you did something with the Pathfinder witch class. I forgot how the storing spells in familiars worked for witches I'm away from my books atm with only acess to pathfinder core thanks to an app on my iPhone

Vemynal
2011-01-08, 11:57 PM
I usually lump Arcane, Divine and Psionic magics together as "separate ways to use magic". Like different branches of a tree, they all stem out from the 'trunk' (magic)

so....... Magic
........./...|...\
Arcane Divine Psionic

Arcane magic draws magic out from the surroundings, whether from study or from an innate gift/ability to draw magic from your surroundings.

Psionic magic draws magic out of ones "self". As living beings we have magic within us that we can all learn to draw upon.

Divine gets more tricky... Basically divine casters draw upon pure magic but its filtered through their god. I ruled that the gods of the world figured out how to make themselves into gods (ie they used to be mortals, a la the Tribunal from the Morrowind Elder Scrolls game). Since these gods are tapped into 'pure magic' power, unfiltered by arcane or psionic means they are able to grant power to others in the form of Divine Magic.

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 09:50 AM
Your fluff sounds reminiscent of this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html

On a slghtly more related note. Why are removing the distinctions between arcane and divine spellcasting? Is it to nerf T1 classes or is it setting/story specific? If it's to nerf the T1's then what about wizards and sorcerers?

Also, which edition, in most of your previous threads I noticed your group has been playing Pathfinder but most of these suggestions sound like this is a 3.5 campaign or your using a lot of material updated to Pathfinder

Edited to be easier to read: I also saw you did something with the Pathfinder witch class. I forgot how the storing spells in familiars worked for witches I'm away from my books atm with only acess to pathfinder core thanks to an app on my iPhone

It's a 3.5 campaign that's being updated to pathfinder. 3.5 splat is still in play. Yes, Banjo may have been a bit of an inspiration.

The original purpose was actually to create a world where all higher-level characters could develop physics-breaking powers. One of my pet frustrations with most of the attempts to balance the classes is it ends up bringing the caster down to the melee's level. I get bored at that level. This provides an in-universe justification for why your high-level barbarian can, say, get haste as a spell-like ability.

The other reason is because my plot premise requires something more powerful than the gods, that they do not fully understand. But something that a sufficiently determined set of mortals can figure out and bind. This required a rather severe nerf of the deities themselves.


I usually lump Arcane, Divine and Psionic magics together as "separate ways to use magic". Like different branches of a tree, they all stem out from the 'trunk' (magic)

so....... Magic
........./...|...\
Arcane Divine Psionic

Arcane magic draws magic out from the surroundings, whether from study or from an innate gift/ability to draw magic from your surroundings.

Psionic magic draws magic out of ones "self". As living beings we have magic within us that we can all learn to draw upon.

Divine gets more tricky... Basically divine casters draw upon pure magic but its filtered through their god. I ruled that the gods of the world figured out how to make themselves into gods (ie they used to be mortals, a la the Tribunal from the Morrowind Elder Scrolls game). Since these gods are tapped into 'pure magic' power, unfiltered by arcane or psionic means they are able to grant power to others in the form of Divine Magic.

Not bad, I'll take some of the ideas into consideration. Have to play with psionics a bit more though, it's supposed to be alien magic in this setting.

Sarakos
2011-01-09, 02:11 PM
The original purpose was actually to create a world where all higher-level characters could develop physics-breaking powers. One of my pet frustrations with most of the attempts to balance the classes is it ends up bringing the caster down to the melee's level. I get bored at that level. This provides an in-universe justification for why your high-level barbarian can, say, get haste as a spell-like ability.

That's petty cool actually. How would someone gain these spell-like abilities and is there a limit to how many they can have and/or how often they can be used?

Sorry, I've only been asking questions and not really giving helpful advice to your own problems. I'm just interested in this concept since my group usually is all T1 caster and I simply enjoy playing the B.S.F more than a world shattering class. This could be a fun way to raise myself to their level so I dot have to retire characters after level 10 and roll a caster to contribute

Pechvarry
2011-01-09, 02:47 PM
We've used similar justifications before (our norm is simply "magic is everywhere and infused with everything, so everyone can find ways to tap into it to stretch/break physics), but I wanna say I think your way is quite genius. Namely, it seems like sorcerer is the "missing link" between mages and why your melee are super.

Vemynal
2011-01-09, 03:47 PM
by alien how do you mean?

As in *only* those aliens are able to use this magic?

or

Psionic magic is like alien technology, we simply haven't thought up/developed the technology to use it yet

because the first you'd have to refluff things, but the later example could simply be that the normal world hasn't developed a way to 'draw magic from within ones self' just yet as they've been focusing on divine and arcane magic (for extra fluff maybe the aliens haven't explored the divine or arcane branch of magic?)

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 04:04 PM
That's petty cool actually. How would someone gain these spell-like abilities and is there a limit to how many they can have and/or how often they can be used?

Sorry, I've only been asking questions and not really giving helpful advice to your own problems. I'm just interested in this concept since my group usually is all T1 caster and I simply enjoy playing the B.S.F more than a world shattering class. This could be a fun way to raise myself to their level so I dot have to retire characters after level 10 and roll a caster to contribute

It's decided on a case-by-case basis; really we just add it in to the standard class and pretend it was always there. So the barbarian gets the ability to act as if under a haste spell while raging. I think fighters start getting more "focus on me" abilities, along with increased uses of skills like intimidate (and the points for them).


by alien how do you mean?

As in *only* those aliens are able to use this magic?

or

Psionic magic is like alien technology, we simply haven't thought up/developed the technology to use it yet

because the first you'd have to refluff things, but the later example could simply be that the normal world hasn't developed a way to 'draw magic from within ones self' just yet as they've been focusing on divine and arcane magic (for extra fluff maybe the aliens haven't explored the divine or arcane branch of magic?)

First one. In D&D terms, these aliens are primarily aberrations from the Chaos plane (no alignment in the game, the chaos plane is nothing to do with chaos the alignment). It's an ability that the aliens just don't have. Note that their plane doesn't have the ambient magic either, so they don't know how to use magic.

Vemynal
2011-01-09, 04:12 PM
hah! perfect! sorry but your 'ambient magic' comment gave me an idea.

originally when I first introduce the concept of 'psionic magic' to my world I had strict fluff requirements for my players:

Some areas of the world were "dead zones" where ambient magic didn't exist (so arcane magic was useless in the area).

Characters born in these dead zones (I had a couple cities stationed in these spots) couldn't use arcane magic powers. But as everyone needed some sort of connection to the magical ether I ruled that these players who were born in these zones would draw magic 'through themselves' rather then form their surroundings.

I later retconned it by saying that people who could tap into psionic powers could pass this trait down to their children (silly I know, but I wanted to remove that bit of fluff without hand waving it) but it sounds to me like you could use this in your game:

The normal world has ambient magic that can be used for arcane means and this is their connection to 'magic'

The aliens stem from a realm without ambient magic and so developed the ability to draw magic from themselves.

as to why no overlap: the normal worlds people simply didn't evolve/develop with the ability to draw magic power from within themselves. Just as the aliens dont have the ability to draw magic from their surroundings

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 04:22 PM
hah! perfect! sorry but your 'ambient magic' comment gave me an idea.

originally when I first introduce the concept of 'psionic magic' to my world I had strict fluff requirements for my players:

Some areas of the world were "dead zones" where ambient magic didn't exist (so arcane magic was useless in the area).

Characters born in these dead zones (I had a couple cities stationed in these spots) couldn't use arcane magic powers. But as everyone needed some sort of connection to the magical ether I ruled that these players who were born in these zones would draw magic 'through themselves' rather then form their surroundings.

I later retconned it by saying that people who could tap into psionic powers could pass this trait down to their children (silly I know, but I wanted to remove that bit of fluff without hand waving it) but it sounds to me like you could use this in your game:

The normal world has ambient magic that can be used for arcane means and this is their connection to 'magic'

The aliens stem from a realm without ambient magic and so developed the ability to draw magic from themselves.

as to why no overlap: the normal worlds people simply didn't evolve/develop with the ability to draw magic power from within themselves. Just as the aliens dont have the ability to draw magic from their surroundings

Not bad. Plus they have *some* similarities, but not too much. The idea was, this great catastrophic planar conjunction occurs, all of a sudden there are these strange and terrifying alien beasts like mind flayers and aboleths out there using something no one's ever heard of. Have fun, heroes. Also, my metagamers haven't read the psionic handbooks.

Urpriest
2011-01-09, 05:44 PM
Not bad. Plus they have *some* similarities, but not too much. The idea was, this great catastrophic planar conjunction occurs, all of a sudden there are these strange and terrifying alien beasts like mind flayers and aboleths out there using something no one's ever heard of. Have fun, heroes. Also, my metagamers haven't read the psionic handbooks.

Plus this can explain things like Overchannel. A psionic creature could be literally converting its body and mind into magic in order to manifest, and Overchannel just does it past the natural rate of healing.

Vemynal
2011-01-09, 05:58 PM
Hurray, I helped =D