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View Full Version : [3.5] Decent Gestalt Combinations please.



fortesama
2011-01-06, 07:09 PM
Our group has a new DM this time and he's planning to run a gestalt game this time. The following relevant house rules have been placed for such a game:

* Both halves may not be a "caster". Casters would include anything with an actual spell list, an invocation list, infusion list, psionics list and similar. A caster with a Paladin or Ranger half is required to use their non-spellcasting variants.
* Tome of Battle characters may not have a caster as the other half.
* No 3.0 material, all 3.5 and Dragon material is fine. Homebrew approved on case-to-case basis.
* No pathfinder (?!).
* No prestige classes.
* Whether Factotum is a valid half for a caster or not is still up to debate.

There are other house rules but they're more for etiquette and is irrelevant in actual gameplay.

Anyway with those in place, and assuming Factotum is not a valid half for a caster or ToB character, what would be some strong combinations. I'm thinking Erudite//Monk with the feat that shifts monk stuff to Int.

Edit: Factotum has been classified as a noncaster. Also, no magic marts and opportunities to learn extra spells will be rare which makes running erudite problematic. I'm switching to a Grey Elf elven generalist substitution level wizard//factotum with both collegiate wizard and aerenal arcanist too if no one else picked up an arcanist or skill monkey. I'm also conflicted on what skills to pick up. Maybe max out concentration, take quite a few knowledge skills and knowledge devotion?

Mystic Muse
2011-01-06, 07:12 PM
What kind of character do you want to play? Is there a concept you can give us to work with?

Gnorman
2011-01-06, 07:12 PM
Wildshape Ranger // Wizard, perhaps? Ranger shores up a lot of weaknesses of the Wizard (giving it Fort, Reflex, more skills, more HP), while Natural Spell could allow you to be an arcane beast - literally.

fortesama
2011-01-06, 07:34 PM
What kind of character do you want to play? Is there a concept you can give us to work with?

I was thinking of a kind of a scholarly warrior whose skill in battle is second only to his education and intelligence. I thought that an Illumian (Aeshkrau) Warblade//Archivist would do that until i found out that mixing Warblade and Archivist is a no-no.

As for my party role, i tend to prefer being a buffer and disabler of some sort so my class selections before tended to gravitate towards beguiler, wizard, cleric, bard, or sorcerer though i did experiment with a warlock once... and stuck a rainbow servant on a warmage at one point.

Lans
2011-01-06, 07:38 PM
Incarnate and Totemist combine well with most classes. Incarnate/Crusader is very nice.

Aracor
2011-01-06, 07:44 PM
Druid/Rogue. You'll have all good saves, plenty of skill points, and you always have a flanking buddy with your animal companion. Flanking pouncing animal forms with a bunch of attacks + full rogue sneak attack damage.

Plus, you're still a druid.

Gralamin
2011-01-06, 08:00 PM
I was thinking of a kind of a scholarly warrior whose skill in battle is second only to his education and intelligence. I thought that an Illumian (Aeshkrau) Warblade//Archivist would do that until i found out that mixing Warblade and Archivist is a no-no.

As for my party role, i tend to prefer being a buffer and disabler of some sort so my class selections before tended to gravitate towards beguiler, wizard, cleric, bard, or sorcerer though i did experiment with a warlock once... and stuck a rainbow servant on a warmage at one point.

Here's the trick with Gestalt: Generally actions are your disadvantage, so piling on two action intensive classes, such as Warblade and Archivist is weaker then you would think. It is better to choose one class to be your "Active class" (Such as Warblade) and one to be your "Passive class" (Such as Monk or Incarnate or Factotum). Active class candidates are generally ones with lots of actions. Passive are those that give abilities with few action requirements.

A good thing to keep in mind for Incarnum classes: If you choose not to use them as an active class, then you rarely need their DC boosting stat. In some cases, such as Incarnate, this essentially makes them "statless" for the purpose of adding them on.

gbprime
2011-01-06, 08:46 PM
Indeed. Warblade/Monk or even just Fighter/Monk is a powerful enough combination, as you end up with all the monk fu plus full BAB and all those feats or manuvers.

And if you want to mix two 3/4 BAB classes, just make sure to give one of them a level in fighter or other full BAB first. That way you'll always have 1 of your classes add to BAB every level since the dead BAB level in each is offset by 1 level now.

Gralamin
2011-01-06, 08:50 PM
And if you want to mix two 3/4 BAB classes, just make sure to give one of them a level in fighter or other full BAB first. That way you'll always have 1 of your classes add to BAB every level since the dead BAB level in each is offset by 1 level now.

This sort of argument is why everyone should use fractional BAB. I don't think the rules work this way, but there is not enough there to say it doesn't either. Fractional BAB clear it right up (Both sides add +0.75 each level. Thus it doesn't change anything and works like it should).

Fouredged Sword
2011-01-06, 08:52 PM
Spellthief 2 / (some sneak attack class) // Wizard or some arcane spellcaster. Take master spellthief and be a awsome wizard // skill monkey. Flavor with Prc's of your choice.

Open up complete scoundral and look at some of the feats that mix scout, monk, rogue, and ninja with other classes. You can get absurd sneak attack damage with it.

Saint GoH
2011-01-06, 08:52 PM
Personal gestalt favorite is Swordsage//Fighter. I generally play feat intensive builds so the bonus feats are nice, and Big HD and all good saves are nice as well.

Another fun choice is Barbarian//Bard. Buffing goodies and swinging around a greataxe!

Greenish
2011-01-06, 08:53 PM
Here's the trick with Gestalt: Generally actions are your disadvantage, so piling on two action intensive classes, such as Warblade and Archivist is weaker then you would think. It is better to choose one class to be your "Active class" (Such as Warblade) and one to be your "Passive class" (Such as Monk or Incarnate or Factotum). Active class candidates are generally ones with lots of actions. Passive are those that give abilities with few action requirements.Archivist to buff up, warblade for dynamo.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-06, 09:07 PM
If you can pull it, full Factotum with Warblade/Wizard/Erudite and whatever full casting/initiating prc suits your fancy, is deadly. The action abuse with Factotum is simply too good to pass up, and it also makes you a very adaptable skill monkey on top of being very effective in combat.

If not, like others said, monk/full caster is good, so is ubercharging build/CoDzilla, and, depending on the optimization level, Planar Shepard/anything.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-06, 09:09 PM
I was thinking of a kind of a scholarly warrior whose skill in battle is second only to his education and intelligence. I thought that an Illumian (Aeshkrau) Warblade//Archivist would do that until i found out that mixing Warblade and Archivist is a no-no.

As for my party role, i tend to prefer being a buffer and disabler of some sort so my class selections before tended to gravitate towards beguiler, wizard, cleric, bard, or sorcerer though i did experiment with a warlock once... and stuck a rainbow servant on a warmage at one point.
There's any number of routes to go.

For long-term character power, you'll want a full caster (or equivalent) on one side.

Your DM's saying 'full caster on one side only' is actually a good thing, really. See, the action economy makes a dual-full-caster rather lackluster anyway.

A Psion//Monk (with Carmindine Monk from Champions of Valor, page 28 - Faerun Specific, or Kung-Fu Genius from Dragon Magazine) is rather effective, and kinda fits the Warrior//Scholar reasonably well. Passive Monk defenses and skill list, Psion direct-offense, fully Int-Based. Vow of Poverty would also fit thematically, and would make you rather hard to disarm.

Psyren
2011-01-06, 09:33 PM
No Pathfinder? Damn I was going to suggest Pathfinder Pally/Wilder.

Can't go wrong with Monk//Ardent I say, especially with Dominant Ideal later.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-06, 09:42 PM
No Pathfinder? Damn I was going to suggest Pathfinder Pally/Wilder.

Can't go wrong with Monk//Ardent I say, especially with Dominant Ideal later.

Pathfinder Pally/Wilder is decent, but the Cha synergy isn't really beneficial, and Wilder aren't exactly great at buffing, so you could probably get better synergy (like Sorc/whatever PrC you like//PF pally, which gets you all the good buffs).

SamsDisciple
2011-01-06, 09:46 PM
You can also think of whatever fun multiclass you wanted to do and slap em together. Not as elegant sure but for your specific request of a scholarly warrior it is really hamperead by no prestige classes. I would modify an earlier post and throw in divine to the mix with a cloistered cleric//monk though the famous sorcadin really shines in Gestalt (even more so with lovely pathfinder but oh well)

Psyren
2011-01-06, 09:58 PM
Pathfinder Pally/Wilder is decent, but the Cha synergy isn't really beneficial, and Wilder aren't exactly great at buffing, so you could probably get better synergy (like Sorc/whatever PrC you like//PF pally, which gets you all the good buffs).

Cha to touch AC and all saves, not really beneficial?
Sorcerer has its benefits, but you can't exactly wear mountain plate and a tower shield with them.

Waker
2011-01-06, 10:06 PM
A scholarly warrior who excels at buffing and debuffing eh? I imagine that certain class combinations will be suggested many times, so I'll focus on the more unusual ones.

Dread Necromancer/Swashbuckler: There are a number of skills that work well with each other. Your weapon finesse can be applied to your touch attacks, the dodge bonus combined with damage reduction/fortification can make you a bit more of a survivor and when you get your familiar it can always provide you the benefit of your improved flanking.

Hexblade/Ranger variant: Snag the Dark Companion variant for the Hexblade in PHII to provide a no-save debuff to enemies. Having Evasion and Mettle, plus the best save progression and Arcane Resistance will keep you safe from pretty much any spells.

Marshal/Sorcerer: All of your minor auras are based off of Charisma and activating them only takes a swift action. With good spell choices, you could be pretty dangerous on the battlefield.

Dragon Shaman/Wizard or Sorcerer: More auras to buff the party, the fun powers of a dragon and you can still toss around all the fun spells.

Essence_of_War
2011-01-06, 10:16 PM
Warblade//Factotum or Warblade//Rogue or Warblade//Psion are super fun and very powerful and have awesome int synergies.

Look out especially for the Factotum or Psion since they have PLENTY of ways to break action economy!

As someone else mentioned, SS//Fighter is rock solid also!!

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-06, 10:52 PM
Whoops, I was going to second Warblade//Factotum until I saw the blurb at the bottom of the OP.

Instead I'm going to ask: how does your DM deal with multiclassing and LA/RHD in gestalt?

Draz74
2011-01-06, 11:07 PM
Druid/Rogue. You'll have all good saves, plenty of skill points, and you always have a flanking buddy with your animal companion. Flanking pouncing animal forms with a bunch of attacks + full rogue sneak attack damage.

Plus, you're still a druid.

I was going to suggest Druid//Ninja. Similar idea, but with more Wisdom synergy, and the satisfaction that you're taking a really terrible class and making it work well. The two classes really are amazingly complimentary. (Less skill points and flanking abilities than the Rogue suggestion, but ... Druid. No worries about overall power.)

Also, Bard (/Sublime Chord) with any sort of good-BAB, good-Fort melee build is pretty strong. Perhaps non-casting-variant Paladin (of Freedom?) for Charisma synergy.

fortesama
2011-01-07, 09:48 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions. Factotum has been classified as non-caster. Due to loot restrictions, i'm switching to wizard//factotum with all the spells known expansion stuff. maybe taking the eidetic spellcaster ACF from dragon since i'm a tad paranoid. on a side note, what are some ways to get mindsight on player characters. Looks like a friend of mine would be co-gming and has a thing for getting us ambushed despite a roll of 40 on a spot/listen check.

Psyren
2011-01-07, 09:53 AM
If you're paranoid, you can't beat Psion//Factotum or Erudite//Factotum. No spellbook or component pouch to worry about, and holy actions batman.

Re'ozul
2011-01-07, 10:02 AM
I have little experience with these things, but I'd probably go for an eldritch glaive-centric warlock//rogue.

Duke of URL
2011-01-07, 10:08 AM
what are some ways to get mindsight on player characters

Mindbender 1 and the Mindsight feat. There really is no better way. Mindbender has generally easy entry requirements (the skills could be problematic for INT-starved builds) and you don't even lose a caster level.

Psyren
2011-01-07, 10:09 AM
Mindbender 1 and the Mindsight feat. There really is no better way. Mindbender has generally easy entry requirements (the skills could be problematic for INT-starved builds) and you don't even lose a caster level.

Telepath 5 can also get it without losing ML

VonDoom
2011-01-07, 11:27 AM
Monk is always a good thing to combine with non-armored classes such as the Wizard or Sorcerer, in my opinion.

Monk/Cleric or Monk/Druid is a pretty winsome combination due to the Wisdom synergy. A Zen Archer Monk/Druid could be pretty damn awesome -- I'd concentrate on spellcasting over shapechange in this case. The Animal Companion is perfect for keeping enemies at bay, too. One of your best tactics would probably be to entangle your foes and shoot them dead, yo.

This works even better with the Pathfinder monk Zen Archer variant, rather than just using the 3.5 Zen Archer feat. Those guys can Flurry with a longbow.

Aracor
2011-01-07, 11:30 AM
what are some ways to get mindsight on player characters.Without prestige classes available, I think the only way is the telepath ACF.

Draz74
2011-01-07, 12:13 PM
Without prestige classes available, I think the only way is the telepath ACF.

... which is fine, because Telepath is already a fabulous option to combo with Factotum. :smallbiggrin:

I do think there are actually other ways. Isn't there some Planar race that gets racial telepathy?